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Senna throttle technique


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#1 Caterhamnut

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 19:54

Hi all - hope you may be able to help us out here.
A few days ago, someone posted a clip of Senna driving an NSX at Suzuka (on-board) on our Blatchat forum (Lotus 7 Club) This clip has small boxes within, showing his feet at work, and the cars intruments. The poster asked what his rapid movements on the accelerator was for.
The thread is:
http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?Id=70094
The original film is 20mb - if that is too large, I posted 2 links to some reduced sized clips, where I took out the intro etc (2mb or 5mb) a few pages into the thread - I post as Angus&Tessa on Blatchat! I had not seen this clip before.
So can anyone shed any light onto our theories?
Cheers
angus

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#2 ViMaMo

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 22:16

He brakes for the corner, turns. Then goes on and off the throttle entering through mid way. Then he just plants it. He is balancing the car through the corner on the throttle.

Can someone explain why Senna goes on and off the throttle, than just keep a constant percentage?

#3 b195

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 22:46

I seem to remember he developed that technique when driving turbo cars in the mid 80s, as a form of 'human' traction control (or possibly to reduce the impact of turbo lag).

#4 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 01:36

I'm gonna put on some asbestos underwear and have a shot at this one.

He could have been faster if he wouldn't have driven like that. It's just not right. I think that in the turbo era, he may of had to use that technique to get the turbo to spool, and if the car was carb'd it *might* have been a way to keep the carb working. If the car is N/A and injected, though, that is just going to cause problems with chassis tuning.

If I had a driver that was doing that...and I have...I'd tell them that until they get their footwork figured out I can't make the car better. Possibly since it was a street car, he was really horsing it around the track like a kid in a drifting contest. It didn't really look like that, though. It looked like that was just what he did. Some drivers are like that, they feel like they constantly have to be doing something. The truth is, they don't.

I bet Prost or Stewart wouldn't have had the same footwork. I'd be high suprized if Schumacher does either.

#5 wawawa

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 01:55

I remember an interview with Herbert where they asked him if there was anything special about Schumacher's technique:

It's nothing extra-special. Its just the way he controls the car with the throttle. Instead of where I think the majority of drivers that I've known (Damon, DC, Gerhard, Hakkinen) when they brake, change down the gears, and then go on-and-off the throttle (Ayrton was the biggest example of that - when he used to be in the middle of a corner, his throttle movement used to be so quick), whereas Michael has this braking, changing down, and then he's constantly on the throttle straight away.

I think Schumacher once said that these days there is virtually nothing a driver can do mid-corner - the effort and skill is needed mainly at corner-entry and corner-exit - so perhaps this repeated on-and-off technique fell out of use (in F1) in the mid to late 90's.

#6 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 02:33

Does this not unsettle the car? (Getting ready for a projectile aimed at me) . It seems rather a tad brutal, stomping the feet like that.

#7 SeanValen

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 04:07

Originally posted by wawawa
I remember an interview with Herbert where they asked him if there was anything special about Schumacher's technique:
I think Schumacher once said that these days there is virtually nothing a driver can do mid-corner - the effort and skill is needed mainly at corner-entry and corner-exit - so perhaps this repeated on-and-off technique fell out of use (in F1) in the mid to late 90's.



There are times when Schumacher M has taken downforce off to live with a lively back end, and then he has more work to do, remember France 2003, the michelin weekend where williams, mclaren and renault were competitive above ferrari, especially williams, he got to the podium, by making his car fast in sector one, less downforce, then living with the lively back end in the other sectors, this is no easy thing, Barichello was nowhere to be seen that weekend.
There are times when a driver takes wings off, and comprimises some sectors and lives it because he knows how to control it, other then that, yeah when MS doesn't have a bad tyre weekend, he doesn't need to comprimise the car and drive it differently.

The Benetton of 1995 was also said to be very lively, that telemetry of Schumi and Herbert at Silverstone of the same year showed the input MS was doing, more mid corner input.

And in wet races like Spain 96, MS is making alot of corrections, 3-4 or more in just one corner, I remember Brawn talking about that.

Wet races bring up that throttle to break technigue, Senna and Schumacher have been the best wet drivers over the last decades, so it all fits together.

