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Unraced non-F1 cars & engines


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#1 Megatron

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:25

I saw in an interview with Ross Brawn the other day where he stated that at Benetton's request, Ford had a V12 produced in the early 90s, but it never raced and Cosworth stuck with the V8. Of course, this isn't the only engine never to turn a competitive lap, as BMW built both a car and engine around the same time, but never raced (though the car was revamped slightly and raced as Andrea Moda).

Others I can think of would be:

Climax V16
Life W12 (yes I know they entered a handful of races but I don't consider that runing considering it didn't actually run much).
I think Matra had plans to produce a V6 turbo
The Lola V10 that was supposed to race sometime in 1997

Can anyone think of any others?

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#2 Marcel Schot

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:40

1992 Andrea Moda-Judd : 16 entries, 2 NQs, 13 NPQ's and 1 engine failure after 11 laps of Monaco

Wouldn't want to call that racing :)

1990 Coloni-Subaru : 8 entries, 8 NPQs

#3 Frank de Jong

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:48

From the top of my head:
The Alfa 4 turbo for Ligier
The Heidegger 6 inline turbo
Ferrari's 2 cilinder 2500 cc engine of the 50's (intended for Monaco)
Guy Negre's W12

#4 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 10:55

A few more apart from the already mentioned can be found here :

http://8w.forix.com/engfail.html

#5 BRG

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 11:25

Going further back, there was the Weslake V12 that came to nothing in the early 70s.

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 15:09

And even further back, the Fiat 451 from the Twenties ... :)

#7 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 17:22

Did Ferrari ever build a turbo-four for trials during the '80s?
I remember it was at least rumoured at the time.

#8 dbw

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 18:18

porsche-cisitalia flat 12... [supercharged ,4 cam 1 1/2 liter as i recall]

#9 No27

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 19:42

Frank, I thought the Alfa V4 was a V8 Turbo.

The VW V10 Bernd Pischetsrieder found on a shelf when he joined VW.

Did the Zakspeed Turbo of the mid-eighties ever succeeded to qualify?

#10 Geza Sury

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 20:40

Of course, the Zakspeed Turbo competed regularly between 1986 and 1988. Martin Brundle even scored a point for Zakpeeed at Imola in 1987. (Team-mate Christian Danner finished seventh.) That would remain the only point finish for Zakspeed. It was the 1989 season when the Zakpeeed team had great difficulties making the grid. But by that time they switched to Yamaha V8 power.

#11 MattFoster

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Posted 09 January 2002 - 22:43

The still born Alfa turbo for Ligier in 1987 was indeed a 4 cylinder.

#12 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 06:38

Didn't the Russians want to build an F-1 engine but nothing materialized? I remember reading it on an issue of Road and Track in 93.

#13 GunStar

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 14:24

Reynolds Aluminum punched out a 8.0 Chevy V-8 to 9.2L for McLaren M-12 in the Can-Am series. Monstorous thing designed to take on the Porsche Panzers (917-10K). Near the end of the season. Qualified 2nd, and ate itself alive on the race grid. Next year, they didn't even bother.

Chevy twinplug Corvette GS engine for the 63 Nassau race. Don't even think I got all the facts for this one.

#14 dmj

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 14:52

When you talk about Panzers, Porsche produced a flat-16 engine, rumoured to produce around 1700 BHP, "just in case". But, of course, even "normal" Panzers were unbeatable so there was no need to actually race this monstruous engine.

#15 William Hunt

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 20:21

Originally posted by MattFoster
The still born Alfa turbo for Ligier in 1987 was indeed a 4 cylinder.


It was because of René Arnoux his stupid comments that it never actually raced in the Ligier.

#16 MattFoster

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 22:18

From memory the Alfa Turbo was then put in the middle of an Alfa Romeo 164 Silouette racer that Bernie was trying to get off the ground. From all accounts it was a but of a rocket. Unfortunately to my knowledge Alfa was the only car company that created a car for the new class and it didn't happen.

#17 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 22:23

The engine in the silhouette-164 was a 3.5litre V10.

