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#151 McGuire

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 13:23

Originally posted by soubriquet


Posted Image

A 30 cylinder Packard tank engine.


Perhaps the museum has mislabeled this engine: that is a 30-cylinder Dodge/Chrysler engine as used in some varieties of the misbegotten Sherman tank. This deal is actually five six-cylinder sidevalve Dodge passenger car engines lashed together in star fashion and geared to an output shaft. The Sherman used a number of curious powertrain combinations, including GMC 6-71 two-stroke diesels used in pairs.

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#152 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 15:26

Is that you? Ive got the same hairstyle.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McGuire
[B]Here is a sweet little engine, the Radical V8

#153 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 15:38

Between the banks of that DB engine, lay a huge 20mm cannon. I was on a 4 hour train trip between Gossler in west Germany and Berlin, before Reagan tore down that wall. I chatted to a Luftwaffe pilot the whole way. He flew 109 Es and Ffs. He said that the first time he fired the cannon, he thought that he had been shot down. The plane actually slows down. His wife cautioned him that I might be from the FBI. He wanted to know about flying F4s and I wanted to know about flying 109s.
The 109 that they restored at Duxford crashed a few years ago. The last one to fly powered by the DB V12.
I learned to fly gliders by taking lessons from a FW 190 pilot. What a pleasure.

Originally posted by McGuire
Posted Image

"Daimler Benz 603a inverted V12. Were these sleeve valved?"


No, four poppet valves per cylinder...the DB 60x series is vaguely like a Merlin in general configuration but inverted. The sleeves are screw-in cylinder liners (like a Hisso or Lampredi Ferrari). The odd serrated rings are threaded retainers that draw down and seal the crank end of the liners.



#154 McGuire

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:12

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Is that you? Ive got the same hairstyle.


No, but that is my hairstyle as well. Low maintenance, minimal aerodynamic drag.

#155 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:26

It's just that we hav more face.

Originally posted by McGuire


No, but that is my hairstyle as well. Low maintenance, minimal aerodynamic drag.



#156 McGuire

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:26

Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER
Between the banks of that DB engine, lay a huge 20mm cannon. I was on a 4 hour train trip between Gossler in west Germany and Berlin, before Reagan tore down that wall. I chatted to a Luftwaffe pilot the whole way. He flew 109 Es and Ffs. He said that the first time he fired the cannon, he thought that he had been shot down. The plane actually slows down. His wife cautioned him that I might be from the FBI. He wanted to know about flying F4s and I wanted to know about flying 109s.
The 109 that they restored at Duxford crashed a few years ago. The last one to fly powered by the DB V12.
I learned to fly gliders by taking lessons from a FW 190 pilot. What a pleasure.


Great engine...especially when you consider most units never had any better than 87 octane fuel. Hence the use of the GM-1 nitrous oxide system.

#157 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:29

It's just that we hav more face than others.

Originally posted by McGuire


No, but that is my hairstyle as well. Low maintenance, minimal aerodynamic drag.



#158 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:39

Thanks S,

The battle of Brittain is about to begin. Upon this battle, the survival of our Christian civilization depends.
Never before in History, has so much being owed to so few.


Originally posted by soubriquet
Due overwhelming public support (thanks Brian), here goes.


Lest anyone forget that you over there were once over here (my mother certainly hasn't)

Me mam saw plenty of this from her back garden in Kent

Posted Image

Cheers
S



#159 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 16:45

The big hole in the center of the propeller hub is the 20mm cannon.

