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Rallye Paris St. Raphael


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#1 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 13:14

Does anyone know where I could possibly find a results site for the Rallye Paris-St. Raphael?

It was a female race, if I remember well, anf first edition of the rally happened before World War 2.

Thanks.

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#2 Mike Riedner

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 15:36

Here is a little bit of something:

http://www.zaniroli....s/view.php/3395

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 16:06

...though it was always a rally, never a race

#4 anjakub

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Posted 17 January 2005 - 18:56

I Rallye Feminin Paris – Saint Raphael
February 20-24, 1929
Paris – Vichy – Lyon – Avignon – Miramas – La Ciotat – Hyeres – Saint Raphael (1087 km)
Start 20 ladies, finish 16 (12 without penalty points)
Classification (on the basis 5 km speed trial and 2 km hill climb) :
1. Lietard (Salmson)
2. Schell (Talbot)
3. Vivier (Citroen)
4. Heu (Citroen)
5. Lang (Rosengart)

Posted Image

Madame Lietard

Posted Image

Two minutes before start

Posted Image

The start of the second stage

Source Auto (sorry, poor quality)

#5 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 11:42

Miss Renée Friderich, daughter of Bugatti driver Ernest, was killed on 24 February 1932 during the Paris-St.-Raphaël Rallyn at the wheel of a Delahaye.

I've found an other accident that happened in (May?) 1970 during the Paris-St.-Raphaël Rally, in which a female driver named Acary (or Acamy?) was killed. I have not any other information about.

#6 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 19:45

Renée Friederich was driving a D8 Delage and not a Delahaye.

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#7 gerrit stevens

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 14:49

Originally posted by anjakub
I Rallye Feminin Paris – Saint Raphael
February 20-24, 1929
Paris – Vichy – Lyon – Avignon – Miramas – La Ciotat – Hyeres – Saint Raphael (1087 km)
Start 20 ladies, finish 16 (12 without penalty points)
Classification (on the basis 5 km speed trial and 2 km hill climb) :
1. Lietard (Salmson)
2. Schell (Talbot)
3. Vivier (Citroen)
4. Heu (Citroen)
5. Lang (Rosengart)

Posted Image

Madame Lietard

Posted Image

Two minutes before start

Posted Image

The start of the second stage

Source Auto (sorry, poor quality)



I found only


Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael (1), 20 - 24 February 1929

Paris – Vichy – Lyon – Avignon – Miramas – La Ciotat – Hyeres – Saint Raphael (1087 km)

Start 20 ladies, finish 16 (12 without penalty points)

Classification (on the basis 5 km speed trial and 2 km hill climb) :

   1 Lietard											   F			Salmson

   2 Schell															 Talbot

   3 Vivier															 Citroen  

   4 Heu																Citroen

   5 Lang															   Rosengart





Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael ( ??), 1937

   1 Mme Rouault														

   2 Mme Simon

   3 Mlle Desforet

source: Miroir des Sports 1938





Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael ( ??), 28 May 1961

   1 G. Renault – J. Pivoit								F/F		  Dauphine Gordini	  995,34

   2 A. Nioncelle – G. de Rolland									   Dauphine Gordini	 1016,08

   3 A. Kissel – N. Kissel											  Panhard			  1137,38

   4 N. Courault – C. Taste											 Citroen ID 19		1160,70

   5 G. Pare – S. Darmangeat											Simca Montlhéry	  1670,43

source: Sport Mondial no. 65





Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael (21), 19 May 1963

   1 Lucette Pontet – Mme. Dutel						   F/F		  Citroën DS 19		  774

   2 G. Renault – Mme Bivois							   F/F		  Renault				777

   3 Mme Petit – Mlle Mondoloni										 Renault				823

   4 Mlle Mahieuw – Mlle Delcourt						  F/F		  Alfa Romeo 

   5 Mlle Petit – Mlle Hanni											Porsche

   6 Mme Martino – Mme Maradji										  Porsche

   7 Mlle Mermod – Mlle Perré										   Alfa Romeo

   8 Mme Spinedi – Mme Derolland										Austin-Cooper

   9 N. Courault – Mme Espiard										  Citroën DS 19

  10 Mme Pierrat – Mme Schmidt										  Citroën ID 19

source: Sport Mondial no. 86





Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael, 20-27 May 1973, round 10 ERC