#18 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 10 January 2002 - 22:28

And it looked like a gem too!!

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#19 MattFoster

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 00:29

Then that is another tragedy that it never raced. Would have been great in F1 too

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#20 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 07:52

Originally posted by William Hunt


It was because of René Arnoux his stupid comments that it never actually raced in the Ligier.


Well William, of course this is the "official" reason. The unofficial version: Fiat had taken over Alfa Romeo, but they already had an F1 program (Ferrari), so weren't very interested in competing against themselves.
The Alfa program was moved into other directions, which were not exactly successful (silhouette, 75 Turbo touring car, CART - need I say more?).

#21 mikedeering

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 09:47

Originally posted by MattFoster
From memory the Alfa Turbo was then put in the middle of an Alfa Romeo 164 Silouette racer that Bernie was trying to get off the ground. From all accounts it was a but of a rocket. Unfortunately to my knowledge Alfa was the only car company that created a car for the new class and it didn't happen.


Didn't Riccardo Patrese run practice laps with the 164 during the Italian GP weekend in 1988?

IIRC, it was pretty much as fast at the leading F1 cars down the straight (210mph) but poor Riccardo scared himself silly trying to handle such power through what amounted to a road car with a few mods, and was ashen faced when he got back to the pits

#22 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 10:01

IIRC the chassis was totally different from the 164 car; built by Brabham during its year of inactivity in F1, so probably F1-spec suspension etc.
The problem was probably a total lack of downforce (I don't recall wings or ground-effect undertray), combined with a narrow track of the car.

#23 Megatron

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 10:35

So Brabham were to run with a 3.5 atmo Alfa engine in 1988 eh? Or am I getting mixed up? I was aware that Alfa were somehow involved in the sale of Brabham but I didn't know it was an atmo engine.

#24 William Hunt

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 11:17

Indeed Alfa were involved with Brabham. They were supposed to run Emanuele Pirro and Martin Brundle in '88 but it never materialised. Martin did replace Mansell succesfully in Spa (setting fastest warm up time in the rain) and became World Champion Sportscars with Jaguar in '88. He would return with Brabham and Stefano Modena to F1 in '89. Pirro would go to Benetton where he took Herberts seat.

#25 Pieter

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 12:24

I found some pics of this Brabham-Alfa BT57(?).

http://www.digest.ne.../164/procar.htm

So if I understand everything correct Bernie wanted to sell Brabham to Alfa end 87, Alfa had already build an engine for their 88 car. But then Fiat bought Alfa and the deal with Bernie was off. Who then came up with the idea for a silloutte class to keep his employees busy and to find use for the Alfa engine. :confused:

Was this Alfa V10 the first V10 engine for an F1 car?

#26 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 15:07

I'm afraid that I haven't pointed out clear enough how things went.
1987: Alfa made (4-cylinder) engines for Ligier
Just before the first race, Alfa pulled out of F1, and should concentrate on touring car racing from now on.
The 4-cylinders were (AFAIK) never used again.
1988: Bernie tries to launch a new touring car series, meant to replace the ailing WTC and Group C. Alfa agrees, finances a prototype to be built at Brabham with an all-new Alfa V10 engine. Brabham withdraws from F1 (there was never a deal hinted on using an Alfa F1 engine) and concentrates on this project.
However, the new series, which should have started in 1989 probably, never took off.
For the 1989, Brabham return to F1, and Alfa starts its disappointing CART career.

#27 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 21:36

Pieter, it seems like Honda was slightly ahead of Alfa with their V10 on the track. Renault tested their V10 late in 1988.

Riccardo Patrese tested the Alfa V10 in the back of an old Euroracing Alfa 185 in May 1988.

So even if it probably never was intended for Formula 1, it may well qualify to be on this thread at least...:)

#28 petefenelon

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 01:07

Originally posted by Megatron
I saw in an interview with Ross Brawn the other day where he stated that at Benetton's request, Ford had a V12 produced in the early 90s, but it never raced and Cosworth stuck with the V8. Of course, this isn't the only engine never to turn a competitive lap, as BMW built both a car and engine around the same time, but never raced (though the car was revamped slightly and raced as Andrea Moda).

