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#201 ciaoduc1

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 09:47

Do thinner cyl walls promote better cooling?

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#202 Engineguy

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 10:59

Originally posted by soubriquet
I'm really curious about this. The earliest belt drive cams that I know of were 1960's GM slant four, and the Pinto. Did toothed belts exist in the 1950's?


The first production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1961 Glas (Hans Glas, formerly of Googlemobile and BMW?). I think Fiat (and others) adopted them within a couple of years.

The first US production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1966 Pontiac Tempest SOHC inline six.

However, synchronous timing belt drive systems existed much earlier as an industrial timed power transfer device, and may well have been pressed into service for a home-built racing engine. If the engine pictured was so equipped originally though, it may well be the first ever... as such belts first were made right around that time, late 1940's.

#203 McGuire

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 13:05

As everyone knows, Offy never built a six-cylinder engine. Well, here it is. :D

Except this is and isn't a six-cylinder Offy. In truth, it's a Lencki. Joe Lencki was a Chicago racer who thought a six would be a better idea at Indy, so he commissioned Leo Goosen to draft this one up, whlie the pieces were built and machined in Fred Offenhauser's shop. It is essentially an Offy in most every way right down to its diaghram-type main bearings, but don't call it an Offy. If you did, Lencki was liable to punch you in the nose. He ran this engine at Indy for years in several different chassis, but apparently it never made the race (where hangs another interesting tale).

Lencki kept the car and engine in his office until he died around eight years ago; it has since been nicely restored. Side note: Lencki was also the inventor of Linckite, an oil additive now marketed by one of Bruton Smith's companies under a name I don't recall at the moment. Linckite was said to be the only oil additive ever approved by the FAA, whatever that may be worth.

Anyway, this is one of my all-time favorite sixes. Looks good, sounds good, runs good. Rare too: it is the only one of its kind, ever.


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#204 McGuire

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 15:44

Originally posted by ciaoduc1
Do thinner cyl walls promote better cooling?


Interesting question. The answer is it depends. Thicker walls provide more thermal mass, but thinner walls allow more rapid coolant exposure and transfer.

Thin walls can be trickier though... by far the most effective mode of heat exchange is via nucleate boiling -- of the tiny beads of water that cling to the interior of the jacketing. However, if the metal is vibrating or flexing around under stress the water may not be wet enough to adhere to the surfaces and you will get local cavitation in that area: tiny voids or bubbles of superheated air and coolant, which explode with miniscule but incredibly concentrated force.

When a cylinder detonates the cylinder wall will literally ring like a bell. That is the ping you hear in spark knock. The resulting cavitation around a cylinder wall can actually blow pinholes through it. This is also how detonation contributes to runaway overheating. When a big diesel with wet liners is torn down for overhaul, there will often be pinholes in the liners visible to the naked eye.

#205 Alvega

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 15:58

what aboutthis one (Toyota Tundra V8)

A 21st century racing engine designed around 1950s standards.

#206 Bob Riebe

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 19:05

Originally posted by McGuire


I don't recall reading or hearing about paper thin walls so I don't really know, but bore spacing does not really speak to wall thickness. Over its life the Stude V8 went from a 3.375" bore to 3.625." That's over a quarter inch, probably on the original patterns, and by then the machine tooling was surely worn out too. Striking daylight would not be much of a surprise.

The wizard of Studebakers is a guy named Ted Harbit. I know he's still around as I see him every now and then. He would know all the war stories in re the above as well as what is available these days.


As I thought about it, cyl. spacing is not as important as cyl. wall thickness.
When they started siamesing (is that a word :smoking: ) the Chevy cyl. the feared cooling problem never showed up and now their are a good number of push-rod engines with siamesed cyl.

One of the after market builders, builds oversized LS Chevy engines by removing the orig. sleeves and installing thicker ones for a larger bore.(I also believe due to their composition, the org. sleeves are not supposed to be bored, whilst they may be honed.)

It is also fascinating how, while it is not reccomended for engines used mainly on the street, often blocks water-passages are filled to a certain level for increased block rigity.

As their is a company now building six-litre versions of the B-O-P engine in the UK, I guess where there is a will, there is a way.
Bob

#207 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 22:48

Originally posted by Engineguy
The first production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1961 Glas (Hans Glas, formerly of Googlemobile and BMW?). I think Fiat (and others) adopted them within a couple of years.

The first US production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1966 Pontiac Tempest SOHC inline six.....


How about the Jeep six that came in about 1962, didn't that have a belt-driven cam?


McGuire... I'm sure that Lencki sounds great... I just love the sound of a good inline six!