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#160 WPT

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 18:30

In the above post the yellow nosed plane is a FW-190D9. The D9 used an upside down V-12 Junkers Jumo (sp) 213E (I believe) with three valves per cylinder. Most 190's used a BMW (801) twin row 14 cylinder radial, thus the reason the D9 was called the long nose 190 by allied pilots. The D9 appeared late in the war, a good thing as it was one great performing fighter. WPT

#161 WPT

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 18:32

Disregard my above post. That is a BF-109. I need new eyes. WPT

#162 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 20:35

The 109 has a huge spinner or nose cone, which is missing in this picture, which makes identification difficult.
The first 109 fitted with a liquid cooled V12, was built in 1941 at the bequest of the Reichsluftministerium who were not convinced that modern fighters should have radial engines.
It was a DB 603 inverted V12, but production planes (190Ds) got the Juno engines. They were operational in late 1943 with the 109d-9. The tail was moved back even further.The 190d-12 could fly at 37 000ft at 453 mph, but was no match for the P51s and was redesignated as the Ta 152A as a result. It had a 30mm cannon between the V.
By that time, the round engine version could fly circles around it also.
The 'round' engined 190s ultimately became the best fighter of the war after years of development. They first flew in 1938 with a BMW 139 14cylinder engine. They eventually got the BMW 801 radial built under license from Pratt & Whitney (Yep, there were a number of American and English companies doing business with the Nazis throughout the war. A Dupont exec. said that wars are transient and we are in business for keeps.). The BMW 801 was 200 lbs heavier and the landing gear had to be modified to relocate it fore of the CG. It was widened and made longer to accommodate the huge prop.The fuselage was lengthened also for the appropriate couple.. A German pilot defected to England in one in 1942 and were amazed at the advanced wing. It was similar to the high loaded wing design of the P51.



Disregard my above post. That is a BF-109. I need new eyes. WPT [/QUOTE]

#163 VAR1016

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 21:12

The very last FW-190s were fitted with a development of the Daimler-Benz inverted V-12.

With about 1900 BHP, top speed was in the region of 485mph.

These figures certainly bear out the FW's astonishing aerodynamic efficiency.

The Hawker Fury, admittedly a bulkier item, could manage about 470 mph when fitted with a special Napier Sabre engine which produced about 3,300HP.

PdeRL

#164 soubriquet

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 01:11

Originally posted by McGuire


Perhaps the museum has mislabeled this engine: that is a 30-cylinder Dodge/Chrysler engine as used in some varieties of the misbegotten Sherman tank. This deal is actually five six-cylinder sidevalve Dodge passenger car engines lashed together in star fashion and geared to an output shaft. The Sherman used a number of curious powertrain combinations, including GMC 6-71 two-stroke diesels used in pairs.


It is highly likely that it is my memory error, having just come from the US hall, where they had the Packard Merlin.

McGuire's description is correct. It makes me grind my teeth to think of the results of a partial seizure for one of the blocks. With four other motors driving the crank, you'd have plenty of time to circulate the shrapnel.

Cheers
S

#165 Engineguy

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 12:57

The Drake Engineering water cooled knuckle engines

Posted Image front view

Posted Image "in/out gearbox" made from Model A parts

Posted Image installed in midget

In the 1930s Drake Engineering began producing special Harley-Davidson based motors for racing that were used in quarter-mile midget cars. The cases were early HD 61 OHV, usually beefed with extra welding and fitted with steel strocker flywheels. The trans was an in-or-out gearbox [3] - no clutch - made from Ford "A" parts that bolted to the engine sprocket boss. Since the cases were spun around and mounted in the chassis crosswise, this was the back of the engine.

In place of the stock knuck top end, one piece water jacketed cylinders and heads with mounts for dual 1 1/4" carbs [cast in Iron by Drake] accepted standrad HD valve gear. With a 4 5/8" stroke and a monster 3 1/2" bore, displacement worked out to 89 cubes with a 96-inch version appearing later.

Most of the internals started out as standard HD, but the power that the engine produced made stronger replacements necessary. Years before the factory did it, the cases were bored out for Timken type bearings, and mainshaft sizes grew to 1 1/2" and eventually 2". Early stock rods bnt like pretzels and racers used Cartwright forgings or 4130billet units made by Barker. Cams were either Lightning Knuckle or Schaeller regrinds. The standard generator was replaced with an Edison-Splitdorf mag and later, with Bosh or Wico magnetosrunning in a special front drive cam cover by Elder.

