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Crazy racing engines


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#1 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 December 2004 - 23:00

What are the weird/strange/extreme/incredible engines have you seen meant for 2 wheeler or 4 wheeler closed circuit racing?

Like Honda's NR500. And their 1961 RC143 claimed 23 horsepower from an air-cooled 125cc four-stroke twin at 14,000 rpm !!! The 50cc RC113 made 10+ horsepower at 19,000 rpm.

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#2 indigoid

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Posted 30 December 2004 - 23:56

for me, BRM's supercharged 1.6 (or is it 1.5?) litre V16 takes the biscuit. sounds incredible, too! IIRC 370-420 bhp at around 11500rpm, depending on what book you are reading

#3 VAR1016

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 00:05

Originally posted by indigoid
for me, BRM's supercharged 1.6 (or is it 1.5?) litre V16 takes the biscuit. sounds incredible, too! IIRC 370-420 bhp at around 11500rpm, depending on what book you are reading




Tony Rudd who was involved with the development of this design states in his book "It was Fun" that he regularly saw over 600BHP during the later development of this engine.

And you are quite right: nothing sounds like a V-16 when it's really shrieking. V-10s? eat your hearts out.

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#4 ivanalesi

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 00:41

Anyone has recorded sounds of this engine? It would be great for mobile:)))

My bet is on the Audi's 2.2 turbo charged engine, i know it could have gone over extraordinary limits, it was only raced at 600bhp, but they have been developing a version with 900bhp, but their test drivers have stated that the car has been impossible to drive, especially slow down!
Ferrari's 312 engine wasnt bad too, though smooky, but extremely powerful!:)))

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 00:44

According to the Raymond Mays/Peter Roberts book, the best they saw was 585bhp at 11,500...

But it was still an incredible feat in that era. On a brew, of course. And with a centrifugal supercharger (built by Rolls-Royce) that spun up at about five or six times crank speed (IIRC) so that the power came in with a big bang as the revs rose.

No wonder Fangio was the only one to really tame that animal!

Along with its aircraft springing units, trailing arm front suspension, dodgy steering ('Can rack and pinion steering be tried?' was S C Moss' plea after a test at Monza) and for a couple of years an ability to suddenly have a disastrous hydraulic lock in one or two cylinders...

#6 indigoid

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:15

Another one... the quad-rotor R26B from the Mazda 787B racecar. Sadly Mazda never figured out that a quad rotor production car, even with a relaxed and hopefully reliable 350-400hp, could in fact be quite entertaining :(

#7 dolomite

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 01:47

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#8 indigoid

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 04:42

dolomite,

what on earth is THAT? I thought the 1920s lancia V4s looked like cubes, but that thing is even more cubelike!

#9 desmo

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 05:05

BRM H-16.

#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 06:19

...with its inlet trumpets all aligned perfectly to pick up gravel off the wheels in the event of any corner cutting...

Incredibly it actually won a Grand Epreuve.

#11 ZoRG

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 10:32

Ford RS200 I think was around 700hp in the rally version?

#12 Wuzak

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 10:45

Originally posted by ivanalesi
Anyone has recorded sounds of this engine? It would be great for mobile


Yes, there is a clip on the net somewhere of the BRM V16.

http://www.farzadsf1...m/f1_sounds.php has the shorter version of it. There is a longer version somewhere.

The Matra V12s are said to be better sounding, but I haven't found a decent recording of one of them yet.


Crazy racing engines? What about the Life W12?

#13 dolomite

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 11:07

Originally posted by indigoid
dolomite,

what on earth is THAT? I thought the 1920s lancia V4s looked like cubes, but that thing is even more cubelike!


It's the BRM H-16. That particular one is an experimental version with four valves per cylinder, which AFAIK never raced.

#14 VAR1016

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 11:25

Amongst the stranger ones were the 1.5 litre FIATs of 1926/7.

There were two engines. The first was a 12-cylinder supercharged two-stroke with two crankshafts and opposed pistons; this was very powerful but suffered from severe overheating.

The second, which won the 1927 Milan Grand Prix - its only appearance - was a twelve-cylinder with two vertical six-cylinder blocks and two crankshafts; this was also very powerful (c. 180BHP) but sadly the project and all tools and jigs were scrapped - apparently on the orders of Agnelli himself.

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#15 kikiturbo2

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 12:35

can someone explain the reasoning behind all this "scrapping" of tools and jigs that is present in motorsport...? I mean, I never ever throw anything away that I created.... just in case... btu throwing away tooling and drawings of a racing car or an engine, when you run a realtively large company is madness IMHO.... :confused:

#16 VAR1016

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 13:10

Originally posted by kikiturbo2
can someone explain the reasoning behind all this "scrapping" of tools and jigs that is present in motorsport...? I mean, I never ever throw anything away that I created.... just in case... btu throwing away tooling and drawings of a racing car or an engine, when you run a realtively large company is madness IMHO.... :confused:


Ferrari was famus for scrapping obsolescent racing cars including all the Lancia material from the D50 project and the exquisite shark-nosed cars.

