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#1051 Wuzak

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:33

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

It does state that Betz's law only applies for open actuators. So it doesn't apply to your ducted venturi generator.

However, there is only so much energy in a given mass flow of air.

So even though you accelerate the air flow speed through your venturi, it must still have the same mass flow - and energy.

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#1052 Feliks

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:54

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

It does state that Betz's law only applies for open actuators. So it doesn't apply to your ducted venturi generator.

However, there is only so much energy in a given mass flow of air.

So even though you accelerate the air flow speed through your venturi, it must still have the same mass flow - and energy.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

Posted Image

I'm sorry, but the theory is not based on scientific principles, I will not accept... :wave:

http://www.allpar.co...ar/turbine.html

Only 1 KG entrusts flow per second and 100 Hp on the shaft ...

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 15 June 2013 - 12:20.


#1053 Kelpiecross

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 13:24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

It does state that Betz's law only applies for open actuators. So it doesn't apply to your ducted venturi generator.

However, there is only so much energy in a given mass flow of air.

So even though you accelerate the air flow speed through your venturi, it must still have the same mass flow - and energy.


Woozy - I think Betz' Law actually applies more correctly to ducted or shrouded turbines (which is more-or-less what a venturi generator is) than to an "open" turbine. In an "open" turbine Betz' Law does not account for some of the approaching air being deflected away from the turbine blades - the Law assumes that all the air approaching the turbine area goes through it as the air would if ducted.

I would guess that the divergent part of the venturi after the turbine has no greater effect than if the venturi ended abruptly just past the turbine.

#1054 Kelpiecross

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 13:34

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

Posted Image

I'm sorry, but the theory is not based on scientific principles, I will not accept... :wave:

http://www.allpar.co...ar/turbine.html

Only 1 KG entrusts flow per second and 100 Hp on the shaft ...

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:


Feliks - the mathematics look OK to me - and I am mathematically challenged.

I think you would find inventing things easier if you accept the general laws that govern the universe. There are still plenty of things to invent even using the various laws correctly - in fact it is easier if you obey the laws. The chances of actually finding an exception to a basic law or a way around it is very unlikely - even I have finally learnt this.

As they say (sort of) in Star Wars -"Use the Force - don't fight it".

#1055 Feliks

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 14:16

Feliks - the mathematics look OK to me - and I am mathematically challenged.

I think you would find inventing things easier if you accept the general laws that govern the universe. There are still plenty of things to invent even using the various laws correctly - in fact it is easier if you obey the laws. The chances of actually finding an exception to a basic law or a way around it is very unlikely - even I have finally learnt this.

As they say (sort of) in Star Wars -"Use the Force - don't fight it".



From the point of view of math-multiplication so it's only 3 numbers .. But from the standpoint of physics can not. Because so p = KG / m ^ 3, S = m ^ 2, V = m / sec ...
So the reduced meters are left with KG / sec....
I do not know anyone in "such units"given mass .... :rotfl:

Yes you're right, I should use the Force... Only it causes such a reaction.: :rolleyes:

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Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 15 June 2013 - 14:18.


#1056 Wuzak

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:22

http://www.allpar.co...ar/turbine.html

Only 1 KG entrusts flow per second and 100 Hp on the shaft ...

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:


Since the Chrysler turbine engine is a gas turbine which burns fuel it has nothing to do with the power of the air.

#1057 Wuzak

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:27

From the point of view of math-multiplication so it's only 3 numbers .. But from the standpoint of physics can not. Because so p = KG / m ^ 3, S = m ^ 2, V = m / sec ...
So the reduced meters are left with KG / sec....
I do not know anyone in "such units"given mass .... :rotfl:


The term you believe incorrect is not mass, but mass flow rate. So units of kg/s are entirely correct.

Secondly, if you look at the units for the whole equation:

F = mA = kg * m/s²

(p * S * v) * (v1-v2) = (kg/m³ * m² * m/s) * m/s = kg/s * m/s = kg * m/s²

So the equation has correct units.

Edited by Wuzak, 16 June 2013 - 01:28.