Since the powerplant was just for racing, a number of Los Angeles area shops made special conversions for themselves. Pordugiel and Smiley produced some with steel crankcases [whitled out of a solid billet!] and one of the Hoak brothers' motors had alloy valve covers like later Panheads!

The engines were used in midgt car racers in the late 1930s and in the post WWII era. Their low speed torque made them competitive with the Offy's [Four cylinder engines Offenhauser engines also used in midgets] on short or slippery tracks. However, on longer circuits, they would overheat and lose power. Because the cooling system had no water pump and depend on thermal currents for circulation hrough a font mounted mounted radiator. Another major problem was vibration. The "shakers" or "poppers, as they were called, would work a car to death, splitting float bowls and slowly shedding parts all over the track unless revswere limited to about 4000. A few Drake engines were use by bike drag racers in the 1950s, but most of the 400-odd produced have probably gone to the scrap yard now. The production of the engine parts passed out of Drake through several owners, ending up in 1952 with Edgar Elder, who still has the orginal patterns.

Taken from an article in Earlyriders, Published by Easyriders in the late 70's or early 80's

#166 BRIAN GLOVER

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 13:50

Make that a FW 190 and not 109. I hate it when that happens.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BRIAN GLOVER

The first 109 fitted with a liquid cooled V12, was built in 1941 at the bequest of the Reichsluftministerium who were not convinced that modern fighters should have radial engines.
It was a DB 603 inverted V12, but production planes (190Ds) got the Juno engines.

#167 McGuire

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 16:52

Originally posted by Engineguy
The Drake Engineering water cooled knuckle engines


Excellent post, thank you!

#168 McGuire

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 17:26

The orginal midget era of the 1930's spawned many unusual engines (before the Offy midget made them all obsolete). One popular early midget adaptation was the Elto outboard...60 CID rotary valve two stroke. These engines were legendary for being LOUD.


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#169 McGuire

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 17:32

In sprint car racing in the '30s and '40s, this engine was known as "the poor man's Offy." This is a DO Cragar, very similar to an Offy but based on Model A Ford architecture. (There is a Miller-Goosen-Offenhauser connection in its backround.) Isn't it beautiful?

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#170 McGuire

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 17:39

This rather popular sprint car engine of the 1920's and 1930's was commonly known as a "Hisso"...essentially, a WWI-era Hispano-Suiza V8 aircraft engine, sawn in half...

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#171 desmo

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 17:55

Thanks, Engineguy for that post on the Drake-Knucklehead sprint engine. I'd never heard of that one. I've enjoyed watching dirt trackers powered by UJM fours, and I knew about F3 cars powered by Norton Manx engines and the like. More bike/car crossover, cool.

#172 ciaoduc1

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 07:21

How about the 690hp 4 rotor Le Man engine?
http://home.earthlin...yeng/4rotor.jpg
http://home.earthlin...eng/4rotor2.jpg

Anybody know the max number of rotors you can stack together? Obviously engine length becomes a problem, but theoretically speaking...

#173 AS110

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 08:44

In New Zealand in the 70s Bill Buckely (he made an atempt at 500GP racing a few years ago with the BSL,the the MotoGP rules finished that) and others made a 2 stroke V8 using 4 RD350 cases with TZ750 top ends for a speedway midget,I remember it racing,it sounded like a wasp nest loose on the track,it was competitive,but can't remember a lot about it's racing history.A few years ago the motor was on display at a local bike shop with photos and story,I guess it is still around somewhere.When the VW based engine took over in midgets there were half engines used in TQs,I remember one just using one bank,kinda obvious,but another was a flat twin,a rather more complicated way to make half a VW,this one is still around at vintage speedway meetings.

#174 Wuzak

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 12:31

Originally posted by ciaoduc1
How about the 690hp 4 rotor Le Man engine?
http://home.earthlin...yeng/4rotor.jpg
http://home.earthlin...eng/4rotor2.jpg

Anybody know the max number of rotors you can stack together? Obviously engine length becomes a problem, but theoretically speaking...


I think assembly becomes a difficulty too.