As for FIAT in the 1920s, it is difficult to say, but perhaps designers were rather independently-minded and the directors may have felt that the expense had to stop once and for all!

Louis Coatalen at Sunbeam was an example: the directors ordered him to produce only four-cylinder cars. However on a visit a director drew Coatalen's attention to a six-cylinder car he had noticed.
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He said "Mr Coatalen: this engine appears to have six cylinders!" Coatalen leant forward, examined the engine and replied "So it has!"!

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#17 Bill Sherwood

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 13:11

Originally posted by Wuzak


Yes, there is a clip on the net somewhere of the BRM V16.


I have one on my site -> http://www.billzilla.org/engread.htm

#18 JtP

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 16:10

Originally posted by dolomite


It's the BRM H-16. That particular one is an experimental version with four valves per cylinder, which AFAIK never raced.


That being the version that reduced the Ferrari engine designer of the time to fits of laughter at the thought of the 128 valve springs.

For odd racing engine designs. The BMW F2 Apfelbeck (I know I probably spelt it correctly) head engine, which did work and very well. The Honda NS (?)500 motorcycle engine of about 1980, which didn't work. It was limited to 4 cylinders, so they made the pistons oval to make space for the 8 valves per cylinder. The idea was to effectively give 2 pistons in the one bore, so you had a 8 cylinder engine that was officially a 4. Nobody could made the rings properly and the engine used to stop immediately the ignition was turned off as the internal friction was so high.

#19 swintex

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 20:24

Don't forget the 16 cylinder development of Porsche's 917 motor.

Could have been anywhere from 6 to 7.2 litres.

I bet that would have sounded different to the BRM :)

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#20 ViMaMo

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Posted 31 December 2004 - 23:36

A bit off the topic.

Lancia Delta S4 had both super charger and turbocharger. I wonder if its the only kind. But it was a dream engine.

#21 VAR1016

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 00:07

Originally posted by vivian
A bit off the topic.

Lancia Delta S4 had both super charger and turbocharger. I wonder if its the only kind. But it was a dream engine.


Yes, Forza Lancia!

I am not aware of any car that has used this apart from the S4, although I believe that Napier experimented with this on fearsomely complicated aero-engines.

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#22 ivanalesi

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 03:20

Thanks a lot for the BRM V16 links guys :up: Btw this engine cuts a lot!
I wish I was listening to this sound at this NY party but unfortunately it wasnt the case...
Anyway, I read in the official book for either the Enzo or 360 CS that a certain Italian composer(classic music) used to go down to his garage and fire up one of his classic Ferraris just for the inspiration!
I know that all CAN-AM engines were completely crazy in hp terms, the 3.5l V12 engine of Ferrari T312 had 5 valves per cylinder.

#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 11:14

Originally posted by VAR1016
..... am not aware of any car that has used this apart from the S4, although I believe that Napier experimented with this on fearsomely complicated aero-engines.


Including the wonderful diesel-fuelled Napier Nomad... do a search and find the 'oddball engines' or 'other oddball engines' thread that it's on...

The GMC V6 and V8 (etc) truck engines have both supercharging and turbocharging in some applications.

#24 Superliner II

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 13:02

Originally posted by vivian
What are the weird/strange/extreme/incredible engines have you seen meant for 2 wheeler or 4 wheeler closed circuit racing?

Like Honda's NR500. And their 1961 RC143 claimed 23 horsepower from an air-cooled 125cc four-stroke twin at 14,000 rpm !!! The 50cc RC113 made 10+ horsepower at 19,000 rpm.


And the Honda RC174 300cc DOHC 6 cylinder. 65bhp @ 17500rpm

Heres is a link. Scroll down a little.

Honda RC174 300cc 6 cyl

You will find a sound file for it here among others:

Sound of Honda

#25 McGuire

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 13:29

Got a shed full of old motorbikes you don't need anymore? Build your own F1 engine!


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#26 kikiturbo2

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 13:46

how about a lancia ECV triflux engine..... inline 4, intake and exhaust valves on both sides of the head... two exhaust manifolds, twin turbos..... :)

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 13:58

Must have been a takeoff of the Apfelbeck...

Then there was the Austin Healey 100S record engine that had two carbies on each side of the head.