#1058 Feliks

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 11:02

The term you believe incorrect is not mass, but mass flow rate. So units of kg/s are entirely correct.

Secondly, if you look at the units for the whole equation:

F = mA = kg * m/s²

(p * S * v) * (v1-v2) = (kg/m³ * m² * m/s) * m/s = kg/s * m/s = kg * m/s²

So the equation has correct units.



Support of first heard that mass can be administered in KG / S In Newton's formula F = m * a mass to be infused in KG, and the acceleration m / s ^ 2
Other units are not allowed. Why here Betz given such abusive? Well, because at the beginning founded this state of affairs:
"

It shows the maximum possible energy - known as the Betz limit - that small be derived by means of an infinitely thin rotor from a fluid flowing at a Certain speed

."

And the most important tenet is "infinitely thin", that is something that can have no mass ...
Well then you should find it ... just like how it theoretically does not exist.?? :lol:

some spells and find a mass .. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force

"Variable-mass systems" but it does not apply to this case http://en.wikipedia....on#Open_systems

Since the Chrysler turbine engine is a gas turbine which burns fuel it has nothing to do with the power of the air.

Of course it is .. Surely by the engine only flows air and fuel only changes in the temperature and volume and velocity (and thus pressure). When the air out of the engine, it's just a lot poorer in oxygen, and that's all. As we have from the combustion of various additives, called flue gases are air ... but his mass is virtually the same as the entrance to the engine, because the added mass of fuel is negligible ... So the quantity of a passing entrusts is able to give us so much energy....

Here provides Excell tables to calculate the curves of internal venturi nozzle. The internal venturi nozzle have the advantage that the turbine blades are placed at a maximum radius in the nozzle, which gives a lot more torque. Also the number of blades is much larger, although their height, in this example, 570 mm, not greater than 12 mm .. But it can be done with plywood modeling ..

http://www.new4strok.../Inner570mm.zip

Posted Image


Regards Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 16 June 2013 - 11:42.


#1059 Wuzak

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 12:04

Support of first heard that mass can be administered in KG / S In Newton's formula F = m * a mass to be infused in KG, and the acceleration m / s ^ 2
Other units are not allowed. Why here Betz given such abusive?


It's not abusive. It is basic substitution.


And the most important tenet is "infinitely thin", that is something that can have no mass ...


The "infinitely thin" part refers to the rotor/actuator/turbine. Not the air.

This is done to simplify the calculation.


Of course it is .. Surely by the engine only flows air and fuel only changes in the temperature and volume and velocity (and thus pressure). When the air out of the engine, it's just a lot poorer in oxygen, and that's all. As we have from the combustion of various additives, called flue gases are air ... but his mass is virtually the same as the entrance to the engine, because the added mass of fuel is negligible ... So the quantity of a passing entrusts is able to give us so much energy....


Negligible? 1 part in (around) 15 is not negligible.

The difference between a wind turbine and a gas turbine is that the wind turbine only extracts energy from the air. A gas turbine adds energy to the air, as well as extracting it. This is done by compressing the air, sometimes by transferring heat energy into the intake air (in the regenerators in the Chrysler turbine example) and adding fuel to the compressed air. Then the expanding air is used to extract energy in a turbine to drive the compressor, and then again in a power turbine to drive the vehicle.

Fuel has a much higher energy density than air - ~46MJ/kg for petrol.






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#1060 Feliks

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 14:08

Negligible? 1 part in (around) 15 is not negligible.


1kg / s entrusts the flow of air or 3600 KG per hour.
Of fuel per hour 10 KG ..
or fuel mass to the mass entrusts to 10: 3600 .. or 0.3%. I really negligibly small ..

Please give details checked ..

Andrew :smoking:

#1061 GSpeedR

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 15:21

F=m*a is a simplification of Newton's real 2nd Law for linear motion:

F = d(m*v)/dt

or force (f) is equal to the time derivative of linear momentum (m*v). If mass entering/exiting the system is changing in time then it can not be pulled out of the derivative, as it is usually done for rigid body dynamics, which is how we get F = m*d(v)/dt.

