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Non-F1 National Grands Prix


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#1 Falcadore

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 01:21

Last week I was reading a report from the New Zealand Grand Prix, which today is a Formula Ford race (snigger all you like - desperate expediancy I suppose)

It got me wondering about past National Grand Prix. The Australian Grand Prix ran for decades with only a tacit acknowledgement of Formula One.

How many other national grand prix have been held to non-F1 regulations?

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 01:38

More than haven't I would suggest...

France, for instance, ran a GP for Sports Cars because their cars were being trounced by the Germans. Germany ran their for F2, IIRC... Spain, Portugal, these places you would think never have gone away from F1 have either had non-F1 races before they got F1 events or have diverged for some reason along the way.

Japan had several different formulae for theirs before 1976... and then there were all the European GPs that were part of the WDC in 1952/53 which were run for F2.

#3 petefenelon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 02:02

The Swedish GP used to be a sports car race at Kristianstad; the Anderstorp F1 race was reinvented much later (to coincide with Reine Wisell and Ronnie Peterson's F1 careers...)

The Cuban GP was also a sports car race.

The Australian GP, like the NZ one, has been through a number of incarnations, although it's now part of Bernieworld.

Wasn't the one-off non-championship F3000 race at Willemstad the "Curacao Grand Prix"?

#4 petefenelon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 02:14

And of course the Austrian GP was a sports car race between 65-9 - 917s round the Oesterreichring in '69... mmmmmmm ;) Portugal's had spells when their GP was a sports car race, too.


And there've been a couple of Belgian GPs for sports cars - I think an early post-War one, and '57 when Brooks won for Aston. (I can't remember what the politics were there....)

Even Monaco fell off the wagon once - when the race was a bit intermittent in the 50s, the '52 incarnation was for sports cars!

Macau is a (the?!) classic "non F1" GP, having run to Libre/sports, FPacific and now F3 rules. The Singapore GP used to be a similar bunch of people to Macau in a similar bunch of cars from the late 60s to the early 70s.

#5 Falcadore

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 03:02

Originally posted by Ray Bell
More than haven't I would suggest...

France, for instance, ran a GP for Sports Cars because their cars were being trounced by the Germans. Germany ran their for F2, IIRC... Spain, Portugal, these places you would think never have gone away from F1 have either had non-F1 races before they got F1 events or have diverged for some reason along the way.

Japan had several different formulae for theirs before 1976... and then there were all the European GPs that were part of the WDC in 1952/53 which were run for F2.


When was the German GP for F2 cars, was that in hte pre-51 era when the powers that were, had yet to over look the WW2 (but were quite happy to include Italy?)

And what did happen to the Portuguese GP between the days of Oporto and Pedrables, and Estoril?

Didn't Leo Geoghegan win the Japanese GP at one point in the 39?

The last point well... thats just being picky as you knew what I meant :)

Macau is however a principality not a country, we may as well include the Miami Grand Prix or the Gold Coast Grand Prix or...

Singapore GP is however new to me. Where was it held? Who won it?

#6 Rob G

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 03:19

Originally posted by Falcadore
When was the German GP for F2 cars, was that in hte pre-51 era when the powers that were, had yet to over look the WW2 (but were quite happy to include Italy?)

The German GP joined the World Championship in 1951, then became an F2 race along with all the other World Championship races in 1952 and '53. It was also an F2 race in 1960, the year after the two-heat affair at AVUS.

#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 03:48

Yes, it was to the 1960 race to which I was referring... on the Sudschleiffe...

The Australian GP was up to 2-litres until 1935, then FLibre until 1963, Tasman Formula to 1969 (2.5 litres), various F5000 versions until 1979. Then that mixed all-in race at Calder, FPacific until 1984.

Leo did win the Japan GP.

#8 eldougo

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 05:42

:)
They had the Singapore GP at Sembawang on the 6th April 1969.
1 G.Lawrence....... McLaren .
2 R. Levis ............Brabham.
3 T.Maw...............Elfin.

The Malaysian G.P. 1969 .....at BatuTiga.(one week after the above )

Unknown results( I think G.L. won it too).

Japan GP Fuji Speedway..
1 L.Geogehan ........Lotus Repco
2 R.Levis ...............Brabham FVA
3 S.Kato ................Mitsubishi F2

#9 jarama

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 07:04

Originally posted by Falcadore



And what did happen to the Portuguese GP between the days of Oporto and Pedrables, and Estoril?




