47 replies to this topic

[Johnny Lugnuts]

With the imminent realease of Solitude for GPL, can someone help me brush up on my history lessons, or point me in the right direction? I know very little, other than the track was located in Germany, about seven or eight miles in length, had about 45 corners, and very high average speeds. Does Solitude still exist? Did the F1 cars run there, and if so, when?

Regards,

Johnny Lugnuts

[Ray Bell]

1961 to 1965... the roads are still there... go back a few weeks and you'll find a thread about it. Put 'solitude' into search and you'll narrow it down. Lots there about it all.

[Fast One]

There was a nice article in Motorsport a few months back. It is mentioned in the thread Ray refers to.

[Marco94]

This track is indeed still there and seems to be very popular these days. ;-)

The track is located SWW of Stuttgart, in the direction of Sindelfingen. It is named after the Solitude castle nearby. The first race were mountain climbs, held in 1903. The first "real" track was a larger variation, and managed by the Solitude-Rennen GmbH. Starting at the Solitude castle, going in the direction of Leonberg and Ehrlingen. Then joining the most recent variant at Glemseck. Following all the way to Schatten and then turing right instead of left. Going towards Stuttgart, turning North where the B14 now winds down to the city and finally NW again back to the castle. This track was used until 1937, when the "short" variant was first used. A track map of this one should be easy to find, using the earlier treads.

The wife of the owner of the Glemseck Hotel is completly nuts about the Solitude. If you ever want to come here, stay there. (I did not get paid to say that!) Bikers amass on Sundays. Great atmosphere! Since so little can actually be found on the web I plan to build a site about the Solitude some day. Just don't hold you breath. I am currently working on my master thesis at DaimlerChrysler in Sindelfingen and that takes up more than enough time. And yes, I did drive on the track. Two weeks ago, both by car and on a mountian bike.

Marco.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Johnny,
You find a good map about the Solitude here:

[Hans Etzrodt]

Johnny,
I cannot find the old thread as Ray had suggested. Maybe they deleted it? Here is some F1 information.

In 1960, they held a F2 race at the Solitude. The FIA promoted the 1960 F2 cars to F1 standard in 1961.

The first F1 race was held 23 July 1961. Innes Ireland won the 25 lap race in (Lotus-Climax 21) ahead of Jo Bonnier and Dan Gurney both (F1 Porsche Flat-8's).

On 15 July 1962 the next race was held and Dan Gurney won the 25 lap race ahead of Jo Bonnier, both (F1 Porsche Flat-8’s), ahead of Trevor Taylor (Lotus-Climax V-8 24).

On 28 July 1963, Jack Brabham (Brabham-Climax BT3) won the 25 lap race ahead of Peter Arundell (Lotus-Climax 25) and Innes Ireland (BRP-BRM) third.

19 July 1964, now 20 laps, won by Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax 33) from John Surtees (Ferrari 158) and Bob Anderson (Brabham-Climax BT11) third.

1964 was the last F1 race on the Solitude. The last race took place in 1965, for Formula 2 cars, won by Chris Amon.[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 07-31-2000]

[Marco94]

Just use the search facility on the top op the screen. All the treads are there.

Marco.

[Roger Clark]

Bonnier and Gurney drove 4-cylinder Porsches in 61

[Ray Bell]

The Amon win got attention on about page 8 of the Amon thread (easy to find, it's at the top of a page), subsequently leading to discussion on the Tech forum (Cosworth SCA). But there was a thread when someone said they wanted to have a look at it and wanted more info.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Roger, thanks for finding my mistake. In 1961, the F1 Porsche did indeed have 4-cylinder engines. My apologies.

Johnny, there is a book. "Solitude 1903-1965 Die Automobilrennen", published by the ADAC Württemberg in 1990. It is a German language paperback, soft-cover, 11.5 x 18 cm, has 160 pages including some B&W pictures and circuit maps of the old and new circuit.

