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#1001 gruntguru

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:56

Feliks - just to make it clear - are you saying that a 'bike and rider can be powered by their own slipstream?

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#1002 Feliks

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 18:55

Feliks - just to make it clear - are you saying that a 'bike and rider can be powered by their own slipstream?


Of course, riding a bike is Their Own slipstream. How well do you understand the use of this flow only from the wheel with a diameter of 600 mm will result in a resistance front (much less than the flat circle with the diameter of 600 mm because we have here a case of laminar flow (something like what flow and air resistance makes wing aircraft). Even the case ... pretty flat circle with the diameter, is in terms of its resistance to the flow relatively small ... You can almost tell by mounting a flat circle about the size of the handlebars and try to ride him at the speed of 25 km / h .....
And now if the bike mount venturi nozzle with a diameter of 600 mm and those shown in the drawing lengths in the placement of the rat in her throat get about 350 watts of electricity .... I think the amount of energy may well help us rides on the bike ... So tell us about mathematics ... and Andrew

some help http://www.thepetros...PetroStreet.pdf

in the case of a bicycle just venturi with hard polystyrene ... I'm thinking that the resistance of the nozzle is larger than the diameter of a circle with the alternator rotor, which in this particular case, 19 cm ...
or you can even put in a second alternatotr extended portion cylindrical nozzle teeth at high speeds also have more enegii to pick ... Because quantity of energy which will get the cancer speed cubing

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1003 Feliks

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 20:42

And here's a rat, even now encased pipe .. Just make cones .. Aero Albaros plane.

Posted Image

:wave:

#1004 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 22:30

I'm afraid adding a venturi to a bicycle will, in the best case, provide extra resistance due to the additional skin friction, and usually add inertia recovery drag as well.



#1005 Feliks

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:11

I'm afraid adding a venturi to a bicycle will, in the best case, provide extra resistance due to the additional skin friction, and usually add inertia recovery drag as well.


If you do not believe math, you will definitely believe in ghosts and afraid .. And we are writing to you just what you fear ... .... :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 05 June 2013 - 23:12.


#1006 gruntguru

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:38

We all believe math (and thermodynamics) which tell us that the energy generated by any air-driven device you add to a vehicle, will be less than the energy lost to added drag.

#1007 Feliks

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 23:55


This is a photo of a helicopter engine 400 hp in comparison to my hand. For this engine, only air flows, and its mass generates the power to the motor shaft. Mass of fuel burned is negligible .. If, for example, in a wind tunnel, we will do the same movement entrusted by this engine, as during normal operation in a helicopter, you will be given a power take also the same power. 1 KG air flow gives us the 100 Hp engine PTO shaft ..

Posted Image


I would like to remind my project, called the internal Venturi nozzle. Taking the ratio of change in cross-sectional area, we obtain a nozzle, which has a maximum diameter of the turbine and thus gives the maximum torque greater than the traditional nozzle.

Posted Image

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1008 Greg Locock

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:05

If you do not believe math, you will definitely believe in ghosts and afraid .. And we are writing to you just what you fear ... .... :smoking:



When you start posting sensible math I'll start believing it. There are some intriguing things you can do with turbines and wind, such as

http://en.wikipedia....rd_(land_yacht)

but even that one won't propel itself without wind.



#1009 Kelpiecross

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:35

Felix - your sums might be correct but I suspect some of your assumptions are not.
You seem to be assuming that if the wind (or slipstream) has a certain value at the entrance to the venturi then the venturi calculations say it will have a certain velocity in the "throat" (narrowest part) of the venturi. But I think these calculations assume that the mass flow of air about to enter the venturi is the same as that which exits the rear of the venturi. This would be the case in a typical application where the venturi assembly is used to measure flows in pipes etc. In real life (in the wind or on a 'bike etc.) the air would not be forced to flow through the whole venturi assembly - it would just slow down or flow around the outside of the venturi.
To get results like those you claim would require some sort of positive displacement blower actually forcing a certain mass flow of air into the venturi - this would require horsepower well in excess of that which could be recovered by a RAT (or even a MOUSE) in the throat of the venturi.



