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#151 Jerry Entin

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 16:26

Posted Image
Scarab reunion at Elkhart Lake in the summer of 2008
Here is the rear engined and one of the front engined Scarabs. With the Collier collection sportscar also in the picture.


photo: Tom Schultz
copyright: Tom Schultz 2008

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#152 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 17:40

He raced a Cooper in several British F2 races in 1957 and also a 200S Maserati

We had a chat with Lance in the paddock after one of the Formula2 races there in 1957. He couldnt have been much older than we were and was very pleasant and quietly spoken. My mum was most impressed when I told her that I was now a pal of Barbara Huttons son. :cool:

#153 ZOOOM

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 17:41

The F1 Scarab pictured is the crashed and rebuilt car put together by Ali Logo.
It had one of the only real Scarab, desmodromic valve F1 engines in it.

Posted Image

The guys who had bought it did drive it that year but were very aprehensive about running it in the least way hard.
I understand the car has since ben repossessed and disappeared.....

ZOOOM

#154 pete3664

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 19:29

I thought I remembered a 4th Scarab built by Troutman/Barnes built after the racing team ones displayed in the Cunningham museum in LA a number of years ago. It was still in bare aluminum and it was supposed to have been built either for road use or as a display--I remember seeing the info card as saying it had been built by Troutman and Barnes and had not been raced. It was at least 20-30 years ago.

#155 RA Historian

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 18:43

I thought I remembered a 4th Scarab built by Troutman/Barnes built after the racing team ones displayed in the Cunningham museum in LA a number of years ago. It was still in bare aluminum and it was supposed to have been built either for road use or as a display--I remember seeing the info card as saying it had been built by Troutman and Barnes and had not been raced. It was at least 20-30 years ago.

I believe that you are referring to the "25th Anniversary" Scarab. This was the "4th Scarab", built by Troutman and Barnes in 1983, +/-, for Richard Reventlow, Lance's half brother. It was capable of road use. After a few years it was sold to Richard (?) Kellogg, who, among other things, garaged it in his living room! Later he sold it to Bob Sirna, who owns it to this day. Sirna brings it out to play every July at the Road America Historics, where Tony DeLorenzo races it.
Tom


#156 RA Historian

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 18:49

img]
The guys who had bought it did drive it that year but were very aprehensive about running it in the least way hard.
I understand the car has since ben repossessed and disappeared.....

I have heard recently that the rebuilt F-1 chassis #2 is in California in the shop of Barnaby Brokaw, who supposedly co-owns it with Jack Douglass.

N.B., this is unverified.

Do not confuse this car, which, while more or less Grandpa's hammer, does have a direct lineage to the car Daigh raced and crashed at Silverstone in 1961 with the replica in existence, also in California, whose owner claims that his replica is the real thing, which it is not.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 25 December 2012 - 18:54.


#157 ZOOOM

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 20:00

I have heard recently that the rebuilt F-1 chassis #2 is in California in the shop of Barnaby Brokaw, who supposedly co-owns it with Jack Douglass.

N.B., this is unverified.

Do not confuse this car, which, while more or less Grandpa's hammer, does have a direct lineage to the car Daigh raced and crashed at Silverstone in 1961 with the replica in existence, also in California, whose owner claims that his replica is the real thing, which it is not.

Tom


Grandpa's hammer is the ali lugo car and the replica belongs to Orasco, right?
ZOOOM

#158 RA Historian

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 23:24

Bingo.

Orosco does have a genuine Scarab, the first F-1, but he also has two replicas, one of a F-1 car which while called the second chassis is not, and a replica of a front engine sports racer, which is also occasionally misidentified as real.


#159 arttidesco

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 21:08

<001 (Reventlow's car) is with Rob Walton
002 (Daigh's car) is with Augie Pabst
003 (Kessler's car) is in the Collier Museum

The Mid-Engined car is with Augie Pabst

Formula cars:

(001) is with Don Orosco with an Offenhauser engine
(002) was destroyed by Daigh at Silverstone and scrapped. A car supposedly built from some of the parts was owned by the late Ali Lugo; it was sold after his death, but I'm not sure where it went.
(003) which was not originally fitted with an engine is now in the Donington Museum.


Posted Image

Just to keep the record up to date Julian Bronson demonstrated his ex Donington Offy powered Scarab 003 at Castle Combe a couple of months ago.

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#160 RA Historian

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:38

<001 (Reventlow's car) is with Rob Walton
002 (Daigh's car) is with Augie Pabstnow owned by John Mozart
003 (Kessler's car) is in the Collier Museum still there, but to call it the Kessler car is to stretch the point as Kessler only raced it once

The Mid-Engined car is with Augie Pabst

Formula cars:

(001) is with Don Orosco with an Offenhauser engine
(002) was destroyed by Daigh at Silverstone and scrapped. A car supposedly built from some of the parts was owned by the late Ali Lugo; it was sold after his death, but I'm not sure where it went. Barnaby Brokaw, who supposedly co-owns it with Jack Douglass. N.B. this is unverified, but what I have heard
(003) which was not originally fitted with an engine is now in the Donington Museum. now owned by Julian Bronson
"004", rear engine formula car, is with Dan Cotter




Updated in red

Edited by RA Historian, 31 December 2012 - 17:40.


#161 ZOOOM

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:23

Updated in red


Has Augie SOLD the Scarab????

ZOOOM


#162 RA Historian

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:42

Yes.

#163 cheesy poofs

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:13

Here's a pic of the Scarabs that my mum took at Thompson Raceway in Connecticut.

http://instagr.am/p/NgZ55yJ5dl/



#164 David M. Kane

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 19:31

Here's the rear engined Scarab pictured on the same day as the "Ugly Duckling":
Posted Image

ZOOOM


Can you imagine what Dave MacDonald could have done with this car? :up:

#165 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 21:12

Can you imagine what Dave MacDonald could have done with this car? :up:



That is one of the great "might have beens" of sports car racing in the early 1060's; I've read that Shelby, later on, regretted not buying the Scarab instead of getting into the Coopers. There's a picture out there of him watching his crew polishing the first Cobra in the old Reventlow shop, with the rear-engined Formula car stuck in the corner.

#166 RA Historian

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 22:10

Can you imagine what Dave MacDonald could have done with this car? :up:

Well, I don't think that you can say that AJ Foyt and Walt Hansgen did not do well with it...
Tom

#167 E1pix

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 00:43

Has Augie SOLD the Scarab????


Yes.


We're about to permanently leave our home of Denver after 33 years here, so have made rounds to see old friends.

One's in Golden, a lifer fabricator and builder of the highest degree, Gary O'Koren. We walked into his shop and there was a frame down to bare metal, the only "car" there. Almost fell off my chair when he said it was Augie's Scarab, in for a total resto. As mentioned earlier, I was raised a mile from Mr. Pabst so this was a real walk through Memory Lane... and quite a surprise in our rounds. :)

#168 TIPO61

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 23:22

When Mecum owned it I believe Frank Lance 'wrenched' it...among others.


#169 E1pix

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:53

Did John own it before Augie?

I thought he did, and that's the way it's getting restored from what I understand. Cool thing for me, I may do the hand-signage after a quarter-century away from the quills and flats.


#170 ray b

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 16:32

how much is the first chaparral really a Scarab
or at least a evolution of the Scarab

should the Scarab history and records include the first chaparral's ?

#171 RA Historian

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 18:08

Did John own it before Augie?

If you are talking the Mk IV, Mecom sold it to Augie in 1965. It is still in the Pabst family. Augie sold the front engine car, the second built, to John Mozart last summer.

Tom

#172 RA Historian

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 18:13

how much is the first chaparral really a Scarab
or at least a evolution of the Scarab

should the Scarab history and records include the first chaparral's ?

First question: One could say that the Chaparral 1 was an evolution of the front engine Scarab, as the Chaparral 1 was built by Troutman & Barnes using all the knowledge they gained with the Scarabs. But it is not a Scarab, as Reventlow Automobiles Inc. had nothing to do with it. T & B initially called the car the "Riverside", but when Jim Hall came on board and ensured the funding by placing an order for two cars Hall got to name the car. Enter "Chaparral"

Second question: No, not in the least. Separate cars, separate operations, separate builders.

#173 ray b

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 20:22

First question: One could say that the Chaparral 1 was an evolution of the front engine Scarab, as the Chaparral 1 was built by Troutman & Barnes using all the knowledge they gained with the Scarabs. But it is not a Scarab, as Reventlow Automobiles Inc. had nothing to do with it. T & B initially called the car the "Riverside", but when Jim Hall came on board and ensured the funding by placing an order for two cars Hall got to name the car. Enter "Chaparral"

Second question: No, not in the least. Separate cars, separate operations, separate builders.


separate builders ? really or the same guys in the same shop [T&B] funded by different sources ?
yes money matters but no amounts of money should hide the talent of T&B of building great race cars

but Porsche's number of wins and racing history reflects joest and other private teams AND factory entry's

#174 RA Historian

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 13:27

Scarab built by Reventlow Automobiles Inc. Chaparral 1s by Troutman and Barnes. Now, T&B did have input to RAI on the early cars but by the time they built the Chaparrals they were very much a separate company. To try to combine their histories is a real, real stretch; rather like trying to combine the Lotus 38 and early Eagles into one and the same because Len Terry was the major designer on both. Just not on.

I must say that you are likely the first, and only, person to ever try to combine Scarab and Chaparral histories. As I said, just not on. Oh, BTW, the plural of entry is entries.

#175 E1pix

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 21:52

If you are talking the Mk IV, Mecom sold it to Augie in 1965. It is still in the Pabst family. Augie sold the front engine car, the second built, to John Mozart last summer.

Tom

Hi Tom, don't know the Scarab "Mark" numbers... but am wondering if Mecom owned Augie's front-engined car (a Mk III?) before Augie did.

I'd love to see some photos of it in pre-Augie livery to ponder over the summer and pre-warm the brushes. I understand it was a lighter blue than the Meister Brauser color.

#176 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 23:43

Just added this one to stock. Pabst at Riverside in 1960 I believe (please feel free to correct me if thats wrong)

Posted Image

#177 RA Historian

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 00:20

Hi Tom, don't know the Scarab "Mark" numbers... but am wondering if Mecom owned Augie's front-engined car (a Mk III?) before Augie did.

The rear engine Scarab was the fourth sports racer Scarab built. The three front engine cars were dubbed Mk I, II, and III, corresponding to their build order. The fourth sports racer is the Mk IV.

The front engine car that Augie recently sold was the second of three front engine cars. Mecom never owned it. The ownership history is RAI, Nickey, Jeffords, Leader Card, Jeffords, Meister Brauser, Pabst, Mozart. Jim Jeffords has to be inserted a couple times because he bought it from Nickey, sold it to Leader Card, bought it from Leader Card, and sold it to Meister Brauser. Jeffords both times bought the car with the knowledge that he had to immediately resell it as he did not have the full purchase price to his name!

The Mk IV ownership trail is quite simple. RAI, Mecom, Pabst. Mecom also briefly owned one of the front engine Formula 1 cars, I believe the third one built, which was never raced but was the team spare. I believe the ownership trail of that is RAI, Mecom, Don Devine, Donington Collection, Julian Bronson.

Tom

#178 RA Historian

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 00:24

I'd love to see some photos of it in pre-Augie livery to ponder over the summer and pre-warm the brushes. I understand it was a lighter blue than the Meister Brauser color.

The RAI color was indeed a shade or two lighter than the Meister Brauser blue. Of course, when this car, the second built or 002, whichever you prefer, was sold by RAI to Nickey, it was painted the dark metallic violet that the Nickey cars of the day were painted. Leader Card kept this color when they owned it, but when it was sold to Meister Brauser it received the darker Meister Brauser blue. When Pabst bought the car from Meister Brauser he kept it in the Meister Brauser colors because that is the way he raced it so successfully.
Tom

#179 E1pix

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:34

Thank You very much, Tom. Always a pleasure to borrow your memory a bit. :)

I am not entirely sure which livery the owner will want... but, I suspect that since it's not Augie's that it may be as original, per the RAI colors (thanks again, what's the meaning of those initials?).

If indeed we're in town and able to letter the car, I will be needing period photos to match. I suspect the owner has them, if not I am interested in seeing some now. Can't speak for anyone's budget but if we want it right I will request images and hopefully be able to offer the shooter fair compensation. (helps that I am a livery painter-photographer in this case :) )

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#180 Jerry Entin

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:59

Tom: The following are Willem Oosthoek's thoughts on the supposed numbering of the Scarab cars:

After all these years it is not surprising that the nomenclature such as Mk 1, 2, 3 and 4 appear when referring to the Scarabs. However, apart from Mk 1 [the one LHD sportsracer] and Mk 2 [two RHD sportsracers], the others are a figment of somebody's imagination. Chuck Daigh confirmed to me when I interviewed him in the 90s that there never was such a designation as a Mk 4, now used for the one rear-engined sportsracer built.

It would not make any sense anyway, as two different models came in between, three front-engined Formula One chassis and one rear-engined Intercontinental chassis.

So let stop calling these cars Mk 3 and 4. They never happened to be named that way.

Troutman-Barnes did built a second generation of the Scarab, which eventually was named the Chaparral. Originally Jim Hall was not involved, though. It was former Scarab racers Jim Jeffords and Harry Heuer who put up their deposits for a car that T-B planned to call the Riverside Racer.

When Jeffords developed a viral infection in January 1961, he was put on cortisone and gained tremendous weight as a result. Afraid he would never be able to race, he offered his share to Jim Hall, his co-driver in Frank Harrison's Birdcage in the Road America 500 in 1960. Hall agreed to take over Jeffords' share, paying Jeffords back his deposit. That is how Hall became involved with the T-B design, which he renamed Chaparral upon completion. Heuer stuck to his part of the deal and got the second one, which he eventually called M.B. Chaparral as well [after sticking to just Meister Brauser Special at first].

This is not a version that you will ever hear from Jim Hall, but it is what actually happened.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 05 June 2013 - 03:02.


#181 RA Historian

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 15:17

I am not entirely sure which livery the owner will want... but, I suspect that since it's not Augie's that it may be as original, per the RAI colors (thanks again, what's the meaning of those initials?).

RAI=Reventlow Automobiles Inc.

I have no idea what Mozart will do with his Scarab, but I suspect that he will keep it in Meister Brauser colors as it is now. The other two front engine cars are in their RAI colors, so it makes a bit of sense to have one in the Meister Brauser colors not only to differentiate it, but also since many races were won by that team.

Not willing to get into a squabble, but I do recall contemporary reports in periodicals of the late '50s and early '60s referring to the four Scarab sports racers by Mk numbers, including Mk IV. Now granted that is subject to the source of the periodicals' reports, but it does lend an air of legitimacy to the common practice over the years of that method of identification.

#182 E1pix

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 19:14

Thanks, Tom.

I was told it won't use the Brauser colors. It'd be neat for me if it did, but surely that won't be part of the decision. ;)

#183 rl1856

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 18:01

Tom: The following are Willem Oosthoek's thoughts on the supposed numbering of the Scarab cars:


Troutman-Barnes did built a second generation of the Scarab, which eventually was named the Chaparral. Originally Jim Hall was not involved, though. It was former Scarab racers Jim Jeffords and Harry Heuer who put up their deposits for a car that T-B planned to call the Riverside Racer.

When Jeffords developed a viral infection in January 1961, he was put on cortisone and gained tremendous weight as a result. Afraid he would never be able to race, he offered his share to Jim Hall, his co-driver in Frank Harrison's Birdcage in the Road America 500 in 1960. Hall agreed to take over Jeffords' share, paying Jeffords back his deposit. That is how Hall became involved with the T-B design, which he renamed Chaparral upon completion. Heuer stuck to his part of the deal and got the second one, which he eventually called M.B. Chaparral as well [after sticking to just Meister Brauser Special at first].

This is not a version that you will ever hear from Jim Hall, but it is what actually happened.


Where does the Troutman-Barnes Special fit into all of this ?

Would it be correct to view the lineage as TB Special-->Scarab-->Chapparal, with the last being a development of the first 2 ? The unifieing element being the involvment of Troutman-Barnes in the design and construction of all 3 vehicles.

Best,

Ross

#184 Jerry Entin

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 21:58


We tend to agree with Tipo 61, although the Troutman-Barnes Special and the Chaparral 1 were in-house T-B designs.

As for "Racing", let's add Chuck Daigh, who raced all three of them.

#185 ray b

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 02:11

3 cars TB SPECIAL , SCARAB , CHAPARRAL one builder
same class of race car , similar race tracks too
some crossover in drivers in the mix too

so why am I the only one who see a history here mr RA Historian ?

guess not
as I am not the first to see this strong connection

#186 RA Historian

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 13:51

A connection through T&B, but different companies, different times, different owners. To say they are all the same is way too much of a stretch and one that I have never seen before. Just not on. Sorry. As I said before, by your logic the early Eagle F-1 and Indy Cars should be considered Lotuses since the contemporary Eagle and Lotus cars were designed by the same person. Just not on.

#187 ray b

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 15:43

A connection through T&B, but different companies, different times, different owners. To say they are all the same is way too much of a stretch and one that I have never seen before. Just not on. Sorry. As I said before, by your logic the early Eagle F-1 and Indy Cars should be considered Lotuses since the contemporary Eagle and Lotus cars were designed by the same person. Just not on.



but lotus did not go away and the builders move on to eagle along with some of the drivers in the same building/shop

and I never said they were the same cars/teams
just have a connected history/roots

#188 Jerry Entin

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 22:18

This comes from Willem Oosthoek:
Not entirely true, Tipo 61, although it depends on how you define the word development.

Dick Troutman did come over to Midland in early March 1962 and stayed with the team until after Sebring later that month, to bring both Hall cars up to Appendix C standards, plus many other upgrades such as air jacks.

As for Rattlesnake raceway, the track was not finished until November 1962, when the heydays of the Chaparral 1 were over. So this track had little to do with its development, more so with the later rear-engined models.

Since Red Byron died in November 1960, he could not have been involved in the development of Heuer's Chaparral, which saw its first appearance in October 1961.

#189 RA Historian

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 00:10

Red Byron was team manager for Meister Brauser in 1960. He died at the end of the season, a year before the team got its Chaparral. Don Devine did not race for Meister Brauser until 1963. Troutman and Barnes Scarab; never referred to as that.


#190 E1pix

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:46

I'm outa here for good. "Thanks for all the fish."

Geez, sounds like the right decision.

#191 rl1856

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 20:20

A connection through T&B, but different companies, different times, different owners. To say they are all the same is way too much of a stretch and one that I have never seen before. Just not on. Sorry. As I said before, by your logic the early Eagle F-1 and Indy Cars should be considered Lotuses since the contemporary Eagle and Lotus cars were designed by the same person. Just not on.


Perhaps my my questsion should have been more clearly stated.

To me the unifying element among the 3 cars was the involvment of TB. The TB Special was developed in the early 50's and later driven by Chuck Daigh, who of course was closely associated with Reventlow and Scarab. Is it fair to say that Daigh brought TB to Reventlow, who commisioned them to build the Scarab ?

Mssrs TB openly acknowledged that lessons learned from the special were incorporated into the Scarab, making the later a development of the former.

Later, TB left Reventlow and designed a prototype chassis that they hoped to put into production- the "Riverside Racer". Again, they openly acknowledeged that it was a development of and an improvement upon the Scarab. It became the Chaparral after Jim Hall agreed to purchase the first 2 chassis.

While there were 3 different customers and 3 diffierent companies involved, in the case of all 3 cars, the involvement of TB was the unifying element.

In that light, wouldn't the lineage be TB Special --> Scarab --> Chaparral 1 ?

Best,

Ross

#192 group7

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 20:36

I have a picture I would like to post here. I have a mac, it is in I-photo and I can't seem to do it. could I send the photo to some one to post for me ?

mike/group7

#193 E1pix

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 22:06

I could do it for you, Mike.

#194 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:44

Here's Mike's photo:

Posted Image



#195 group7

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 14:04

Here's Mike's photo:

Posted Image

this street sign caught my eye while in copenhagen in april, the d & e at the end are partially obscured. thanks to tim for posting for me.

mike in canada

Edited by group7, 23 June 2013 - 15:42.


#196 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:15

The full name is REVENTLOWSGADE which Means REVENTLOWS STREET.

#197 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:59

The full name is REVENTLOWSGADE which Means REVENTLOWS STREET.

This picture of Mike and Bjorn's explanation made me curious. Danmark as well as Germany have streets named after them. Seems Reventlow name stems from the Baltic see area, more detailed a German nobility.

#198 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 13:11

This picture of Mike and Bjorn's explanation made me curious. Danmark as well as Germany have streets named after them. Seems Reventlow name stems from the Baltic see area, more detailed a German nobility.


Nothing to do with Woolworths shops then....

#199 Tim Murray

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 13:41

There have beem several significant Reventlows in Danish history:

http://en.wikipedia....Count_Reventlow

http://en.wikipedia....itlev_Reventlow

http://en.wikipedia....derik_Reventlow

I'm sure Bjørn or our other Danish friends can tell us more, but I suspect that Reventlowsgade is named after one of the above.

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#200 group7

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 00:12

I didn't think there was a connection. my wife said to me at the time, that only an anorak like yourself would notice that street sign ! she is interested in cars and does know the history behind barbara hutton & count reventlow, and some of the story of scarab cars, I do try and keep her educated in such matters ! thanks again to tim & bjorn & arjan. one learns something every day !

mike in canada