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#651 Powersteer

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 05:37

Originally posted by Engineguy

Not sure why the hostility, but I hope things start going better for you soon.

In your unexplainable and unfortunate rage, you entirely missed the point... an excuse to disassemble interesting old engines to examine them.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

:cool:

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#652 McGuire

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:21

Originally posted by shaun979


Yup and it has slightly longer better supported cylinders than anything so far


But then at 221 lbs it should.

#653 Engineguy

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 16:45

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
What we have here....is a misunderstanding mate....there was not one ounce of hostility aimed at you from behind this keyboard...its all in the reading, I suppose...I apologise if you have been offended.

Sorry... I read your post in a sarcastic, Bob Wolleck-commenting-on-Mr-A.J. Foyt sort of way. :blush:

#654 Engineguy

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 18:01

Originally posted by McGuire
But then at 221 lbs it should.

Probably only 60 lb more than a wet steel sleeve aluminum LSx. Not a big concern to the 1000-2500 HP / 3400 lb crowd. Good excuse to get a carbon fiber hood, if you can find someone who has any cloth. Anyway, 500 lbs isn't bad for a 8½ L 2500 HP engine.

Saw a Dart CNC billet aluminum LSx block (with water jackets), but there's nothing on their website about it yet. No weight quoted, nor cost (probably 3x the GMPP iron).

Posted Image

click for really big close-up...
http://www.autopress...billetblock.jpg

Press release:
TROY, Mich. – Racers and engine builders can get virtually anything they want in an LS1-style block with Dart`s new billet aluminum block. Machined on precision CNC equipment from a solid billet of 6061 aluminum, the Dart LS1 block offers virtually unlimited choices in deck height, cylinder bore centerline, bore diameter, and lifter/cam configurations.

The Dart LS1-style billet block is available with or without water jackets. After machining, the block is heat treated to 130 Brinnell hardness for strength and reliability.

``The deep-skirt design of the LS1 block lends itself very well to a billet version,`` explained Dart founder and president Richard Maskin. ``We were able to have more water volume in the billet block than a production block, while having thicker bores and better materials.

``Compared to an aluminum casting, the billet block has much greater capacity to withstand high stress levels without failure,`` Maskin noted. ``This material gives the customer the strength of 7075 aluminum with elongation that`s five times greater than cast aluminum.``

The Dart billet block can be ordered with additional head bolts, custom motor mount bosses, and optional camshaft diameters.

For more information, contact Dart Machinery, 353 Oliver Dr., Troy, MI 48084, phone 248-362-1188. Product information is also available at www.dartheads.com.


#655 Bob Riebe

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 21:47

I would say most likely one hundred pounds, plus or minus a few, as a Brodix raised cam Alloy big block weighs 128 lbs.

The only only weight I remember for a comp. alloy LS block is 110 lbs from an article a few years back.

Bob

#656 onelung

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:40

In line with the original topic (my word, everything except Global Warming seems to have been covered here...!) I give you the ...Trossi-Monaco: da-daaaahhhh! Somewhat surprising that it hasn't been seen before.
Look for an existing Nostalgia Forum thread dealing with this -er - unusual beast. (Merge, perhaps?)
[IMG]http://img80.imagesh...naco2jw5.th.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img209.images...naco1dj9.th.jpg[/IMG]
4 litre 16 cylinder radial, 8 spark plugs, 2 stroke.

#657 shaun979

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 09:19

Originally posted by Engineguy

Saw a Dart CNC billet aluminum LSx block (with water jackets), but there's nothing on their website about it yet. No weight quoted, nor cost (probably 3x the GMPP iron).

Posted Image


As I understand it, this block is 3x the price of World's Warhawk, and only 8 in total have been sold since the block debuted 3-4 years ago. It has however, been picked by Pratt & Miller to power their C6R-replica road car, in 500ci form.

#658 McGuire

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 16:58

Originally posted by onelung
In line with the original topic (my word, everything except Global Warming seems to have been covered here...!) I give you the ...Trossi-Monaco: da-daaaahhhh! Somewhat surprising that it hasn't been seen before.
Look for an existing Nostalgia Forum thread dealing with this -er - unusual beast. (Merge, perhaps?)
[IMG]http://img80.imagesh...naco2jw5.th.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img209.images...naco1dj9.th.jpg[/IMG]
4 litre 16 cylinder radial, 8 spark plugs, 2 stroke.

Thanks for the contribution, good one.

