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#51 Feliks

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 21:39

Originally posted by 12.9:1


Most powerful - Most Efficient


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Too complet,but why this crakshaft are very long??
Eg. Radial engine not using in Navy?
http://www.pilotfrie...aero_radial.htm

Engine radial in horizontal position may by??

Name this engine : Multiboxer

How much weight valve in this engine??
Regards Andrew :)

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#52 Feliks

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 21:55

If question " short valve " or problem with place second crankshaft:




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Off course possible different stroke at exhaust and intake valve;


This nonconventional track off piston displacement. :rolleyes:
:D :D

#53 TDIMeister

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 16:19

Originally posted by Feliks
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The problem I see with the above design is with the almost perpetual side thrust loading of the piston against the cylinder bore. Piston big-end and main bearing lubrication could also be a problem due to the one-sided motion (do a force analysis on a polar graph!) and the huge added inertial forces of all the additional masses moving all over the place. :)

This design is somewhat similar to a VCR concept by FEV (my former employer) where an eccentric takes the place if the crankshaft in the above animation to effect the adjustability for compression ratio. However, the crankshaft remains in the same location directly under the cylinder bore centerline (and can also be offset) to further minimize side thrust loading and the resultant bore distortion and uneven piston/cylinder wear.

#54 Feliks

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 21:54

Originally posted by TDIMeister


Piston big-end and main bearing lubrication could also be a problem due to the one-sided motion (do a force analysis on a polar graph!) and the huge added inertial forces of all the additional masses moving all over the place. :)


Thanks for professional question.Its is no maximum excellent proposition. Its only "natural interesting detail ", for possible various design.
But by the way ,additional masses not very big problem , because valve crankshaft are going twice slowly, and forces are four little.One CH physicist elegant describes this advantages: intake / inertia is better for valve piston than main piston
Another "natural interesting detail " are crankshaft less design, right now see in other place.
At 1925 Polish designer Tadeusz Tanski describe six cylinder some one :
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Onother way ?? :) :)

Simile conception:
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:)

#55 Wolf

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 22:44

Well, I don't see emissions being much of a problem with Feliks' engine- there is a number of valve types for 2T engines that could be perfect for the job (planar valves, reed valves, &c). Actually, I have fiddled with the idea of VVT for 2T valves, but after making a design, dropped it since 2T engines were forced almost into extinction...

Stian- I think the engine You presented doesn't neccessarily need a blower, a numer of 2T engines uses crankcase for that (downward movement of the piston forces the air from crankcase into the cylinder). BTW, I think Andrew was asking You how to change intake timing, and the answer is in my above post- put a planar valve on a crankshaft and rotating it one way or another...

#56 Feliks

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 09:46

Originally posted by Wolf :wave:


... how to change intake timing, and the answer is in my above post- put a planar valve on a crankshaft and rotating it one way or another...

:smoking: My vision change compression ratio or intake timing....
Posted Image

#57 TDIMeister

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 11:08

I like the way you think, Feliks! :) :up:

Although I wouldn't use a belt to drive an opposing crank/piston setup as in your original proposed valving scheme, but for normal camshaft/poppet valve valvetrains it's an elegantly simple design to achieve VVT that I know works because I've seen the effects of a stretching timing belt on injection pump timing in my TDI engine as the eccentric tensioner, which works on a somewhat similar principle as above, takes up the slack.

#58 AndrewD

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 11:11

Feliks,

That looks similar to the original porche variocam mechanism.

I dont completely understand it, but by varying the chain tension you can phase the camshaft either in the advance or retard direction from base timing.

However i dare say it has its drawbacks. Control and adjustability would be hard, which is one bonus to the new hydraulic vane and screw type phasers.

#59 TDIMeister

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 11:17

Originally posted by AndrewD
Control and adjustability would be hard, which is one bonus to the new hydraulic vane and screw type phasers.


Control and adjustability are amazingly easy; it's just some simple geometry and a linear actuator, which can be electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, whatever. :) The thing to consider is belt- or chain stretch as those parts wear, or the wearing of the polymer chain guides as those will effect the timing.

