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Was it always like this at the RACMSA ?


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#1 RTH

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 14:16

If you ever wondered what the UK's motor sport governing body did with all the licence money, this might be of interest.

www.msauk.info

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#2 MCS

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 16:24

Can't say I'm too surprised, Richard - my wife worked there for 18 months...

The two gentlemen who resigned in 2001 must have left Colnbrook with smiles on their faces though (understatement).

Mark

#3 BRG

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 16:55

Bloody hell! I always suspected that there was something not right about the MSA. And I have never really understood who 'owned' the MSA and hence the right to run British motorsport, nor who gave them that right.

Individuals there have often been really helpdful but the instiutional culture has always been over-inclined to regulate, and to charge us for the privilege of being regulated, but never seems to have been pro-actively trying to improve British motorsport. Their failure to do anything at all about promoting closed-road legislation for rallying is a case in point. Such legislation has been successfully obtained for the Birmingham Superprix, for the Tour of Mull and for Jim Clark Rally, but the MSA was unhelpful if not positively obstructive to these. Someone tried to close roads in Milton Keynes for a rally a few years back and got nothing but obstructiveness from the MSA.

As chairman of a motor club, I was personally involved in fighting the MSA's attempts to impose licencing on grass-roots competitors (autotest, gymkhanas, and that sort of thing) some years back, which we defeated at the time, but which I believe they have revived again recently.

Let's hope this proves a serious wake-up call for Colnbrook. Although I am not holding my breath.

#4 JtP

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 18:34

So the post boy is alive and well and still employed at the RACMSA.

A friend had the misfortune at one time to run a hillclimb and had to write to the RACMSA on a regular basis. When spell checking, the SC would not recognise RACMSA and offered alternatives to the woed, the first being rectum.

#5 Peter Morley

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 17:09

Originally posted by BRG
Bloody hell! I always suspected that there was something not right about the MSA. And I have never really understood who 'owned' the MSA and hence the right to run British motorsport, nor who gave them that right.


That's not just an issue with the MSA, it is an issue with the FIA as well.

Who gave the FIA the right to run global motorsport (and to appoint regional administrators such as the MSA)?

It looks rather like the whole thing is a self imposed organisation.

#6 BRG

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 17:20

Originally posted by Peter Morley
Who gave the FIA the right to run global motorsport (and to appoint regional administrators such as the MSA)?

Surely the FIA is a Federation of all of our various unelected MSAs rather than the other way around? The MSAs form the World Council that is supposed to be the FIA's governing body.

That has long been one of my beefs with the UK MSA - that it doesn't seem to do anything to rein in the excesses of the FIA. But that may be a common failing with international sporting authorities. Look at the International Olympic Committee or FIFA for instance, either of which make the FIA look pretty accountable and effective in comparison.

#7 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 19:41

In Australia the bluff has been called - or the Emperor's nakedness has been recognised - with the Australian Auto Sports Alliance (at least I think that's what they call it) having emerged to offer alternative, competitive, cheaper, more sensible, more flexible governance of motor sporting events than the FIA-affiliated Confederation of Australian Motor Sport (CAMS) has provided in recent years - and from what I am told by people whose opinion I respect have provided over many years...

From my experience of the new authority in overseeing the recent Classic Adelaide Rally their involvement is light of touch, firm yet virtually invisible - the term gossamer springs to mind :drunk: - encouraging a most enjoyable event.

In contrast I personally recall past CAMS involvement as having largely proved to be heavy-handed, intrusive, over-bearing, obstructive and immensely inflexible.

Wherever motor sport is organised it requires an authority prepared to act as a facilitator first, an enforcer second. This should not be too much to expect when such authority exits solely on the competitors' and the organsers' fee payments.

When the reverse has become the norm - an authority acting first as enforcer and only fourthly or fifthly (if you're lucky) as a facilitator - the sport and the participants have become its victims.

Having said all the above, again in my experience the RAC MSA in the UK has proved generally to be very helpful, flexible, accommodating and intelligent if leaned upon heavily enough by people to whom they are prepared to listen...

So my advice would be yes indeed, go ahead and push back if you feel oppressed, or over-charged, or even defrauded.

And remember that in the Australian example we have a hugely promising precedent - the thin end of an immensely exciting wedge which if driven home could convert the FIA from its age-old self-satisfaction as a club for flannelled and blazered bureaucrats, so many masquerading at the clubs' expense as people to respect, and value...

DCN

#8 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 21:54

Originally posted by Peter Morley


That's not just an issue with the MSA, it is an issue with the FIA as well.

Who gave the FIA the right to run global motorsport (and to appoint regional administrators such as the MSA)?

It looks rather like the whole thing is a self imposed organisation.

For newcomers
http://forums.atlasf...9&highlight=FIA

#9 Gary C

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 23:36

maybe it is time to do something.....

#10 JtP

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 00:31

Originally posted by Gary C
maybe it is time to do something.....



You have more chance finding Holy water in the Orange Lodge.

#11 Wolf

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 01:56

Originally posted by Gary C
maybe it is time to do something.....


What, Gary- we're way past 'revolution eats its own children' stage... : I may be too persistent (read: boring) in emphasising the fact that TV rigts to F1 (presumably, given by Concorde Agreement, to which FIA was participant) were given to company (owned by- you know who) which gives significant discount for F1 coverage to TV stations which oblige themselves not, rpt. not, to broadcast any other motorsport live. Does that sound logical?!?

