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#1 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 31 July 2000 - 01:30

An E-mail friend of mine, Tony Kaye, asked me the following question:
"When were laurel wreaths outlawed from F1 and why?"

Could it have happened during 1981? I am not sure.
I thought that maybe someone at The Nostalgia Forum knows.


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#2 Eagle104

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Posted 31 July 2000 - 02:03

Since he has his nose in everything else, maybe Bernie's allergic to them?
(sorry, I'll try to be serious from now on)
;)

#3 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 31 July 2000 - 02:56

Hello Eagle104,
This is what I told my friend originally but he did not buy it:
When little Alain Prost won the German GP on the old Nuerburgring, he collapsed on the podium under the heavy weight of the huge German laurel wreath. This was all recorded on life digital TV and Bernie Heckelstein was so embarrassed about this that he put a stop to it. At the next race the winner was presented instead with a bottle of champagne because Bernie Heckelstein was also in the liquor business. :lol:
I hope there are some serious people around us.

#4 Leif Snellman

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Posted 31 July 2000 - 06:24

If I remember correctly, the reason was that some sponsor(s) complained that you couldn't see their logos on the driver's overalls on the podium. It was sometimes in the early 80s but I cannot remember exactly when.





#5 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 31 July 2000 - 17:13

At the Goodwood Circuit Revival meetings, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place drivers all receive a laurel wreath - although the wreaths are rather puny.

#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 09:45

My search has ended.
On 12 April 1981 at the Argentine Grand Prix, Nelson Piquet won. While he stood on the podium, Ecclestone ordered him to remove the laurel wreath from around his neck so that the "PARMALAT" badge across his chest could be seen, which would have otherwise been obscured by the laurel wreath. Parmalat was the sponsor and Bernie the owner of the Brabham Team. That's all I can find about this subject on page 168 in Ivan Randall's "The Power Game".

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 10:03

That's great work, Hans, there's nothing like accruacy!

#8 Rogue

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 11:32

Unusual that it should be for commercial reasons !

Undoubtedly the same reason why 'they' are obviously loath to reduce wing sizes in favour of mechanical grip, but that's another arguement...

Regards,



#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 11:44

More accruacy!

#10 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 21:26

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
My search has ended.
On 12 April 1981 at the Argentine Grand Prix, Nelson Piquet won. While he stood on the podium, Ecclestone ordered him to remove the laurel wreath from around his neck so that the "PARMALAT" badge across his chest could be seen, which would have otherwise been obscured by the laurel wreath. Parmalat was the sponsor and Bernie the owner of the Brabham Team. That's all I can find about this subject on page 168 in Ivan Randall's "The Power Game".


I barely believe my eyes!!
Hans, you have to be joking !
Hans Etzrodt, the most sophisticated Grand Prix detective that I have ever heard of settling a matter with just one clue !
Of course, you are joking.
First, because Ivan Rendall, with all my due respects, is not an authority. Frankly speaking, I respect your opinions and the ones from several of the people involved in this Forum more than his (but this is a personal choice, I know, and I am no authority either).
Second, because the quote is a pure anecdote. Not even sure if it is true. I have seen the pictures of the podium (with the three of them -Prost and Reutemann being the other two) and the wreaths are so huge that there is no way that the Parmalat badge can hide behind.
Third, I have browsed my pictures from that race onwards until I was too hungry and tired to follow. Curiously enough, there are many other races where the laurel wreaths are used, and if you make some memory you will be able to picture a couple of them : Vileneuve in Jarama 81, for instance, or Rosberg in Monaco 83. It is true that in some other races the wreaths are not there, or are substituted by smaller things on the head (what's the name of that?).
But, oh surprise of surprises, I ended up my search at the very last race of 1983, the South African Grand Prix. And what do I find there? A picture of the just crowned World Champion, Mr Nelson Piquet, with a huge laurel wreath that is no different from the 1981 ones -so, big enough as for the Parmalat logo to be perfectly visible-!
I am no fan of Bernie Ecclestone, for many reasons that do not need to be told here. But the Argentine 1981 story is so unnacurate that I do not want to insist on it.
Now the question is : when, from the start of 1984, was the last time a laurel wreath was seen around the neck of the winner of a World Championship Grand Prix ?
I honestly don´t know, and I am too tired to spend a couple of hours more browsing my really less favourite period.
Younger researchers will, I am sure, be delighted to answer this one for us...(I am curious too).
Best regards
Felix Muelas