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#60 Stian1979

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 13:43

Originally posted by Wolf


Stian- I think the engine You presented doesn't neccessarily need a blower, a numer of 2T engines uses crankcase for that (downward movement of the piston forces the air from crankcase into the cylinder). BTW, I think Andrew was asking You how to change intake timing, and the answer is in my above post- put a planar valve on a crankshaft and rotating it one way or another...


Yes you could use the crankcase, but then you get new problems with multi cylinder set up's and you would not get as good lubrication as you could with aspiration and crank separeated.

Also you would nead oil to mix in air to lubricate bearings and sutch making more carbons in the exhaust.

With eliminating crancase from the aspiration system you can inject the lubrication oil trough holes in the cylinder waal instead reducing the amount off oil neaded to keep a load bearing oil film on the cylinder waal.

#61 jo-briggs

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 22:00

Originally posted by Feliks

:smoking: My vision change compression ratio or intake timing....
Posted Image


Been there, done that, in about 1980 - Porche subsequently thought to Patent something similar some 10 years later.

My original drawings, done in RoboSolid, were published in a short lived Auto Technology magazine. It took me about 5 minutes to think of the idea - I thought that it was so simple, someone must have already done it, so I never applied for a Patent! In my design for Twin Cams there was a left to right slider which varied the phase of both cams in relation to the crankshaft, and a third roller between the cams which could, in conjunction with the lateral control, phase the camshafts in relation to each other and the crankshaft at the same time. I belive that I have the drawings on a 5.25" floppy, but I'm not sure I have a programme that can read them anymore - the magazine is, I think, somewhere in the loft under nearly 20 years of dust!

I also did two further designs using a) a differential, and b) epicyclic gears.

The differential system works like this:

Assume an old fashioned back axle, lock the propshaft and turn the RH wheel, the LH rotates in the opposite direction at the same speed as the RH wheel, right? If you lock the RH wheel and rotate the propshaft one revolution, the LH wheel rotates about 1/4 of a turn (Assuming a 4:1 Diff ratio), agreed? If you rotate the RH wheel so that the LH wheel is turning, then rotate the propshaft 1/4, turn the LH wheel will still be rotating at the same speed as the RH wheel, but 90 degrees out of phase. Now imagine that the RH wheel is the Timing Gear driven by the crankshaft, and the LH wheel is the camshaft, and that your Pinion Gear is servo controlled, and Bob's your Uncle.

The Epicyclic system is very similar, the Sun Gear is on the Camshaft, the Planetary gears are driven from the Crankshaft, and the phasing is servo controlled via the Ring Gear.

The latter two systems are so much simpler than the oil pressure driven Alfa Romeo system, using a helical plunger, that originally caused me to consider methods, that I again assumed that they had already been thought of - I could have been rich; rich I tell you: rich beyond the dreams of avarice - or ripped off by the big boys.........

#62 jo-briggs

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 19:10

A sketch of my variable timing with a cam belt or chain.

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Yes I know that the crank pulley should be 1/2 the size!!!! It was a quick sketch......

#63 Feliks

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 21:32

Originally posted by jo-briggs .....

Yes I know that the crank pulley should be 1/2 the size!!!! It was a quick sketch......


Quick and right: lower crank-valve , and upper two work normal cylinders. Take power and cloth on valve-crankshaft.!!! For me once of designs piston valve.Advantages- two little RPM and two more torque on take power :D :D :D

#64 TDIMeister

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 22:02

Originally posted by jo-briggs
[B]A sketch of my variable timing with a cam belt or chain.

Posted Image

If I understand your illustration correctly, the top vertically moving idler affects the phasing timing between the two camshafts, while the two horizontal idlers adjust the total timing advance and retard of both cams simultaneously.

The problem with your apparent independently moving idlers is that as they move relative to each other, the belt tension changes!! With Feliks' scheme, where the device moves with only one degree of freedom symmetrically on both sides, the belt path length remains constant, and therefore so does belt tension.

Also remember that belts and chains require a certain minimum "wrap-around" or engagement angle around a pulley, usually more than 180 degrees depending on the transmitted torque and a number of other factors. That's why idlers are strategically placed where they are.

(Currently working at Gates...)

#65 jo-briggs

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 10:20

You will note that I hadn't linked the two idlers, thus allowing them to be adjusted independently of each other to take care of belt tension.

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Corrected picture.....

I must say, this "imageshack" thingy is a wheeze - in answer to a previous question, they probably pay for it with pop-up boxes.