#208 Engineguy

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 23:48

Originally posted by Ray Bell
How about the Jeep six that came in about 1962, didn't that have a belt-driven cam?

No, the Kaiser/Jeep 230 OHC had a Morse silent-type chain. I worked in a Jeep shop from the time I was 14 to 18 years old, so I saw a few... although mostly I took out original Jeep engines and replaced them with Chevy V8's, Chevy big inline sixes (in the pickups and Wagoneers) and added power steering.

It was the first OHC motor that was commercially produced in large numbers, at least in the US... (Crosleys, Stutzs, and Duesys don't count for "large numbers").

#209 McGuire

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 02:41

Originally posted by Ray Bell
McGuire... I'm sure that Lencki sounds great... I just love the sound of a good inline six!


Hard to beat a six for sound...or looks either. How about the XK Jag or an Aston. Or for something really special, how about one of Harry Miller's later designs, the Gulf Miller Six. Just look at this thing, a marvel of art deco industrial design. It's pure geometric form -- Miller was a true artist.

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#210 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 02:54

Quite likely we'll be building up a 6-cylinder Chrysler engine after the Dodge sedan is finished...

This will be for a period type of racing special as was common here in the thirties and forties. Young Ben, my nephew, is really looking forward to gas flowing that block!

#211 soubriquet

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 02:56

Originally posted by Engineguy


The first production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1961 Glas (Hans Glas, formerly of Googlemobile and BMW?). I think Fiat (and others) adopted them within a couple of years.

The first US production engine to use a toothed belt cam drive was the 1966 Pontiac Tempest SOHC inline six.


The Fiat 124 was introduced in 1966. Coupes and Spiders came with a 1438cc toothed belt dohc four. Snap. Twin cam and five speed motoring at Ford prices. Nice work Fiat.

That family went on to power the 131, 037 (supercharged) and Delta Integrale (turbocharged) rally cars.

If you go here:
http://www.carsfromi...ncia/index.html
and follow the Delta S4 link, there is a schematic for the induction and exhaust of the turbocharged and superchaged engine. 480bhp from 1760cc.

#212 Wuzak

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 02:57

Originally posted by McGuire


Hard to beat a six for sound...or looks either. How about the XK Jag or an Aston. Or for something really special, how about one of Harry Miller's later designs, the Gulf Miller Six. Just look at this thing, a marvel of art deco industrial design. It's pure geometric form -- Miller was a true artist.

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Not such a good businessman, though.

Miller's engines inspired the twin cam Bugattis.

Question: Did Offenhauser take over the Miller business when it went bust? And aren't the offy engines, at least the early ones, based on Miller designs?

#213 McGuire

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 03:00

Getting back to your cRaZiEr racing engines, here is the notorious Sesco "Two by Four." Sesco is better known for its Chevy V8-based 4-cyl inline midget engines, and even a few V4's (V8 sawn in half). But the Two by Four was an opposed or boxer four based on SB Chevy lower end and valvetrain components in a custom block. (Note the sectioned Chevy valve cover.) It had a camshaft for each bank with a central balance shaft mounted in the block between them. The Two by Four was devised to compete with the VW-based engines then taking over midget racing, obviously.

This engine was installed in a special long-wheelbase Edmunds low-bar midget chassis, and with Gary Bettenhausen driving won the Hut 100 in Terre Haute. The engine itself never caught on though. However, the car and engine are alive and well today, in pristine unrestored condition, and living in Auburn, Indiana where I snapped this photo.

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#214 McGuire

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 03:32

Originally posted by Wuzak
Question: Did Offenhauser take over the Miller business when it went bust? And aren't the offy engines, at least the early ones, based on Miller designs?


Without question. The Offy stood upon the shoulders of the Miller, absolutely. The Offy was basically just a Miller made for harder times: simpler, sturdier, cheaper.

These men were a team, a collaborative: Harry Miller was the founder, rainmaker, artist and visionary, Leo Goosen was the engineer and draftsman (and an artist in his own right at the drawing table) and Fred Offenhauser ran the shop. It can easily be said that he and his crew were artists too.

Miller claimed to know nothing about science or engineering, and the evidence would seem to back him up in many cases. He claimed to operate on pure intuition, that his best ideas came to him in dreams and waking visions, even voices that spoke to him. Batty as hell...like Bugatti but in a totally different way.

But from wherever they came from, Miller would then carry his vague conceptions and rough sketches to Goosen, who talked him out of his craziest ideas and invented ways to make the more practical ones work, while Offenhauser and his machine shop crew actually built them. When Miller went under Offenhauser, the down-to earth tradesman, took over the operation and ran it successfully for many years, with Goosen supplying the technical design expertise. Goosen had a direct hand in virtually important racing engine built in America for nearly half a century, and where he didn't his influence can clearly be seen.