#1062 gruntguru

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:57

I am not sure why you are concerned with Betz, Feliks. His law only limits us to recovery of 60% of the wind energy. That's quite a lot - especially when you consider that man's best efforts (giant multi-million dollar wind turbines) only recover about 50%. What do you think the limit should be - do you think it might be possible to recover 100% of the energy in the wind? It only requires a basic understanding of aerodynamics to understand that this is impossible.

The problem with your machines and calculations is not that they exceed the Betz limit. It is that they violate the First Law of Thermodynamics (conservation of energy). The power you claim to be able to generate with your venturi turbine is greater than the power of the wind ie recovery greater than 100%.

#1063 gruntguru

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:00

1kg / s entrusts the flow of air or 3600 KG per hour.
Of fuel per hour 10 KG ..
or fuel mass to the mass entrusts to 10: 3600 .. or 0.3%. I really negligibly small ..

100 kW gas turbine with 10 kg of fuel per hour > Specific fuel consumption = 100 g/kW.hr. Too low!

#1064 Wuzak

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:47

100 kW gas turbine with 10 kg of fuel per hour > Specific fuel consumption = 100 g/kW.hr. Too low!


By my calculations that would be 75-80% efficiency!

#1065 Kelpiecross

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:05

I am not sure why you are concerned with Betz, Feliks. His law only limits us to recovery of 60% of the wind energy. That's quite a lot - especially when you consider that man's best efforts (giant multi-million dollar wind turbines) only recover about 50%. What do you think the limit should be - do you think it might be possible to recover 100% of the energy in the wind? It only requires a basic understanding of aerodynamics to understand that this is impossible.

The problem with your machines and calculations is not that they exceed the Betz limit. It is that they violate the First Law of Thermodynamics (conservation of energy). The power you claim to be able to generate with your venturi turbine is greater than the power of the wind ie recovery greater than 100%.


50% out of a possible 59.3% is actually pretty good when compared to the percentage of energy an internal combustion engine recovers from its theoretical maximum possible thermal efficiency.

#1066 gruntguru

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:50

50% out of a possible 59.3% is actually pretty good when compared to the percentage of energy an internal combustion engine recovers from its theoretical maximum possible thermal efficiency.

Even IC engines do pretty well with best thermal efficiencies of about 40% for Otto and 50+% for Diesel compared to the maximum possible (ideal cycle) at around 60%. Admittedly ideal Diesel cycle efficiency is potentially higher than 60% with turbocharging.

#1067 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:16

http://www.gizmag.co...7e6e92-89800598

#1068 Feliks

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:47

http://www.gizmag.co...7e6e92-89800598



You know what Tony, the all "innovations" are so unsuccessful and, many of them with no rules, I do not know if this one does not stand still and disseminate the failed "innovation" ..

This is "successful" Innovations
Red Baron windmill ...
Here's a side profile of my prototype. Has a one advantage, it is super durable, like a pyramid, and you can not see that something was moving in

Posted Image

Oh, and as well think of it and human powered aircraft, even without the additional jet can fly alone is enough that he will be the lifting wing basically like my profile ...

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 17 June 2013 - 11:13.


#1069 Kelpiecross

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:26

I think there may be a way of getting around Betz' Law - as least to some extent. I should point out that what I am suggesting is not a plan to build a practical wind turbine - just a theoretical idea for capturing a greater percentage of the energy of a fixed cross-sectional area of wind than that allowed by Betz.
The idea simply is that (as I interpret the Law) Betz' Law applies only to a single stage turbine. If a series of turbines were placed in a duct similar to that shown in the first drawing of the Wiki article on Betz' Law - the duct expanding in area after each turbine to allow for the reduced velocity of the wind. The 40% of energy that gets past the first turbine has 60% captured, the 24% that gets past the second turbine has 60% captured by the third turbine and so on. Each turbine obeys Betz but overall the energy gathered is greater than that allowed by Betz and his bloody Law.

There often seems to be a way to get around the various basic laws of the universe (at least to some extent) without actually contradicting the laws. The point I am trying to make that it is not always a totally hopeless case to attempt something like Feliks is trying to do (but his idea won't work).