[Marco94]

Hans,

There is actually a second book, also by the ADAC, about the motorcycle races on the Solitude. This book was writen by Eugen Schwartz, former track speaker. It is much beter than the one you mention. The "car" book was also started by Schwartz, but he died before completion. The people who finished the book did not have as much passion and knowledge. The title is "Solitude 1903-1965 Die Motorradrennen." I think. Apparently, a Jim Read or Redman also wrote a book about the Solitude. Title unknown to me.

Marco.

[Roger Clark]

This is a description of the circuit, from Motor Sport, September 1960.

"The Solitude circuit has been in exitence for many years and takes its name from Schloss solitude, an old German castle on top of one of the hills overlooking the valley in which the circuit lies. It has been in use regularly for motocycle racing and I first mde its acquaintance in 1950, since when it has been widened considerably, resurfaced and brought up-to-date as te years have passed, but due to internal friction in the German automobile clubs it has never been used for a major motor race. National sports-car races have been held there, and last yer an International Formula Junior race was held on the circuit. with an important F2 race being held this year the solitude circuit has made a long overdue step forward into the limelight of international racing. It is such an interesting circuit that it justifies a lengthy description, and it is to be hoped that it will play a more important part in German motor sport in the future.

"The starting area is wide and level and a shor straight leads to a series of four left hand bends; they can be taken in one complete arc, to form a very large radius hairpin, "Glemseck", turning the direstion of te road through 180 deggrees. Between the start and the first corner are the pits, intelligently placed at an angle to the main track, the first pit being some 20 feet from the main track and hte last one about 10 feeet from the edge, thus allowing everyone in the pits a fairly unobstructed view and making a very large wedge shaped pit area. After turning through 180 degrees the road climbs steeply up the side of a hilll, round a very tight hairpin to the right, "Hedersbach", and on up the hill on a gradient of nearly 1 in 6.5, levels out a bit on a left curve and then climbs round a fast right-hand curve to the top of hte hillside. Here it takes a long fast left-hand bend over the the brow "FrauenKreuz" and down the other side, folllowed by another very fast downhill right-hand curve, and drops over a sharp brow to plunge into a sharp left-hand corner in thick woods. As the road levels out here this corner can be taken fasteer than imagined for the sudden cessatioon of losing height as you hit the corner means that the car gets a terrific downward thrust from its own weight, helping the cornering power of the tyres. From here the road is more or less level and to all intents and purposes it is straight, although in fact here are two left-hand curves, but these are flat out. this ends in a very sharp right-hand hairpin that drops to a left hand hairpin that continues to dropdownhill and is folllowed by a short straight rush down to a lake. Here the road turns sharp left round the edge of the lake and from here to the start te road runs along the bottom of a valley and is flat, but by no means straight. From the lake to the starting area there is a series of fast and slow corners, running through tthe woods with a high bank on the right. This is the most difficult par tof te coutse, for so many of te corner look alike and are all rather similar as regards surroundings, making them difficult to identify, and for 3.5 kilometres, after leaving the lake, on this home stretch there is no straight and the car has to be whipped from one lock to the other. The las tof this long series of swerves is a left hander which brings you out of the woods and onto the short pits straight. THe circuit measures 11.417 kilometres to the lap (approximately seven miles) and contains just about every situatioooon one could wish for in a racing circuit, and the whole thing is on normal public roads, closed for the occasion of racing, and sports cars lapped it at 150kph, (approximately 93mph)."

The racing featured F2, formula Junior and a number of motorcycle races in front of a crown of 250,000. The 250cc motorcycle race featured one of the first appearances in europe by a Honda, the 500cc race ws won by John Surtees o an MV Augusta. This must have been one of his last motorcycle races. Jim Clark won the FJ race, the F2 race was won by von Trips in the rear engined Ferrari. The report concludes:

"For once this had been real motor racing, with the first seven cars all going as hard as they knew how for the whole race, and if this was a foretaste of 1961 Grand Prix racing then no-one is going to be disappointed. Dan gurney summed up this excellent race very nicely when he said: "I've never had to drive so hard in my life for fifth place".