#659 onelung

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 05:35

Here we go again ... someone else can try to ID the engine (Salmson?), but I believe it's in a Salmson.
Too much of a coincidence? UK based, I think.
Posted Image
...and it's too late to save Monthlery ... (weeps).

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#660 McGuire

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 14:50

Wow is that cool. Phantom is going to flip over it.

That is a Salmson AD9 radial... known as the "watch charm engine" by aviators of the time ('30s-ish) for being so petite and well-made. They made like 40 to 60 hp but ran like swiss clocks. Salmsons used the Canton-Unne system instead of a master/slave rod arrangement.

#661 phantom II

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 19:00

Bit before my time. I assume the engine is turned around with the prop drive going to the cars gearbox. Do you have a picture of the Canton-Unne system? I'm not fond of round engines or any piston engine for that matter. Don't mean to hurt your feelings. OK, so I like LSxs a little bit. I cant believe I still have to use a dipstick as did Karl Benz. Still waiting for an ID on that V12 abomination.

Originally posted by McGuire
Wow is that cool. Phantom is going to flip over it.

That is a Salmson AD9 radial... known as the "watch charm engine" by aviators of the time ('30s-ish) for being so petite and well-made. They made like 40 to 60 hp but ran like swiss clocks. Salmsons used the Canton-Unne system instead of a master/slave rod arrangement.



#662 onelung

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 22:15

This might clarify the Canton-Unne system, possibly. I'd prefer to see it in the metal, though.

http://www.enginehis...red_engines.htm

French: that explains a lot, too.

#663 onelung

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 22:46

And to go from the round to the (extremely) vertical, we have Peugeot's interpretation of the voiturette racing rules for 1910. Apologies for the picture quality.
Posted Image
16 degree V twin, 80 x280,2.8 litre, 3 valves/cylinder, inlet valve 62mm diameter.

#664 WatkinsGlen68

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:37

Originally posted by desmo
Not racing, and only mildly psychotic but here's an interesting concept from BMW, a compound engine using exhaust heat to power a steam expansion stage.

http://www.autoblog....34000500071716/

Pretty obvious concept really once you've looked at IC engine thermodynamic efficiencies and EX temps, but I cannot recall having seen it done before. I haven't found a good description of the hardware yet, I couldn't find anything on BMW's site.


Just the other day I was told that in a large diesel (presumably turboed) 33% of of the energy was captured as torque, 30% was wasted in the exhaust, 30% came out in the coolant, and 7% was lost as convective/radiant heat. If that's correct, heat in the coolant and exhaust is potentially as huge source of power ... and efficiency.

A steam turbine connected to the crank shaft would be simple - if you don't need a governor there will be just one moving part. Of course, the casing might be very heavy if modern materials aren't utilized.

The waste heat boiler could be a relatively simple once-through tubular heat exchanger (like a Clayton Steam Generator but without the furnace or fuel burning equipment).

Other components of the system would be a high pressure liquid pump and a condenser.

I suspect that water (steam) may not be the fluid of choice. After leaving the turbine, all of the vapor will need to be condensed by releasing its latent heat to the atmosphere via a radiator. The lower the temperature of the vapor, the bigger the radiator would need to be. Selection of an alternate fluid would enable one to alter the temperature in the radiator.

So, here's my segue. Bill Lear (Lear Jet) worked on a steam drive trane for motor vehicles. It was called the Leat Vapordyne. Part of the program was a car to run the Indy 500 (either 68 or 69). I've got a one page flier on the Indy racer. I'm under the impresssion that Lear had selected Freon as the working fluid. Can anyone provide more details?

#665 CFD Dude

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:05

Whoa, I googled it and ended up back here: http://forums.autosp...p?postid=504381

Google came up with a few other results too:

There's also some information here: http://www.freerepub...s/1273724/posts search for Lear and there's some talk of the engine, some of it's speculation, but some facts as well. It states in there that the Vapordyne engines used Freon instead of water in a closed loop circuit - not sure if that was for the Indy car though. You'll have to sift through the thread, there's a lot of other topics being discussed in there.

The restored race car was sold off last year at auction: http://www.kruseinte...=LEAR&RESULTS=1 Doesn't sound like it was running.

#666 J. Edlund

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 00:30

Originally posted by WatkinsGlen68


Just the other day I was told that in a large diesel (presumably turboed) 33% of of the energy was captured as torque, 30% was wasted in the exhaust, 30% came out in the coolant, and 7% was lost as convective/radiant heat. If that's correct, heat in the coolant and exhaust is potentially as huge source of power ... and efficiency.