#215 McGuire

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 04:36

Originally posted by soubriquet
Did toothed belts exist in the 1950's?


They sure did. The internally toothed drive belt, then known as the "Gilmer belt" after its original mfg'er, had been around at least since the 1940's. The Gilmer belt was originally developed for industrial applications requiring "synchronous" or timed drive systems (conveyors and assemblers) and so had already picked up the name "timing belt" before it was ever adapted to automotive engines, interestingly enough.

And before they became popular for camshaft drives, Gilmer belts were commonly used for other automotive applications requiring positive drive, namely constant-displacement blowers and fuel pumps. A Hilborn fuel injector pump cannot be driven by a v-belt as it will slip in proportion to speed, which would negate the pump's metering capability in proportion to engine rpm. So in Hilborn FI applications where direct drive could not be used, the Gilmer belt was employed.

But credit for the first successful application (however, not in production) of the Gilmer belt in a camshaft drive was in Bill Devin's Dyna Panhard-Norton-OHC conversion in 1955, it is said. (We can say it was successful because it won the SCCA National Championship in 1956.) This engine was a two-cylinder opposed Dyna Panhard block and roller-bearing bottom end with a pair of Norton Manx double-knocker jugs and heads grafted onto the case. The heads were modified for single overhead camshafts driven by a pair of 1.5" Gilmer belts, one for each cam with an idler pulley for each. The story goes Devin got the idea from a Gilmer advertisement he saw in Business Week . A two-barrel Weber carb fed each cylinder via fabricated manifolds, and the result was said to make upwards of 80 hp from 44 CID. There was also at least one DOHC version built. All in all, quite a feat of blacksmithing. This was the same Bill Devin who later became known for fiberglass sports car bodies and the various Devin sportscars.

#216 ciaoduc1

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 04:58

http://www.milleroff...und Gallery.htm

Tons-o-pictures on this page and sounds at the bottom.

Mr. Miller was very proud of his gear driven supercharger wasn't he?? They must have been a nightmare to start with such a long path for the fuel to travel and de-atomize...

#217 ciaoduc1

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 06:10

Can't for the life of me figure out how to attach picts...
http://www.leydonres...pages/bug3.html
Bugatti's U-16 is a beautiful symetrical engine. Must admit I know nothing about it. Anyone?

#218 McGuire

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 23:22

Originally posted by ciaoduc1
Bugatti's U-16 is a beautiful symetrical engine. Must admit I know nothing about it. Anyone?


The U16 was a recurring idea for Bugatti throughout his career. Of course, essentially this layout was two straight eights on a common case with twin crankshafts, otherwise known as a "twin straight eight." The first one Bugatti did was a large 450 hp aircraft engine for the first world war that found no takers in Europe but was licensed for manufacture in the USA. (Bugatti's end for this deal was reportedly $700,000, no small piece of change at the time.) Bugatti would return to the U16 concept for the T34 (?) which was never built and the T45/T47...if I have the types wrong I'm sure the Bugattistes will step forward and straighten me out.

Known as the King-Bugatti after it was converted to full-pressure oiling by Charles B. King, the aircraft engine was to be built in a big new plant in New Jersey with the Duesenberg Brothers, Fred and August, fronting the company. This is rather interesting as here we have a number of famous historical names including Ettore Bugatti, King, the Duesenbergs, and Harry Miller, who supplied the fuel system, all converging on this one engine.

Two thousand were to be built to start with another 8000 to follow, but the engine proved troublesome and the war ended with fewer than 50 built. Apparently none ever flew. However, on a parallel development path in Europe this engine was the basis for what eventually became the Breguet Leviathan.

With the war over the New Jersey plant went bust and the Duesenbergs landed in Indianapolis, while John North Willys purchased the factory just in time to run headlong into the postwar recession. Willys-Overland then went into recievership and the banks installed Walter P. Chysler to take over. The first Chysler car was developed in that facility and was almost built there, but Willys managed to push out the bankers and Chrysler and his group then took over Maxwell. I know I'm rambling but automotively speaking it's a small world isn't it?

Anyway, the U16 was not the only thing the Duesesnbergs were fooling around with in New Jersey...here is an aircraft engine of their own design, a 45 degree V16:


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#219 Engineguy

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 00:29

What is the point of the U-16 engine? Were the bores so small that the bore spacing didn't allow rod journals to be wide enough to be shared by the two banks? Or was the weight of an additional crankshaft (and bigger crankcase, crank gearing, etc.) simply the cost of being different for the sake of being different? :confused:

And for an airplane no less! :eek:

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#220 McGuire

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 23:59

Originally posted by Engineguy
What is the point of the U-16 engine?