#1010 Feliks

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:27

Felix - your sums might be correct but I suspect some of your assumptions are not.
You seem to be assuming that if the wind (or slipstream) has a certain value at the entrance to the venturi then the venturi calculations say it will have a certain velocity in the "throat" (narrowest part) of the venturi. But I think these calculations assume that the mass flow of air about to enter the venturi is the same as that which exits the rear of the venturi. This would be the case in a typical application where the venturi assembly is used to measure flows in pipes etc. In real life (in the wind or on a 'bike etc.) the air would not be forced to flow through the whole venturi assembly - it would just slow down or flow around the outside of the venturi.
To get results like those you claim would require some sort of positive displacement blower actually forcing a certain mass flow of air into the venturi - this would require horsepower well in excess of that which could be recovered by a RAT (or even a MOUSE) in the throat of the venturi.



That, however, your fears are rather intuitive level So possibly there should dispel them. So this jet nozzle throat big speed, but also there is a reduced pressure in relation to the prevailing around. It is the throat draws the air .. and the user causes the air entering the nozzle. If you enter this course must go. It's just that participates in the formation of wnergii whole mass of air, which is contained in the entire nozzle. No such performance car exhausts are made up of equal pipes, but that there is entrusted mass flow creates a vacuum in the tube end which fall into gases and the formation of an additional vacuum, which improves the exchange charge in the cylinder ...
The size of the negative pressure depends on the saturated gas contained in the tube, and on its speed ... During resonance increases rapidly vacuum ..
Such assumptions are correct and they are real.

Such arguments belong to the species, the plane is heavier than air so impossible to fly ..

:wave:

Edited by Feliks, 06 June 2013 - 09:01.


#1011 Wuzak

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 09:00

You have also introduced a blockage into the system, which rather alters the air flow through the throat.

#1012 Feliks

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:23

In other forum :

I've got a bit of fiberglass and pvc pipe ine the garage.. What dimensions of venturi would I need to have, for a "windmill" electric generator, if the average windspeed in my area is 10-15 mph?


No thank you, finally, for a very specific question. Because of this specific not yet had my manual is not yet complete. But a few important tips I can already provide, for a good while I'm thinking about it already....



Posted Image
First units 10 and 15 miles is 16 km / h - 24 km / h or 4.5 m / s to 6.75 m / s

Now I think that should do the nozzle of the same size and calculations as in my post # 997.

Now this: the witrze 15 miles in the throat nozzle of dimensions we will have theoretical speed 167 miles (270 km / h) .. the valve on the power of the fan is due at the speed we can get even theoretically about 20 Hp


to get the power from the electric generator, you must already quite large in size,. I could barely fit for him to die in his throat. and it completely obscured. It must therefore be outside the nozzle and be driven by a toothed belt from the propeller., and this is the biggest problem.



Same cones and these dimensions can all be done the hard styrofoam by cutting the thermal cutting CNC polystyrene. Most important thing is that the external surface of the cone must be round, full, of the 1000 mm dimension. Theses external surface of the throat must have the dimension. So that the air nozzle was skipping necessarily the way to the straight line, otherwise may not have a good performance at all. All these figures are just patterns of cones. The figure pointed to the red line is the nozzle look like on the outside.


Posted Image

Why is it important to air bypassing the nozzle on the outside was the shortest path in a straight line? not because I'm imagining that the venturi nozzle is so very close to collapse like a normal airplane wing over and over. its aerodynamics will surely like this over and over again folded wings. wing and best for low speed is the lower edge of a straight line. here shown theoretically how to wrap the wing sites. Now Lifting force of this wing will also "wrapped" inside, creating a negative pressure in the whole nozzle .....

Posted Image

It's a rough ..

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 10 June 2013 - 10:04.


#1013 Wuzak

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:21

I believe you have Solidworks.

Do you have simulation? I suggest that you test your venturi tube in simulation, and see how the flow works, and how the airflow inside the initial parallel part of the tube does not match the freestream air.


#1014 Kelpiecross

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 13:38

I believe you have Solidworks.

Do you have simulation? I suggest that you test your venturi tube in simulation, and see how the flow works, and how the airflow inside the initial parallel part of the tube does not match the freestream air.


Or you could build a venturi system of the type you suggest and see how it performs - it shouldn't be too difficult to make one.

Even if it doesn't work as you claim (and I don't think it will) but has an efficiency about the same as a conventional wind turbine there could be economic reasons that may give some advantages over a normal turbine.
One advantage being that it could use a much smaller diameter (and thus cheaper) turbine than those currently in use.
The venturi would not be highly stressed and could be made of cheaper materials.

