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Alfa 412 & 8C2900A


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#1 figoni

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 21:21

Just a little list from my info. gleaned over the last 20 years any thoughts debates discussions more than welcome, come on detceterini and other alfisti :smoking: :stoned: ): :lol:
#412001/SF51 became #412008 with Tornquist, Argentina ??
#412002/?? became #412007 with Simon Moore (you may have heard of him :p )
#412003/SF53 Not Sold 2001 at auction in the USA ??
#412004/SF54 MM 1936 Winner became #412006 Matt Grist
#412005 became #412013 to Jean Studer ??
#412006 MM 1937 Winner Schlumpf Museum
#412007 is this the Simon Moore car ??
#412008 ??
#412009 ??
#412010 ??
#412011 Nowack DHC > Sold 1979 > David Black > Italy 1980's
#412012 Tipo A MM 1938 3rd > Pininfarina Cabriolet > Christies 1999 > Laurence Auriana
#412013 ??
#412014 Touring Cabriolet John Mozart
#412015 Tipo A Robert Wild ??
#412016 Touring Convertible Jim Ibold ??
#412017 ??
#412018 Touring Convertible Bill Serri ??
#412019 Touring Convertible Ralph Lauren
#412020 Touring Coupe Sold Christies 1980's
#412021 MM Spider Replica Rodney Felton > SMC
#412022 Touring Spider ??
#412023 Touring Spider ??
#412024 Touring Lungo Berlinetta ??
#412025 ??
#412026 Touring Convertible ??
#412027 Touring Convertible Simeone
#412028 Touring Convertible Keller
#412029 Touring Lungo Berlinetta Alfa Romeo Museum
#412030 MM 1938 2nd Ralph Lauren
#412031 MM 1938 Winner Simeone
#412032 MM 1938 ??
#412033 Le Mans Berlinetta Alfa Museum
#412034 MM 1938 Sclumpf Collection
#412035 Touring Lungo Berlinetta Cohen
#412036 MM 1947 Winner Collier
#412037 412 Bonetto ??
#412038 412 Schlumpf Collection
#412039 412 ??
#412040 ??
#412041 ??
#412042 Touring Coupe King of Romania ??
#412043 "The Whale" Louwman Collection

Tim

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#2 figoni

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 21:23

Sorry about spelling your name wrong dretceterini :rolleyes:

#3 dretceterini

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 21:31

No problem..

Simon Moore is the 8c2900 expert, not me. He is working on an "update" to the 8c2900 book, but it is still some time away. I think he plans to come out with the book on the pre-war GP cars first.

I'm very interested in the Tipo 412s, and after years of questions and study, I still don't know if there were 2, 3 or 4 cars. As far as I'm aware, the S/Ns of the known 412s are 037 and 038, with motors 051 and 052...but as I have not inspected the cars in the "schlumpf" museum.

There is a lovely Touring bodied grey conv't at Bob Mosier's shop near the LA airport, having some work done on it.

The Le Mans coupe was once owned by my uncle (actually a cousin, but we knew him as an uncle) Johnny Lurani, in the late 1960s. I'm not sure how it got from him to Sparken, who traded it to the museum for a 158/159 GP car.

The ex-Serri 1938 MM winner is now in the hands of Ralph Lauren, and is being restored.

#4 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 13:48

Originally posted by figoni
Just a little list from my info. gleaned over the last 20 years any thoughts debates discussions more than welcome, come on detceterini and other alfisti :smoking: :stoned: ): :lol:
#412001/SF51 became #412008 with Tornquist, Argentina ??
etc.

Tim


May I question the aim of the posting?

Even if it's now 18 years old, the "Immortal 2.9" book by Simon answers most of the question marks or missing data. Of course, ownership changed, some cars have been "rescued" or "barnfound" and so on, all that giving full justification for an update. But how would anyone qualify to write it other than Simon himself?

Now, I know how many houses one could afford having been wise enough as to store, say, an Alfa 6 trunkload of copies. :rotfl: :rotfl:

So I guess you desperately would like to find a reasonably priced one, in which you would find the missing info. Very difficult indeed.

Having said that, I appreciate as well your effort in putting those data together.