#175 Bob Riebe

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 17:50

Originally posted by AS110
In New Zealand in the 70s Bill Buckely (he made an atempt at 500GP racing a few years ago with the BSL,the the MotoGP rules finished that) and others made a 2 stroke V8 using 4 RD350 cases with TZ750 top ends for a speedway midget,I remember it racing,it sounded like a wasp nest loose on the track,it was competitive,but can't remember a lot about it's racing history.A few years ago the motor was on display at a local bike shop with photos and story,I guess it is still around somewhere.When the VW based engine took over in midgets there were half engines used in TQs,I remember one just using one bank,kinda obvious,but another was a flat twin,a rather more complicated way to make half a VW,this one is still around at vintage speedway meetings.


Some in the US used the V-8 engine in the OMC boat-racing motor for more liberal midget classes.
Others made V-8s using 4 cylinder motorcycle heads, and some also used the Buick/Rover and the Daimler V-8s.

Bob

#176 McGuire

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Posted 11 March 2005 - 18:49

The outboard engines used in midget racing are fascinating....study them for very long and then you get hooked on outboard engines and history, another whole area for exploration. Some very intriguing engines...and the whole thing comes full circle again. Both the Crosley and Coventry Climax FW eventually ended up adapted as outboard engines.

#177 Engineguy

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 01:13

I saw one of these Moser DOHC SBC engines in a (USAC? 255 cubic inch for OHC?) sprint car at Winchester (where the men are seperated from the boys) in the early '70s after seeing it in Hot Rod. I was thrilled to see one in person (I think only six sets of heads were made). While it's a bit dated from a current DOHC design thinking standpoint, I still think it is a clever tight package. If I ever "win the lottery" I think I'll have to chase down a set for my AMBR candidate. :up:
Posted Image Posted Image
Richard Moser trivia: Designed the camshafts for the 426 Street Hemi while at Chrysler, designed Turbine Can Am car that was to share engines from the Shelby Indy Turbines (Indy in May, CanAm June and beyond), developed steam car for Bill Lear (or proved it can't be done, as he puts it), developed SBC DOHC conversion with Harvey Crane Jr., developed Torq 14L 900HP and 1050HP V12 marine engine (BBC derivative?)... Second career: musician... CD "Four Men, 32 Angels and a Princess"... Third career, after getting a bovine (that's a cow for you city folk) heart valve put in his ticker: writer... "The Examined Universe" in which he explains everything (available at Amazon.com).

#178 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 02:28

There was also a twin-cam (per bank, of course) 4-valve Chev engine built in Australia by Peter Fowler of Shepparton, Victoria. It was used very successfully by Bryan Thomson in sports sedan racing.

Another similar project was the Globe Products (Adelaide) twin-cam conversion for the small block Ford V8, I think on a 289. It raced with some effectiveness in the Elfin 400 driven by Noel Hurd.

#179 desmo

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 03:31

I swear I remember pawing through that issue of Hot Rod at a newsstand somewhere as a kid!

The included valve angle on the Moser head looks pretty modern giving a nice compact looking combustion chamber. That's a pretty nasty bend in the intake port though by modern standards.

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#180 Engineguy

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 09:34

Originally posted by desmo
I swear I remember pawing through that issue of Hot Rod at a newsstand somewhere as a kid!

I just picked up the issue on E-bay. I spent so much time reading and re-reading car magazines as a kid I have almost a photographic memory of interesting articles like the Moser piece. I started my subscription to Hot Rod in 1962 when I was 6 years old, Car Craft a few years later, Road & Track, Car & Driver, and AutoWeek late '60s. By 1988 I had a spare bedroom full of specially built bookcases of floor-to-ceiling cubby-holes that held 12 issues each. Then I sold my my house and moved about 70 miles for a career change... under great pressure to get everything out of the sold house, and facing a couple extra trips with a van just to haul the magazines and bookcases... I had a brain malfunction and put it all out for the trashman. I get sick thinking about it now :cry: ; lots of interesting stuff in those. Now I grab a couple from Ebay every once in a while when something I want shows up.