A steam turbine connected to the crank shaft would be simple - if you don't need a governor there will be just one moving part. Of course, the casing might be very heavy if modern materials aren't utilized.

The waste heat boiler could be a relatively simple once-through tubular heat exchanger (like a Clayton Steam Generator but without the furnace or fuel burning equipment).

Other components of the system would be a high pressure liquid pump and a condenser.

I suspect that water (steam) may not be the fluid of choice. After leaving the turbine, all of the vapor will need to be condensed by releasing its latent heat to the atmosphere via a radiator. The lower the temperature of the vapor, the bigger the radiator would need to be. Selection of an alternate fluid would enable one to alter the temperature in the radiator.

So, here's my segue. Bill Lear (Lear Jet) worked on a steam drive trane for motor vehicles. It was called the Leat Vapordyne. Part of the program was a car to run the Indy 500 (either 68 or 69). I've got a one page flier on the Indy racer. I'm under the impresssion that Lear had selected Freon as the working fluid. Can anyone provide more details?


A large turbodiesel put up to 45% of the energy added to the the crankshaft (given current emission limits). Even at less than ideal loads/speeds that figure can exceed 30%. Most waste heat finds its way out of the engine through the exhaust system. A smaller amount, ca. 15% finds its way through the coolant system while about 10% is lost to surrounding air. The problem with using heat energy from the cooling syste, in addition to the smaller amount of heat that is availible is its low temperature. With a temperature difference of about 90 degC (between coolant and surrounding air) we can't use more than 25% of the availible energy. The exhaust gas reaching temperatures higher than 500 degC at full load on a diesel is a much better option. Using superheated steam with the coolant as the cold source there is at least some possebilities (and a temperature difference up to 400 degC or more).

#667 Greg Locock

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:28

Mann make a ship engine that is 54% efficient on shaft power, ie excluding any heat recovery actions.

Mann S80ME-C Mk7 two-stroke marine engine

So we've got a long way to go.

One suggestion has been to use Peltier devices to recover heat from the exhaust pipe. Economically impractical for a production car, maybe not so stupid for a race car. Pull enough heat out of the exhaust and you can retune the pipe, even.

#668 J. Edlund

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 18:23

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Mann make a ship engine that is 54% efficient on shaft power, ie excluding any heat recovery actions.

Mann S80ME-C Mk7 two-stroke marine engine

So we've got a long way to go.

One suggestion has been to use Peltier devices to recover heat from the exhaust pipe. Economically impractical for a production car, maybe not so stupid for a race car. Pull enough heat out of the exhaust and you can retune the pipe, even.


It's not impossible for a commercial diesel engine lika a truck engine to reach efficiencies above 45%, the trouble is the emission laws. To reduce NOx formation combustion temperatures must be kept down, in other words massive amount of EGR, low alpha angles and compression ratios are needed.

#669 Wuzak

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 23:01

Looks like Caterpillar are aiming for 50% efficiency

http://www1.eere.ene...deer_easley.pdf

#670 mariner

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 19:40

I know this is outside racing engines but it IS thermodynamics ( and topical).

If a truck diesel can look at getting to 50% and a big ship diesel is at 54% then I would guess that a rail locomotive engine can get to 50% . I think that disel efficiency goes up naturally as revs fall due to longer stroke and more time extracting more useful energy.

Given rail engines drive a generator then electric motors what is the overall thermal efficiency versus a coal/gas power station plus transmission system into an electric locomotive?. I have heard of transmission losses of about 10% in electricity grids so putting renewable or nuclear aside that suggests that a rail diesel is competitive unless the power station is above 60%.

It that true?

#671 Wuzak

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 22:29

It depends on what the waste heat is used for.

I think a coal fired steam turbine power station in isolation is roughly 40-45% efficient.

General Electric makes a combined gas/steam turbine system that is claimed to be 60% efficient.

Some of Rolls Royce's gas turbines are 40%+ efficient in isolation, but they also have combined cycle systems. With the excess heat used for process steam or heating RR claim around 90% efficiency.

#672 275 GTB-4

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 07:34

CUMMINS at Goodwood FoS - "Worlds Largest most Powerful" (in its class I suppose)

Posted Image

Posted Image

#673 cheapracer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:11

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
CUMMINS at Goodwood FoS - "Worlds Largest most Powerful" (in its class I suppose)

Posted Image


WOW, quadruple underhead fuel filters, it must be fast!

#674 Bill Sherwood

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 09:52

Originally posted by cheapracer


WOW, quadruple underhead fuel filters, it must be clean!