Or do I miss a point? :confused:

#5 richardspringett

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 14:07

Like Patrick Italiano I am not sure what is the purpose of this post. I do not own Simon Moore's book but I do believe it is fully comprehensive giving, albeit somewhat now out of date, info but isn't it all there... :confused: Please enlighten me... us???

#6 figoni

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 20:53

really no great reason just thought there may be some discussion out of it ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
:lol: :smoking: :p :lol: :smoking:
And as for buying a copy $1000US is kinda a little steep
Tim

#7 vintageautomobilia

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 22:35

I'm not sure I see a "purpose" in a great many of the postings I see in TNF, but they're interesting reading just the same. And Simon's 2.9 book did leave some open questions.

#8 dretceterini

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 02:00

In today's world one can not afford all the car books that one "needs" (my current list of "needs" amounts to about $20,000..and that's just new books), so I have no problem trying to help others that don't have a specific book..

#9 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 12:20

OK, no problem, I was just wondering, because the first post just listed the cars and didn't ask any question nor explained what it was about.

But I still don't understand if we want to try to update some data/educated guesses/gaps in Moore's book or if it's about extracting info from the book.

Anyway, I've had a quick look yesterday night in Simon's book and some of my archive on the subject, and found your list quite accurate, but I could not practically check every entry. Well, I mean that some of Simon guesses now have more precise answers, positive or negative.

I didn't manage to find an article I have in my archive, I believe from a Classic and Sports Cars, about the King of Romania car. I know that there's far more info on that car now than back in 1986, but the point is that Simon had guessed chassis number 412039 for that car, without proof. So, I wonder if you put it under #412042 from a precise source (possibly the C&SC article I think of), or if it's a guess/misinterpretation of SImon's data?

As Doug Nye kindly provided in another thread the comprehensive list of chassis numbers for the Alfas in the Schlumpf museum, it can be stated without doubt that:

-412032, one of the four MM38 spiders :love: , has been raced i Switzerland shortly after the war, then got a Swiss-crafted body :cry: and is still in Mulhouse.

-The 412 of the same collection is NOT numbered 412038, but 412152. It's Simon's guess that it was initilally intended as 8C2.9 412038 and subsequently renumbered to match the engine number. I'm pretty convinced, but the fact remains that there's no car numbered 037 nor 038.

-The spider with retractable headlights is 412004, not 412006.

#10 dretceterini

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 18:28

Speaking of 2900s, IV Model factory is releasing a 1/43rd scale model of the Zagato bodied car.

#11 Mark Ballard

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 01:37

I hope this is of interest to followers of this thread (I have no connection with the seller)

http://cgi.ebay.com/...4508312510&rd=1

#12 Jeff Weinbren

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 07:08

As a matter of interest both #412035 & #412036 are currently in Vancouver Canada and it is quite exciting to see the two together, a rare sight indeed!!!
Jeff Weinbren.

#13 Michael Müller

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 11:20

Patrick, in an earlier thread you gave the chassis numbers of the Schlumpf 412's as 412150 and 412151, and in the same thread 412151 for Bonetto and 412152 for Daetwyler. What is correct now?

#14 Michael Müller

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 11:44

And again somewhere else Stu gives for Bonetto 412037/412151, and for Daetwyler 412038/412152 (chassis/engine).
So can we finally finally consider 037/038 as the chassis numbers, and 151/152 as the engine numbers?

#15 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 12:34

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Patrick, in an earlier thread you gave the chassis numbers of the Schlumpf 412's as 412150 and 412151, and in the same thread 412151 for Bonetto and 412152 for Daetwyler. What is correct now?


Did I? :blush: Oops, sorry, it was a typo. Moore gives 151 and 152, and that matches Doug's list of chassis for the Schlumpf cars. There's a single 412 at Mulhouse. As far as I know, Bonetto's car 412151 disappeared after its chassis had supposedly been used as base for a Nardi special. The question of existence of a third 412 remains open.

But the chassis numbers are 151 and 152, not 037 and 038. So, it's somewhat, er, heretic to name a car after a chassis number it has not, even if an educated guess leads to the thought that they should have been, chronologically, 037 and 038 IF THEY WERE 2.9s and NOT 412s!

Chassis ( or chassis plate) number are one thing, engine numbers another (as for 2.9s they are numbered 4120xx for the 2.9As -412001 to 412009-, and 4220xx for 2.9Bs - original engines sometimes match the chassis number, sometimes not), and frame number a third thing (in this case, frames are numbered 4320xx). What's confusing is that 412 is both the prefix of 2.9s chassis, without identified reason, and model designation for the 12C cars.