It would not have huge flailing blades that swat rare species of parrots for six.

#1015 Feliks

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 22:22

:)

I believe you have Solidworks.

Do you have simulation? I suggest that you test your venturi tube in simulation, and see how the flow works, and how the airflow inside the initial parallel part of the tube does not match the freestream air.


Unfortunately, I was no longer Solidworks for some time .. I Personal Edition 2004, but this version does not support more ... I tried to run a demo in 2012 but received three different serial numbers SW unfortunately no accepted ...
Even so, I'm thinking that the simulation nothing new has been brought to. There is one question that should be answered. Is there an amplifier, which amplifies, without any energy supply from the outside ...
Obviously it is.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Phonograph

Edison applied it to his phonograph. Without a large conical tubes, the phonograph mined only very difficult to hear the sound. after adding the tube pfonograf game quite loud. So there is an amplifier that amplifies, without any external energy supply. Exactly in the same way all the wind instruments amplify sound mouthpiece. Despite the mouthpiece is similar in all instruments, they are depending on the size of reinforcing a particular frequency, the bass tuba to the trumpet. So we have the next examples amplifiers without additional energy from the outside ....
We just reinforces the venturi nozzle, and is arguably, even though it may be one like it, while others are not ..
Also the plane, which is heavier than air can fly, when his wings around a laminar flow. When the parameters are come forth out of the possible formation of his lack causes that the plane drops like a stone to the ground .. Certainly anyone experienced this building a variety of model airplanes, some of which would not fly ... So you need some piety that everything went well.

Therefore, teeth sprite is activated, the air speed gain amplifier in the venturi, laminar flow to keep it. There should be understood that a laminar flow can not have a strong whirled air. An excellent example is a laminar flow in a plane that has the wings of the propeller engines. . Spite of strong turbulence behind the propeller, wing has a laminar flow conditions and wing create lift for the aircraft.

Also in the venturi nozzle, air turbulence on the turbine dynamo driven machine located in the throat nozzle will cause no disturbance of laminar flow resulting from Bernoulli's law

Anyway venturi nozzle is amplified wind speed, without any energy supply from outside.


Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1016 Wuzak

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 22:36

Even so, I'm thinking that the simulation nothing new has been brought to. There is one question that should be answered. Is there an amplifier, which amplifies, without any energy supply from the outside ...
Obviously it is.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Phonograph

Edison applied it to his phonograph. Without a large conical tubes, the phonograph mined only very difficult to hear the sound. after adding the tube pfonograf game quite loud. So there is an amplifier that amplifies, without any external energy supply. Exactly in the same way all the wind instruments amplify sound mouthpiece. Despite the mouthpiece is similar in all instruments, they are depending on the size of reinforcing a particular frequency, the bass tuba to the trumpet. So we have the next examples amplifiers without additional energy from the outside ....


But is the sound energy more than the energy used to power the device?



#1017 Wuzak

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 22:47

Or you could build a venturi system of the type you suggest and see how it performs - it shouldn't be too difficult to make one.

Even if it doesn't work as you claim (and I don't think it will) but has an efficiency about the same as a conventional wind turbine there could be economic reasons that may give some advantages over a normal turbine.
One advantage being that it could use a much smaller diameter (and thus cheaper) turbine than those currently in use.
The venturi would not be highly stressed and could be made of cheaper materials.

It would not have huge flailing blades that swat rare species of parrots for six.


We looked at this some time ago.

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4946127

I used Solidworks Simulation to visualise the flow around and through a venturi tube.

Though I didn't, apparently, use the correctly shaped venturi the result is clear. The throat causes a blockage that reduces teh inlet speed. In this example the free stream air velocity was 5m/s, yet the air speed inside the inlet of the venturi was under 2m/s. And a turbine into that and the situation becomes worse.

#1018 gruntguru

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 23:07

First units 10 and 15 miles is 16 km / h - 24 km / h or 4.5 m / s to 6.75 m / s


Posted Image

Why is it important to air bypassing the nozzle on the outside was the shortest path in a straight line? not because I'm imagining that the venturi nozzle is so very close to collapse like a normal airplane wing over and over. its aerodynamics will surely like this over and over again folded wings. wing and best for low speed is the lower edge of a straight line. here shown theoretically how to wrap the wing sites. Now Lifting force of this wing will also "wrapped" inside, creating a negative pressure in the whole nozzle .....