Fixed. :)

#675 Greg Locock

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 10:28

I think you have t be very careful when you look at claimed efficinecies for systems that include thermal outputs. After all, a WW1 steam boiler was better than 88% efficient on that basis.

#676 cheapracer

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 13:54

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood



Yep, the stroke really is that easy to measure.
(though make sure to do all the cylinders, to ensure they all have the same stroke.;) )

I've been wondering about how to measure bore without lifting the head. Is there perhaps an ultrasonic or some other device that could do it?


Well it is if the spark plug hole allows you get a stick of some description in there.

While not an actual measuring tool, I had a real nifty borescope to look inside cylinders that should be in every racers toolbox, brilliant for spotting impending valve or headgasket problems (magnified 360degree view, well lit up, dear as poison too) - it also wasn't too hard to judge if internals were changed or not.

#677 275 GTB-4

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 00:52

Vauxhall...not a really evocative name when it comes to racing discussions you might say?? (no offence to Vaux people)...

I stood with my mouth open catching flies for several minutes admiring this lot at Brooklands :up:

(a supercharger per every two banks of cylinders? one for each pot? a progressive, four stage set-up? sheesh!)

Posted Image

#678 Magoo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 16:49

Remember this golden oldie?

To me this was one of the greatest message threads in the history of the Internet, and actually, part of the inspiration for starting a website of my own -- so people can come along and wallow in material of this nature unto perpetuity if they so choose.

So in the spirit of this long gone but not forgotten thread (not by me anyway) here's a story from MCG about yet another hopeless oddball engine. Enjoy, or something.

Motor City Garage - Cadillac's phantom V12





#679 desmo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 19:03

Thanks for saving this from the archives McG. But, damn I lost a good two hours going back through it. Almost lost, I did update the image links from my Ducati museum pics so they now work again.

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#680 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:37

Vauxhall...not a really evocative name when it comes to racing discussions you might say?? (no offence to Vaux people)...

I stood with my mouth open catching flies for several minutes admiring this lot at Brooklands :up:

(a supercharger per every two banks of cylinders? one for each pot? a progressive, four stage set-up? sheesh!)

Posted Image

Complete with external lubrication or rust prevention. Ah yes British enginering!

#681 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:45

Remember this golden oldie?

To me this was one of the greatest message threads in the history of the Internet, and actually, part of the inspiration for starting a website of my own -- so people can come along and wallow in material of this nature unto perpetuity if they so choose.

So in the spirit of this long gone but not forgotten thread (not by me anyway) here's a story from MCG about yet another hopeless oddball engine. Enjoy, or something.

Motor City Garage - Cadillac's phantom V12

That Caddy engine seems to have a bit of Family 4 influence in the head and cam box design. Which probably is not a good thing!

#682 Magoo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 20:31

Here's another engine featured briefly years ago in this thread, the one-of-one Leo Goossen/Fred Offenhauser/Joe Lencki DOHC six. Like an Offy, but it's a six.

Now that I have the venue to give it a little deeper treatment, I an pleased to circle back and visit it again:

LINK The Phantom Offy six-banger | Mac's Motor City Garage

teaser pic
Posted Image




#683 Magoo

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 21:15

This was beyond the scope of the article -- it's an engine story -- but the frame rail visible in the photo above bears remarking.


In these days (late 30s) tools were rather limited. Also, many builders distrusted welding and hated rivets. So check out how that frame rail is fabricated. The channel section is relatively light steel sheet (like 14 or 16 gauge) formed over a hardwood die. (Big piece of oak cut on a bandsaw into the shape of a frame rail, with front and rear kickups, etc.) Then the formed channel was closed out with flat sheet using a zillion 10-32 machine screws and nuts. Yes, it's weird, but lighter and stronger than trying to adapt heavy stamped frame rails from a production car, the usual alternative.

The old timers had a saying that welding "locks in the stresses," which from the perspective of their limited tools and knowledge was not entirely incorrect. It amazes me what they were able to accomplish back in the day with the little they had.

#684 Tony Matthews

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 22:48

I noticed those little bolts and assumed it was fixing for a lower body panel - now I see that is the chassis rail. Neat. Would there have been doublers and/or internal webs at some points, like engine and gearbox mounts?

#685 packapoo

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:39

Wonderful stuff there Mcg/Mag/whoever.

#686 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:22

I noticed those little bolts and assumed it was fixing for a lower body panel - now I see that is the chassis rail. Neat. Would there have been doublers and/or internal webs at some points, like engine and gearbox mounts?


That would make it a kind of a honeycomb or sandwich construction. And that Tony would be...........