#28 ViMaMo

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 17:07

Originally posted by Superliner II


And the Honda RC174 300cc DOHC 6 cylinder. 65bhp @ 17500rpm

Heres is a link. Scroll down a little.

Honda RC174 300cc 6 cyl

You will find a sound file for it here among others:

Sound of Honda


Thanks.

Here's a nice link to all the RCs from 50s

Link


Again going a bit off topic....

For Assen the bike is provided with a ten speed gearbox, but for the race Taveri prefers the eight speed version - in Finland he uses a nine speed cluster. The last race of the season is held at Suzuka, and here the RC112 makes its debut and also runs its last race.

10 speed gear box. :eek:

#29 desmo

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 05:26

Originally posted by McGuire
Got a shed full of old motorbikes you don't need anymore? Build your own F1 engine!


Posted Image


That's very cool McGuire. Can you tell us any more about it, I don't recognize the component engines?

When one walks into the Ducati Corse department from the factory floor there's an interesting air-cooled F1 V8 that looked to be made up of V twin parts on a cobby sand cast crankcase. I wanted to take some pics, but was told no photos inside the Corse shop. I should check the web to see if I can find any further mention of the Ducati V8 F1 engine, I hadn't heard of it before. Anyone know more about that one?

#30 indigoid

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 11:46

Originally posted by ZoRG
Ford RS200 I think was around 700hp in the rally version?


Saw one of these at the Sydney 2003 Motor Show. LOVELY piece of hardware. Pics here:

http://public.fotki....2003/page9.html

#31 McGuire

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 12:11

Originally posted by desmo


That's very cool McGuire. Can you tell us any more about it, I don't recognize the component engines?

When one walks into the Ducati Corse department from the factory floor there's an interesting air-cooled F1 V8 that looked to be made up of V twin parts on a cobby sand cast crankcase. I wanted to take some pics, but was told no photos inside the Corse shop. I should check the web to see if I can find any further mention of the Ducati V8 F1 engine, I hadn't heard of it before. Anyone know more about that one?


I don't know anything about it either. A friend sent me the photo...I believe the engine is in a British collection (Donington?). He had remembered an engine I was once contracted to work on, a flat six 1500cc racing engine built from six Yamaha 250cc motocross two-stroke singles. It worked very well too, but the funding wasn't there, whlie the sanctioning body also politely signalled its disaffection with the idea and it died.

My remark about motorbikes in regard to this engine was partly tongue in cheek. As the photo shows, the jugs are obviously purpose-made, and I can't recognize what the heads could be. But there have been a number of decent race car engines built on motorcycle components and practice...the Vanwall and Kuchen F1 engines to name two. Also the Sesco V8 used in midget racing here in the States, which was built up from two 1100cc Suzuki fours. That thing was a monster. I once saw Mel Kenyon carry the left front wheel all the way down the back stretch at Milwaukee, a one-mile oval.

#32 McGuire

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 12:18

For teeny but impressive motorcycle engines, how about the Suzuki RK67 50cc GP chamionship-winning motorcycle? 49.75cc twin, 17.5 hp at 17,200 rpm (14-speed transmission).

#33 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 12:31

Does the attempts of Ferrari to built a twocylinder 2.5 liter GP engine in the 50's count as well?

About the turbo&supercharged Lancia S4, it is reported that a similar design had been suggested for the Offy fourbanger at Indy when they had to give up their 4.2 l atmo version and go to a blown version in the mid 60's, was neer tried as far as I know.

Other logistic nightmare: Short before the war, Alfa Romeo allegedly built a V12 with triple stage roots blowers for each bank of cylinders, these being feeded by a single centrifugal blower! (in total 7 different blowers!)
I wonder if all the extra power supposedly a result of all these blowers was enough to drive them all, if they gained any extra power on the flywheel of the engine at all.

Henri Greuter

#34 VAR1016

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 12:59

And the mid-'sixties Honda 'bike engine: 125c.c., five cylinders, four valves per cylinder and 22,000 rpm :eek:

PdeRL

#35 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 16:04

Originally posted by VAR1016
And the mid-'sixties Honda 'bike engine: 125c.c., five cylinders, four valves per cylinder and 22,000 rpm :eek:

PdeRL


I think it was limited to 19k, it had the capability to hot 22k.

#36 desmo

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 20:34

A couple of oddities from the Ducati museum:
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A triple with six seperate exhaust pipes and barrel throttles.

Posted Image

Supermono engine cutaway showing the rather bizarre dummy cylinder setup.

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 21:18

Any diagrams of that 'dummy cylinder setup' des?

I can't see how that goes from this pic...

#38 desmo

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 23:03

Posted Image

I found this photo on the web of the same cutaway engine, it shows how the lever was grafted on to the end of the second rod to mimic the perfect primary balance of the V twin the Supermono was based on.