The included valve angle on the Moser head looks pretty modern giving a nice compact looking combustion chamber. That's a pretty nasty bend in the intake port though by modern standards.

And yet similar in shape to the CR5 racing Corvette head's intake port (which is itself more conventional than the production Gen III SBC very tall very narrow intake ports).

#181 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 10:12

Originally posted by Engineguy
.....I started my subscription to Hot Rod in 1962 when I was 6 years old, Car Craft a few years later, Road & Track, Car & Driver, and AutoWeek late '60s.....


Do you remember the article on the sheetmetal engine?

This was fabricated using sheet and tube... I guess it might have been about 1963 or 1964... chrome moly, a lot of it IIRC. From memory, a 4-cyl DOHC engine... but I may be wrong.

#182 McGuire

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 13:10

Originally posted by Engineguy
I saw one of these Moser DOHC SBC engines in a (USAC? 255 cubic inch for OHC?) sprint car at Winchester (where the men are seperated from the boys) in the early '70s after seeing it in Hot Rod. I was thrilled to see one in person (I think only six sets of heads were made). While it's a bit dated from a current DOHC design thinking standpoint, I still think it is a clever tight package. If I ever "win the lottery" I think I'll have to chase down a set for my AMBR candidate. :up:


I seem to remember Tom McMullen built a rod with a Moser in it. (?)

Ya know... this is the only area in which the guys building cars for the AMBR and the Ridler have not yet gone totally over the top. How soon until we see a totally scratch-built engine? CNC being what it is these days, it's not out of reach by any means...

#183 Wuzak

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 13:35

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Do you remember the article on the sheetmetal engine?

This was fabricated using sheet and tube... I guess it might have been about 1963 or 1964... chrome moly, a lot of it IIRC. From memory, a 4-cyl DOHC engine... but I may be wrong.


There was an article in Racecar Engineering a couple of years ago about the TVR Speed 12 engine. From memory its block was fabricated, as the production run couldn't justify designing a casting. Most of the bits like pistons and rods, plus heads, came from the Speed 6.

#184 McGuire

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Posted 27 March 2005 - 13:47

Originally posted by Engineguy
I had a brain malfunction and put it all out for the trashman. I get sick thinking about it now :cry: ; lots of interesting stuff in those. Now I grab a couple from Ebay every once in a while when something I want shows up.


On the other hand, you could count your blessings. Eventually you end up with a very strangely decorated home. :D

Along with the mags I also collect books (take up less space eh). The job takes me to several dozen racing or automotive towns a year, where I hit every used bookstore I can find. I have run across some amazing bargains in rare stuff and even more fun, a number of books I had no idea even existed.

But at some point the information really does begin to endlessly repeat on itself and you have too much to be useful. Lately I have found myself all excited about finding something only to find I already had it, which is a really stupid feeling. A few years ago I banished about 80% the mags to banker's boxes in the basement and attic, but every month there is more anyway. I have considered selling off the bulk of it but the thought of even performing an inventory is a powerful deterrent. I like to tell myself I will organize, catalog, and just enjoy it once I retire, but the closer I get to retirement age the more I realize I never will...retire, that is. When you really look at it, all material possessions can be a pain in the ass.

#185 ciaoduc1

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 09:36

Well you shouldn't put them there! :rotfl:

#186 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 16:47

Originally posted by Engineguy
I saw one of these Moser DOHC SBC engines in a (USAC? 255 cubic inch for OHC?) sprint car at Winchester (where the men are seperated from the boys) in the early '70s after seeing it in Hot Rod. I was thrilled to see one in person (I think only six sets of heads were made). While it's a bit dated from a current DOHC design thinking standpoint, I still think it is a clever tight package. If I ever "win the lottery" I think I'll have to chase down a set for my AMBR candidate. :up:

.


You were most fortunate.
I believe Johnny Parson was the driver using the car in the sprints and champ cars.
If I remember right, they had problems with cracking in the valve area.

A blown version failed to qualilfy at Indy in '77.