Edited by MatsNorway, 23 August 2012 - 07:22.


#687 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:25

stiff

#688 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:33

haha

I was hoping for very neat or something.

#689 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:33

OK, very neat and stiff. :)

#690 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:53

Here's another engine featured briefly years ago in this thread, the one-of-one Leo Goossen/Fred Offenhauser/Joe Lencki DOHC six. Like an Offy, but it's a six.

Now that I have the venue to give it a little deeper treatment, I an pleased to circle back and visit it again:

LINK The Phantom Offy six-banger | Mac's Motor City Garage

teaser pic
Posted Image

I checked out the pics, very unusual as the engine has the intake on both sides if the engine at various times. 2x 2 barrel carbs as it is now yet other pics have 6 injectors on the other side of the engine. Some of the pics show a 4 cyl Offy too.
All the Offys I have seen have had the exhaust on the right and intake on the left

#691 Magoo

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:28

I noticed those little bolts and assumed it was fixing for a lower body panel - now I see that is the chassis rail. Neat. Would there have been doublers and/or internal webs at some points, like engine and gearbox mounts?


Exactly, you got it. The construction is a lot like a metal formula car tub, except in the form of two skinny longerons or rails instead of a single large cylinder. One auction catalogue recently went so far as to call this "monocoque-style" construction, which is not correct but you can get what they were trying to say.


#692 Magoo

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 19:29

I checked out the pics, very unusual as the engine has the intake on both sides if the engine at various times. 2x 2 barrel carbs as it is now yet other pics have 6 injectors on the other side of the engine. Some of the pics show a 4 cyl Offy too.
All the Offys I have seen have had the exhaust on the right and intake on the left


Wow, good eye, you don't miss a thing.

On the classic Offy (and its sibling the Lencki) the head is integral with the cylinder block, is more or less perfectly symmetrical, and can be bolted onto the crankcase in either direction: "frontward" or "backward." Meanwhile, the timing case is a separate deal and will bolt onto either end of the block/head. All that remains is to remove and swap two galley plugs to the opposite end of the block. Thus the engine can be easily assembled with the intake ports on the left/exhaust on the right or vice versa. The engine doesn't really care.

This came in especially handy during the roadster era when there were multiple packaging theories for getting weight low and to the left. For example, on the standard Watson roadster layout the engine was vertical with the engine and driveline offset to the left and the driver offset to the right relative to the vehicle's longitudinal CL. So the engine was assembled with the exhaust on the left so the header pipe could pass high on the left side of the car well clear of the driver.
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On the Kurtis (and others) the engine might be assembled either way according to the specific configuration. On the laydown cars (engine laid over horizontally, Salih, Kurtis 500H, others) the intake was usually (but not always) on the top or left. At the end of the line with the mid-engine turbo Offy, the exhaust was generally on the left.

Kurtis 500G
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Kurtis 500H
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By the way, if you like studying these cars, there are three big photo galleries of them at the link below. The photos above came from these features.


Millers at Milwaukee features | Mac's Motor City Garage




#693 bigleagueslider

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:42

magoo-

Those old Indy roadsters sure were beautiful!

slider

#694 packapoo

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 04:20

magoo-

Those old Indy roadsters sure were beautiful!

slider

Actually, I've never taken a helluva lot a notice before, but he's right. :up:
Off to Magoo's archive.

#695 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:41

OK, very neat and stiff. :)

Tony Matthews--the man who likes his frame rails the way he likes his drinks.

#696 Tony Matthews

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 14:59

Or.. one in each hand.

#697 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:26

Or.. one in each hand.

The complete attention of a leprechaun? I got lost somewhere.

#698 Bob Riebe

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 04:33

These are interesting articles:
http://goodwincompet...0raceengine.htm

http://www.allstarengine.com

http://www.dragzine....e-space-engines

Edited by Bob Riebe, 07 September 2012 - 05:29.


#699 Magoo

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 16:21

Here's the latest from Tony at Motor City Garage: cutaway painting of the Auburn 851 Supercharged Boattail Speedster.

Pretty far afield from his usual fare, hmm. Beautiful stuff, check it out. Love the Columbia two-speed axle.

Tony Matthews Cutaway: Auburn 851 | Mac's Motor City Garage



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#700 Magoo

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 14:30

Okay, here's a whole new batch of engine porn. Here's some stuff from GM's private engine stash at the GM Heritage Center in Sterling Heights, MI. (A few miles from the GM Tech Center in Warran.)


Inside GM's private engine collection | Mac's Motor City Garage

A few sample photos...


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