Others I can think of would be:

Climax V16
Life W12 (yes I know they entered a handful of races but I don't consider that runing considering it didn't actually run much).
I think Matra had plans to produce a V6 turbo
The Lola V10 that was supposed to race sometime in 1997

Can anyone think of any others?


A few that haven't been mentioned here:

The Clisby V6 (1.5l) and the Speed V8 (aka Brooke-Weston, 2.5l) for a start - they're readily documented in various places (particularly Mike Lawrence).

What about the "DFV-like" engine that was supposed to have featured in the Berta F1 project?

Forix also digs up the Isuzu that Lotus briefly tested with, and an abandoned HKS.

I seem to recall that Trebron were going to modify their Judds

Cosworth's initial attempts to turbocharge a BD? (as documented on that wonderful old Channel 4 documentary!) before doing the V6 - and for that matter the compound turbo/supercharged V6 Lotus were looking at later?

Couple of vague possibilities here that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread...

W18 Ferrari - was that ever even built? (there's a pic of it in Tanner & Nye)
W9 Renault for a Tyrrell six-wheeler? (another one that probably never made it into the metal?) - I've seen this mentioned more than once.

I have very vague memories of a Talbot/Matra straight-four paper project, although I could be conflating it with the V6 they were talking about and the straight-four Alfa for Ligier :)


pete

#29 Zawed

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 03:59

I recall reading somewhere that in 1994 Senna had viewed plans for a Renault V12, but then he had his Imola accident and there were regulation changes which meant the V12 was shelved. It may have been in the Autosport preview for the 2002 season.

#30 Mark Beckman

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 05:24

Gilles practiced a Ferrari 126 that has a unique supercharger that worked on wave pressure timing thru a rotating barrel uncovering ports.

Simply put the exhaust pressure pushed the intake charge from the barrel into the cylinder after the exhaust low pressure wave drew the charge into the barrel and rotated it to the appropriate port.

It had as much HP as the turbo and was fast in practice (iirc) but was never raced.

I remember Porsche trying a comeback to F1 around 1990 with a motor twice the weight with half the horsepower, obviously there was a typo on the engineers team notes that had these 2 criteira's around the wrong way :rotfl:

#31 Mark Beckman

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 05:32

Originally posted by Marcel Schot
1992 Andrea Moda-Judd : 16 entries, 2 NQs, 13 NPQ's and 1 engine failure after 11 laps of Monaco

Wouldn't want to call that racing :)


I would have thought that anything that crossed the start line had been officially raced and 11 laps leaves no doubt.

#32 Marco94

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 09:02

The compressor that Ferrari used, is called Comprex. If I recall correctly, it had problems with the belt drive. It is a very interesting compressor type, but unfortunatly the flow in the compressor is extremelly complex. Maybe some day we will be able to use sufficiently advanced Computational Fluid Dynamics software to better predict the characteristics of this system.

Check-out this site with some more info and a nice animation. Look for supercharging concept, and you'll find it.

#33 VAR1016

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 09:31

Well there's also the Coventry-Climax 2.5 litre V-8 - shelved because they believed their rivals' power claims.

Lampredi's twin has been mentioned, but there was also a F1 2.5 litre straight-six by him that never raced.

Someone mentioned a FIAT engine - would this be the 1.5 litre opposed piston two-stroke?

This one was mentioned by Clutton & Stanford, but I have never seen anything more about it.

And in view of the long-running thread elsewhere I suppose I could add the Auto-Union 1.5 litre of 1939-40 ;)

PdeRL:smoking:

#34 petefenelon

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 10:15

Originally posted by VAR1016
Well there's also the Coventry-Climax 2.5 litre V-8 - shelved because they believed their rivals' power claims.

Lampredi's twin has been mentioned, but there was also a F1 2.5 litre straight-six by him that never raced.