Beats me, truly.

For the T45/47 it sort of makes sense to whatever degree off-the-shelf parts could be used, but for a purpose-designed aircraft engine it seems totally pointless. Two parallel crankshafts to haul up off the ground and drag through the air when one will do perfectly fine -- why?

That said, if they hadn't come up with all these crazy and fascinating approaches, we wouldn't have them to ponder and enjoy today.

#221 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 08:43

If they were using roller-bearing cranks they might run out of room... or maybe they figured that the joints wouldn't take the ultimate power?

#222 McGuire

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:06

Along similar lines, here is the Albro Bantam V8. Built in modern times (as in just recently) in Texas, it uses twin cranks and cams on a common crankcase, all based on 1930's American Bantam cylinder blocks and components. There is no good reason one would build such a thing...perhaps just to see if one can, or if one simply must have the fastest Bantam on the block. Does one need a good reason?

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#223 ciaoduc1

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:58

What kind of clearances are needed between the crank gears and the central idler? Wouldn't dualing crank harmonics beat the daylights out of the gear teeth?

#224 McGuire

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 16:17

Originally posted by ciaoduc1
What kind of clearances are needed between the crank gears and the central idler? Wouldn't dualing crank harmonics beat the daylights out of the gear teeth?

With helical gears I would think lash is not incredibly critical. As for the crank harmonics, yes, one would certainly think so. For inline fours the crankshaft torque reversals are in the range of 120-140%. Depending on how the two four-cyl. units are phased, the torque reversals could be reversed or counterposed...but the center gear is going to bear the brunt in any event, as you shrewdly spotted.

However, the American Bantam made a whopping 35 lb ft of torque (and that was the "good" one, with three main bearings instead of two hmm) so we are not exactly loosing the hinges of hell here. I would suspect one could get away with basically anything in this case.

#225 Greg Locock

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 22:59

Hmm, and with one tweak they could have had a boxer 8! Lower CG, perfect balance.


Gearing cranks together always sounds fraught with danger - but it has a long history, many battleships used geared drives (admittedly with turbines), and of course some long crankshafted engines took the drive off the centre via a gear, which is similar to, but not quite the same, as gearing two cranks together.

#226 Wuzak

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 13:37

The King-Bugatti U16 Engine of WW1:

http://www.wpafb.af....ngines/eng9.htm

#227 McGuire

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:50

In the category of "Racing Engines, Crazy," the perennial people's choice:

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#228 Wuzak

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 13:12

How to build a V8 when you're only allowed 4 "cylinders"!

Resposnible for one of F1's technical regulations......

#229 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 21:54

so for f1 you could shorten the block by at least 80mm if you went to square pistons instead of round ones, and the valves could increase in size.

#230 Macca

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:12

Originally posted by Greg Locock
so for f1 you could shorten the block by at least 80mm if you went to square pistons instead of round ones, and the valves could increase in size.


Only if you accepted a wider engine - the Honda NS 500 and 750 had the pistons end-to-end.............if you see what I mean............making a short wide V4 bike engine; but in a car that would be a long narrow longitudal engine.

See
http://int-trap-halt...ion_hall/05.htm

And you'd have smaller valves, but 8 per cylinder instead of 4.

Paul M

#231 McGuire

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 13:31

Here's another way to couple twin engines, driving through flywheel ring gears. The right engine is converted to counter-rotation and the left mounts the driveline. This is Tom Ivo's double Buick built by Kent Fuller:

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#232 McGuire

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 13:39

A more common method is the tandem, where the front engine drives straight through the crankshaft of the rear engine. Here is one of the more exotic examples, Jim Busby's double DOHC Ford dragster:

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#233 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 23:41

The same applied to Eldred Norman's Double Eight... built about 1947 using two sidevalve Ford engines joined by a double-row chain wrapped around sprockets on the front of one crank and the back of another... and time to fire as a V16...

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It also had a Dodge Weapons Carrier chassis and electric pumps actuated by the brake pedal poured water onto the front drums.

#234 Santi

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 23:40

OK, somebody had to say it.

You're talking about the Honda NS 500, but it was the NR 500 and NR 750 which had oval cylinders. Don't you remember?? It was called Never Ready.

NS 500 was which Freddie Spencer rode to win his first Championship in 1983, and it was a 2 stroker V3.