Falcadore,

only to make things clear: Pedralbes wasn't a Portuguese circuit, but in Barcelona. Surely between Oporto and Estoril you're refering to Monsanto, isn't it?


Carles.

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 07:13

Originally posted by Falcadore
When was the German GP for F2 cars, was that in hte pre-51 era when the powers that were, had yet to over look the WW2 (but were quite happy to include Italy?)

1950

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 07:36

Originally posted by Falcadore
Macau is however a principality not a country, we may as well include the Miami Grand Prix or the Gold Coast Grand Prix or...

I've never heard Macau described as a principality. It is a Special Adminsitrative Area of China, and before that was an overseas province of Portugal (under a Governor, not a Prince)
But your point remains

#12 eldougo

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 07:50

:)
You also got this G.P......or taxi's
Posted Image :rotfl:

#13 Rob29

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 09:08

Am Israel GP for F2 was attempted im 1970 but only got as far as practice.
Irish GP for sports cars. Also Venezuela & El Salvador
Indonesia had single seaters. Also Rhodesia to Sth African F1 rules.

#14 Falcadore

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 09:45

Originally posted by jarama



Falcadore,

only to make things clear: Pedralbes wasn't a Portuguese circuit, but in Barcelona. Surely between Oporto and Estoril you're refering to Monsanto, isn't it?


Carles.


Very much so Carles, a memory lapse I assure you.

#15 Falcadore

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 09:57

Originally posted by Rob29
Am Israel GP for F2 was attempted im 1970 but only got as far as practice.
Irish GP for sports cars. Also Venezuela & El Salvador
Indonesia had single seaters. Also Rhodesia to Sth African F1 rules.


V8Supercar team owner Mark Larkham won the Indonesian Grand Prix at Sentul in his Formula Australia/Holden/Brabham/4000 Reynard in the early 90s.

#16 Falcadore

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 09:58

Originally posted by Rob29
Am Israel GP for F2 was attempted im 1970 but only got as far as practice.
Irish GP for sports cars. Also Venezuela & El Salvador
Indonesia had single seaters. Also Rhodesia to Sth African F1 rules.


Why only practice for the IGP?

#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:27

Originally posted by Falcadore


Why only practice for the IGP?


Crowd control. Or rather, lack of ....

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=33632

;)

We've also had a thread about the first incarnation of the Malaysian GP, but I can't be bothered to look :rolleyes:

The Irish GP's an interesting one, in that it wasn't an actual race, but was awarded on the overall results from two separate races on successive days in Phoenix Park.

#18 anjakub

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 14:27

Grand Prix Polski (Poland GP) 22 July 1963 on the streets of Gliwice - race for Formula Junior cars. It was first round (in history) of the Cup of People Democratic Countries, later named the Cup of Peace and Friendship.

#19 Stephen W

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 17:02

In 1976 there were the following None F1 Grand Prix:

28/03 Grand Prix de l'Estoril - F2 - *
25/04 Grand Prix Van Zolder - Touring Cars
02/05 Grand Prix de l'ACP - Estoril - GTs
03/05 JAF Grand Prix - Fuji - Group 8 Formula Libre
09/05 Grand Prix de Rome - Vallelunga - F2
16/05 Grand Prix Brno - Touring Cars - *
07/06 Grand Prix de Pau - F2
27/06 Grand Prix de Rouen Les Essarts - F2
27/06 Grand Prix Lotteria - Monza - F3
18/07 Grand Prix Zandvoort - Touring Cars
25/07 Grand Prix Mediterranee - Enna-Pergusa - F2
22/08 Grand Prix Jyllandsringen - Touring Cars - *
05/09 Grand Prix Des Trois Rivieres - FAtlantic
05/09 Grand Prix de F2 - Zolder
12/09 Australian Grand Prix - Surfers Paradise - F5000 - *
19/09 Grand Prix de Nogaro - F2
03/10 Grand Prix d'Albi - Touring Cars
04/11 New Zealand Grand Prix - Pukekohe - F5000 - *
07/11 Japan Grand Prix - Suzuka - Group 8 Formula Libre
12/12 International Grand Prix - Selangor - Group 8 Formula Libre - *

ALL of the above events were sanctioned by the FIA. The ones identified with an * didn't have an F1 GP in that country that year.

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#20 jarama

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 18:18

Stephen,

interesting list, but the goal of the thread isa dealing with the National GP (from the list would qualify the Australian, the New Zealand and the Japanese, AFAI understand...) ;)


Carles.