   1 Marianne Hoepfner – Yveline Vanoni					F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	1.19.01,8

   2 "Charlotte" – Marie-José Hommel					   F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	1.20.44

   3 Marie-Pierre Palayer – M-F Helly					  F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	1.21.57

   4 Christine Dacremont – Françoise Conconi			   F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	1.25.16

   5 Donatella Tominz – Gabriella Mamolo				   I/I		  Fiat 124 Spyder		1.25.45,6

Source: Autocourse 1973-74 





Rallye Féminin Paris – Saint Raphael, 8-12 May 1974, round 9 ERC

   1 "Christine" – "Biche"								 F/F		  Lancia Stratos		 2.47.30 (Group 5 ineligible for championship)

   2 Charlotte Verney – Legou							  F/F		  Porsche 911 Carrera RS 2.48.36

   3 Donatella Tominz – Gabriella Mamolo				   I/I		  Fiat Abarth 124 Rally  2.53.37

   4 "Charlotte" – Duran								   F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	2.54.25

   5 Michele Mouton – Furia								F/F		  Alpine A110 Renault	2.55.21

Source: Autocourse 1974-75



Claudine Trautmann winner in 1964-66-67-68-69

Marianne Hoepfner winner 1972


Gerrit Stevens

#8 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:47

Nothing about M.me Acary (or Acamy)?

#9 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:27

Just be patient... TNFs solve:

Marguerite Accarie (not Acary):
http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=4160

:cool:


#10 LotusElise

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:55

I've started putting together all the winners on Speedqueens:

http://speedqueens.b...hael-rally.html

It's still a work in progress, and information is always welcome.

#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:19

1938
Category A
1 Betty Haig (MG) 2980
2 Mrs AC Lace (Talbot) 2824
3 Mimi Descollas (Lancia) 2323
4 Germaine Rouault (Delahaye) 2237
5 Dorothy Stanley Turner (MG) 2213
6 Amy Johnson (Talbot) 2176
7 Mlle Lamberjack (Talbot) 2098
8 Yvette Simon (Hotchkiss) 2075
9 Mlle Carsignol (Georges Irat) 2057
10 Mlle d'Oncieu (Georges Irat) 2029
11 Mme Kronbauerova (Aero) 1767
12 Mme Loerz (Ford) 1025
Category B
1 Mme Largeot (Simca) 2286
2 Mme Roux (Amilcar) 1889
3 Mme Dassonville (Peugeot) 1791
4 Mme Boscher (Hotchkiss) 1764
5 Mme Jourdan (Peugeot) 1738
6 Mme Prost (Renault) 1696
7 Mme Reybert (Renault) 1689
8 Mme Dequeker (Delahaye) 1492
9 Mme Blandin (Bugatti) 1420

Edited by Vitesse2, 27 April 2012 - 21:19.


#12 LotusElise

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:55

Thanks for that.

Are Mimi and Claire Descollas the same person? One of them (I've always assumed Claire) was the wife of Gaston Descollas.
They seem to compete in the same cars.

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:03

Thanks for that.

Are Mimi and Claire Descollas the same person? One of them (I've always assumed Claire) was the wife of Gaston Descollas.
They seem to compete in the same cars.

Yes, one and the same (une et la même?). Married to Gaston.

The French National Library website Gallica is a very good source for pre-war Paris-St Raphael reports and results, although it does need a bit of work to find them as only some of the newspapers are searchable by keyword. I compiled those 1938 results using a combination of Le Figaro and l'Intransigeant (plus the Journal de Genève from the Le Temps archive, since the route ran through Switzerland and they visited the Geneva Motor Show)

Edited by Vitesse2, 28 April 2012 - 08:08.