Total kinetic energy in the wind (passing through a ring the same size as your venturi inlet)
=1/2 mdot x V ^2
=1/2 x 4.8 x 5.2^2
=65 watts (0.086 hp)
This cannot be magically increased to 9 hp using a nozzle. The freestream air simply refuses to enter the venturi. Most of it bends around the inlet and bypasses it.

Why don't you re-do your calculation with the 1m inlet and a 100mm venturi? The power output is fantastic! (yes a fantasy).

#1019 Kelpiecross

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:14

I probably should have researched this on the internet earlier - there is much material along the lines of what Feliks is suggesting - below being just one example:

http://opensourceeco...ed_wind_turbine

Useful gains apparently can be made (and greater efficiencies than Betz Law would imply) but the overall cost of building a "shrouded wind turbine" means that they appear to be uneconomic compared to the "traditional" current type of wind turbine.

Nevertheless it would seem that our old mate Feliks was right to some extent.

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#1020 gruntguru

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:21

Useful gains apparently can be made (and greater efficiencies than Betz Law would imply) but the overall cost of building a "shrouded wind turbine" means that they appear to be uneconomic compared to the "traditional" current type of wind turbine.

The shrouded wind turbine increases the power available from a given turbine by collecting wind energy from a larger cross section of the wind than the turbine itself. It must still obey the Betz limit - based on the area of the collector not the turbine itself.

Edited by gruntguru, 11 June 2013 - 05:22.


#1021 Kelpiecross

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:08

The shrouded wind turbine increases the power available from a given turbine by collecting wind energy from a larger cross section of the wind than the turbine itself. It must still obey the Betz limit - based on the area of the collector not the turbine itself.


I did wonder if that would be the case. In the Wiki entry on Betz' Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

One of the opening statements says something like "more energy can be extracted ... if a diffuser is used to collect additional wind flow etc. etc. " - I find this slightly misleading - it could have just said "more energy can be extracted by a bigger diameter turbine" - which hardly needs to be stated.

How would Betz' Law be applied in the example where air is being sucked through the turbine via a side connection to the venturi throat region?

#1022 gruntguru

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:11

Betz' law should always be applied to the area of the cross section presented to the wind. The "frontal area" if you like.



#1023 Feliks

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:21

Betz' law should always be applied to the area of the cross section presented to the wind. The "frontal area" if you like.



How have any "physical law" may treat the amount of energy without taking into account the weight of passing? . Here the mass flowing through the venturi nozzle is as completely the entire length of the venturi. (Bernoulli's law does not let you come up this mass was divided into parts only must all take part in it. Bernoulli's Theorem It also makes airplane wings lifting capacity depends on its size, shape and speed. wing size, the mass of air taking in the part gives rise to the corresponding flow of lift and the plane can fly. angle at which the wing relative to the air flow is essential to the size of the possible amount of the flowing mass - where is laminar, the lift is no longer as a result of a laminar high angle, it does not exist., and aviation lame no right Betz which ignores mass there's no excuse. and that is lame, I explained it earlier ...


Total kinetic energy in the wind (passing through a ring the same size as your venturi inlet)
=1/2 mdot x V ^2
=1/2 x 4.8 x 5.2^2
=65 watts (0.086 hp)
This cannot be magically increased to 9 hp using a nozzle. The freestream air simply refuses to enter the venturi. Most of it bends around the inlet and bypasses it.

Why don't you re-do your calculation with the 1m inlet and a 100mm venturi? The power output is fantastic! (yes a fantasy).


No reason you can not do 1000mmm Venturi size of 100 mm because the flow through the present ceases to be laminar, preventing its full existence - is the same as at an angle of an aircraft wing nalready not produce lift and the plane drops like a stone. Critical condition for this flow must be his laminarność, in then do these additional forces, and they are satisfied only if the Reynolds number Re = 2340 below. Therefore geometry can not be any.
http://en.wikipedia....Reynolds_number

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1024 Wuzak

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:26

No reason you can not do 1000mmm Venturi size of 100 mm because the flow through the present ceases to be laminar, preventing its full existence - is the same as at an angle of an aircraft wing nalready not produce lift and the plane drops like a stone. Critical condition for this flow must be his laminarność, in then do these additional forces, and they are satisfied only if the Reynolds number Re = 2340 below. Therefore geometry can not be any.
http://en.wikipedia....Reynolds_number


Surely it is the length of the venturi and its angles which dictate whether the flow remains laminar or not?