Did somebody else on this forum suggest this basic idea - or did I hallucinate it?

Edited by Kelpiecross, 18 June 2013 - 04:32.


#1070 Feliks

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:46

I think there may be a way of getting around Betz' Law - as least to some extent. I should point out that what I am suggesting is not a plan to build a practical wind turbine - just a theoretical idea for capturing a greater percentage of the energy of a fixed cross-sectional area of wind than that allowed by Betz.
The idea simply is that (as I interpret the Law) Betz' Law applies only to a single stage turbine. If a series of turbines were placed in a duct similar to that shown in the first drawing of the Wiki article on Betz' Law - the duct expanding in area after each turbine to allow for the reduced velocity of the wind. The 40% of energy that gets past the first turbine has 60% captured, the 24% that gets past the second turbine has 60% captured by the third turbine and so on. Each turbine obeys Betz but overall the energy gathered is greater than that allowed by Betz and his bloody Law.

There often seems to be a way to get around the various basic laws of the universe (at least to some extent) without actually contradicting the laws. The point I am trying to make that it is not always a totally hopeless case to attempt something like Feliks is trying to do (but his idea won't work).

Did somebody else on this forum suggest this basic idea - or did I hallucinate it?



I think that you gave a very good another example, the Betz "law "should be related but very skeptical. And it's a practice that we may work better for our imagination ... I can not but agree with the fact that my idea does not work. The images shown by me wings with a small fan, is the prototype shown in the "straight" Venturi nozzle. I assure you that with the right wind speed is very small fan rotates very quickly. Had he been exposed to the same wind without the help of the "straight" venturi nozzle, would not even be able to slowly rotate, because the relatively low wind, so little fan is not able to produce enough energy to overcome their resistance to motion. I have given, on which the profile is built, this "venturi nozzle straightened" so anyone can repeat the experience and see for yourself if it works. I was convinced and that is why I shared this information. Windmill used in the prototype rotor has a diameter of just 35 mm, the hub of which is as much as 19 mm in diameter. Even though it is "crippled" by a shoulder, shook actually fast. And he was inside the car, where the wind was not blowing at all ... Blowing in the wind wings creates a high vacuum. precisely because of this vacuum planes are flying, though is heavier than air a I are exactly the same negative pressure arising wing uses negative pressure not to fly, but to produce energy. And everyone knows that the negative pressure is created on the wing as it blows in the wind, so that so far only been used for flying plane, and will now also for the production of energy from wind. And there is no argument that it is "not working" because everyone can see that the plane is flying and a windmill, affixing to it as a vacuum cleaner, also rotates .. So a combination of both of these facts is possible, and certainly works. And there are no hallucinations. A "right" Betz who wants to talk about energy bypassing the mass, one has to such a process of its formation nohow ...
I greet those who are not afraid to have an open mind. :wave:

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 18 June 2013 - 09:48.


#1071 Wuzak

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 22:55

I was wondering, could you put one of these

Posted Image


inside one of these

Posted Image

Mount Wellington, Tasmania, 1,271m. Temperature difference between top an bottom should be at least 5C all year around, day and night.

#1072 gruntguru

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 00:06

I assume you are suggesting a solar tower (inside the mountain) without the solar collector. Unfortunately the solar tower updraft is driven by the temperature difference between the air inside the tower and outside - not the temperature difference top to bottom.

#1073 gruntguru

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 00:21

The idea simply is that (as I interpret the Law) Betz' Law applies only to a single stage turbine. If a series of turbines were placed in a duct similar to that shown in the first drawing of the Wiki article on Betz' Law - the duct expanding in area after each turbine to allow for the reduced velocity of the wind. The 40% of energy that gets past the first turbine has 60% captured, the 24% that gets past the second turbine has 60% captured by the third turbine and so on. Each turbine obeys Betz but overall the energy gathered is greater than that allowed by Betz and his bloody Law.