#14 BRG

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 14:47

A bit late referring back to post#7 from 2005, but was G. Renault (1st 1961 and 2nd 1963) from the Renault car company family?

And why was the event in 1973 & 4 shown as a round of the European Rally Championship? How could it be if it wasn't open to all (ie male competitors)?

#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 16:41

And why was the event in 1973 & 4 shown as a round of the European Rally Championship? How could it be if it wasn't open to all (ie male competitors)?

The 1973 event is shown in the Yellow Book as specifically part of the European Cup for Ladies, which otherwise encompassed all rounds of the European Rally Championship. I don't have the 1974 Yellow Book, but it was presumably the same.

And overall, the points scoring system was so bloody complicated that I doubt it inconvenienced anybody. No points were awarded for an event if there were fewer than 40 starters, only the best six scores overall could be counted (from about 25 possible) and drivers also could only count their best two events per country! (Quite how that works for the Munich-Vienna-Budapest or the Lyon-Charbonnieres-Stuttgart-Solitude I have no idea!) Presumably the idea was that you could run a campaign regionally so that (for example) Scandinavians wouldn't have to trek off to Italy, Portugal or Yugoslavia and could just take part in the Nordic events. In the 1974 championship, a driver called Pradera scored a total of 42 points in 3 rallies, but they were all in Spain, so he had to drop the 12 for third place in the Firestone - this dropped him down the overall list from 6th to one of five placed joint 9th: three of the others in that group were Markku Alen, Stig Blomqvist and Jean-Pierre Nicolas!

The 1975 scoring system was even more complicated, involving four different coefficients, but 1974 appears to have been the last Rallye Féminin.

#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 17:12

According to the ERC points table for 1973 published in Autosport, both Donatella Tominz and Marianne Hoepfner counted points from the Paris-St Raphael in their final totals.

#17 LotusElise

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 21:10

It counted for manufacturers, but the dedicated drivers' standings came after its demise.

#18 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:06

The 1973 ERC was a drivers' championship. As far as I can tell there was no award for manufacturers.

#19 LotusElise

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:10

No you're right, I'm thinking of the WRC.

I'm guessing there was some sort of points coefficient which meant that a win on the St Raphael didn't count for that many points as a win in a mixed-entry event.

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#20 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:46

The 1973 table published in Autosport shows that the points scored by Hoepfner (1st, 20 points) and Tominz (5th, 8 points) on the Paris-St Raphael match the scores from the other events. (The 1973 ERC was scored 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1).

#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:47

No you're right, I'm thinking of the WRC.

I'm guessing there was some sort of points coefficient which meant that a win on the St Raphael didn't count for that many points as a win in a mixed-entry event.

No, the points tables indicate that it was of equal value. As I posted above, the coefficients weren't introduced until 1975.

#22 BRG

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 19:58

The 1973 table published in Autosport shows that the points scored by Hoepfner (1st, 20 points) and Tominz (5th, 8 points) on the Paris-St Raphael match the scores from the other events. (The 1973 ERC was scored 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1).

I have always been a proponent of more female participation in motorsport, but it was still wrong to allow an event to count for a championship when most competitors were precluded by their gender. Some sort of wrong headed affirmative action perhaps?

#23 D-Type

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:12

I have always been a proponent of more female participation in motorsport, but it was still wrong to allow an event to count for a championship when most competitors were precluded by their gender. Some sort of wrong headed affirmative action perhaps?

My reading of the situation, based on post #15, is that the intention was that it would be a qualifying round in the women's championship only. On that basis, claiming points towards the main ERC is incorrect and inappropriate, which is the point you are making.

#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:31

There wasn't a separate championship for women. According to the FIA Year Book, for 1973 the European Rally Cup for Ladies would be awarded to the 'female driver having obtained the highest total of points in the overall classification of the European Rally Championship'.