Someone mentioned a FIAT engine - would this be the 1.5 litre opposed piston two-stroke?

This one was mentioned by Clutton & Stanford, but I have never seen anything more about it.

And in view of the long-running thread elsewhere I suppose I could add the Auto-Union 1.5 litre of 1939-40 ;)

PdeRL:smoking:


The Climax "Godiva" raced though, much later, at 3.0l in the back of a Shannon!

I love opposed-piston two-strokes - Commer, and most of all Napier Deltic!!!
(now they're going to allow diesels (back?) at Le Mans, what price a baby Deltic coupled to a CVT? :) )

pete

#35 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 16:47

A few notes about aborted Alfa projects:

The 10 cylinders, and later a Ferrari-derivated V12, was then taken into consideration for a Group C project which replaced the still born 164 Procar. By the way, who is again the promoter and the one who gets cash from the Silhouette championship?

The 4 cylinders ran in the Ligier early in 1987, but was of course designed in 1986 under Gianni Tonti supervision. He seems not to have been the actual author of that engine, according to a former engineer I met this summer.

There's another qualifier for that thread, little known. In 1952-1954 Alfa Romeo's staff designed a new F1 car called Tipo 160 (following the 159). It had a 2.5 flat-12 giving 285 Hp. The engine was actually built and bench tested. The car would have been an All-wheel -drive with the driver seat behind the rear wheels. :eek: :drunk: The car was never built, since the same staff had to handle the Giulietta production car as priority. However, in 1952, test driver Consalvo Sanesi tried the rear driving position concept in a purposefully modified 159 with favourable exit :eek: :confused:

#36 VAR1016

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 19:16

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
A few notes about aborted Alfa projects:

There's another qualifier for that thread, little known. In 1952-1954 Alfa Romeo's staff designed a new F1 car called Tipo 160 (following the 159). It had a 2.5 flat-12 giving 285 Hp. The engine was actually built and bench tested.



Very interesting - more please - has anyone a drawing or picture? If it made 285 BHP in 1954, it really would have beaten everyone. Imagine an F1 car now with 95 more horsepower than anyone else!

PdeRL :smoking:

#37 ghinzani

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 11:40

Originally posted by petefenelon


The Climax "Godiva" raced though, much later, at 3.0l in the back of a Shannon!


My former neighbour when I lived in Turnchapel, Plymouth owned the Shannon at one point- he described it as a shitbox that scared him stupid - he had a real soft spot for it though! Told me it nearly made him bankrupt !!

#38 Mark Beckman

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 12:52

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
And it looked like a gem too!!

Posted Image


The whole thing :cat:

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#39 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 13:44

Originally posted by VAR1016
Someone mentioned a FIAT engine - would this be the 1.5 litre opposed piston two-stroke?

This one was mentioned by Clutton & Stanford, but I have never seen anything more about it.
PdeRL:smoking:


Indeed it would. Bench tested but never raced and with explosive tendencies apparently. Abandoned in favour of the Fiat 806, which raced just once.

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#40 Option1

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 14:29

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


The whole thing :cat:

Posted Image

Someone should tell that bloke the back fell off his car.

Neil

#41 VAR1016

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 16:25

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Indeed it would. Bench tested but never raced and with explosive tendencies apparently. Abandoned in favour of the Fiat 806, which raced just once.


Thanks Vitesse; that is fascinating - where did you find the drawing?

I believe that the 806 had a vertical twin- crank engine that powered the car to a victory in the 1927 Milan Grand Prix. I know that this is a little off-topic, but was it not true that the factory then ordered that the car(s) jigs and tools all to be destroyed?

Very curious. Perhaps one of the hated cost accountants escaped from the lavatory and blew the whistle on the engineers to the big banana at the top? :(

PdeRL :smoking:

#42 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 20:48

Originally posted by VAR1016


Thanks Vitesse; that is fascinating - where did you find the drawing?

I believe that the 806 had a vertical twin- crank engine that powered the car to a victory in the 1927 Milan Grand Prix. I know that this is a little off-topic, but was it not true that the factory then ordered that the car(s) jigs and tools all to be destroyed?