Sorry but no. Betz law applies to the structure that interrupts the wind and the cross section of the wind that is affected by the structure. What you put inside the structure is irrelevent - the energy available is only 60% of the energy in that cross section of the wind.

The reason for the Betz limit is simple. To extract 100% of the wind kinetic energy, the air velocity after extraction must be zero. If the air vbelocity is zero, it will be unable to exit the machine unless the machine outlet has infinite cross sectional area. If the cross sectional area is infinite we now have an infinte cross section of the wind being interrupted. The Betz limit simply defines the limiting compromise between cross sectional area and discharge velocity.

#1074 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:17

I assume you are suggesting a solar tower (inside the mountain) without the solar collector. Unfortunately the solar tower updraft is driven by the temperature difference between the air inside the tower and outside - not the temperature difference top to bottom.


Yes, I was.

Since the air intake is at the lower level, the temperature inside that point should be the same as the outside. Which is higher than the temperature at the top.

Plus, the temperature inside the mountain should be warmer than outside at the top, at least half of the year.

#1075 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:17

Can't let Feliks have all the crackpot ideas!

#1076 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:19

I think that you gave a very good another example, the Betz "law "should be related but very skeptical. And it's a practice that we may work better for our imagination ... I can not but agree with the fact that my idea does not work. The images shown by me wings with a small fan, is the prototype shown in the "straight" Venturi nozzle. I assure you that with the right wind speed is very small fan rotates very quickly. Had he been exposed to the same wind without the help of the "straight" venturi nozzle, would not even be able to slowly rotate, because the relatively low wind, so little fan is not able to produce enough energy to overcome their resistance to motion. I have given, on which the profile is built, this "venturi nozzle straightened" so anyone can repeat the experience and see for yourself if it works. I was convinced and that is why I shared this information. Windmill used in the prototype rotor has a diameter of just 35 mm, the hub of which is as much as 19 mm in diameter. Even though it is "crippled" by a shoulder, shook actually fast. And he was inside the car, where the wind was not blowing at all ... Blowing in the wind wings creates a high vacuum. precisely because of this vacuum planes are flying, though is heavier than air a I are exactly the same negative pressure arising wing uses negative pressure not to fly, but to produce energy. And everyone knows that the negative pressure is created on the wing as it blows in the wind, so that so far only been used for flying plane, and will now also for the production of energy from wind. And there is no argument that it is "not working" because everyone can see that the plane is flying and a windmill, affixing to it as a vacuum cleaner, also rotates .. So a combination of both of these facts is possible, and certainly works. And there are no hallucinations. A "right" Betz who wants to talk about energy bypassing the mass, one has to such a process of its formation nohow ...
I greet those who are not afraid to have an open mind. :wave:

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:



I have no doubt that the fan spun very fast. But what resistance did it have? I would think no more than bearing friction, whihc is not a lot. You could, probably, blow such a fan quite quickly with your own breath.

#1077 gruntguru

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:57

Since the air intake is at the lower level, the temperature inside that point should be the same as the outside. Which is higher than the temperature at the top.

Plus, the temperature inside the mountain should be warmer than outside at the top, at least half of the year.

Strip away the mountain leaving just the chimney and compare the inside temp with outside temp at each altitude. If there is no difference there will be no updraft.

If the mountain is warmer than the nearby air at the same altitude, that may drive it, but you would be cooling the mountain - using its internal energy to drive the system. You are then limited by how much heat energy the mountain contains, how quickly that heat can be conducted towards the chimney from the rest of the strata etc.

#1078 desmo

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 03:50

OK "prime" the chimney with warm low altitude air until that air is exhausting out the top. it should run on its own from that point on if it is insulated along its length and the temperature delta is sufficient, no?

#1079 gruntguru

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:50

Unfortunately the rising, warm air will cool as it is expanded to the lower pressures at higher altitudes. For example, halving the pressure will reduce the temperature by about 54*C, so it will depend on whether the local temperature gradient WRT altitude follows the gradient in the chimney (which will cool more or less isentropically).

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#1080 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:08

For Tassie it's kinda moot whether it works or not, since no development seems to be allowed for the mountain! Not even a cable car for tourism.