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marco,
Thank you very much for the information. Does the other ADAC book by by Eugen Schwartz "Solitude 1903-1965 Die Motorradrennen" mention the early autoraces or is it just about Motorradrennen, as the title indicates?

[Marco94]

Hans,

Only motor cycle races. Is there something missing in "Die Automobielrennen?" I am going to buy these two books very soon. If you are interested in them as well, I'll tell you after I've bought mine.

Marco.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marco,
I would be interested in your opinion about the book by Eugen Schwartz "Solitude 1903-1965 Die Motorradrennen", when you get it. I also would like to know the size of the book and if the old circuit map drawing is good or bad. I have the Autorennen book, which contains sufficient information and is helpful for doing research. The map of the old circuit is bad, I found a better one in No.26 of 1931 MOTOR und SPORT.

[Marcel Schot]

This is the thread : http://www.atlasf1.c...p?threadid=6725

And this one too :
http://www.atlasf1.c...p?threadid=1120

I wonder if Solitude is a solitary place, but know those surroundings it probably is.

[Marco94]

Hans,

I haven't read much of "Motor" yet, but I have read "Auto." From what I can compare, "Motor" is much beter. "Motor" was written by Schwarz, and he most certainly knew his stuff. The layout and type setting of "Motor" are better, and it has a lot more pictures. The short descriptions of the races are also better written. Let's call it the same difference as with DSJ and the present day Motorsport contributers. Having knowledge, passion and a good idea of what you want to say, or not.

Is it possible for you to send a photocopy or scan of this map to me? What exactly is this magazine "Motor und Sport," and in what kind of article did the map appear?

Like I mentioned before, I'd like to build a web site about the Solitudering. Any information and references are therefor very welcome.

Marcel, the Solitudering is definitly _not_ a solitary place these days. Lots of traffic, and in the weekends lots of motorbikes. They turn the road in front of Glemseck Hotel into a big parking place. But it is fun to come there.

Marco.

[Marcel Schot]

The GPL track has been released yesterday!
http://www.gplea.org/

[Keir]

Unfortunately, it doesn't work in "software" mode, which has to be one of the great mysteries out there. The original game was designed to work in both 3d and software modes. Of the two most famous track designers, Noonan and the mad gurus at GPLEA, only Noonan's tracks work as designed. The GPLEA tracks require a 3D accelerator of some kind. Something that I find very odd. You only need to look at the various forums and see what kind of trouble 3D cards cause, even Voodoo3, which GPL was supposedly designed around. They all have little quirks (framerate loss, screen freezes, game crashes, dark screens, clipping, lack of compatability with standard software, I could go on and on.)
Yet, the GPLEA guys work very hard, put out, what I hear are great tracks, but don't bother to have them work as the game intended.
Maybe, as I try to invest in an old, somewhat trouble free Voodoo, the boys at GPLEA could invest in a call to Noonan and ask him how he does it. That is, if they care enough to know.

[pinchevs]

First: Let me publicly congratulate Martijn for his wonderfull work

Second: I was sad to hear that it doesnt work in software mode. However, I do think that investing in any 3D card is a good idea. The old ones are very cheap and will turn the game on its head.

Moshe

[Barry Lake]

Marco94
When I was at the Alfa Romeo Museum near Milan in July 1999 there was a young German there named Marco connected in some way with Daimler-Benz making drawings of Alfa Romeo GP cars for something to do with his university course. Was that you, by some chance?

[Michael M]

[Marco94]

Nein, leider nicht. Oops I mean no, unfortunatly not. I am a Dutch university student, working on my master thesis at DaimlerChrysler in Sindelfingen (near Stuttgart.) Interesting to hear DC is commissioning drawings from Alfa-Romeo cars. Did the German Marco tell you more as to why etc.

Did you get a tour around the museum, or were you there on your own account. I have arranged to go there in 1997 with a group of fellow students, and that did involve some... hmmm preparations.;) Communicating with Italians in English (which the kind person we are talking about could not speak) and flatly refusing to answer in English, instead using Italian, was ammong the minoor problems. Oh well, you take it with a smile don't you.