I mean that if Alfa Romeo in several circumstances messed with chassis numbers, be it for identified reasons (for example customs papers), we cannot ignore the #actually stamped on the car! They chose to give to 412s a serie independent from that of 2.9s and that's it.

#16 dretceterini

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 16:45

I have never examined a 412, so I do not know what the chassis numbers actually are.

Some sources say that they are actually modified 8c2900A chassis, so 037 and 038 wouldn't be correct if that were true.

If they were indeed built in sequence, after most of the 8c2900Bs, then 037 and 038 might be correct.

We still do not have any real evidence if 2, 3, or 4 cars were built, and if any (or all) of them are really modified 8c2900A chassis or based on 8c2900B chassis, with 12 cylinder motors.

As to the motors themselves, I have seen it said that they were 12c36 (4 liters) motors in some sources and 12c37 (4.5 liters) motors in others!

I believe that one of the 412s was rebodied in a barchetta style by Vignale for the 1951 Mille Miglia and it ran as race number 427, but it has (as far as I'm aware), nothing to do with Nardi.

I'm not sure what Patrick is speaking of when he mentions a Nardi/Alfa special in connection with the 412s. The Nardi Alfas are different cars, and as far as I'm aware the Nardi/Alfas built were:

A spider with cycle fenders and an odd shark-like nose built circa 1936 with a 6c2300 motor (50076?)

3 spiders with cycle fenders built in 1948 (9481, 9485, 94811)

A coupe which ran as race number 646 in the 1949 MM (9484)

A second coupe that ran as race number 647 in the 1949 MM
(slightly different coachwork;chassis ?)

A 1100cc Nardi barchetta spider that had an Alfa 6c2000 Nardi modified motor suffed into in in the late 1980s, but is in no way a real Nardi/Alfa. This car has changed hands a number of times in the last gew years.

A POSSIBLE 3rd coupe that looked identical to race number 646

A POSSIBLE 4th cycle fendered spider built in 1948.





#17 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 18:15

Originally posted by dretceterini
I have never examined a 412, so I do not know what the chassis numbers actually are.


We still do not have any real evidence if 2, 3, or 4 cars were built, and if any (or all) of them are really modified 8c2900A chassis or based on 8c2900B chassis, with 12 cylinder motors.


I'm afraid that the 2.9A vs. 2.9B difference makes less sense than one would expect. Chassis plate for 412007 (renumbered 412002 - Simon's car) says 2900B, while it's obviously a 2900A. 412031's plate says Tipo C. So I would not give excessive importance to A vs. B question.


As to the motors themselves, I have seen it said that they were 12c36 (4 liters) motors in some sources and 12c37 (4.5 liters) motors in others!


Unless someone is allowed to check into the Mulhouse engine for plain vs. roller bearings, the other way would be to count where were the existing 12C37 and 12C36 engines in 1939. The motorboat ones seems to be of 36 type, but the 37 should have been downsized to 312s in 1938. And one 4.5 was still there for Varzi's car in 1948.


I believe that one of the 412s was rebodied in a barchetta style by Vignale for the 1951 Mille Miglia and it ran as race number 427, but it has (as far as I'm aware), nothing to do with Nardi.

I'm not sure what Patrick is speaking of when he mentions a Nardi/Alfa special in connection with the 412s. The Nardi Alfas are different cars, and as far as I'm aware the Nardi/Alfas built were:


Vignale's 51MM car is 151. That's the one Simon says it's rumoured to have been the base for a Nardi. I don't know anything more on the subject.

#18 dretceterini

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 20:46

There was an article in Road and Track on the vignale bodied car, circa 1954. The car was "found" in Volpini's shop in Milan, and actually driven around on the streets.

About the same time, the car was in an ad in Road and Track, with an asking price of something like $10,000.

It was offered to Henry Wessells at a reduced price, but he passed on the offer. I have heard for years that the car went to either Spain or central America..