Very curious. Perhaps one of the hated cost accountants escaped from the lavatory and blew the whistle on the engineers to the big banana at the top? :(

PdeRL :smoking:


It's in Doug's "Motor Racing Mavericks", which also has the story of the 806. According to Alessandro, the 451 may actually have been track tested at Monza:

http://www.atlasf1.c...Fiat#post533808

The 806 was a casualty in the aftermath of the death of Guido Fornaca, the Fiat MD. Agnelli took over and ordered it destroyed. Even the drawings ....

I wish I knew why. :(

#43 VAR1016

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Posted 11 September 2002 - 21:51

Originally posted by Vitesse2


It's in Doug's "Motor Racing Mavericks", which also has the story of the 806. According to Alessandro, the 451 may actually have been track tested at Monza:

http://www.atlasf1.c...Fiat#post533808

The 806 was a casualty in the aftermath of the death of Guido Fornaca, the Fiat MD. Agnelli took over and ordered it destroyed. Even the drawings ....

I wish I knew why. :(


Vitesse, I am most grateful; of course I remember now the names of the great triumvirate: Zerbi, Fornaca and Cavalli (I thought it was Cavelli). And perhaps the description explains the reason for the abandonment of the racing programme (even though it seems curious that the directors should turn their back on conspicuous success at such a competitive time).

It seems that the attitude prevailing at FIAT in 1927 was not dissimilar to that at Austin ten years later, when Sir Herbert Austin had to finance his 744cc Murray Jamieson racers from his own pocket (apparently they cost him £3000 each - about £150,000 today which sounds really rather cheap!).

PdeRL :smoking:

#44 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 13:09

Originally posted by VAR1016



Very interesting - more please - has anyone a drawing or picture? If it made 285 BHP in 1954, it really would have beaten everyone. Imagine an F1 car now with 95 more horsepower than anyone else!

PdeRL :smoking:


I'm late, but I'm here! :)

from FUSI:

Alfa Romeo Tipo 160 1952-1954
Flat 12, 2483 cc
Bore x Stroke: 68 x 57
Power curve:
162 hp/4000
240 hp/7000
285 hp /10 000 rpm
Compression ratio 12.6 : 1
Valves at 90° Intake 35mm, Exhaust 30mm (sodium cooled)
Crankcase in two parts, magnesium casting
Assembled crankshaft (system Hirth :confused: ) on 8 roller bearings
Con rods on rollers
4 ohc on 12 roller bearings (!)
Central gearing train (on roller bearings!) which also drives the transmission shaft
12 vertical single carburettors

2 units built + 2 bicylindrical experimental units

I have drawings and pictures, but the boss is gone home with the scanner :eek:
Maybe next week...

Now, no weight is given for the full car, which was never built although Fusi states all parts were designed. With 4WD, a tube frame (not tubular : the frame had to be a tube connecting the engine with the rear mounted gearbox) and the driver far behind, it would have been a strange car, probably not a light one.

#45 VAR1016

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 18:53

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


I'm late, but I'm here! :)

from FUSI:

Alfa Romeo Tipo 160 1952-1954
Flat 12, 2483 cc
Bore x Stroke: 68 x 57
Power curve:
162 hp/4000
240 hp/7000
285 hp /10 000 rpm
Compression ratio 12.6 : 1
Valves at 90° Intake 35mm, Exhaust 30mm (sodium cooled)
Crankcase in two parts, magnesium casting
Assembled crankshaft (system Hirth :confused: ) on 8 roller bearings
Con rods on rollers
4 ohc on 12 roller bearings (!)
Central gearing train (on roller bearings!) which also drives the transmission shaft
12 vertical single carburettors

2 units built + 2 bicylindrical experimental units

I have drawings and pictures, but the boss is gone home with the scanner :eek:
Maybe next week...