Marco.

[Barry Lake]

Marco
We did think it odd that he was sketching Alfa Romeos but it had something to do with passing a university course of some sort and, now I come to think of it, he wanted eventually to be a stylist.
Hmmm, Mercedes-Benz perhaps could learn a thing or two from Alfa styling.
Interesting that you should have had a language problem at the Alfa Romeo Museum because in both 1981 and 1999 our guide was Neil Verveijs (spelling probably not correct) who was born in Holland. He speaks excellent English but his (Alfa's?) history is not as accurate as it might be. They perpetuate a few myths. Neil is now officially retired but still does part-time work for the museum.
On both occasions I was there as a guest of Alfa Romeo Australia although in 1999 there were only four Australians and we shared with about eight each of South African and Indian journalists. I was pleasantly surprisied at the high level of both technical and historic knowledge of the Indians. Perhaps I should alert them to this forum.

[Marco94]

I know about Mr Verwij (if I remember coorrectly, that was his name). Anyway the whole story: We were going on a study tour through Italy and naturally stayed in Milan at one point. We had been told by AR Holland, that a Dutchman was giving guided tours. An Italian exchange student made the first contact and told us that Verwijs was not with AR anymore. So we had to contact the infamous Mr Magro. He is the one not speaking English and sending fax messages in Italian. With our limited knowledge of Italian we decifered that we were very welcome if we would send a confimation that we were coming. Of our confirmation fax went to Italy.

On the big day our two van drove to Arese and parked near the museum. At this point I should ad that we were apperently not expected, because the gate keepers did not know of any Dutch students coming for a visit. However, being a flexible citizin of the EU, he passed the matter on to the gate keeper at the building housing the museum itself. He did know anything as well, but after some small talk about soccer and the right Milanese team (AC Milan, not Inter) and the three Dutch blokes that once played there we were referred to the reception inside the building. A pattern was becoming clear, but we were on our way in not out.

Once at the reception, we had to wait about 15 minutes longer. All this time a rather annoyed looking man was standing some distance from our group. Finally, an English speaking woman appeared. They must have called everybody in the building asking if they speak English. This lind woman explained that the annoyed man was our wel beloved Mr Magro and that we could not get a tour around the museum, as Mr Verwij was still enjoying being retired in Monza. If we had had send a confimation in order to confirm a confirmation of a confirmation... that we existed and wanted to visit he would have been there, but now he is in Monza. Needless to say that we had a little different opinion, but at least we were allowed in the Museum, only with no tour guide.

After about two hours, we were on our way out, when another group entered the museum. No need to tell who was leading this tour is there. ;-) A nice museum all in all, but it could have been better I think. The whole experience was unique and so hilarious, I'll cherrish it for the rest of my life.

Marco.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marco,
I will scan a map of the old 22.300 km circuit, in use from 1925-1933. The circuit was overhauled and shrunk to 11.515 km in length from 1934 on, or 11.53 km (no time to research this one). I don’t know how to show any pictures here, instead I will mail it to you. The old circuit map was in No.19 of "MOTOR und SPORT". This magazine was published by the Vogel Verlag in Pößneck, Thüringen from 1924 to just before the German collapse. In 1948, "MOTOR und SPORT" was dissolved together with DAS AUTO into "das AUTO + MOTOR und SPORT' now called "auto motor und sport".

The best information about the Solitude should be hidden in the old Stuttgart dailys. The Stuttgart Main Library should have old copies of their two newspapers on microfilm. Here are the dates to look up. The following races show results for racing cars (sport cars and motorcycles are not shown here).
1922, 18 June Mountain Climb, won by Hellmuth Hirth (Fafnir)
1923, 17 June Mountain Climb, won by Otto Salzer (Mercedes)
1924, 18 May Mountain Climb, won by Otto Merz (Mercedes)
1925, 17 May Solitude Opening Meeting, won by Otto Merz (Mercedes)
1926, 12 September Solitude Race, won by Otto Merz (Mercedes)
1927, 18 September Solitude Race, won by August Momberger (Bugatti)
Automobile racing was stopped because the circuit was considered too narrow.
1949, 18 September Solitude Race, won by Toni Ulmen (Veritas)
1950, 13 August Solitude Race, won by Karl Kling (Veritas)
1959, 19 July Solitude Race, won by Michael May (Stanguellini)
1960-1964 see previous post.