#19 dretceterini

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 14:24

Futher thoughts on the Tipo 412:

In 1937, Jano was dismissed from Alfa, partially due to the lack of success with the 12c37 GP car. In 1938, the GP formula was being changed to 3 liters, so what could be done with the 4.1 12c36 motors and the 4.5 12c37 motors. No reason to throw them on thye scrap heap, but some reluctance to put them in a sports car for a 24 hour race such as Spa or LeMans, due to reliability issues. Hence, some of these motors were put into older sports car chassis still floating around. The 8c2900A chassis that were floating around simply had the 12c37 motors stuck into them, and became the Tipo 412s. Still no definite information as to if 2, 3 or 4 cars were built. Information obtained over the years leadfs me to believe that there were either 2 or 3, and not 4, as stated in Fusi. In 1938,1939, and 1940, Alfa ran in most races Tipo 256/6c2500s, 8c2900Bs, and cars other than the 412, due to possible reliability issues. Even with not using the 412 at LeMans 1938, the 8c2900B coupe was MILES ahead before it encountered trouble, and it was basically a 3 year old design!

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#20 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 11:51

I would say that a 3-years old design was pretty new, those times! :)

The fact seems to me that there were more 4064cc 12C36 engines built, than 4.5 litre 1937 12Cs.

At least one of the 36 engines went in a boat racer, the Mariella of Ing. Passarin.

I would guess that the 312 engines were former, large engines downsized: Alfa used then to recycle as much material as possible rather than cas new blocks, etc. See for instance the very few 158 blocks ever made, repaired and raced until 1955 (in boats).

Your theory of putting the 12C into existing chassis is an obvious point, but you miss the point of the racing rules in 1939. Sports ars races should have been limited to unsupercharged cars, but actually local organizers made what they wanted to. The unsupercharged rule was a way to protect the large capacity French sports cars, while it was expected Alfa be compelled to use "plebeian" :rolleyes: 6C2500s. But they turned out at the Anvers GP 1939 with the 412 (412 didn't exist in 1938, nor was it needed since the blown 8C2.9 provided as much power as the unblown 12C; Anvers was first time race entry, but already used for Mille Miglia practice in Brescia earlier). That caused many discussions as the 412 was not on sale for the public.

Without evidence of any third or fourth 412, we should stick to the fact there are only two identified, and wonder if Fusi got it wrong when stating they were 4...

#21 dretceterini

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 21:44

It's my understanding that the 312 uses a different block than the 12c36 or 12c37; but I could certainly be mistaken...

#22 Dutchy

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 11:57

Originally posted by dretceterini

The Le Mans coupe was once owned by my uncle (actually a cousin, but we knew him as an uncle) Johnny Lurani, in the late 1960s. I'm not sure how it got from him to Sparken, who traded it to the museum for a 158/159 GP car.


The Le Mans coupe was for many years in the Doune Collection in Scotland. I believe Mike Sparken acquired the car from Lord Doune

JH

#23 dretceterini

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 17:34

I've rechecked Fusi, and there are some errors on the pages covering the Tipo 412.

First, it says the car only ran with carbs. That is an error. It did run with the supercharger.
Second, it says the carbs were updraft. Obviously, they were downdraft.

It also gives the date of 1939 through 1949 for construction, and the number built as being 4.

Is it possible that 2 cars were started to be converted to Tipo 412s but never completed after WW2? Is it possible that the last two cars are still floating around out there somewhere?

One car is in the Schlumpf museum; supposedly chassis number 412038 (obviously renumbered if it began as a 8c2900A), supposedly with motor 412152. I have not personally inspected the car to verify the serial numbers, and if anyone can help in regard to this, it would be greatly appreciated!

The second car, which ran rebodied by Vignale in the 1951 Mille Miglia is supposedly 412037 with motor 412151, but this car disappeared in the early 1960s, after having been offered to Henry Wessells and advertised in Road and Track.

There was an article in R&T in the early 1960s about this car being at Volpini in Milan, and driving it though the streets of that city. Mark Wallack says he saw the car at Volpini's shop, circa 1959, but called it a Nardi/Alfa. There is no evidence that Nardi was involved with this car in any manner.

Rumors exist that this car is in Spain or in South America.

#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 19:24

Stu - the Schlumpf/Mulhouse chassis and engine numbers I cited came from the Musee's own inventory/stock list compiled and verified by DSJ - quite apart from the Musee staff - soon after the Government's adoption/sequestration of the problem...