#11 MOTORSPORT RESORT

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Posted 01 August 2000 - 22:34

Actually; what really happened there was a time when the Pilots-(drivers) were "Fat" and the tires "Skiny", so everything changed the tires "Fat" and Pilots "Skiny" they really didn't have the strength to hold the "Wreath", kiss the "Race-Queen" and drink the winning juice...That's when the PIT-BABE WAS LOST FOREVER!

#12 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 02 August 2000 - 00:50

Felix,
I think I had it coming. Impatience does not pay off in research. I agree this is not how research should be done and I usually require two independent sources before I start forming an opinion. It would have been better for me to say: "Look, this is what I found. Who can tell us more about it." I did not do that. My fault. You have revealed many more facts and I think there must be somebody out there who has the 1984 magazines to come up with the answer. F1 is not my strength. I just watch the races every second weekend.

I already had two of Randall’s books, which contain mistakes. Being cautious, I read Chapter 1, which deals with the years 1894-1949 (my turf) before I bought "The Power Game". I found it to be truthful and accepted several omissions. Based on this check-up, I concluded that if Rendall had the more difficult, early years correctly covered, then the F1 era should be no problem for him.


#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 August 2000 - 13:55

Hans, this question is so serious that it deserves every bit of attention a team of researchers can pay to it.
Or at least to look in a couple of books...
But then, which is the more important?
To know when the wreath was dispensed with or when the wine was no longer able to be consumed because of its wasteful spraying round the assembled multitudes?
Or perhaps when drivers stood for the national anthems, or when the national anthems were first played?

I'd rather get back to the racing.

#14 axeman

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Posted 07 August 2000 - 07:48

For what it's worth, they gave out laurel wreaths at the Superbikes on the weekend.

Go Troy (both of them)!!!

#15 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 14 August 2000 - 05:24

The original question is not yet answered. It was:

"When were laurel wreaths outlawed from F1 and why?"

Does anybody have the magazines from the Eighties and could look this up please? :D

#16 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 14 August 2000 - 19:31

Hans,

Your original (researched) answer is at least partially correct. Ecclestone,being the marketing wizard he is, and FOCA, did not necessarily "outlaw," Laurels. It was stated in the Concorde agreement that race organizers would present trophies in lieu of Winner's Laurels and that Laurels would no longer be the accepted acknowledgement. The champagne spraying routine was started by Dan Gurney, when he and A.J. Foyt won Le Mans. The original choice of Moet as the champagne presented to the top three was in the capable hands of Jackie Stewart who was the Moet representative. This was "challenged," at the Grand Prix of Holland in 1980. The races title sponsor, Giacobazzi, insisted that bottles of their "bubbly," be presented to the top three. Jackie, not to be outdone, strategically placed large bottles of Moet in front of each of the finishers.

I was there working the event for EFDA.



#17 Felix Muelas

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Posted 14 August 2000 - 20:49

Gil,
After reading your well researched explanation, I think I owe an apology to both Ivan Rendall and Hans Etzrodt.
Of course it all starts with a misunderstanding on my part, and I perfectly accept the Concorde Agreement as the original source of the "change" in status.
Nonetheless, I still feel curious about the question as it has evolved : Does anybody know when was the last time a laurel wreath was offered to the winner of a F1 race?
Thanks for the contribution; excellent one.
:-)
Felix


#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 14 August 2000 - 23:55

Thank you Gil, we are now almost at the finish.