#8 SV8

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 07:47

I remeber an interview with Ron Dennis in the late 80's. In it he said that Senna was always a worry with Fuel Consumption where as Prost with smooth throttle technique used less fuel. I suppose that was the trade off for the speed

#9 Racer Joe

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 08:14

Originally posted by SV8
I remeber an interview with Ron Dennis in the late 80's. In it he said that Senna was always a worry with Fuel Consumption where as Prost with smooth throttle technique used less fuel. I suppose that was the trade off for the speed


Yeah but because of Prost's more economical style he was able to use more boost for longer when he wants to.

#10 lawsy

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 08:39

Originally posted by vivian
Does this not unsettle the car? (Getting ready for a projectile aimed at me) . It seems rather a tad brutal, stomping the feet like that.


I think that is the point. A quick stab at th throttle in say the rain in a road car can be a good way to reduce understeer. Just because the tacho isn't rising with the sound also doesn't mean that th response is not useful. Put your road car in a high gear at low revs, stomp the throttle and it will change note under load but not rev.

I believe the technique would be to keep the balance of the car in slight oversteer. If the rear was in a proper drift, then smooth throttle application can be used, but as it is around neutral, quick stabs balance the car well.

#11 mrman_3k

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 10:04

Ironically I downloaded the video about Schumi's driving style and then my friend sent me this Ayrton video the other day. Ever since I saw Herbert talk about the on and off throttle movements it sparked my interest so this was excellent to watch.

From a purely scientific standpoint, smoother is better. Everything in nature operates best when operated in a smooth manner. I can only guess that like left foot braking, these things are learned.

Now here's the run going back to the video comparing Schumi with Herbert at Silverstone - Schumi had a smooth throttle input, but jerky steering. Herbert had jerky throttle but smooth steering. Overall Schumi had a smoother and faster speed trace. Could someone shed some light on this?

#12 lawsy

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 10:07

Are you able to post a link to the Schumi/Herbert video? If so thanks very much...

#13 michaelab

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 10:44

I read somewhere once that Senna's on/off throttle technique was done partly to increase rear downforce by reducing the pressure under the rear diffuser as a result of the exhaust gases rushing out through the diffuser at large throttle openings.

TBH the turbo explanation sounds more plausible but either way, it wouldn't make a difference in an NSX or a modern F1 car.

Michael.

#14 Chickenman

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 11:29

Originally posted by michaelab
I read somewhere once that Senna's on/off throttle technique was done partly to increase rear downforce by reducing the pressure under the rear diffuser as a result of the exhaust gases rushing out through the diffuser at large throttle openings.

TBH the turbo explanation sounds more plausible but either way, it wouldn't make a difference in an NSX or a modern F1 car.

Michael.


Yes...I've heard and read that as well. Towards the late 1980's and early 90's, the exhausts played a huge part in the diffuser efficiency. Martin Brundle once remarked that, by simply revving his Turbo Benetton in the pits, the back end would be sucked down.I've also seen videos clips of this. Astounding!!

I've watched Senna back in the late 80's and early 90's and I remember a race at Monaco, where Senna annihilated every one during qualifying and the race. The staccato sound of the engine as he rapidly blipped the throttle was unique. This was before the use of Traction Control BTW.

#15 Spunout

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 11:53

Based on my own experiences (excuse my non-scientific terminology)...

From the clip you can see he uses quite a lot of steering input in corner entry and then balances the car (cures understeer by creating soem oversteer) by "blipping" the throttle. Please don´t forget grip tradeoff - in midcorner where the tyres are already battling against lateral movement, you don´t have to create that much longitunal movement to alter the balance of the car. The another problem is how to get to the point where you can start accelerating without worries of gathering too much speed and going wide? Let´s start from corner entry: you brake, downshift, start turning - understeer, understeer, understeer. Smooth and progressive throttle technique may sound fine in theory, but in real life starting to apply the throttle progressively at this point would be way too early. You are already on the limit of the grip front tyres can offer, you defitenitely don´t want more speed! So, you stay far from throttle at this point, try to find the optimal steering angle, and finally reach mid-corner. Then you accelerate, create some oversteer to balance the car (or to look cool heh), and head to the straigth. Your result? Nice corner exit, half-decent mid-corner but dead slow entry. However, by using the technique Senna ably demonstrated, you can use the throttle to create oversteer WITHOUT increasing the speed at the point where it is too early to do so.