#21 Racecar

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 18:26

South Africa, of course, ran the SA GP series. There were some pretty serious machines there, as well - all of them full-blooded F1 cars. John Love, Dave Charlton in Lotus 49's and Lotus 72's, Ian Scheckter in March and Tyrrel, Basil van Rooyen and John McNichol in McLarens ... the racing was good.

And then there was the Springbok Series for sportscars - equally exotic machinery. Ah, the good old days ...

#22 petefenelon

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 21:13

Originally posted by Falcadore


V8Supercar team owner Mark Larkham won the Indonesian Grand Prix at Sentul in his Formula Australia/Holden/Brabham/4000 Reynard in the early 90s.


Wasn't that the one where Tommy Soeharto was allowed to run with a full-race F3000 engine in his Reynard, wasn't it, after "engine problems" in qualifying (which saw him tanking off without completing a lap).... of course, with at least 100bhp more than the FBrabham regulars..... he still didn't get round the first lap of the race.

Shows you just how many doors being the corrupt president's corrupt sun opens ;)

#23 eldougo

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 08:58

:)

I found these articles that i posted yesterday.

Posted Image Posted Image

And this as well.
Posted Image
Posted Image

#24 Rob29

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:05

Other countries with National GPs but never F1WC include Czechoslovakia & Yugoslavia.Oh.and from the Tiff Needell files;he won the Danish GP in 1976 for Formula Ford,and the Indian GP in a Chevron F.Atlantic.

#25 eldougo

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 10:23

[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]And of course the Austrian GP was a sports car race between 65-9 - 917s round the Oesterreichring in '69... mmmmmmm ;)

Pete i found this report of the GP.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#26 billthekat

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 01:58

The Canadian GP was run from 1961 until 1966 for sports cars.

The "I United States Grand Prix" was run in 1958 at Riverside for sports cars (part of the USAC Road Racing Championship) and the USGP was run in 1984 & 1985 as part of the CART series at the Meadowlands.

For that matter, the first GP de l'ACF wasn't first run as an "F1" event....

#27 Frank S

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 02:26

.
.
The 1958 and 1959 Riverside programs can be reached
from the bottom row of thumbnails on T H I S P A G E
.
.

#28 ray b

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:42

indy 500
while not F-1 they gave WDC points up to the late 50's

#29 petefenelon

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 09:53

Originally posted by ray b
indy 500
while not F-1 they gave WDC points up to the late 50's


But it was never a Grand Prix!

#30 Martin Krejci

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:57

"Grand Prix CSSR" at Brno 1988 was for sportscars (part of Group C WSPC).

#31 billthekat

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 12:14

Originally posted by petefenelon
But it was never a Grand Prix!


So might disagree with that since one does find coverage of the "Grand Prix of Indianapolis" in the 1938 Official Bulletins of the AAA Contest Board. However, that is also perhaps irrelevant to most here since it is not within the framework that has been established for such things as a "grand prix."

As an aside, I have always been fascinated by how Alec Ulmann did things and how the 1959 Sebring event was the "II USGP," while the 1959 Riverside event was also the "USGP" -- with the notation (Sports Cars) -- and perhaps the actual "II USGP."

#32 scheivlak

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 13:09

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eldougo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by petefenelon
[B]And of course the Austrian GP was a sports car race between 65-9 - 917s round the Oesterreichring in '69... mmmmmmm ;)

Pete i found this report of the GP.

Posted Image
[/QUOTE]
Maybe not every Austrian likes the opening sentence of that report: "And during the first meeting of this tricky German circuit"..... ;)

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 21:14

Originally posted by billthekat
So might disagree with that since one does find coverage of the "Grand Prix of Indianapolis" in the 1938 Official Bulletins of the AAA Contest Board. However, that is also perhaps irrelevant to most here since it is not within the framework that has been established for such things as a "grand prix."

As an aside, I have always been fascinated by how Alec Ulmann did things and how the 1959 Sebring event was the "II USGP," while the 1959 Riverside event was also the "USGP" -- with the notation (Sports Cars) -- and perhaps the actual "II USGP."


I don't know about that...

To me, it's not half as surprising as your earlier revelation...

.....and the USGP was run in 1984 & 1985 as part of the CART series at the Meadowlands.



#34 Falcadore

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 02:24

Recently came across mention of a Phillippines Grand Prix. Really?

#35 DogEarred

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:28

Recently came across mention of a Phillippines Grand Prix. Really?