Alo, what of boundary layers and surface friction?


#1025 Feliks

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:39

Surely it is the length of the venturi and its angles which dictate whether the flow remains laminar or not?

Alo, what of boundary layers and surface friction?


Definitely getting this whole theory possible to produce energy, requires the same approach as the Wright Brothers to fly. It should be properly taken into account all the necessary things to be successful flight ... and then further developed so as to aviation developed from those first moments

Andrew :wave:

#1026 Feliks

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:40

But is the sound energy more than the energy used to power the device?



No. make such experience, Invite someone to your house with insrumentemTuba Bass,. Then ask him to play a sound on the instrument, will find that all the windows in your house, they resonate strongly when the sound will be played .. Then he try to raise your loudest scream or force windows to resonate ... Surely you will not succeed, even though you will be very trying

:) :)

#1027 Feliks

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 13:28

Just now I got a nice picture of one of the English forums which publishes ... I guess I was promoted to senior lecturer ... But why is ores men clog ears ??


Posted Image


Andrew :kiss:

Edited by Feliks, 11 June 2013 - 13:29.


#1028 Wuzak

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 22:45

Not sure if you know The Muppets Feliks.

Beaker doesn't want to hear because he is the one that suffers when the experiment goes wrong....

Posted Image

#1029 Feliks

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 23:39

Not sure if you know The Muppets Feliks.

Beaker doesn't want to hear because he is the one that suffers when the experiment goes wrong....



Thanks not know that. These are the cultural differences that are more important than the knowledge of the language .. :wave:

But I think the experiment went a long time ago. Baker should again read the Bible's Old Testament ... The trumpets of Jericho. Surely demolished the walls .. :rolleyes:


http://en.wikipedia....ttle_of_Jericho

Posted Image

And today we show the strength of the trumpets at football matches ...

Posted Image


And a siren fog warships tact not to mention ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foghorn

Posted Image



Andrew :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Edited by Feliks, 11 June 2013 - 23:45.


#1030 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 00:31

These are all examples of transducers and resonances.

They still obey the fundamental law that you don't get more energy out than you put in.

#1031 Feliks

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:21

These are all examples of transducers and resonances.

They still obey the fundamental law that you don't get more energy out than you put in.


Best ask the professionals, rather than reading tea leaves coffee


http://www.croll.com...ors-theory.html



Besides, every plane that flies in the air is a clear denial of Archimedes, but somehow you do not mind ....

:smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 12 June 2013 - 01:36.


#1032 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:59

I'm not entirely sure why you are determined to shred whatever credibility, and access to good natured commentary, you have left. Even as an eight year old I knew the difference between a lighter than air balloon and an aeroplane.



#1033 gruntguru

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:21

How have any "physical law" may treat the amount of energy without taking into account the weight of passing? . . . . . . no right Betz which ignores mass there's no excuse.


The mass flow and energy in a wind stream are well known and form the basis for Betz' law which states that no more than 59.3% of the energy in the wind stream can be harnessed. So Betz' law most definitely does account for mass flow.

Mass flow (mdot) and power (KEdot) for wind velocity=v, air density=rho, cross section area=A

mdot = v x rho x A

KEdot = 1/2 x mdot x v^2 = 1/2 rho x A x v^3

The second formula states the total power available in the wind (a lot less than the amount you claim your venturi will make). Betz's law only limits you to 60% of that number.

#1034 Feliks

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:29

Well, this a lunatic continuing science, here's the project added to the venturi such an aircraft for flight litte 300 watts of power. Drew a venturi nozzle such as for example for driving a bicycle. I tried to accurately maintain scale drawings and nozzle. The nozzle has a dimension of 600 mm diameter and 2500 mm in length, and should be according to the calculations give the 300 watt ...

You will agree with me that it does not look unreal :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia...wered_transport

Posted Image

Maybe that so few students on this board bought the plane, which is just an old record and added the venturi nozzles, so to show that they can, .. and That Daedalus so he could follow the sun all the time to follow .. without excessive risk of his strength or the fuel runs out ...;)

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1035 Wuzak

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:34

I am glad you are confident in your theories Feliks.