#235 McGuire

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 11:12

Speaking of totally crazy, everyone is probably familiar with the Pontiac Tempest Four, which was essentially a Pontiac V8 lopped in half. Well, Mickey Thompson, who used this engine as well as the V8 for a slew FIA mile and KM record attempts in the early '60s, decided to go them one better. For the 1.5 liter category he took the Tempest Four and sawed it in half, creating a 90 CID twin. With a GMC supercharger, it reportedly made around 270 bhp...for how long is not recorded.


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#236 McGuire

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 11:27

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The same applied to Eldred Norman's Double Eight... built about 1947 using two sidevalve Ford engines joined by a double-row chain wrapped around sprockets on the front of one crank and the back of another... and time to fire as a V16...


Very interesting, as this was also a common method of coupling here in the States. Here is a shot of the setup on the most famous twin-engine dragster ever, John Peters' Freight Train:


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#237 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 12:12

It must do wonders to the keyway in the front of the crank when the rear engine fails...

BTW, I remember reading about a weird Pontiac job that Mickey Thompson did... but was it the 2-cyl thing? It was an article in a contemporary Hot Rod Magazine.

#238 Macca

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 13:28

Originally posted by Santi
OK, somebody had to say it.

You're talking about the Honda NS 500, but it was the NR 500 and NR 750 which had oval cylinders. Don't you remember?? It was called Never Ready.

NS 500 was which Freddie Spencer rode to win his first Championship in 1983, and it was a 2 stroker V3.


:blush:

Oops - typo there. Officially NR=New Racing, of course.............and then there was the production version of the NS, the RS................and then the NSR V-4s.


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#239 McGuire

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 14:31

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It must do wonders to the keyway in the front of the crank when the rear engine fails...

BTW, I remember reading about a weird Pontiac job that Mickey Thompson did... but was it the 2-cyl thing? It was an article in a contemporary Hot Rod Magazine.


Yep, SB Chevys are famous for breaking the crank snouts anyway, for example with crank-driven blowers. The hope and/or presumption of the sprocket/chain setup is, I think, that it might serve as the weak link.

Mickey Thompson built an unlimited number of strange things...take a look at this. Note the crank-driven 92-series blower up front.

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#240 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 21:50

Oh yeah, from LSR cars on down...

Wonder how much that 'inlet manifold' contributes to reduction of chassis flex?

#241 desmo

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 06:05

How about a 48 cylinder motorcycle engine?

http://www.home.zonn...iter2432/48.wmv

#242 Engineguy

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 06:43

Originally posted by desmo
How about a 48 cylinder motorcycle engine?
http://www.home.zonn...iter2432/48.wmv

I guess you slept through post 62 of this thread :p

#243 McGuire

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 11:55

In the Cosworth thread we got off on this tangent...may be more on topic here. While that discussion was going on I just happened to walk into a restoration shop over at Sears Point where this vehicle was in attendance. Naturally, while we were talking someone raised the question once again...why did they do that anyway?

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#244 McGuire

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 12:00

here is another view of the Studebaker DOHC V8 built for Indy. This shot shows some of the construction details, and that apparently they built enough basic pieces for two engines...

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#245 McGuire

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 12:05

One of the craziest ever, at least to modern eyes: the 1903 Premier. Note the 90 degree valve angle, hemispherical combution chambers, shaft and bevel driven single overhead cam...all in 1903.

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#246 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 13:08

Originally posted by McGuire
One of the craziest ever, at least to modern eyes: the 1903 Premier. Note the 90 degree valve angle, hemispherical combution chambers, shaft and bevel driven single overhead cam...all in 1903.


And the roller cam followers... and I'll bet the insides of that inlet manifold were dead smooth!

#247 ciaoduc1

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 13:54

So is this one of the first uses of the coveted and I think rather mis-understood "Hemi"??

#248 Engineguy

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 15:48

Note the cylinder heads are integral to the cylinder blocks (a la Offy, etc.), but each port/valve guide/valve seat (I assume) bolts on. Easy valve jobs, eh? Wanna try some different port shapes? Just bolt on a new set! Always interesting to look at these early engines, dreamt up before everyone fell into lockstep with the accepted "right way" to build engines.

#249 desmo

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 16:23

Originally posted by Engineguy
I guess you slept through post 62 of this thread :p


*slaps forehead* I had a nagging feeling I'd seen that somewhere.

#250 McGuire

McGuire
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 02:37

...back to the Bugatti-King Duesenberg U16. This is the one in the ACD Museum in Auburn, Indiana. The brass engine tag is blank, but someone has hand-stamped "C1" on the crankcase...Note the Miller-type barrel valve carburetors, two one each side, four in all. There are also four magnetos...

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here is a closer-up I took of the gearcase where the two cranks are mated to the prop shaft. Sure would love to get a peek at what's in there...

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