Of course, I have to note in general smooth = fast.

#16 lawsy

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 12:06

^^^ A much more deatiled explanation of what I was trying to say. :)

Notice he turns in a bit earlier than you would expect, and then towards the apex is understeering, so trips the car into slight oversteer to keep the nose tucked in, ready for the progressive throttle to exit under acceleration.

This way he can enter the corner too fast (if he was not to induce oversteer), have a fast middle section with the slide, and have the nose facing the correct way for a quick exit.

#17 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 16:31

Originally posted by mrman_3k
Now here's the run going back to the video comparing Schumi with Herbert at Silverstone - Schumi had a smooth throttle input, but jerky steering. Herbert had jerky throttle but smooth steering. Overall Schumi had a smoother and faster speed trace. Could someone shed some light on this?


This is what i heard in the same video:

Schumacher is carrying more speed through the corner, much more on the limit. So he makes these tiny corrections in steering. While Herbert has already lost speed and is not on the limit, and hence not making that many corrections.

#18 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 17:10

re: diffuser exhaust; blipping the throttle is just going to give you off-on rear end grip. better to keep the throttle on as much as you can, smoothly; to maximise rear grip.

#19 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 18:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
re: diffuser exhaust; blipping the throttle is just going to give you off-on rear end grip. better to keep the throttle on as much as you can, smoothly; to maximise rear grip.


There is risk of losing traction due to wheelspin
Doesn't the car's rear suspension rise when throttle is applied? So wouldn't it null the effect of diffuser?

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 18:14

If you dont want wheelspin, dont use full throttle. But I dony buy the logic in this pogo'ing of the throttle. Why would you want to give such aerodynamically sensitive cars abrupt and turbulent air flow?

#21 BorderReiver

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 18:27

Originally posted by Spunout
Based on my own experiences (excuse my non-scientific terminology)...

From the clip you can see he uses quite a lot of steering input in corner entry and then balances the car (cures understeer by creating soem oversteer) by "blipping" the throttle. Please don´t forget grip tradeoff - in midcorner where the tyres are already battling against lateral movement, you don´t have to create that much longitunal movement to alter the balance of the car. The another problem is how to get to the point where you can start accelerating without worries of gathering too much speed and going wide? Let´s start from corner entry: you brake, downshift, start turning - understeer, understeer, understeer. Smooth and progressive throttle technique may sound fine in theory, but in real life starting to apply the throttle progressively at this point would be way too early. You are already on the limit of the grip front tyres can offer, you defitenitely don´t want more speed! So, you stay far from throttle at this point, try to find the optimal steering angle, and finally reach mid-corner. Then you accelerate, create some oversteer to balance the car (or to look cool heh), and head to the straigth. Your result? Nice corner exit, half-decent mid-corner but dead slow entry. However, by using the technique Senna ably demonstrated, you can use the throttle to create oversteer WITHOUT increasing the speed at the point where it is too early to do so.

Of course, I have to note in general smooth = fast.


Or you could trail brake and keep the nose in.

#22 Spunout

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 19:17

Yeah. That depends on a car though. Road cars tend to have lots of front brake bias and at least I have found it difficult to employ trail braking effectively. I do recognize the possibility that it´s my lack of skill causing this, of course :D

#23 Chickenman

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 19:32

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
If you dont want wheelspin, dont use full throttle. But I dony buy the logic in this pogo'ing of the throttle. Why would you want to give such aerodynamically sensitive cars abrupt and turbulent air flow?


Do you also deny that Senna was one of the fastest drivers ever in his Era? Obviously he knew what he was doing and it worked for him and the setup he used.

I don't buy your arguement that the exhaust created " Turbulance" in the diffuser airflow. Back in the days of full diffusers, a huge amount of R&D was spent on maximising the exhaust enhancement of diffuser airflow. I highly doubt that it would create " Turbulance" as you state.