2 or 3 years ago, about a dozen 'Formula Ford type' school cars were expoted there from a company in the UK.

So there must be a track there. That's all it takes..

#36 Falcadore

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 07:44

2 or 3 years ago, about a dozen 'Formula Ford type' school cars were expoted there from a company in the UK.

So there must be a track there. That's all it takes..


This was from the 1970s, Selangor, Singapore FPacific/Atlantic era. No idea who won anything. And possibly Indonesian Grands Prix in 1975, 1988 (or 83 possibly with Australian Formula 2 involved), and a 1995 Malaysian GP for FHolden that there is very little detail about.

South East Asian region racing is quite the secret I've been finding.

Edited by Falcadore, 14 September 2012 - 07:46.


#37 HistoryFan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:37

which non F1 national Grands Prix are still existing today? New Zealand Grand Prix (Formula Toyota)
and?

#38 Falcadore

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:02

which non F1 national Grands Prix are still existing today? New Zealand Grand Prix (Formula Toyota)
and?


Just Macau. By FIA edict. Sadly.

Be a great leg-up particularly in emerging motorsport nations to have a Grand Prix at some category below F1 I would have thought.

#39 nicanary

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 13:35

Just Macau. By FIA edict. Sadly.

Be a great leg-up particularly in emerging motorsport nations to have a Grand Prix at some category below F1 I would have thought.


So does this mean that BCE bought the rights to call races a Grand Prix? That effectively means he bought the French language. Or is it solely an FIA thing, and that BCE/CVC had nowt to do with the decision? I had no idea that this had happened - it's like saying you can't call a marathon that very thing unless you have permission from the mayor of Marathon.


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#40 Rob G

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 17:31

So does this mean that BCE bought the rights to call races a Grand Prix? That effectively means he bought the French language. Or is it solely an FIA thing, and that BCE/CVC had nowt to do with the decision? I had no idea that this had happened - it's like saying you can't call a marathon that very thing unless you have permission from the mayor of Marathon.


There are lots of non-F1 Grand Prix races. The Indycar schedule is full of them. They just don't have a nation attached to the name.

#41 nicanary

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:23

There are lots of non-F1 Grand Prix races. The Indycar schedule is full of them. They just don't have a nation attached to the name.


Sorry, misunderstood the rationale. I suppose the FIA are just protecting the "insinuation" of the title Grand Prix - that it belongs to them and the CVC circus.


#42 Falcadore

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:13

There are lots of non-F1 Grand Prix races. The Indycar schedule is full of them. They just don't have a nation attached to the name.


Sure, but that's outside the scope of the original question. It is odd though that despite many many years of racing Indy cars, Champ Cars and CART at various venues in Mexico, including at Hermanos Rodriguez, the event was never called the Mexican Grand Prix.

Edited by Falcadore, 17 September 2012 - 09:24.


#43 Falcadore

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:18

So does this mean that BCE bought the rights to call races a Grand Prix? That effectively means he bought the French language. Or is it solely an FIA thing, and that BCE/CVC had nowt to do with the decision? I had no idea that this had happened - it's like saying you can't call a marathon that very thing unless you have permission from the mayor of Marathon.


It's an FIA thing. They just aren't approving anyone using the "Grand Prix" moniker apart from the two afore mentioned exceptions (because of long-running history). This isn't new by the way, this is at least 15+ years old. By way of example, the high profile Formula 3 event held in South Korea about a decade ago the Lewis Hamilton was one of a few of its winners was called the Korea Super Prix. The 1995 Malaysian Grand Prix is the most recent example I can find of the term being used outside of F1, Macau and New Zealand.

As late as the 1980s Grand Prix still had a wide variety of uses, the old Brno touring car steet race was known at one point as the Czechoslovakian Grand Prix.

Edited by Falcadore, 17 September 2012 - 09:21.


#44 BRG

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:11

So if we call it the Gran Premio de Argentina or the Grosser Preiss von Österreich, that will be alright?

Edited by BRG, 17 September 2012 - 11:11.


#45 Falcadore

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:24

So if we call it the Gran Premio de Argentina or the Grosser Preiss von Österreich, that will be alright?


I have no idea. But the information the New Zealand Grand Prix organisers was putting out conveyed they were proud of their status and that no-one else was getting it or going to.

Personally I think the FIA have people who can speak German and/or Spanish. Even if only so the French speakers can put them in their place when needed.  ;)