But now, as a scientist, it is time to test your theory.

You could buy an anenometer such as this one:

Posted Image

And could build your venturi tube around that. They look to be less than $100 in Australia.

Better yet, get two anenometers - that way you can test the free air stream and the air flow in your venturi.



#1036 gruntguru

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:45

Well, this a lunatic continuing science, here's the project added to the venturi such an aircraft for flight litte 300 watts of power. Drew a venturi nozzle such as for example for driving a bicycle. I tried to accurately maintain scale drawings and nozzle. The nozzle has a dimension of 600 mm diameter and 2500 mm in length, and should be according to the calculations give the 300 watt ...

And once you have added a venturi capable of generating 300 watts you will find that the pedal power required has increased by 900 watts due to the added drag.

#1037 Feliks

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:45

I am glad you are confident in your theories Feliks.

But now, as a scientist, it is time to test your theory.

You could buy an anenometer such as this one:

And could build your venturi tube around that. They look to be less than $100 in Australia.

Better yet, get two anenometers - that way you can test the free air stream and the air flow in your venturi.



It is a pity that after my lectures any academic qualifications is not .. And I just checked lecture theories (such as pretending to be science, Betz, I reject)
These experiences and measurements already done 1937. Here you have a detailed description of the characteristics.

http://www.new4strok...ritubes1937.pdf

Tell me where do I put this wonderful instrument for chimney?

Posted Image

   It is a pity that it is calibrated in decibels ...

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1038 Feliks

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:02

And once you have added a venturi capable of generating 300 watts you will find that the pedal power required has increased by 900 watts due to the added drag.



Really? attach themselves to the handlebars, the wheel made ​​of metal with a diameter of 600 mm, and try to ride a bicycle. Of course, almost did not notice the increased air resistance at all ..
I wonder who, or what makes you such false information about 900 watts transmit???

Andrew :cry:

Edited by Feliks, 13 June 2013 - 11:02.


#1039 Kelpiecross

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:26

Well, this a lunatic continuing science, here's the project added to the venturi such an aircraft for flight litte 300 watts of power. Drew a venturi nozzle such as for example for driving a bicycle. I tried to accurately maintain scale drawings and nozzle. The nozzle has a dimension of 600 mm diameter and 2500 mm in length, and should be according to the calculations give the 300 watt ...

You will agree with me that it does not look unreal :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia...wered_transport

Posted Image

Maybe that so few students on this board bought the plane, which is just an old record and added the venturi nozzles, so to show that they can, .. and That Daedalus so he could follow the sun all the time to follow .. without excessive risk of his strength or the fuel runs out ...;)

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:


Feliks - maybe you should make a helicopter version - a venturi/RAT assembly on each rotor tip with the electricity generated driving the main rotor motor. The faster the rotor spins - the more power is generated by the venturi/RAT assemblies causing the main rotor to spin ever faster - and so on. You would have to be careful the rotor didn't overspeed - but it's a bloody good idea.

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#1040 Feliks

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:47

Feliks - maybe you should make a helicopter version - a venturi/RAT assembly on each rotor tip with the electricity generated driving the main rotor motor. The faster the rotor spins - the more power is generated by the venturi/RAT assemblies causing the main rotor to spin ever faster - and so on. You would have to be careful the rotor didn't overspeed - but it's a bloody good idea.


You know, I also like the idea .. But is the propeller helicopter vibrations will not fall as a result of the weights on the ends of the propeller? But the speed would be staggering ..

A few houses here do for a small power plant ..

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:wave: :wave:

Edited by Feliks, 13 June 2013 - 13:05.


#1041 Greg Locock

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 22:24

So if we assume the friction at the hub of the helicopter rotor is say 20 Nm, and the rotors are 5m long and weigh 40 kg each, what windspeed is necessary before they start to turn of their own accord?

Once the rotor has reached operating speed it will be easy to control its speed electrically, simply by dumping the excess power generated into resistors.

This is really bad for global warming, but I guess that is the downside of any of these systems that create enegry from nowhere.