Aiflow has inertia...and there is a large amount of air flowing through those diffusers. It just doesn't rapidly accelerate and decelerate whn you blip the throttle. I believe that Senna's technique was to keep the velocity up in the diffuser by " blipping" the throttle. Thus he could keep the diffuser velocity up without exceeding the lateral grip of the tires.

The other factor was Turbo boost. Senna drove a lot of cars in the Turbo era, one way of keeping the Turbo spooled for maximum boost on corner exit is to rapidly blip the throttle.

As for upsetting the balance of the car in a corner...I believe that few really are aware of just how " insensitive " modern High Downforce F1 ( and Prototype ) are to rapid throttle changes. Downforce is GOD...it is all that matters. Throw out all of your conventional thinking when dealing with extreme high downforce cars. Corner lines, throttle technique, steering input.....it all gets blurred by the incredible crip created with downforce. If you find a way to increase "downforce" on the car in a corner ...by any means possible....then that will likely result in a superior cornering speed. BTW, this is not just some Techno-Babble that I made up out of thin air. Fully documented theory in Alan Henry's " Grand Prix Car Design and Technology in the 1980's " and in Simon McBeath's " Competition Car Downforce". In fact on page 105 of McBeath's book he describes how some drivers were able to better exploit the use of "exhaust driven diffusers" by the combination of left foot braking and applications of throttle.

In the end, unless we have someone like Alain Prost or Michael Schumacher posting back to this, I feel that VERY few uf us really understand the intricacies in driving a 80's, 90's or current era F1 car ( my self included of course ). Therfore I doubt that any of us are really qualified to judge Senna's technique as " Right" or " Wrong". The man's accomplishments obviously speak for themselves. Just my worthless .02c.








#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 19:34

One of the fastest, yes. And whos to say he couldnt have gone faster if he mixed a bit of technique into it?

#25 SeanValen

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 20:00

Originally posted by mrman_3k
Ironically I downloaded the video about Schumi's driving style and then my friend sent me this Ayrton video the other day. Ever since I saw Herbert talk about the on and off throttle movements it sparked my interest so this was excellent to watch.

From a purely scientific standpoint, smoother is better. Everything in nature operates best when operated in a smooth manner. I can only guess that like left foot braking, these things are learned.

Now here's the run going back to the video comparing Schumi with Herbert at Silverstone - Schumi had a smooth throttle input, but jerky steering. Herbert had jerky throttle but smooth steering. Overall Schumi had a smoother and faster speed trace. Could someone shed some light on this?


My understanding is:
To simply put it, Schumi is carrying more speed into the corner, Herbert is not, so he's not going to be correcting a slightly slower Benetton into a corner, so no jerky steering. The jerky steering you refering to, is the corrections mid corner and stuff Michael is making, notice this doesn't apply to everything Schumi has done, that car was very nervous in corners, so Michael would be doing a little more to it with corrections etc, when you got a more better handeling car, Brazil 2002 for example-f-2002, Michael at Brazil, one of the few onboard shots of Michael in qualifying on itv channel I remember, very smooth lap, bascially because he didin't have to correct much a already good handeling car, Benetton was different in 1995, didn't handle as good.

When the car is better like in 2002, it's much harder to see where MS is making up time say mid corner, you really have to have attention to detail and see the commitment on exiting the corner, somtimes the tv cameras just don't pick that up, but being at the track you do, at Spa you'll see it, at Spain you'll see it, good fast corners, Barichello was closer to MS that year, partely due to such a great race car, but at Spa for example, MS was away and away, I very much recommend going to say either the Spa or Spain GPs, as MS has such a great record on those tracks, he attacks those corner in such a way, you'll notice them more on exit and mid corner, some kinetic energy going on there.


Berger commented Senna knew MS would be somethinhg special very early on, Senna did menstion MS's cornering technigue, he couldn't explain it, but admired it.


If you remember Hockenheim this year, Brundle raved about MS's 3rd sector, just way more committed then anything that weekend, MS leaves a margin of reserve, I don't see anyone else really sort of having this reserve where they can commit a bit more, it's a knife edge, because you don't always have to do it, and risk is crashing, but MS does it now and again.