And while we're on the subject, I would estimate that since joining this forum, my SPAM mail has gone up 10 fold!

#66 jo-briggs

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 12:11

Originally posted by TDIMeister

Also remember that belts and chains require a certain minimum "wrap-around" or engagement angle around a pulley, usually more than 180 degrees depending on the transmitted torque and a number of other factors. That's why idlers are strategically placed where they are.

(Currently working at Gates...)


I very much doubt that most belt driven TwinCams have "Over 180 degrees" wrap round, in fact I've never seen pictures of any with a 180 deg wrap round. Some crankshaft pulleys approach that, but casm pullys can be about 100/110 Deg.

A quick look at a Cosworth BDA cutaway cofirms this:

http://www.spannerfo...rth-bda/bda.gif

#67 Feliks

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 14:29

Better are boxing or inventor ??? :D

#68 TDIMeister

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 18:35

Originally posted by jo-briggs
[B]

I very much doubt that most belt driven TwinCams have "Over 180 degrees" wrap round, in fact I've never seen pictures of any with a 180 deg wrap round. Some crankshaft pulleys approach that, but casm pullys can be about 100/110 Deg.

I was mistaken about the figure of 180 degrees for belt wraparound. Sorry -- I don't work in the belts department but am in the same office with colleagues who design them as well as tensioner systems for OEMs. You pick some things up from osmosis just from being in the vicinity. :)

My point was, exact numbers notwithstanding, that a certain minimum wraparound was necessary, and having any such scheme as a moving idler to effect variable timing as you suggested results in a change in the wraparound angle, and perhaps more importantly, in actual belt tension. These are not unaddressable issues but should nonetheless be considered, and I don't know if this was in fact thought about, so I just wanted to bring it to light.


Regards,

#69 GeorgeTheCar

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 17:50

But wait there's more!!!

http://www.scuderigroup.com/

and once again the investores are more important than building even 1!

#70 Feliks

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 22:05

Originally posted by TDIMeister :wave:


The problem I see with the above design is with the almost perpetual side thrust loading of the piston against the cylinder bore. Piston big-end and main bearing lubrication could also be a problem due to the one-sided motion (do a force analysis on a polar graph!) and the huge added inertial forces of all the additional masses moving all over the place. :)

This design is somewhat similar to a VCR concept by FEV (my former employer) where an eccentric takes the place if the crankshaft in the above animation to effect the adjustability for compression ratio. However, the crankshaft remains in the same location directly under the cylinder bore centerline (and can also be offset) to further minimize side thrust loading and the resultant bore distortion and uneven piston/cylinder wear.

:smoking:
If don't like a" short valve", put at valve "square" valve piston:
View Square Valve Piston

Most advantages this conception :easy water coled piston (especial exhaust) , eliminates piston rocking ,roller bearings slide piston , etc.
View Pivotal piston

Colling water piston made very low NOx,;Please, use from catalysts platinum for electrolyze :D :D

Sorry , I live 30 years in "piston valve reality" :)

Regards Andrew

#71 Feliks

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 22:06

Possible mutation:
Pivot piston little modification. Using in four-stroke “piston “ square valve.
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One big advantage have “piston Pivot”. Pistons not have force: Nm !!!
This reaction is only in bearing piston !!
Posted Image


Another, piston no need lubrication , lubrication only need “Rings” (sliding seals)
Next my modification: sliding seals put no in piston. This seals put in cylinder !!
Advantages: cylinder are LIFETIME , ma-by building only aluminum cast .
Because on cylinder no sliding piston and seals, made aluminum, excellent conduct heat !!
But piston must make steel cast. (Or steel surface)
Then piston and seals only need change at refit engine , without any mechanical engined.
Theoretical, only need to change part to repair engine!
In this version lubrications are need only seals, sure much little in conventional piston.
Ma-by using conventional popped valve too.
Are you like square pistons now ??

#72 Feliks

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 14:04

Originally posted by Feliks

Are you like square pistons now ??


I like square pistons on this configuration: :rolleyes:

Posted Image

Remember this configuration without oil lubrication.