DCN

#25 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 27 March 2006 - 20:57

Originally posted by dretceterini
I've rechecked Fusi, and there are some errors on the pages covering the Tipo 412.

First, it says the car only ran with carbs. That is an error. It did run with the supercharger.
Second, it says the carbs were updraft. Obviously, they were downdraft.


OK for the carbs, but they ran supercharged in private hands postwar with Daetwyler. At Luxembourg 1939, I'm still not 100% sure Farina's 412, DNF, was running supercharged, but it might be so since the organizers allowed for blowers (where international rules would not that year). However, "typical" 412s were suited for those rules, hence the swap of s/c 8Cs for unblown 12Cs.

It also gives the date of 1939 through 1949 for construction, and the number built as being 4.

Is it possible that 2 cars were started to be converted to Tipo 412s but never completed after WW2? Is it possible that the last two cars are still floating around out there somewhere?


Or a further couple of 2.9 chassis were transformed into 412s, possibly even only to be reverted to 8Cs? This is pure speculation so far.


One car is in the Schlumpf museum; supposedly chassis number 412038 (obviously renumbered if it began as a 8c2900A), supposedly with motor 412152. I have not personally inspected the car to verify the serial numbers, and if anyone can help in regard to this, it would be greatly appreciated!

The second car, which ran rebodied by Vignale in the 1951 Mille Miglia is supposedly 412037 with motor 412151, but this car disappeared in the early 1960s, after having been offered to Henry Wessells and advertised in Road and Track.


At the risk of repeating myself, I would wait for Simon Moore updated 2.9 book before taking for sure the 412037 and 412038 identities. He quoted those numbers just as guesses, and I seem to understand he has reviewed his mind about some of those educated guesses. So we shall stick with the chassis 412152/engine 412152 identity, as on the car plate, while knowing that the chassis number was granted to match the engine's one, just as on the 12C racer 51204.

And BTW, 412037 and 38 CANNOT be 2900As, but 2900Bs.

#26 dretceterini

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 00:56

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


OK for the carbs, but they ran supercharged in private hands postwar with Daetwyler. At Luxembourg 1939, I'm still not 100% sure Farina's 412, DNF, was running supercharged, but it might be so since the organizers allowed for blowers (where international rules would not that year). However, "typical" 412s were suited for those rules, hence the swap of s/c 8Cs for unblown 12Cs.



Or a further couple of 2.9 chassis were transformed into 412s, possibly even only to be reverted to 8Cs? This is pure speculation so far.




At the risk of repeating myself, I would wait for Simon Moore updated 2.9 book before taking for sure the 412037 and 412038 identities. He quoted those numbers just as guesses, and I seem to understand he has reviewed his mind about some of those educated guesses. So we shall stick with the chassis 412152/engine 412152 identity, as on the car plate, while knowing that the chassis number was granted to match the engine's one, just as on the 12C racer 51204.

And BTW, 412037 and 38 CANNOT be 2900As, but 2900Bs.



All true; and yes, I realize that this is all speculation at this point and time, and that chassis number 412037 and 038 should be 8c2900Bs....but there is still a remote possability that they could be renumbered 8c2900A chassis. I'm trying to put together a story on the cars, and want to speculate as little as possible, but there is still so much we do not know to be fact or not. Magro at the Alfa Archives has been unable to provide any more information, and I am awaiting Simon's response to an e-mail...

Stu

#27 biz5300

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 01:46

Just a quick comment.. Italian Fornais books on Italian Carrozziere supports the Simon Moore theory about Nardi... It says clearly that the Bonetto driven 4500cc Alfa was rebodied without the engine inte to the Plymouth/Nardi.. Part of the raggio azzurro series... I am surprised you dont seem to have read this but it is in Italian however the year of manufacture in Fornai is wrong.. it says it was built 1956, but obvously looking at the design , it slots nicely into 1961, when the Vignale car disappeared..... will post article..

Nik Hannah

Sweden[IMG]http://img241.images...mouthsx7.th.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img241.images...plymouthsx7.jpg[/IMG]

#28 harryglorydays

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:56

The ex-Serri 1938 MM winner is now in the hands of Ralph Lauren, and is being restored.


Actually, the ex-Serri 1938 Biondetti MM winner is on display at the Simeone Foundation Automotive Museum in Philadelphia along with many other interesting cars.

Info at: www.SimeoneMuseum.org