Taken from f1 racing, where Schumi won qualifer of the year:
Behrain, he was 4th fastest in the first sector, 3rd fastest in the 2nd sector, knew he had to turn it around in the final sector, and grabbed pole by four tenths,, technically a recovery, but you don't see anyone else recover like that.



I'm not sure how people remember that, but whatever MS does, he certainly can turn it on and find time, remarkable stuff, he just knows the limit, and more importantly and can attack it.




#26 Chickenman

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 20:22

One of the things that must be taken into account is that many of the cars that Senna drove were Pre-Traction control. Only in later years were the cars he drove using traction control. Thus I don't think that you can really compare Senna's technique to some one like MS's, who has been driving Traction Controlled cars for nearly all of his F1 career. TC takes over a lot of the subtle techniques that a driver used to employ.

As for Ross's comment that Senna could have been faster using a different technique....well we have a perfect comparison bewteen two very different drivers. Alain Prost and Senna at Mclaren. AP the master of smooth and Senna....the master of throttle control. Who was faster? It's a toss up isn't it...with one exception. No one...repeat.. no one could touch Senna in the wet. To me that makes him the better overall driver....and makes me RESPECT that he knew what he was doing with his techniques. He made it work for him....and that's all that really mattered.

#27 b195

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 20:35

The only time MS raced cars with traction control before 2001 would have been during 1993, from Donington 1993 (IIRC) to Australia that same year... So how that time constitutes most of his F1 career, I don't really see. I do agree that most of Senna's career (in fact, all his career apart from 1993 and possibly some/all of 1992) was in cars without TC, however. Senna's technique does seem to be rather unique though.

#28 BorderReiver

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 21:13

Originally posted by Spunout
Yeah. That depends on a car though. Road cars tend to have lots of front brake bias and at least I have found it difficult to employ trail braking effectively. I do recognize the possibility that it´s my lack of skill causing this, of course :D


That'd make it difficult admitedly, you need a certain amount of relative "pliability" up front to employ it in a meaningful way.

#29 mrman_3k

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 22:20

I guess MS probably had to do more steering corrections on that 1995 Benneton compared to the 2004 Ferrari. This year it often looked like him and RB barely moved the steering wheel and had perfectly smooth throttle applications.

#30 nestor

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Posted 11 December 2004 - 22:21

First of all , Hi everybody i'm a newbie , meaning that i don't usually post on this forums but i normally read all the comments that are made on this forums for almost 3 years now , so , now going to the topic i must say that if that technique help Senna to be the fastest driver , it is obviuo that it worked , Senna was a racing genius with all the extention of the word, only him could come out with a driving technique like that, and if i'm not wrong , i think Gilles just to use a similar technique :)

#31 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 23:34

Welcome Nestor,
It is a form of HTC(Human Traction control). I don't know if any of you have any off-road experience, but it's all in the throttle. In certain conditions, one driver may be able to traverse a difficult muddy or rocky steep incline and another may not in the exact same vehicle. Some off road vehicles have progressive or rising throttle control for this very reason. Unless you try it, you won't know what I'm talking about.
Have you heard an engine during doughnuts. There are some that can't do doughnuts, because its all in the throttle control. when you launch a powerful (front engine)car off the line, whether it is a burn out or a trap run, throttle control is all you have to control traction. Winners do it better.
Senna instinctually balanced traction and side slip with the throttle and in the case of the turbo car, he also kept the turbo spinning.
If you watch new fighter planes taking off or landing, you watch the flight control surfaces flapping at high frequencies. It is almost instinctual for some pilots to move the rudder rapidly from left to right on a landing in a light tail dragger plane like a Pitts or an Extra or a J3Cub.

The reason for this that the airflow over these surfaces is so low, that they are very ineffective at slow speeds and need much greater deflection to achieve rotation than would be necessary at higher speeds. If you kept the throttle or the rudder steady, you would not be able to calibrate the amount of deflection required in an ever decreasing or increasing velocity, be it your brain or the electronic flight control computer. Honda was able to map the throttle in it's TC program with the input from Senna's foot work on the throttle pedal. There are some pilots that could never learn to land a Pitts for this reason.
Most drivers or pilots just go for the ride without the knowledge, understanding or the talent to advance their artistry because they lack the sensitivity. This is what sets the men like Senna, Yeager and Author Rubenstein apart. In certain heads, the human brain is the most remarkable instrument.
Why, there are even some on this BB who could even splain it better than I have done.