Best regards Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#73 Feliks

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 14:30

I like square piston , and don't like many rod and long crankshaft::D:D
SIMPLE ENGINE:
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Two stroke mutation:
Posted Image
Base animation:
BASE PIVOT ANIMATION

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D:D:D

#74 Feliks

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 19:24

:smoking: :smoking: Posted Image

Important question: "cylinder" ,house of seals, and "piston" are very well cooling water.
And temperature this elements are only few grad. more than temperature water. Maybe no Teflon, good material e.g .VITON®
Regards Andrew :) :)

#75 Feliks

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 13:04

Originally posted by Feliks
Important question: "cylinder" ,house of seals, and "piston" are very well cooling water.
And temperature this elements are only few grad. more than temperature water. Maybe no Teflon, good material e.g .VITON®
Regards Andrew :) :)

Sometime conservative are better :smoking: :



Posted Image

#76 dead_eye

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 17:31

it mjght be the long day but i cant see how the engine above compresses the mix lol and why have valves in the comprression and power chamber

#77 Feliks

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 09:52

In large scale are better see advantages or disadvantages :) :)

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Option - ceramic seals and water lubrication.

Regards Andrew :smoking:

#78 imaginesix

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 16:15

Originally posted by Feliks
I like square pistons on this configuration:

Borat! Is that you? :wave:

#79 Feliks

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 11:18

Originally posted by imaginesix
Borat! Is that you? :wave:


Yes , and I am find another !!! One in Grece- He has made beautiful two animations for nothing .:

New four stroke

around engine

Regards :cat:

Ps. Whiskas in Poland is very expensive . :wave:

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#80 ciaoduc1

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 13:20

I like that first animation.
Just out of curisosity, how might you figure out what RPM it's going when it's fast.
I've always wanted to see what the inside of an actual engine looks like when it's running. Ages ago I saw some sort of video demonstration of a NASCAR (or similar) engine without the cylinder heads being turned at 3000rpm. The guy wrote his name with a pencil across the pistons.

#81 Feliks

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 20:04

Originally posted by Feliks
In large scale are better see advantages or disadvantages :) :)

Posted Image

Problem with crankshaft deflection are little:deflection

What you thing , are possible make big marine diesels in my garage?

Andrew :rolleyes:

#82 Feliks

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 10:13

What you thing , are possible make big marine diesels in my garage?


Certainly according to following system :smoking:

Posted Image

Andrew :rolleyes:

Ps. Only one precise finish make this metode:Orbital machining

#83 dead_eye

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 21:12

Now i see- i thought the partitions rotated aswell lol

A very good design for the reasons you point out but a few points id like to add-

If the partitions between chambers were attached to the engine block they would imho be strong, better cooled and less complicated around the centre pin assembly

Your going to have ubbbbbbbbber trouble getting even the best machinest to make up those curved edges to the exact sealing tolerances with massive friction once the engines warmed up. However an apex seal like the wankel engine uses ont he leading and trailing edge of each 'blade' facing opposite ways would do the job brilliantly i think.

Also you show the larger engines still running only one rod and imho thats going to put massivley un even stress on the front of the engine and i think at least one either end and maybe one in the middle on larger engines to reduce torque twist in the crank and crank sag would be much safer

#84 Feliks

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 22:15

Sorry , I put few step back, but ma by interesting some :

Posted Image

And interesting, too ,because it can be characteristic valve pistons are better:

Posted Image

:rolleyes:

#85 Feliks

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Posted 05 December 2006 - 10:06

At this side look better: Posted Image

Interesting text in blog about engine(december ) :Blog

#86 revetec

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 03:26

Originally posted by Tooheavy
Revetec Crap Shit Rubbish Steaming Pile Flawed Bad Too Heavy


Our new X4 2.4 litre engine is under 100kg in billet. The block is 160mm front to back. We have reached efficiency levels of the Toyota Prius engine per litre and will exceed this over the next month.

Too heavy?....BMWs 2.5 litre engine is 171kg....Our new 2.4 litre engine is 50% the total size and is currently 60% of the weight. We will soon lighten the engine down to 80-85kg making it half the weight.
Latest news on our website www.revetec.com shows a CAD drawing of our latest engine.

#87 Greg Locock

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 00:56

Well, you do realise that the Prius has a relatively low power output for its swept volume, don't you?