Don't tall buildings have strong updrafts near their walls from the same effect?

Also, it is quite windy up there, so we could add a venturi to the top of the outlet to help draw the air through.

I did some calcs at home earlier, and if we assume 3 x 40m diameter turbines, 5°C temperature difference top to bottom, and 10°C outside air temp at the bottom (similar to yesterday) you would get approximately 12m/s wind flow tthough the turbines and about 400MW generation capacity.

Might be a bit too good to be true.

For comparison, Tassie's installed generating capacity is ~2500MW.

#1081 gruntguru

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:22

Feliks?

#1082 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:36

Feliks?


:p

The difference is taht I have no confidence whatsoever in my calculations!

#1083 Wuzak

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:44

Discovered my error - I had, in error, used the km/h value for windspeed rather than m/s.

That brings the value down to 9.5MW at the Betz limit.

If I assume a 45% conversion efficiency, that goes down to 7.2MW.

Still seems high for 40m diameter turbines?

#1084 Feliks

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:45

Feliks?


Ok, Ok I am! I have yet to sleep and eat and earn money for the food :wave:




Here I present my video for "" erected "venturi nozzle. Clipping wings on the wind blows made ​​by an electric fan. Organic glass tube is placed in the side and has a length of about 70 cm. Inserting ball has a diameter of about 60 mm.
Clearly quite briskly that "climbing" up the hill .... For someone standing next to, who does not understand the processes involved, it looks like work "antigravity".
I can see that once we get quite a lot of Newton's potential energy, which can then be easily converted into electrical energy.
Really to receive this energy works only with 10 cm lengths of the wing, near the tube .... I swapped in this prototype is a pipe along the side of the slot, and uses its entire length to obtain energy.

I think that the grained of efficiency you need to develop a new airplane wing profiles.
The name of the families of these new profiles may sound NACA FELIX :rolleyes:

Andrew :smoking:

#1085 gruntguru

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:58

Discovered my error - I had, in error, used the km/h value for windspeed rather than m/s.

That brings the value down to 9.5MW at the Betz limit.

If I assume a 45% conversion efficiency, that goes down to 7.2MW.

Still seems high for 40m diameter turbines?

And betz limit doesn't apply for ducted turbines. You could probably expect 80%+ efficiency. I think there might be a problem with your wind speed.

#1086 Kelpiecross

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:20

And betz limit doesn't apply for ducted turbines. You could probably expect 80%+ efficiency. I think there might be a problem with your wind speed.


"Betz limit doesn't apply for ducted turbines"? - you're the one who convinced me that Betz Law almost certainly does apply to any form of turbine that extracts energy from a stream of wind. Maybe Betz doesn't apply to a turbine that extracts energy from a stream of hot expanding gas (as in a steam or gas turbine) but surely it applies to any form of wind turbine?

#1087 gruntguru

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 23:30

A 40m dia turbine in a chimney or duct is a ducted turbine.

#1088 Kelpiecross

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:04

A 40m dia turbine in a chimney or duct is a ducted turbine.


And why wouldn't Betz' Law apply to that?

#1089 Feliks

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:04

Here a few different examples of where and Betz law does not apply, and even the general principle of conservation of energy or not too much wind ... These advantages are known and used for years. Now how to explain the energy that moves the vehicle record two times faster than the wind? .. So in the wind properly deployed, but you can find as many as two times more energy - because the vehicle moving at a speed of somewhere it must take...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenbird

http://yachtpals.com...ing-record-4121

http://www.ivorbittl.....20the web.htm

http://suite101.com/...ils-work-a30436

http://www.northsail...US/Default.aspx



http://www.dailymail...ecord-time.html

Andrew :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 22 June 2013 - 10:40.


#1090 GSpeedR

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 20:06

Here a few different examples of where and Betz law does not apply, and even the general principle of conservation of energy or not too much wind ... These advantages are known and used for years. Now how to explain the energy that moves the vehicle record two times faster than the wind? .. So in the wind properly deployed, but you can find as many as two times more energy - because the vehicle moving at a speed of somewhere it must take...