No need to apologize, Felix. You were absolutely right that Randall's version was not the right answer. Anyway, we now know much more because of Gil's effort. Thanks.[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 08-15-2000]

#19 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 15 August 2000 - 05:02

You know I really like the "junior member," title.... I was polishing a Cisitalia monoposto in 1954.

Gil

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#20 Barry Lake

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Posted 15 August 2000 - 05:17

Gil
A good answer, but it still doesn't put an actual date on the last time laurel wreaths were used. Can you put a date on the implementation of that version of the Concorde Agreement, for a start.

Another subject has been raised here - champagne spraying.
Always suspicious of claimed "firsts" in any sphere, when I saw the Toyota ad claiming Gurney began the tradition, I tried to find earlier examples.
So far, I only have found reference to Rauno Aaltonen spraying champagne at the end of a rally he won, some two or three years earlier.
I think this (and the laurel wreaths - when were they first used in motor sport?) is worth bearing in mind as we research other things and to note any examples we might stumble upon.

Some people might think such things trivial, but I believe all history should be recorded accurately. There is too much "invention' for the sake of a good story.

#21 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 August 2000 - 06:31

Gil, they keep you young here as a Junior Member. I think everybody goes through the junior stage. What you have to do to become a Member I don't know. After I introduced myself explicitly at the Introductions thread ( you find it on page two of the Nostalgia Forum) I became Member but don't know if that is the criteria.[p][Edited by Hans Etzrodt on 08-15-2000]

#22 C F Eick

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Posted 15 August 2000 - 11:42

Hans,

you became 'Member' because you'd posted more than 29 times, from the 30th post you're not 'Junior' anymore!

/Christian F Eick

#23 axeman

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Posted 15 August 2000 - 23:35

Re champagne spraying........

I once heard Jackie Stewart say he was the first to spray champagne and that it came about by mistake. After some race that he had won where it had been really hot he was so thirsty that he endevoured to get the top off the bottle as fast as he could. In his haste he managed to shake it up so that when the cork finally came off it sprayed all over the place. He finished off with some quip about "and now it's just standard practice"

Didn't believe him for a second................

#24 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 18 August 2000 - 16:44

To find an answer for the actual date of the suspension of wreaths I went to the FIA. To make it more interesting I called the head of the ACCUS, this is the American ASN. "Birdy" Martin said that he had no idea when it happened and suggested going to old photos.

Being the resourceful lad that I am, I sent the question to the ASN I thought would have the best answer. The DMSB in Germany.

I am reasonably sure that they have the answer someplace.

Gil Bouffard

#25 Felix Muelas

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Posted 18 August 2000 - 21:26

Whilst Gil´s ingenious initiative is on its way, the process of inspection of podiums that I left at the South African GP of 1983 has continued. Those of you who know me are aware that I find the eighties as interesting as "watching the grass grow" -in Racer's words- so imagine me browsing through magazines in search of a wreath...
I have arrived to Zandvoort 1984, and there is a flower wreath offered to Prost as big as the usual laurel ones. Previously, in Austria and Germany, there are those "golden" laurel wreaths to the winner, so I think we are still "in the period" of laurel wreaths.

Then, I am more or less sure that there is no sign of any laurel wreaths or similar in all the 1987 season, so we have a couple of races of 84, and the 85 and 86 seasons to inspect...
:-)
fm


#26 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 18 August 2000 - 22:14

I forgot to tell you. Birdy Martin believes that it was as late as 1990 before they stopped using laurel wreaths.

Gil Bouffard

#27 Felix Muelas

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Posted 20 August 2000 - 21:31

Gentlemen,

I am progressing slowly, but the newest "closer" point is Canada 1986. I have a picture of the podium (Mansell, Prost, Piquet spraying Moet) and the laurel wreath is visible at Mansell´s feet...
We are surely closer...
;-)
fm


#28 Don Capps

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Posted 21 August 2000 - 17:35

Like Felix, leafing through race reports of the 1980's is not my thang. Besides, after about 1982 it is all alien to me (look at my 8W scores for undeniable proof), but when then this was first posted I started to look for wreaths and recall seeing some in the 1984 period and perhaps even later, but other things to do beckoned...