[Darren Galpin]

Hans - As the map posted came from my webpage, could you please drop me a copy of the longer map too?

I know the Solitude track well, as I worked in Stuttgart for a year, and lived in Buesnau (on the bottom right of the map). I've driven most of the track and cycled it, and it is most impressive. As were the number of bikers at the Glemseck Hotel on Sunday afternoons!

[Marco94]

Thanks Hans,

But before you send al these scans, contact me. I will probably have to give you some tips as to how to deliver them. Limited mailbox capacity, confidential e-mail address, the works. But thank you for the tips on the old Solitude. I'll start digging.

Darren, any time you want to come over again and drink a "Weizen" just say so.;)

Marco.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marco,
Send me an E-mail so I get your address.

The scan is a 233 KB JPEG Image, showing the whole page. Your mailbox should hold at least 1 MB. Emty it for me.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Darren,
I will send you the whole page as I had offered Marco. If you want a larger scan of the circuit only, let me know.

[Darren Galpin]

Marco - thanks for the offer! Mine will be a dunkels hefe-weizen.

[Marco94]

OK, thats it! The sun is shining, it is warm, I am at work and then you mention beer. Time for a drink isn't it.

Marco.

[Darren Galpin]

It sure is. And just to make it better for me, I'm off on holiday tomorrow morning!

[Hans Etzrodt]

Marco,
I sent you mail to DC.
Please let me know how far you get with researching the old Dailys.

[Barry Lake]

Marco
Interesting story about the Alfa Museum. It sounds as though they sent their PR people to train at some Australian car companies (they used to be great in the 1980s, now most are less than useless, don't want to do anything to promote their products).

Hans
Is there any chance of my getting a copy of that circuit map. It sounds like it comes from a source to which I could never have access.

And can anyone tell me where I can buy copies of the Solitude history books?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Barry,
I will send you the page I had mailed to Darren and Marco. If you want me to enlarge just the circuit without text, let me know.
Maybe Marco sits near the source in Stuttgart, the ADAC Württemberg. The ADAC should have copies left. My sister told me they were free, just shipping costs. Where do you get your book from, Marco?

[Barry Lake]

Hans
Thanks for the map. Greatly appreciated. Now all we need to do is track down where we can buy the books.

[Marco94]

Hans,

I haven't bougth the books _yet_, they were on loan from the "Landesbibliothek Baden-Wuertemberg." Once I have them I'll tell you were I got them. Of course ADAC could also still have them. They have a home page: http://www.adac.de, but it'll take a long time before you find any addresses. :-(

As far as reseach in daily's is concerned, I am afraid that I will not be able to do that. Time is in short supply at this point in my master thesis project. I am here until 30 September 2000, at that date all the work that _has_ to be done here needs to be finished. Had things been running a little more smooth, I would have had more time left.

Marco.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Sorry to hear you are so busy. I thought the ADAC should have their main office in Stuttgart. They should be in the phone book or Gelbe Blaetter.

[ma71jl]

Damn... I don't believe this... I am living in Boeblingen, Germany (right next to Sindelfingen), only I go back home for a week this weekend and then only have 1 more week left here before uni in England starts up again...

I'd heard some rumblings about the Solitude track recently, but didn't realise it was on my back door step! I assumed it was the other side of Stuttgart or something.

Marco - which town should I head for should I find time to go and see the track? It looks like I will only have transport until Friday morning unfortunately, so if you could reply to me via Email very quickly, it would be very much appreciated - I might be able to find time to see it tomorrow afternoon... my email address is ma71jl@hotmail.com.