Originally posted by nestor
First of all , Hi everybody i'm a newbie , meaning that i don't usually post on this forums but i normally read all the comments that are made on this forums for almost 3 years now , so , now going to the topic i must say that if that technique help Senna to be the fastest driver , it is obviuo that it worked , Senna was a racing genius with all the extention of the word, only him could come out with a driving technique like that, and if i'm not wrong , i think Gilles just to use a similar technique :)



#32 Chickenman

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 02:58

Originally posted by b195
The only time MS raced cars with traction control before 2001 would have been during 1993, from Donington 1993 (IIRC) to Australia that same year... So how that time constitutes most of his F1 career, I don't really see. I do agree that most of Senna's career (in fact, all his career apart from 1993 and possibly some/all of 1992) was in cars without TC, however. Senna's technique does seem to be rather unique though.


If my flagging memory serves me correct, most of the top teams were using some form of TC ( legal or not ) since 1999 and possibly before. Searching Atlas brought up various threads, including this one from Mar,2000:

http://forums.atlasf...Control History.

So it looks like TC was well in use in 2000....I believe earlier as well, although I can't remember :confused:

>Edit: Memory ( with the help of Google) getting better. Article from BBC about FIA recognising that some teams were using "illegal" Traction control in 1998 and 1999. Much more info out there as well.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ort/1025213.stm

By peer pressure alone ( keeping up with the " Jones" ), you can bet that the Top teams at that time were all using it.<

TC was definately used in 1993, probably not in 1994 through 96, but I seem to recall that it started to " creep" back in ( hidden of course ) during the late '90's. I certainly remember watching some races ( particularily from Monaco ), in the late '90's, where certain cars were making some very " peculiar" sounds from their engines exiting slow corners. And no...they weren't ALL red...LOL.

Perhaps someone with a better memory than my "seive for a brain" can shed some light on this. I seem to recall that " hidden " TC was quite the hot Topic in the late '90's and eventually led to the FIA throwing up it's hands when it realised ( eventually ) that it couldn't really police TC.

#33 SeanValen

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 03:48

Michael Schumacher didn't have traction control on his benetton in 1993, at least definately earlier in the season, especially at Donington Park, he went straight off, if he did, it wasn't rated very highly, I definately remember that being menstioned.




And another thing, Senna had traction control at Donnington, so did alot of others, but he still had to use it better then anyone else, go faster etc, same with MS now, he still has to go faster with the same traction control RB is using etc.

I actually think it's quite impressive to still be making a difference given the aids on the car, to push every last ounce of time you can find, and that requires talent, the only think it does do though, is make a good or rookie driver better, but the best drivers are above that, and will make the difference still.

#34 soubriquet

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 07:34

From very unreliable memory, LJKS (I think) described Fangio (I think, aargh) using a technique of fluttering the throttle as a form of traction control. I have also seen it reported that Gilles Villeneuve used to hold the turbo Ferrari throttle wide open through a corner to eliminate lag when he re-engaged drive to power out.

(It's 35 years since I last rode a British bike, but I still get my gearchange foot mixed with my braking foot. I don't dare try left foot braking in a car :mad: )

#35 desmo

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 08:10

There are bikes that shift on the left??!!

#36 Arrow

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 17:26

Originally posted by wawawa
It's nothing extra-special. Its just the way he controls the car with the throttle. Instead of where I think the majority of drivers that I've known (Damon, DC, Gerhard, Hakkinen) when they brake, change down the gears, and then go on-and-off the throttle (Ayrton was the biggest example of that - when he used to be in the middle of a corner, his throttle movement used to be so quick), whereas Michael has this braking, changing down, and then he's constantly on the throttle straight away.


John watson and Damon hill were shown being interviewed before herbert and they were raving about his astonishing speed and technique with watson saying he literally couldnt beleive his eyes at michaels entry speeds and then you had herbert nonchalantly chiming in with the above quoted bullshit, trying to downplay michaels driving.
I literally cracked up while listening to him because it was so inline with every other time id seen him comment on michael.
He really is a sad bitter little man.