#39 Bill Sherwood

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 12:46

How about the Honda NSR500 oval piston engine?

Posted Image

I also quite like the Napier Deltic engines, very clever.

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#40 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 13:28

You've been breaking your neck to post that photo, haven't you Bill?

desmo... I still have no idea what the principles are in that engine. Is there a description on any site?

#41 Engineguy

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 14:38

Originally posted by Ray Bell
desmo... I still have no idea what the principles are in that engine. Is there a description on any site?


Ray,

Think of it as a V-twin motor with one of the cylinder heads removed. They have also replaced the second, unused piston with a lever arm that is long enough that the top of the unused connecting rod follows nearly the same up and down path it would if it were attached to a piston.

The idea is that, from a balancing standpoint, the engine thinks it is a V-twin, rather than a big single. I independently "invented" the idea many years ago, only to later find out, as so often happens, that someone else invented it first. In my case, it was to make large displacement inline 3 and inline 4 from V6 and V8 con rod layouts, as an alternative to balance shafts. I wouldn't be surprised if one were to dig deep enough they could find that someone did it 1900s to 1920s, when every idea you can imagine was tried in engines.

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 14:41

Yeah, you're right there... so many inventive minds at work in those formative years. Some actually got it right...

I see how it works now, thanks for the explanation, I had no idea what the purpose was before.

#43 ViMaMo

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 17:20

I have a engine concept in mind. I hope i don't sound stupid. :p

A flat engine. Two pistons share the same bore, so we have two crank cases. There is no cylinder head, the two pistons work against each other.



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Wouldn't this have better power to suck the fuel-air mixture?

#44 VAR1016

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 17:53

Originally posted by vivian
I have a engine concept in mind. I hope i don't sound stupid. :p

A flat engine. Two pistons share the same bore, so we have two crank cases. There is no cylinder head, the two pistons work against each other.



>>>inlet

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Wouldn't this have better power to suck the fuel-air mixture?


This is another one that has been around: the first exponent was arguably Gobron-Brillie which did use two pistons in a single bore with one crankshaft (1908). After this FIAT in 1926 with the supercharged two-stroke I mentioned earlier, then there were the Junkers aero-engines and also Lancia and Commer lorry engines.
The most extreme was perhaps the magnificent Napier Deltic engine used in boats and on the railways. This had three cylinders arranged in Delta format, three crankshafts and six pistons.

PdeRL

#45 desmo

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Posted 05 January 2005 - 19:31

What VAR1016 said, these designs- opposed piston is what they're called- haven't been altogether uncommon as 2-stroke CI engines over the years. I think that constitutes the second mention of the Napier Deltic in this thread (This being the 3rd). If you aren't familiar with it- and Napier's other iconic designs like the Nomad and Sabre- please do a web search and read up. It's really the only prerequisite I ask to participate here! ;)

#46 Macca

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Posted 06 January 2005 - 12:35

In the Mercedes W196 desmo, there is an L-shaped lever operated by the camshaft which lifts the valve from just below the top of the stem, and the inertia of the valve once it is moving completes the seal.

I'd love to hear the Climax flat-16 sometime; I wonder if it would sound like two Moto-Guzzi V8's - now there's another amazing engine.



Paul M

#47 ViMaMo

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Posted 06 January 2005 - 16:07

Hey thanks for that. VAR1016 and desmo

#48 soubriquet

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 02:12

Originally posted by desmo


That's very cool McGuire. Can you tell us any more about it, I don't recognize the component engines?


They look as if they may be Ariel Arrow/Leader barrels and heads. They were considered quite advanced for their time, and much better than anything by Villiers.

Cheers
S

#49 Mark Beckman

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Posted 09 January 2005 - 14:52

Originally posted by soubriquet


They look as if they may be Ariel Arrow/Leader barrels and heads. They were considered quite advanced for their time, and much better than anything by Villiers.

Cheers
S


Yes they are.

Overheating peices of crap they were.

#50 Mark Beckman

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Posted 09 January 2005 - 15:06

Originally posted by vivian
I have a engine concept in mind. I hope i don't sound stupid. :p

A flat engine. Two pistons share the same bore, so we have two crank cases. There is no cylinder head, the two pistons work against each other.



>>>inlet

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o---| | | |----o
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<<

Wouldn't this have better power to suck the fuel-air mixture?


Commer Knockers 1950's English trucks and made by the thousands.

Many Mechanics from those periods get nervous twitches if you mention them.

Also was a common design in WW2 and earlier Naval ship engines albeit slightly bigger and only 8000 hp (!) or so, Doxford used to make them (try Google).