I may be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are claiming that these sailing machines are somehow breaking conservation of energy laws. They are not. Velocity is not energy.
With a clever mechanism you can transmit a larger fraction of the supplied energy into desired work, but you cannot create more energy than what was supplied.


#1091 Fondles

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 20:21

Hi Feliks, this should interest you.
A machine that uses wind power, and is able to use that wind power to drive itself downwind faster than the wind.



#1092 Feliks

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 21:50

Hi Feliks, this should interest you.
A machine that uses wind power, and is able to use that wind power to drive itself downwind faster than the wind.



think that was an interesting discussion teeth miożna not repeat itself .. You have to carefully read this thread to get something new to bring to it. I already have published three years ago, just post # 488.
A "perpetual motion" for the venturi car. He has no such resistance as that of the propeller ...

Posted Image

Andrew :wave:

#1093 gruntguru

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 23:11

Wrong. The power you get from that turbine will be less than the resistance times apparent wind speed.



#1094 gruntguru

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 23:13

And why wouldn't Betz' Law apply to that?

In the example we are discussing (chimney in a mountain), the airspeed in the duct is known. Betz applies to free wind speed.

#1095 Feliks

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 00:41

And when have Betz to these "bikes" ???

How to know that you can not fuel ... just do not need to bend the pipe .. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Andrew :smoking:

#1096 Catalina Park

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:17

I think this video will help any discussion.


#1097 Feliks

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:50

I think this video will help any discussion.


However, I think that will help...
In the video you can see the pulse motor. Among other things, the principle of its operation is the. exhaust gas flowing out of a certain mass and velocity, creates a negative pressure in the pipe, so large that it can open the valve to the pipe and suck the new batches of fresh air,,
Vehicle able to work even when they do not move...

But now, just put the question .. the engine to operate at quite short tube without points, despite the fact that we have given fuel? certainly not. therefore suitable dimensions and shape of the tube, is required for proper operation. you can even say that this tube is an amplifier of energy that gives us fuel. But it must be well protected in accordance with the requirements of the shape, which helps in the proper exchange of cargo.

Contrary to appearances, these dimensions are quite critical.

The next example of the amplifier to the motor without OF ANY energy from the outside is the sports exhaust, added to the four stroke engine. Also needs to have critical dimensions of length, and the capacity of the pipes. What he strengthens. - So as a result the exhaust gas flow (entrusted with less oxygen and impurities) the exact mass calculated with respect to the rotational speed results in resonance, while its movement in the direction of exhaust This movement of the mass of exhaust gas results in a relatively high vacuum in the cylinder and sucked the additional amount is entrusted. So we can say that the exhaust system is also amplified without additional energy from the outside into this four stroke engine. The same engine without exhaust system has a few tens of percent more negative power. So adding the amplifier, improves the efficiency of the engine, because with the same mass inertia, to achieve a greater power.
And we see here in these examples, the mass of air are essential for proper impact assessments of these engines. Likewise, the venturi nozzle air mass contained in a given moment in volume to the nozzle, it can theoretically be converted into energy, taking into account its speed even in the middle of the nozzle.
The film shows that even a bicycle can install various "freaks" ..

Posted Image

Andrew :smoking:



#1098 Kelpiecross

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 13:59

think that was an interesting discussion teeth miożna not repeat itself .. You have to carefully read this thread to get something new to bring to it. I already have published three years ago, just post # 488.
A "perpetual motion" for the venturi car. He has no such resistance as that of the propeller ...

Posted Image

Andrew :wave:


What is a "miozna"?

#1099 Feliks

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 22:33

What is a "miozna"?



Sorry, this sentence should read as "I think it was an interesting discussion teeth can not be repeated"

Red Baron Windmill working prototype :

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 23 June 2013 - 22:45.


Advertisement

#1100 Wuzak

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 00:41

Red Baron Windmill working prototype :

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Andrew :smoking: :smoking:


What does that prove?

That you can suck air through an unloaded fan and make it spin?

You need to put that in a wind tunnel (to control teh air speed accurately) and measure the output power of the fan.