In regards to sennas technique, i rememeber reading jackie stewart commenting about it when talking about senna still being rough around the edges and having things to learn despite being at the lofty level he was before his demise.He didnt agree with his throttle style and said it was too unsettling for the chassis and not the optimum way to drive.
Irvine also said the same thing when he was comparing michael to senna a number of years ago, saying that his technique is fundamentally inferior to michaels, "it just cant be the right way to drive"."Michael is hard on the brakes then bam hes on the throttle, he gives you nothing, always taking time off you".

Im sure senna would of been quicker if he drove in the optimum manner.

#37 nestor

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 17:59

Well, i don't know , but i never saw MS being faster than Senna , or hear people saying that JS was or look faster than AS, nonetheless , we don't know if Senna was still using that technique after the turbo years, i mean in the '90s and if he was using it in F1 cars , he probably was using it in road cars , but to find out we would need to see his telemetry from the '90s :confused:

#38 zango

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 18:32

Originally posted by desmo
There are bikes that shift on the left??!!


Yes. Case in point being the Yezdi that is aparently still being sold in India. If look at the bikes carefully you will notice that the foot break is on right where as the shifter, which also doubles up as the kick start by the way, is on the left.

I have some fond memories of that bike.

#39 DaleCooper

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 18:48

nestor, you probably didn't even NOTICE schumacher while Senna was still around :lol:

I think people here are doing a little too much fishing, none of which will lead to anything. It is extremely difficult to comment on driver technique when the quality and subtlety of the cars involved is unknown to us. Even Jackie Stewart couldn't possibly know how the cars Senna drove handled. Ultimately you can criticise technique all you want, it is the resultant speed that matters, and no-one would criticize Senna for that :)
I can't remember exactly anymore, but Schumacher said recently(2 years at most) that what he remembers most about Senna was the special way he drove his cars. I think that for a driver, that must be about the best compliment.
I also propose a simpler explanation for Senna's driving technique, perhaps it partly allowed him to better feel for the limit, even if using this technique the limit would arrive a little sooner (I am basing this on static and kinetic coefficients of friction, but don't know the particulars of the tire compounds)


Cooper

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#40 Chickenman

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 18:50

I really think that if Senna was around today :cry: , he would have abandened this technique and let the electronic TC do it's thing. But in the era he drove, most of it pre-TC and Turbo's, this was a technique he developed that obviously worked. Already mentioned by Brian and others the factor of " Human TC" and keeping the Turbos spooled.

I did notice that the NSX had a fairly long throttle travel, and believe, at that time, the NSX was using " Drive by Wire". So throttle travel will have some bearing on the sensitivity of the input. JV apparently preferrs a throttle with minimal travel......almost an onoff switch. That would make sense with todays electronics which are far more sensitive than the human foot....but back in Senna's day, that advantage was not so clear cut.

On a side note, I had the pleasure of watching Gilles race right from his first days in Atlantics at my home track ( Westwood or " Wetwood" as we call it ) and at Long Beach in 79,80 and 81. Never did you hear ANY wavering of the throttle. He was always either FLAT on the gas or flat on the brakes....and in the Turbos years, yes...I suspect he sometimes had both feet planted at the same time :clap:

#41 desmo

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 19:33

Images on your hard drive won't post here. Pity though.

#42 mrman_3k

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 21:51

The throttle travel is totally driver dependent. For example, Rubens Barrichello runs a very short throttle similar to the length of travel in most decent road cars (about the same as a BMW 330).

Schumi on the other hand has a VERY long pedal travel. If you ever get the chance to sit in a car Schumacher drove and it has the pedal setup he used, it is amazing. Frank Mountain said it best and it is so true, "you don't understand until you sit in one." The best way I can try and describe it is stick your leg out and make your foot go down as much as possible, that is about how much throttle travel Schumi runs. You start out in a normal position and make your foot go about as far as possible. The travel distance is a good 5-6 inches.

#43 Chickenman

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 23:33

Originally posted by mrman_3k
The throttle travel is totally driver dependent. For example, Rubens Barrichello runs a very short throttle similar to the length of travel in most decent road cars (about the same as a BMW 330).