Thanks,
James.

[Barry Boor]

Rather than start a new thread, I have dragged this one back from the depths in order to ask a question that I cannot seem to find the answer to on any of the Solitude threads (there are 10 of them...)

One of the maps on Darren's site and the one in my Autosport Directory 1955 show the start/finish point about 2 miles back down the anti-clockwise road to where it was in the early 1960s. Question: was it ever down there or was that just where they thought it was going to be?

[Ray Bell]

I don't know if you've had an answer to this, Barry...

But last night I took a drive around what I could of the circuit. There's just one part not driveable, the bit Jenks described so:

"Here it takes a long fast left-hand bend over the the brow "FrauenKreuz" and down the other side..."

On the Pistonheads site I found someone who's been on a discovery tour and has mapped it with the slightly longer and much less attractive run down to the road junction. From what I could see in the dark there is no indication of where the little curved link went, but I'm about to have another look,

Repeating Michael's map:



My impressions on my first visit were, "Wow!" The description Jenks gives of the run up to the start/finish are correct, a section requiring great concentration, no elevation changes of any note and constant winding back and forth in medium to medium-fast curves quickly following one after the other.

The 'Dresden china' quote may well have come from observing Surtees and Clark in the somewhat tighter turns immediately before the starting straight or perhaps through the climbing turn he referred to as 'Glemseck'.

I will photograph the course, naturally, but it's a sheer delight. The hillclimb section, Glemseck to FrauenKreuz, is not tight but does rise something like 100m (according to my GPS) while that is all lost again on the very fast section down to the hairpins at the city end of the circuit, where a roundabout now spoils things.

Jenks is right where he says this section is 'more or less straight', but it is far from level and reminds me of film I've seen of Spa. Those 1.5-litre cars must have wound out really well down here!

If anyone's interested in looking at the Pistonheads thread, click here It does have a video lap which I have not yet watched.

Edited by Ray Bell, 03 June 2016 - 06:38.

[funformula]

Regarding barry Boors question there was no other start/finish point on the Solitude track in the configuration used from 1935 onwards.

You can see the different track layouts here: http://solitude-revi...isto.htm#tracks

 

@Ray Bell

You can still see the abandoned Frauenkreuz-Section today, although the trees they planted there had grown in the last 25 or so years.

Are you currently in Stuttgart? I presume you visited the Mercedes-Benz and Porsche Museum already.

Besides these two well known places there is an interesting little museum not far from Stuttgart in Tuebingen, especially when you are interested in race cars and vintage toys of all sorts.

http://www.boxenstop-tuebingen.de/

 

If you are interested in Porsche history especially in Gerhard Mitter, you may visit his son Gerhard jr. who has a motorcycle garage in Boeblingen about 10km from the Solitude track. He has a small exhibition of race bikes and misc. items relating to his father.

 

Cheers

[Ray Bell]

I found the eliminated section, thanks...

I've taken photos and will post when I get a chance. It wasn't very hard. Also, the first corner has been altered and I've taken pics to show that as well.

I am now out of Stuttgart, I did go to the D-B museum, I'm not terribly interested in Porsches.

And now, of course, you will tell me that there's displays there of Dr Porsche's work for others in the twenties and thirties, right?

If so, I will be very disappointed that I went to the Mercedes museum.

[funformula]

And now, of course, you will tell me that there's displays there of Dr Porsche's work for others in the twenties and thirties, right?

 

 

Ahemmm.......well.......I think so.

[Ray Bell]

Here's a pic of where the road went through the forest, it's pretty easy to find it:

[LittleChris]

Thanks for the photo Ray. Enjoy the rest of your trip.

Solitude closed mainly because they updated Hockenheim a few miles away and now big chunks of each have been returned to nature.

I think I remember reading that Phil Hill reckoned the series of S bends from Busnau down to the start finish area were more difficult to commit to memory than the whole of the Nordschleife as each bend was slightly different but the entry looked similar

Edited by LittleChris, 10 June 2016 - 20:29.

[ozpata]