Now, no weight is given for the full car, which was never built although Fusi states all parts were designed. With 4WD, a tube frame (not tubular : the frame had to be a tube connecting the engine with the rear mounted gearbox) and the driver far behind, it would have been a strange car, probably not a light one.


Thank you, most interesting.

"Hirth" is correct; Hirth built-up crankshafts were used in a number of racing engines such as the W196 Mercedes-Benz.

Of course only a built-up crankshaft can be used with roller-bearing big-ends if one wishes to avoid the nuisance of split-cage bearings.

For an engine that was probably designed to run on a special alcohol-based fuel blend, a CR of 12.6/1 was not exceptionally high - I expect had that thengine been raced and developed there would have been a lot more to come.

Thanks again

PdeRL :smoking:

#46 Marcel Schot

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Posted 18 September 2002 - 20:12

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


I would have thought that anything that crossed the start line had been officially raced and 11 laps leaves no doubt.

Hence the :) IMO there's a difference between driving a car and racing it...has something to do with speed ;)

#47 karlcars

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Posted 25 September 2002 - 17:17

Did anyone mention the flat-16 Climax engine built just at the end of the 1.5-liter Formula 1? It was a super concept but the joining of its two crankshafts wasn't sufficiently secure.

Then there's the transverse Maserati V-12 for the same Formula, a very neat engine not unlike Honda's 1.5-liter V-12.

I have lots of info on the Alfa 160 and will gladly post a photo if I can figure out how to do it!

And let us not forget the flat-12 engine built for Subaru by Motori Moderni!

#48 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 September 2002 - 22:07

Originally posted by VAR1016
"Hirth" is correct; Hirth built-up crankshafts were used in a number of racing engines such as the W196 Mercedes-Benz...Of course only a built-up crankshaft can be used with roller-bearing big-ends if one wishes to avoid the nuisance of split-cage bearings.


Posted Image

Give or take the blue stripe (my scanner's just conked out) here's a 1939 Auto Union V12 crank section showing the built-up mating face (left). Each section divided within the big-end and main roller bearings and pulled apart to enable the closed-ring roller bearing cages and rods to be removed, exposing mating-section radial 'teeth' like this; each individual crank section of course interlocking into the next upon re-assembly.

See the multi-point 'star' bolt in the crank throw upper-right?

With the correctly formed dismantling tool designed to mate with this bolt-head, it could be unwound to divide the crank-pin on which that adjacent connecting rod big-end mounts.

The twin parts of the pin and throw section itself could then be pulled apart leaving mating faces exposed similar to the radial teeth at the left here, and their division then enables the roller bearing in its 360-degree circular cage to be slid off and removed from the one-piece conrod.

The precision of this machine shop work is wonderful.

DCN

#49 VAR1016

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Posted 25 September 2002 - 22:12

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Posted Image

Give or take the blue stripe (my scanner's just conked out) here's a 1939 Auto Union V12 crank section showing the built-up mating face (left). Each section divided within the big-end and main roller bearings and pulled apart to enable the closed-ring roller bearing cages and rods to be removed, exposing mating-section radial 'teeth' like this; each individual crank section of course interlocking into the next upon re-assembly.

See the multi-point 'star' bolt in the crank throw upper-right?

With the correctly formed dismantling tool designed to mate with this bolt-head, it could be unwound to divide the crank-pin on which that adjacent connecting rod big-end mounts.

The twin parts of the pin and throw section itself could then be pulled apart leaving mating faces exposed similar to the radial teeth at the left here, and their division then enables the roller bearing in its 360-degree circular cage to be slid off and removed from the one-piece conrod.

The precision of this machine shop work is wonderful.

DCN


Thanks Doug; excellent.

Dear God! What did these things cost??

PdeRL

#50 Mark Beckman

Mark Beckman
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Posted 26 September 2002 - 14:42

Fantastic pictures Doug, thanks a million. :clap:



Originally posted by Marcel Schot

Hence the :) IMO there's a difference between driving a car and racing it...has something to do with speed ;)


Try building a racing car sometime or working within a Team and you will gain a greater appreciation of the effort just to get to the starting line at all.