#1042 Feliks

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 23:25

Here, the first success - Ideal working prototype Windmill Red Baron .. Because at the age of 14 years well done flying models, these skills are to this day. Despite the efforts of various forces that my budget was very limited, I made a perfectly working prototype of the "windmill" but it declared its materials $ 20, for up to a budget can now have the .. Balsa, Japanese paper, Cellon paint, some tape and heat shrink ...
But I built a perfectly working prototp, that shows that, however, so you can produce energy according to my idea .. ...

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Research carried out in a moving car mate, with bowed glass in the door .... excellent wind tunnel... :rolleyes:


Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

#1043 gruntguru

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 23:31

Really? attach themselves to the handlebars, the wheel made ​​of metal with a diameter of 600 mm, and try to ride a bicycle. Of course, almost did not notice the increased air resistance at all ..
I wonder who, or what makes you such false information about 900 watts transmit???

It is easy to calculate.

If the venturi machine was a perfect machine that did not even obey Betz' law it would require 300 Watts of extra pedal power to overcome the drag. Wind speed equal to 300W through a 600mm dia cross section (area approx 0.3 sq m) is 42 km/hr (Bike speed required to generate 300W)
(- remember
Power (KEdot) = 1/2 x rho x A x v^3
so v = (2 x KEdot)/(rho x A)^-3 = (2 x 300)/(1.2 x 0.3)^-3 = 11.9 m/s = 42 km/hr)

Unfortunately Betz' law is real and demonstrably valid so a PERFECT wind turbine/venturi machine would only recover about 60% of the wind energy. The increase in drag/required pedal power would be 300/0.6 = 500 W. Bike speed required = 50.6 km/hr

The best wind turbines available (huge and very expensive) have peak efficiencies around 50%. If your bike turbine was that good the increase in drag/required pedal power would be 300/0.5 = 600 W. Bike speed required = 53.8 km/hr

Small scale turbines cannot match this and at 600 mm diameter (if the design was VERY good) the efficiency might be 33%.
The increase in drag/required pedal power would be 300/0.33 = 900 W. Bike speed required = 61.6 km/hr

A 600mm turbine, built by a fairly clever amatuer might achieve an efficiency of 20%.
The increase in drag/required pedal power would be 300/0.2 = 1500 W. Bike speed required = 73 km/hr

Edited by gruntguru, 14 June 2013 - 03:08.


#1044 Feliks

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 00:38

And how is my built prototype of the "windmill" to the false Betz law?
Sure nohow .... :lol::lol:

Edited by Feliks, 14 June 2013 - 00:39.


#1045 Wuzak

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:40

And how is my built prototype of the "windmill" to the false Betz law?
Sure nohow .... :lol::lol:


Sure, you got the fan to turn.

But how much power was required to do that?

#1046 gruntguru

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:48

And how is my built prototype of the "windmill" to the false Betz law?
Sure nohow .... :lol: :lol:

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

Regardless, your prototype windmill tells me nothing about Betz law.

#1047 gruntguru

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:54

But I built a perfectly working prototp, that shows that, however, so you can produce energy according to my idea .. ...

Agreed, you can produce energy with that kind of device. I don't think anyone disputes that point.

#1048 Kelpiecross

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:01

I think this new spinning rotor style of power generation is the dawn of a new age for humanity - limitless free power - a spinning rotor to power everything from a wrist watch to a city. Cars, trucks, trains, planes, ships - no further need for the horrible, smelly, GW-producing burning of hydrocarbon fuels.

There is some evidence to suggest that Albert Betz was (or more correctly, is) a shape-shifting alien whose mission is to prepare the Earth for an alien takeover by first raising its average temperature by ten degrees by the means of GW.

Edit - I forgot the most important thing seeing that this is essentially a motorsport forum - F1 to be powered by spinning rotors.

Edited by Kelpiecross, 14 June 2013 - 04:05.


#1049 gruntguru

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:51

Attach a small venturi to an F1 car. Imagine the power generated at 200 mph! That would increase the top speed to at least 300mph - and then the power generated would be . . . . . .

Of course they will have to ban it.

#1050 Feliks

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 07:51

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

Regardless, your prototype windmill tells me nothing about Betz law.


Physical laws then you can call it the law, when all spaces on Earth. Here is a kind of "right" is already in my "Windmill" do not subject, so you can not call it a law.
Besides, it is not written in among the laws of science, or the rights named in the list of names ...
http://en.wikipedia....laws_in_science

http://en.wikipedia....ed_after_people

Have you got that??

Andrew :smoking: :smoking: