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Mercedes SSK & SSK/L


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#1 figoni

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 03:25

My question(s) is thus
1 - How many SSK's where there originally
2 - I have read somewhere that there are only 2 original racing SSK's left the ex Trossi now Ralf Lauren car and the ex. Zatusek car owned by Rolf Meyer. IS this correct
3 - Are there any SSK/L's left.
Are there any books dealing in depth with this era of Mercedes Benz.
I know that is a lot of questions :yawn: but I am very interested in the subject.
Cheers for any info. that anyone might have
tim

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#2 Phil Neville

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 03:40

I read in an article in 'Octane' magazine that 33 SSKs were built over a period of four years.

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:50

Figoni: you may find that this thread will answer many of your questions -

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=62608

:)

#4 figoni

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 20:50

My question would remain do any still exist ??
does anyone know :yawn:

#5 D-Type

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 00:25

At the Goodwood Revival there was an SSK and an SSKL racing and another SSK being auctioned, so some certainly still exist.

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 06:07

A lot of SSKs and SSKLs seen today are not originals ;)

#7 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 18:27

Definitively no original SSKL has survived. The 2 cars around in Germany are complete recreations, meaning no converted SSK's. This is quite well known, but not normally promoted.

From the 33 SSK's built about 50 or so have survived...

#8 Racecar

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 19:25

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Definitively no original SSKL has survived. The 2 cars around in Germany are complete recreations, meaning no converted SSK's. This is quite well known, but not normally promoted.

From the 33 SSK's built about 50 or so have survived...



:rotfl:

#9 Peter Morley

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 19:34

We had dinner at Goodwood with Hermann Layher who was racing his SSK, which he had driven over from Germany in (no support vehicle, only preperation was to remove the lights & wings when he got there).

Hermann said that his car had been in his family for years, and I think had originally belonged to a Brit.

He had recently been interviewed on Geman TV and when they asked "why don't you sell the car, since it is worth 7 million euros", he replied "it is only money"!!

In Hermann's case that is certainly true, a mere bagatelle...... - his museum in Sinsheim contains both Russian & Anglo/French Concorde's, and he is currently trying to add a Russian Space Shuttle to the fleet :drunk:

It seemed reasonable to assume that his SSK was the genuine item?

#10 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 19:42

I only know that the Layher car about 15 years ago or so was a shortened type S. But I don't want to excude that in the meantime he sold it and bought another one.

#11 figoni

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 20:20

It would be nice to know that if ever I get to see a SSK what I am actually looking at. Here in N.Z. we actually have at Southwards museum an Australian SSK. Does any one know what it is ??. My thoughts are there are NO original SSK/L's and most if not all of the SSK's that survive are road cars not racing cars. I no the ex. Trossi car was originally a racer but could it be called such a car now. What survived when it was rebodied etc. And the only other car raced would be, maybe, the ex. Zatuzek car, auctioned 2001 in France which from my recollection has had a new chassis fitted c. 1990's by its then owner. So again :rotfl:
Are there any racing SSK's left I have to think NO :cry:
or shall we say maybe not :confused:
:confused: :confused: :smoking: :smoking: :stoned:

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 21:23

I'm pretty sure the Southward car (ex-Davison) is an SS, not an SSK

#13 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 December 2004 - 22:15

Would you please define the difference between a road and a racing SSK...?

By the way, this one is
(1) for sure a genuine one
(2) nearly sure a former racing car
(3) a survivor

Posted Image

#14 Jonas

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 07:40

There's also one SSK in Sweden with an extensive racing history (in the hands of Ebb, Finland). The originality of this car is, to my knowledge, undisputed..

#15 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 09:11

Originally posted by Michael Müller
I only know that the Layher car about 15 years ago or so was a shortened type S. But I don't want to excude that in the meantime he sold it and bought another one.


Maybe he has more than one?

e.g. His SS Black Prince, was originally an S that was upgraded in 1934.

But he did say the SSK had been in the family a long time, so presumably must be the car he had 15 years ago which you are no doubt right about being an upgraded S (was it shortened a long time ago?).

I know the Bugatti Royale and Ferari GTO are replicas, which is not surprising, and given they are only a tiny part of the collection (500+ cars, 60 + aeroplanes, 22 trains, 3 U-boats etc) hardly important!

#16 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 09:33

Don't know when the "S" in question was shortened, in period, or in modern times.
Concerning his museum, as far I know most of the cars - and also of the other exhibts - are on loan from others. Remember when he started 20 or 25 years ago, he had a few own cars, but not enough to start a museum. He therefore developed a new concept by offering free "storage space" to other car owners.

#17 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 09:39

That is how most museums work (even Tom Wheatcroft doesn't own all the cars at Donington).
It would be surprising if one person could afford to have such an amazing collection.
But Hermann is certainly in a different financial league to most people.

By the way there is an SSK for sale! Just seen the following advert:

Mercedes SSK 1929 RHD 2 seater roadster.
White, Lovely original 1929 car. Original green log book £POA. Tel. 00 33 625 155 855

#18 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:07

I believe one should not look at Layher as private person, but as the Managing Director of the company "Technik Museum" (http://www.technik-museum.de/). Although I believe he is still main shareholder the exhibits are not his personal property - except possibly a few ones which he brought in at the beginning. The museum is commercial enterprise with abt. 750.000 annual visitors, and to keep it at the top of the list of German museums they always have to invest in new and interesting exhibits.

In fact it was his idea and his concept, and I doubt that without his personal capabilities such stunning exhibition would have been possible.

#19 VAR1016

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:17

One SSK that has surely survived is the one that David Scott-Moncrieff bought from Lord Howe*.

This was almost certainly an ex-works car - perhaps even ex-Carracciola.

PdeRL

[Edit]*as mentioned in "The Thoroughbred car 1930-1940" by D. S-M.

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#20 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:30

No reply from "figoni" about the difference between road and race SSK's. Well, I believe there is no difference at all. The SSK was clearly developed as sports car for competition purpose, and consequently there are only a few which never raced. Sure, some of them had the honour to start their life as works car, and some had been exclusively race cars, but most had been used dual-purpose. Technically they all had been identical, except few works cars which had been equipped with the bigger "elephant blower".

#21 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:44

Originally posted by Michael Müller
I believe one should not look at Layher as private person, but as the Managing Director of the company "Technik Museum" (http://www.technik-museum.de/). Although I believe he is still main shareholder the exhibits are not his personal property - except possibly a few ones which he brought in at the beginning. The museum is commercial enterprise with abt. 750.000 annual visitors, and to keep it at the top of the list of German museums they always have to invest in new and interesting exhibits.

In fact it was his idea and his concept, and I doubt that without his personal capabilities such stunning exhibition would have been possible.


I see what you mean, it is certainly a very impressive place - and his enthusiasm is incredible.

By the way do you have access to Mercedes records? If I gave you the details I know about a particular pre-war car (not a race car but a rare version) could you find out more?
If so can I mail you privately?

#22 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 10:47

Peter, no, no access to the MB archive. Never tried it because I'm doing these kind of things not professionally but only due to personal interest. Only archive access is that to my own one... :cool:

But of course you are always free to mail me (michael@axos.nl).


#23 figoni

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 21:30

I am just interested but perhaps to my mind a car that has competed in a race is a race car. Whereas I think most if not all SSK's are, albeit, very expensive and very fast road cars. Further the car at Southwards is listed as a 38/250 which I beleive to be the term for an SSK ??
Tim :cool:

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 21:42

Sticking my neck out, and OTTOMH -
The S-Type was known in England as the 36/220, and the SS as the 38/250
I can check fairly easily, but not just at the moment

#25 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 21:50

Tim, I'm sure that nearly all SSK's competed in one or more "races", even if this was only a secondary hillclimb. There may be a few exceptions, e.g. the beauty which has been built by Papler in Cologne.

Posted Image

38/250 is the British designation of the SSK, where 38 was the tax hp and 250 the bhp. The official designation in Germany was 28/170/225, where 28 are the German tax hp, 170 the net hp unblown, and 225 the net hp with supercharger.

#26 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 21:52

David, of course 38/250 was applicable also for the SS, because it was the same engine.

#27 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 08 December 2004 - 23:08

Posted Image

Here the 38/250 from 1928 with the original wheelbase. On the continent it was known as the 'SS'.

#28 David McKinney

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 06:00

Originally posted by Michael Müller
David, of course 38/250 was applicable also for the SS, because it was the same engine.

That occurred to me after my post above ;)

#29 VAR1016

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Posted 09 December 2004 - 14:46

Hans's post makes an important point: he mentions "original wheelbase"

The "K" in "SSK" stood for "Kurz" = short.

PdeRL

#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 09:39

Just for passing mildly related interest - press release on last Monday's Bonhams car sale at Olympia, London:

"The top lot in Bonhams' annual Motoring Sale at Olympia last night sold
for
an exceptional £1,156,500, prompting a round of applause from the
packed
saleroom. The highly successful £3.2-million sale attracted
international
interest and saw an incredible 90% of the vehicles sell. High points
were:

* 1929 Mercedes-Benz 38/250-hp SS Cabriolet by Castagna which
sold for £1,156,500
* The Earl Mountbatten of Burma's 1929/30 Rolls-Royce Phantom
II which sold for £79,700
* The Patrick Collection of vehicles from 1905 to 1995 was
100% sold, realising £565,000

Tim Scofield, Head of Bonhams' Motor Car Department commented after the
sale: "Bonhams has had incredible success this year with its motoring
sales
and this has been a great way to round off the UK sales calendar."

The 1929 Mercedes-Benz SS Roadster-Cabriolet, ordered new by 'Roxy'
Rothafel, the genius behind the New York dance troupe 'The Rockettes'
and
the Radio City Music Hall, sold to an overseas collector for
£1,156,500.
Bonhams is the only auction house to have achieved a seven-figure sum
for a
car in the UK this year and it has done so twice. Just three months
ago it
sold another pre-war Mercedes-Benz for a staggering £4.18-million,
ranking
it the world's second highest price paid for a car at auction.

The renowned Patrick Collection attracted an extraordinary amount of
interest with all 45 vehicles selling, many achieving well above their
pre-sale estimates. Buyers in the room battled with multiple telephone
bidders for cars as diverse as a 1982 De Lorean 2.9-litre DMC 12
(£21,275)
and a 1981 Daimler Double-Six PMG Rapport Forte Estate (£8,970) to a
1905
Mass 8hp Two Seater (£10,350). Other cars in this collection included
the
1987 Aston Martin V8 Vantage Zagato Coupe (£77,400), the ex- Stig
Blomquist/Malcolm Wilson 1982 Audi Quattro Group B Rally Car, which
sold for
£58,700 - double its estimate - and a
1970 6.3-litre Jensen FF Mark III Coupe (£25,025).

Alexander Patrick, Chairman of the Trustees of the Patrick Foundation
said:
"I am absolutely delighted with the tremendous success of the sale. It
was
fantastic to see so many people who showed a real interest in the full
range
of vehicles in the Collection. The proceeds from the sale will ensure
that
the educational objectives of the Patrick Foundation can be maintained
and
expanded, whilst retaining a representative vehicle collection."

Elsewhere in the sale, the 1929 Rolls-Royce Phantom II 40/50hp Sedanca
de
Ville, ordered new by the Earl Mountbatten of Burma sold for £69,700.
Lord
Mountbatten used the car, which still carries his personalised number
plate
'LM 3698', to be driven from his home in Hampshire to London and back
for
seven years.

The early 'snowmobile', a circa1900 de Dion-engined Two-Seater, which
baffled the experts, sold for £23,000. This stoic two-seater was
thought to
have been used on polar expeditions in 1908 but was later stored for
years
in an Italian nobleman's property. It will now continue its life in a
European museum.

Other highlights of the sale included:

* 1988 Porsche 959 Coupe, 9,270 miles from new (£139,000)
* A wonderful horse-drawn hearse, hidden from view for over 40
years in a barn in Czechoslovakia (£11,500)
* 1926 Rolls-Royce Phantom I 40/50hp Fully Convertible
Cabriolet (£95,000)
* 1935/8 Alfa Romeo 6C 2300B Torpedino Brescia (£95,000)

For further information contact Rebecca Ruff on +44 (0)20 7468 8210 or
Josephine Olley on +44 (0)20 7468 8229 or email press@bonhams.com

Notes for Editors

Bonhams, founded in 1793, is one of the world's oldest and largest
auctioneers of fine art and antiques. The present company was formed
by the
merger in November 2001 of Bonhams & Brooks and Phillips Son and Neale
UK.
In August 2002, the company acquired Butterfields, the principal firm
of
auctioneers on the West Coast of America and in August 2003, Goodmans,
a
leading Australian fine art and antiques auctioneer with salerooms in
Sydney, joined the Bonhams Group of Companies. Today, Bonhams is the
third
largest and fastest growing auction house in the world. It offers more
sales
than any of its rivals, through two major salerooms in London: New Bond
Street, and Knightsbridge, and a further 10 throughout the UK. Sales
are
also held in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York and Boston in the
USA; and
Switzerland, France, Monaco, and Australia. In addition Bonhams has a
worldwide network of offices and regional representatives offering
sales
advice and valuation services in 14 countries. For a full listing of
upcoming sales, plus details of more than 40 Bonhams specialist
departments,
go to www.bonhams.com."

DCN