#29 Barry Lake

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 03:16

Photographers have to be quick to get a laurel wreath shot these days. I notice even in Australian V8 Supercar racing, if a wreath is placed around a driver's neck he (obviously instructed) removes it very quickly so the sponsor's names on his driving suit can be seen.

All of this reminds me of one of my pet hates for many years now:
Question. What does Joe Bloggs, racing driver look like?
Answer. Someone with a nose and a mouth and sometimes two eyes, wearing a cap pulled well down over the forehead so the sponsor's name can be seen (which sometimes shades the eyes so much they can't be seen).
In recent years, I many times have spotted a new F1 driver at the Australian Grand Prix (without a cap) and failed to recognise him, despite having seen all the publicity photos during the lead up to the event.
Perhaps they should wear numbers...

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 August 2000 - 21:53

My biggest problem in identifying local drivers is realising they are all getting so much older...
As for International drivers, the photos don't seem to represent them as well as they might, hats or no hats.

#31 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 00:32

Re: Photographers have to be fast to get a shot of wreaths, or whatever.

Most of the motor racing photographers I know are under contract to provide clear shots of their customer's logo on the driving suit. Therefore, they don't want laurel wreaths hanging around anyone's neck.

Also, remember, back in the good old dats when the tires were skinny, if a DUNLOP or ENGLEBERT or CONTINENTAL sign was on a driver's coveralls, it didn't matter as much as it does today.

Some drivers wore short sleeved pullover shirts. Fangio had a favorite blue shirt. Hawthorn had his green jacket. Harry Schell rolled his sleeves up. None of it was fire proof and drivers weren't being paid like they are today.

Gil Bouffard

#32 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 26 August 2000 - 18:55

Oh, I forgot to tell you.. Birdie (I misspelled it the last time) Martin says that there are specific regulations for F-1 race winner's trophies. Title sponsors are given a catalog listing the trophy choice and sizes. One of them ( the trophy Mika is holding aloft on the cover of last week's AUTOSPORT as a cast of the Ferrari steering wheel.

Photo editors now can use a stock photo if the same trophy is presented to the winner at more than one race.

So now you have cars with no discernable physical changes and the "same," trophies being presented to the winners. Maybe they wont run the races and just let you browse all the stock photos to create your own race!

With tongue in cheek

Gil Bouffard

#33 Flash

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 16:08

Please, excuse me for bringing this topic up again, I'm trying to find out when was the last time that a laurel wreath was used in a GP... as it seems that this never got to it's conclussion. Mr. Muelas saw a photograph with Mansell, Prost and Piquet in 1986 but none of the drivers were wearing them.
Here at Atlas I found this:
"what ever happened to the traditional laurel wreath for the podium celebrations? I see them draped around many a winning driver in Grand prix podium pictures from yesteryear, but the ritual seemed to have disappeared in recent times."
The traditional laurels indeed have been long gone. At some time during the 1980s it gradually disappeared. I have been looking through a few books on Formula One history and the most recent winner with laurel wreath I came across was John Watson when he won the USA-West Grand Prix at Long Beach in 1983. The reason for getting rid of this tradition? Probably money, since the wreath kept quite a few sponsors' names out of view".

So do you agree that the last driver to wear it was Watson or have any of you seen a more recent picture of drivers wearing them? Thanks... hope someone could help :D

#34 cjpani

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 17:34

/
I
I
I
:mad: :mad:


I know what youre up to flash :lol: :up: :up:

cj

#35 Flash

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 17:49

Hey I have to investigate Pani :p and everything is valid jeje...

#36 ehagar

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 20:46

Do they give out laurel wreaths to World Champions still? I vaguely remember Damon Hill having one in Japan....

#37 Felix Muelas

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 21:32

Originally posted by Flash
So do you agree that the last driver to wear it was Watson or have any of you seen a more recent picture of drivers wearing them? Thanks... hope someone could help :D


As it seems I shot myself in the foot with this topic, let´s go straight to the point : if you are interested in shots with drivers actually wearing a laurel wreath, the most recent one that I can remember (and should someone needs optical conviction, I´ll scan the picture and post it) is Monza 1985, Alain Prost.