Schumi on the other hand has a VERY long pedal travel. If you ever get the chance to sit in a car Schumacher drove and it has the pedal setup he used, it is amazing. Frank Mountain said it best and it is so true, "you don't understand until you sit in one." The best way I can try and describe it is stick your leg out and make your foot go down as much as possible, that is about how much throttle travel Schumi runs. You start out in a normal position and make your foot go about as far as possible. The travel distance is a good 5-6 inches.


Yes...that was what I was referring to with the NSX throttle travel being " Drive by wire", but I didn't make it clear enough. Would be a simple thing to map the throttle to the drivers preference. IE: Senna's.

Interesting comment about Schumi's throttle length. What year was this comment referring to?

#44 b195

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 00:05

It was when Frank Mountain picked up an ex-MS F2001 earlier this year. It seemed to be that the pedal travel was not specific to that car, and that Rubens prefers a short travel accelerator pedal (similar to JV I guess), while Michael prefers a long travel pedal. Mountain went with the longer travel pedal as he didn't like the idea of all the power arriving in such a hurry :cool:

#45 Simioni

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 02:01

Originally posted by Arrow
Im sure senna would of been quicker if he drove in the optimum manner.


Do you have any idea how pretentious that sounds :lol:

#46 mrman_3k

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 03:15

Interesting comment about Schumi's throttle length. What year was this comment referring to?



Well that quote like b195 said is from when Frank Mountain was buying his F2001.

You guys will probably find this interesting but I've had the opportunity to sit in the F310B (1997), F1-2000, and F2003-GA. Over the years especially between the F310B and F1-2000, the throttle travel increased a good inch or so. Seems like he really likes to be able to play around with the throttle.

I think as a driver, I'm more of the RB style where I like a shorter throttle pedal, but obviously the long one works wonders with some people.

#47 ferrarifan2000

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 05:16

here's a video that talks about ayrton's throttle technique and m schumacher's technique


http://www.ferrarich...15&page=1&pp=20

#48 HP

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 05:43

Originally posted by desmo
There are bikes that shift on the left??!!

Yup, I rode one. Glad that the shifting mechanism needed a lot of force, compared to the brake..

#49 HP

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 05:55

Originally posted by Chickenman


If my flagging memory serves me correct, most of the top teams were using some form of TC ( legal or not ) since 1999 and possibly before. Searching Atlas brought up various threads, including this one from Mar,2000:

http://forums.atlasf...Control History.

So it looks like TC was well in use in 2000....I believe earlier as well, although I can't remember :confused:

>Edit: Memory ( with the help of Google) getting better. Article from BBC about FIA recognising that some teams were using "illegal" Traction control in 1998 and 1999. Much more info out there as well.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ort/1025213.stm

By peer pressure alone ( keeping up with the " Jones" ), you can bet that the Top teams at that time were all using it.<

TC was definately used in 1993, probably not in 1994 through 96, but I seem to recall that it started to " creep" back in ( hidden of course ) during the late '90's. I certainly remember watching some races ( particularily from Monaco ), in the late '90's, where certain cars were making some very " peculiar" sounds from their engines exiting slow corners. And no...they weren't ALL red...LOL.

Perhaps someone with a better memory than my "seive for a brain" can shed some light on this. I seem to recall that " hidden " TC was quite the hot Topic in the late '90's and eventually led to the FIA throwing up it's hands when it realised ( eventually ) that it couldn't really police TC.

I think what you are talking about is engine mapping. Enging mapping was legal, because it didn't get any feedback you need for a TC. The team that had illegal TC in the late 90's is rumoured to be Stewart, because Max Mosley was mentioning that it didn't alter the outcome of the championship, thus eliminating Ferrari and McLaren, and Stewart was impresive that year. Ferrari however did use engine mapping, other teams probably as well, as Ferrari was said to have the most advanced version of it.

#50 Cogs

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 07:42

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by desmo
There are bikes that shift on the left??!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Better yet, how 'bout those old Bridgestones with that wacky "rotary shift". Not only was it on the left, but you just kept stomping down to go through the gears. If you forgot the pattern and "upshifted"...well, you went to first. Upshift again and you're in neutral! Lather, rinse, repeat!! :drunk:

Cogs