I don't regard that as a particularly useful metric anyway, much more important is power/installation volume, and power/weight, power/cost and full and part throttle efficiency, and reliability.

http://home.iprimus......n Broker.html

Why are the trilobe cams shown as phased in some of these photos?

http://www.nsxa.com....s/021717767.PDF for the torque curve

#88 imaginesix

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 20:15

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Well, you do realise that the Prius has a relatively low power output for its swept volume, don't you?

I don't regard that as a particularly useful metric anyway, much more important is power/installation volume, and power/weight, power/cost and full and part throttle efficiency, and reliability.

http://home.iprimus......n Broker.html

Why are the trilobe cams shown as phased in some of these photos?

http://www.nsxa.com....s/021717767.PDF for the torque curve

The 'offset' look of the trilobes in some pics is because they are counter-rotating.

Am I right to interpret that data as telling us that the revetec delivers more peak power at full throttle, (presumably with lower fuel consumption as it is achieved with a smaller displacement and lower rpm peak) and it suggests that it is a more tractable engine at full throttle?

Sounds good but it's not everything, as you say (especially given the standard it's being compared to). Though from the look of the engine there shouldn't be a significant difference in volume/weight compared to a standard crankshaft engine. Cost, part-throttle efficiency and reliability remain to be seen then.

On the other hand (and this is the dreamer in me talking now) as the regenerative component of hybrid systems becomes more capable, the IC engine component can be downsized so that it is increasingly used at full or near-full throttle. Thus part-throttle efficiency may start to move down the list of priorities somewhat, which makes the comparison to the Prius engine a little more interesting. Not to suggest that there is anything wrong with the part-throttle performance of the engine, of course.

#89 imaginesix

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 20:39

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Why are the trilobe cams shown as phased in some of these photos?

Oh, see what you mean now.
http://www.revetec.c...&size=_original

#90 Feliks

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 00:33

Some problems with pooped springs.Video 2 Mb ,what can make springs:Valve springs :wave: :smoking:

#91 revetec

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 08:03

The pictures linked in previous posts are old engines.

Our new 2.4 litre X4 Aircraft engine project is what everyone should review. Our engine layout is now very compact and very different. We plan to fuel inject for automotive uses.

Posted Image

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Engine block from the side.
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Posted Image

#92 Feliks

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Posted 16 February 2007 - 23:43

I see simile animation for Revtec :animation
And another simile nice animation :animation2
and many more.
I think so help review this idea. :wave: :wave:

#93 Feliks

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 16:38

I have a new dilemma : this engine are crank-less or no? :smoking:
Posted Image

Regards Andrew :wave:

#94 Powersteer

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 17:07

Feliks, instead of totally designing a radical new engine why not try do a new con-rod or valve system or variable something before trying a whole new engine to start.

:cool:

#95 Feliks

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:14

Originally posted by Powersteer
Feliks, instead of totally designing a radical new engine why not try do a new con-rod or valve system or variable something before trying a whole new engine to start.

:cool:


Hi, my big trouble: I am not sure , what this engine looking...... :) :) :smoking:
Many new ways are open.... :|


ps. Do you dream about new motorcycle ?

#96 Catalina Park

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Posted 11 March 2007 - 07:52

I found this one and thought it needed a home. :cool:

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Posted Image
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#97 Stian1979

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 13:57

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I found this one and thought it needed a home. :cool:

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I don't know what to say.

#98 Catalina Park

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 10:41

A rotary engine with valve bounce. :cool:

Thanks Stian1979 for bringing it back up, I thought it was going to dissapear without comment.

#99 Powersteer

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 11:38

Big difference from a conventional rotary is that it does not drag the charge around, it would be more economical than the current rotary design since it would operate more like a four stroke. Just think how many valves can be added.

:cool:

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#100 Moon Tricky

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Posted 25 March 2007 - 17:21

Originally posted by Powersteer
Big difference from a conventional rotary is that it does not drag the charge around, it would be more economical than the current rotary design since it would operate more like a four stroke. Just think how many valves can be added.

:cool:


The combustion chamber is still a pretty funny shape, and the face seals are going to be a bit awkward. But you do also get better control of the exhaust/intake. A Wankel necessarily opens its exhaust port before the end of the power stroke, which is less than ideal, although it compensates by leaving its intake port open the same length of time through the compression stroke. This engine could conceivably run on Atkinson/Miller cycle.