#12 Peter Morley

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 13:28

Originally posted by BRG
Surely the FIA is a Federation of all of our various unelected MSAs rather than the other way around? The MSAs form the World Council that is supposed to be the FIA's governing body.

That has long been one of my beefs with the UK MSA - that it doesn't seem to do anything to rein in the excesses of the FIA. But that may be a common failing with international sporting authorities. Look at the International Olympic Committee or FIFA for instance, either of which make the FIA look pretty accountable and effective in comparison.


The structure does not really matter - these outfits are self elected, whether the MSA's vote for their own dictator or the dictator gives the chosen his blessing (and potentially considerable wealth) - the people they affect have no say in the process.

They are all very similar - as are plenty of other events, like the Eurovision Song Contest.

(In fact they are ran the way the British seem to think the EU runs - which of course is not true, you get to vote for the people who run Europe (at least as much as you do for your own government), the fact you decide not to is your choice/ignorance).

They organise a few events, that are very popular (hence these people gain credibility), and because they involve a wide range of nationalities they appear to be multi-national (e.g. beyond national government).

But they have no exclusive right to do what they do. They usually have the rights to a name but that is all.
Anyone who wants to do so can organise a football tournament, international athletic's competition, motor race or song & dance competition.

(This is basically what the manufacturers keep pointing out to Bernie, they can go and have their own races if they want to do so - nothing he or anyone can do to stop them).

The FIA came unstuck when the EU commission pointed out that some of their practices were anti-sompetitive, since then there have been less threats to circuit owners who are thinking about straying and so on.
(And of course the FIA have been bending over backwards to justify their existance - notably as a contributor to road safety).

How accountable any of them are is irrelevant, they are all private organisations and can do what they like - the only risk is to their credibility (and in the end will anyone not watch the Olympics because the venue selection process is a joke??).

#13 MonzaDriver

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 10:40

RTH,
You started this thread in a way that is a MASTERPIECE.
My compliments, and a thank you from my soul.

To everyones following your line of reasoning I would like to do a comparison.
In this thread we are all on the same frequency. Really tune in.
Be patient and if you read carefully I am sure you will agree with me.
The comparison is with an EARTHQUAKE.
Today's state of motor racing is so poor, imagine it, like an Earthquake,
so powerful, that the buildings (read federations all around the world),
of an entire city (motor racing environment) are razed to the ground.
Well what we are speaking here it's the EPICENTRE of the eartquake.
And RTH indicated it in this fabolous manner.


Motor racing was ruled in the past from some persons, some gentlemens,
in my opinion ( 2 cents) they surely was gentlemens but I am not sure how much they liked to work, I mean work to adapt sport automobile to the changing of the time and from to be
a club sport to a world-wide audience.
Then "someone" take the place of those gentlemans, and surely with work and commitment,
he direct the sport toward a different.............................................solutions.

So maybe the right recipe, is a gentlement ( in the soul) with willing to really work.
A difficult thing to find.
MonzaDriver.

#14 Rob29

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 14:28

This is something I have often wondered about. In the USA there is no overall controlling body for motorsport. NASCAR/SCCA/CART/IRL/NHRA,etc,etc, all issue their own licences. Could BARC/BRSCC,etc do the same in UK?

#15 RAP

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 14:39

This is something I have often wondered about. In the USA there is no overall controlling body for motorsport. NASCAR/SCCA/CART/IRL/NHRA,etc,etc, all issue their own licences. Could BARC/BRSCC,etc do the same in UK?



Which is about the best justification I can think of for the MSA's existance. Look how destructive "santioning wars" have been in the USA over almost the whole history of motor racing -most recently IRLs attempt to kill CART, but previous boycotts on drivers etc.

#16 Peter Morley

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 15:15

Originally posted by Rob29
This is something I have often wondered about. In the USA there is no overall controlling body for motorsport. NASCAR/SCCA/CART/IRL/NHRA,etc,etc, all issue their own licences. Could BARC/BRSCC,etc do the same in UK?


They could, but they would have to meet various legal requirements and so on. It would require much more infrastructure - of course you do not need to have such things as licences, you can simply allow anyone to take part, the advantage of licences is you can remove them and hence exclude unwanted participants.

As RAP pointed out in countries where this happens it is not necessarily an improvement, but that is not necessarily a fault of the system, more likely the people involved. It certainly looks like those countries offer far more opportunities, and a much wider variety of events (but that could also be a function of the size of those countries).

The advantage of any monopoly is that there is only one set of rules to play by, while the people running the monopoly have the same interests as the participants everyone is happy, the problems start when their objectives vary.

I think it safe to say that most people who are affected by the FIA/MSA (except for the ones near the top (e.g. F1, WRC etc) who simply get offered enough money to keep them happy) would be happier if they at least had some say in who these people were, and in some of the decisions they make, perhaps it is time for the club members to be given the vote?

#17 Paul Ranson

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 23:57

Some motorsport in the UK is outside the FIA/MSA purview. BRISCA for instance. And drag racing stands somewhat on its own.

Also I think the MSA has a relationship with the government regarding use of public roads for pleasure completely outside of competition. If you want to organise a pleasure drive with more than 12 cars you need to talk to them about the route, for instance.

Paul