And the last one, by the look of my comment some time ago, would still be Canada 1986.

Come on, thanks to Flash´s resurrection techniques we might be closer than ever to the answer...

;)
Felix

PS : Carlos, I really did not understand your comment :confused:

#38 cjpani

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 21:40

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
PS : Carlos, I really did not understand your comment :confused:


Félix, es un chiste personal, esta pregunta forma parte de una trivia de otra página de internet,, es todo.
Como van las cosas?
Recibe un cordial saludo
Carlos

#39 Felix Muelas

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 21:46

Carlos,

Thanks for clarifying ! ;)

That being the case, I am going to bed immediatly :lol:

Un abrazo

Felix

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#40 cjpani

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Posted 17 April 2002 - 21:49

Sweet dreams :)

cj

#41 mikedeering

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Posted 18 April 2002 - 11:46

They definitely had them at the German GP 1985 - huge gold thing that Alboreto was wearing. I also am sure I saw Mansell with one after winning the 1985 South Africa GP. I don't recall seeing any 1986+.

#42 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 26 April 2002 - 23:03

Felix.

Did you scan the pic?

Thanks,
David.

#43 Reversa

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Posted 29 April 2002 - 18:09

Yes! We DO need THE picture! isn't it?

#44 Felix Muelas

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Posted 29 April 2002 - 19:34

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
...drivers actually wearing a laurel wreath, the most recent one that I can remember (and should someone needs optical conviction, I´ll scan the picture and post it) is Monza 1985, Alain Prost.


It looks like someone DOES...
:p
Posted Image

Felix

#45 Flash

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Posted 30 April 2002 - 15:32

Thanks a lot Felix.
David, parece que alguien hizo la tarea... te quedó facilito, anyway enjoy! :wave:

#46 Reversa

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Posted 30 April 2002 - 15:42

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Gentlemen,

I am progressing slowly, but the newest "closer" point is Canada 1986. I have a picture of the podium (Mansell, Prost, Piquet spraying Moet) and the laurel wreath is visible at Mansell´s feet...
We are surely closer...
;-)
fm


Mr Muelas,

Great that picture (Monza 85), but... what about Canada 1986! can you please post THAT picture?

thanks.

#47 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 30 April 2002 - 17:54

I'M BAAAAAAACCCCCCKKKKKK!

I gotta say that I was surprised that this thread is still among the top ten after so long...

Did you knwo that organizers of today's GPs have a choice of Three (Count them!) Three different trophies that can be presented to the podium finishers at a F-1 race!?!

As with everything else....From the post race "interview," to the champers spraying....to the trophy presentation...All is orchestrated and uniform so as not to look disorganized..

Haven't done a CART or NASCAR race in a while, but I remember that you had to be called upon to ask questions after a CART race.

Gotta keep the riff raff outta tha mix!

Its that same thing with those bloody sunglasses! If I wanted to interview Ricky Racoon, I'd go down to the local zoo..

All the Stockcar drivers look like "The Beagle Boys," gang from the old Mickey Mouse comic books.

Gil

#48 jarama

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Posted 30 April 2002 - 23:36

Hi, all, :wave:

I've been away for a (very, very long) while, but I'm back again.

Felix, it seems as if you're right. I've been checking the podium shots on the 1986 and 1987 seasons, and there is no trace of laurel wreaths after the '86 Canadian GP.

#49 cjpani

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Posted 01 May 2002 - 00:01

Welcome back Jarama!!
any new scale models on your bookshelf?? :)
regards
Carlos

#50 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 May 2002 - 07:12

Carles,

Thank God you're back! ;)
And yes, it took you almost a year...
Gracias por volver :clap:

there is no trace of laurel wreaths after the '86 Canadian GP.


I am still trying to figure out where did I saw that Canada podium shot...and then scan it!
Un abrazo
Felix