The last I heard of one was, about (guessing) fifteen years ago and a fellow in Alaska put one in a Jaguar XKE.
It and the Weslake Four-valve push-rod engine were high-lights of the gas-shortage panic-think of the seventies.

Bob

#187 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 16:49

Originally posted by Ray Bell
There was also a twin-cam (per bank, of course) 4-valve Chev engine built in Australia by Peter Fowler of Shepparton, Victoria. It was used very successfully by Bryan Thomson in sports sedan racing.

Another similar project was the Globe Products (Adelaide) twin-cam conversion for the small block Ford V8, I think on a 289. It raced with some effectiveness in the Elfin 400 driven by Noel Hurd.


Is there anywhere one can get more info on these heads?

With C.O.M.E. building new Holden V-8s, including alloy blocks, perhaps someone should build a OHC or four-valve version for it.
Bob

#188 Engineguy

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 17:26

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
You were most fortunate. I believe Johnny Parson was the driver using the car in the sprints and champ cars. If I remember right, they had problems with cracking in the valve area. A blown version failed to qualilfy at Indy in '77.
Bob

I recall Bruce Crower's Indy flat-eight made from two Cosworth-Vega heads, which received the 1977 SAE “Louis Schwitzer Award,” but I didn't realize there was a Moser there too.

#189 Engineguy

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 18:26

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
Is there anywhere one can get more info on these heads? With C.O.M.E. building new Holden V-8s, including alloy blocks, perhaps someone should build a OHC or four-valve version for it.
Bob

I don't know about those, but the current king of 4-valve conversions has to be ARAO engineering. They have pushrod 4-valve heads for small block Chevy (about $7000/set, four different porting levels available), big block Chevy, small block Ford (5.0L or 351 Windsor), small block Ford 351 Cleveland (update that Pantera), and Harley Davidson. And on the way, 4-valve heads for big block Fords and VW air-cooled flat-fours. Somebody's keepin' their pattern-maker busy!

Posted Image SB Chevy

Posted Image BB Chevy

Posted Image SB Ford Windsor

Posted Image SB Ford Cleveland

Posted Image Harley (they're working on a 5-valve Harley too)


#190 McGuire

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:14

Ain't CAD/CNC great?

#191 McGuire

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:19

This is the Davis DOHC V8, based on the flathead Ford V8 block and recip assembly. Joe Davis, an LA machinist, reportedly built ten sets of heads in 1948, of which four sets are known to exist. Bob Estes, an LA Lincoln-Mercury dealer, ran one in his car at Indy in 1952 converted to gear drive. However, the car experienced engine problems (water out the exhaust hmm) and failed to make the race. The car and engine survive today.

Posted Image

#192 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:27

At ma's house I have dad's old copies of Classic Cars which often had pictures of old rare racing engines. (Best part of the mag.)
The one I remember is the DOHC Studebaker (not a NOVI), but I know M. Thompson ran DOHC Chevies and a Halibrand was working on DOHC engines also.(I often wondered what happened to them)
Old engines fascinate the heck out of me.
Bob

PS-Oh yes, I may still have the mag., and maybe not, but a gent in Canada did six-valve heads for both Ducati and H.D. I last saw the article ten some years ago, about the time the Battle of The Twins, motorcycle road racing series, for which many of these exotic heads were being developed, was killed. It was getting more varied motorcycles, and press attention, than the headliner superbike race.


#193 McGuire

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:31

Here's how you build a boxer 8 out of Crosley bits...


Posted Image

note the four-ring pistons.

#194 McGuire

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:44

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
The one I remember is the DOHC Studebaker (not a NOVI)


That was a beautiful engine...built by Clem Tebow of C&T Automotive, who was also responsible for developing the Ardun V8 into a proper racing engine (as manufactured and sold by Duntov it was bascially a pair of castings with a lot of problems).

In stock form the Studebaker OHV V8 was a vastly under rated engine, its potential masked by its tiny ports and intake valves (1.50"!). But it had a stout bottom end and many clever features. The engine also employed a tiny bore (3.375") but enormous bore spacing (4.75") for some reason. With the DOHC conversion it could have become something, but it went the way of so many similar efforts due to lack of $$$ and resources.

#195 McGuire

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 22:05

Ooops...I neglected to mention the DOHC Studebaker V8's owner and co-builder, sprint car racer Willie Utzman. The cylinder heads were drawn up by Leo Goosen, while Clay Smith was the chief mechanic. The engine reportedly made 375 bhp on the dyno but once it was mounted in the car, the crankshaft snapped in two the third time the remote electric starter was engaged. (An adapter snout had been welded to the crank for the starter and gear drive.) The engine was parked and apparently never raced again. :cry:

Here is Utzman & cigar with his engine:

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#196 Bob Riebe

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 23:54

Originally posted by McGuire


That was a beautiful engine...built by Clem Tebow of C&T Automotive, who was also responsible for developing the Ardun V8 into a proper racing engine (as manufactured and sold by Duntov it was bascially a pair of castings with a lot of problems).

In stock form the Studebaker OHV V8 was a vastly under rated engine, its potential masked by its tiny ports and intake valves (1.50"!). But it had a stout bottom end and many clever features. The engine also employed a tiny bore (3.375") but enormous bore spacing (4.75") for some reason. With the DOHC conversion it could have become something, but it went the way of so many similar efforts due to lack of $$$ and resources.


If the the Stude. had 4.75 bore centers, how come old magazines (40 some years ago) said the Avanti engine were bored to the point the cyl. had paper thin walls?

Now perhaps info. on just how thin a wall can go was not well know,(and hundreds of other items know now, but that would mean that a Studebaker should be capable of apprx 350 some inches give or take(depending on deck height)

I know J. Kasse takes some Fords down to .200 in. wall thickness but normally .250 is around the bottom line.

Do you have any info on the new (current)alloy Stude. heads being made?
I just happened upon it at a Stude. forum.
Bob

#197 AdamLarnachJr

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 01:16

Originally posted by Engineguy
I don't know about those, but the current king of 4-valve conversions has to be ARAO engineering. They have pushrod 4-valve heads for small block Chevy (about $7000/set, four different porting levels available), big block Chevy, small block Ford (5.0L or 351 Windsor), small block Ford 351 Cleveland (update that Pantera), and Harley Davidson. And on the way, 4-valve heads for big block Fords and VW air-cooled flat-fours. Somebody's keepin' their pattern-maker busy!


Ya know its funny, I was just looking at them again the other night for a small block Ford. There is a lot of modifications to get them to work, but the wow factor certainly is there, though it seems that $7000 could be better spent on other engine modifications.

Good bits!

#198 McGuire

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 02:02

Originally posted by Bob Riebe
If the the Stude. had 4.75 bore centers, how come old magazines (40 some years ago) said the Avanti engine were bored to the point the cyl. had paper thin walls?
Bob


I don't recall reading or hearing about paper thin walls so I don't really know, but bore spacing does not really speak to wall thickness. Over its life the Stude V8 went from a 3.375" bore to 3.625." That's over a quarter inch, probably on the original patterns, and by then the machine tooling was surely worn out too. Striking daylight would not be much of a surprise.

The wizard of Studebakers is a guy named Ted Harbit. I know he's still around as I see him every now and then. He would know all the war stories in re the above as well as what is available these days.

#199 desmo

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 07:31

Lots of interesting stuff there. Thanks, guys.

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#200 soubriquet

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 09:00

Originally posted by McGuire
This is the Davis DOHC V8, based on the flathead Ford V8 block and recip assembly. Joe Davis, an LA machinist, reportedly built ten sets of heads in 1948, of which four sets are known to exist. Bob Estes, an LA Lincoln-Mercury dealer, ran one in his car at Indy in 1952 converted to gear drive. However, the car experienced engine problems (water out the exhaust hmm) and failed to make the race. The car and engine survive today.

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I'm really curious about this. The earliest belt drive cams that I know of were 1960's GM slant four, and the Pinto. Did toothed belts exist in the 1950's?