65 replies to this topic

[JohnB]

Hmmmm....

 

Look at photo of Fangio's car after start of GP Sanremo:

http://i68.servimg.c...04/sanrem11.jpg

Same style how the racing number drawn 

 

To my eyes this looks like a different number style again - there's no nose band and the number's not square-edged, but the number looks to be painted a lot wider in this second photo compared to the one linked to (of course they could have gone over it with a wider brush...).

 

Plus of course the radiator is partly blanked off, but I suppose that's something which could well change during practice anyway.

 

PS.  Great photo from post #44 wherever it is - hope someone works it out.

Edited by JohnB, 18 December 2015 - 22:45.

[Vitesse2]

Assuming the mystery picture of two cars is San Remo, then I wonder if Alfa Corse took along a spare car for testing, which might have been randomly numbered 3T by the organisers?

[Oneandhalf]

AAT #06/51:

 

Corriere dello Sport 30.06.1951:

 

Any ideas about Alfa Romeo 160 for GP de l'ACF'51? 

[Vitesse2]

The 160 was an abandoned 4WD project, but I don't think it was much more than an idea at that time. Maybe CdS had heard about it and put two and two together to make five?

 

http://forum.motorio...showtopic=26603

 

I don't think it was public knowledge until the late 1960s.

[Oneandhalf]

Of course Busso's AR160 (4wd, opp12, 1952...54) was the different project. 

 

What about French L'Action Automobile et Tourisme 06'51?

 

Is "160" the earlier internal factory designation (canselled later) or the imagination of journalists? As I understand they mean Sanesi's DeDion car (chassis 158.117).

Edited by Oneandhalf, 03 September 2016 - 16:23.

[Oneandhalf]

Another interesting information. Mario Chiriaci in Corriere dello Sport 18.06.1951 (article about GP Belgium) wrote: "... le nuove Alfa Romeo "160" (nuovo telaio, nuovo motore, serbatoi laterali suplementari per il carburante, ponte D.D.).   ... si erano gia date aspra battaglia e Fangio aveva sfiorato con l'Alfetta "160" i 192 km all'ora, mentre le altre Alfa, condotte da Farina e Sanesi..." 

Edited by Oneandhalf, 26 September 2016 - 15:20.

[Oneandhalf]

A few days before the inaugural race 9.03.1952 Grand Prix Ciudad de Buenos Aires on a new track Autódromo 17 de Octubre, Buenos Aires Fangio tested the track on "Alfa Romeo". Information from the brasilian newspaper Correio da Manha_06.03.1952. He showed a lap time of 2'32,4", whereas Manson with "Gordini" has shown 2'35" 2'38". Any ideas on which "Alfa Romeo"?

 

Edited by Oneandhalf, 04 December 2016 - 20:18.

[robjohn]

Fangio drove a Ferrari in the race – a two-litre supercharged 166 – and won.
He presumably tried out the new circuit in one of the three old Alfas entered by local drivers: a 12C-37, a 308 and an 8C-2900A.
Source: http://www.jmfangio....p1952baires.htm.
The text is in Spanish but there's a results list at the bottom, and one of the photos shows Bucci's 12C.
Rob

Edited by robjohn, 04 December 2016 - 23:34.

[StanBarrett2]

The 160 was an abandoned 4WD project, but I don't think it was much more than an idea at that time. 

 

 

At least one engine exists in a museum

 

Motor ran a two part feature on the project in their 17 and 24th June 1967 issues.

 

macoran

[Oneandhalf]

He presumably tried out the new circuit in one of the three old Alfas entered by local drivers: a 12C-37, a 308 and an 8C-2900A.
Rob

Thanks, Rob

I hope I have found the answer. Of course, it was not an Alfetta, but what car? Alfa Romeo 308 chassis 50017 (ex- Nasi, Canziani, Oscar Galvez). "In 1950 ACA had bought the Alfa for Juan Manuel Fangio, who, since then appeared as the owner of the car. Due to his contact with Alfa Romeo in Europe, Fangio decided not to use that car nor any other of his property when starting his international campaign" ( Bertsci, Iacona "Alfa Romeo Argentina", Whitefly, 2005).

In that race the car was hired to Adolfo Schwelm-Cruz (#20).

[robjohn]

Well traced, though it's not surprising that Fangio chose to race the two-litre s/c Ferrari rather than the old Alfa.

It, by the way, went to South America at the end of 1938, not with the 308's three-litre twin-s/c grand prix engine but an older 3.8, also s/c. Oscar Galvez had a lot of success with it from 1947 to 1949, but it was an 14-year-old car by 1952.

 

On the Tipo 160 project: One of several innovations was to have the driver's seat behind the rear axle, supposedly so that he could better feel when the rear was about to break away. A 158 or 159 was modified to test this and Sanesi drove it at Monza. He didn't enjoy it but put in surprisingly good lap times.
There's a photo at
https://s-media-cach...cd10f94f79e.jpg

 

Rob J

Edited by robjohn, 11 December 2016 - 05:26.

[Oneandhalf]

On the Tipo 160 project: One of several innovations was to have the driver's seat behind the rear axle, supposedly so that he could better feel when the rear was about to break away. A 158 or 159 was modified to test this and Sanesi drove it at Monza. He didn't enjoy it but put in surprisingly good lap times.

There's a photo at
https://s-media-cach...cd10f94f79e.jpg

 

Rob J

Do you have any evidence that this car really existed and Sanesi really tested it at Monza?

[StanBarrett2]

Do you have any evidence that this car really existed and Sanesi really tested it at Monza?

The Motor articles I mentioned above says that Sanesi came in to the pits after four laps to hear he had done a 1' 59" lap.

This piece out of an Italian magazine states the same.

 

macoran

[Tim Murray]

Here's what Giuseppe Busso, the man behind the car, actually wrote in the two-part article on the car in Motor magazine referred to by Macoran:
 

The idea was to do some serious lappery on the Monza track and experiment with the new driving position. The increased weight, the precariousness of the alterations, the inefficiency of the controls and the rather low power of the old engine would not allow any attempt on existing records. In fact the best lap that Fangio had recorded in 1951 (1m 55.3s) during the qualifying trials of the Italian Grand Prix at the wheel of one of our best 159 cars was not reached. But what resulted from the secret trials we did on October 16 and 22 [1952] was more than enough for me to continue at full speed the development of the new project and for Sanesi to regret ever since that this unconventional racing machine was never built and raced. I remember that on that day at the Monza track he settled himself in that strange-looking car with sceptical and mixed feelings.

After only four laps Sanesi stopped at the pits in a rather dispirited mood complaining bitterly that the car was practically undrivable because the gear change lash-up was quite unmanageable, the steering column was whipping like mad, the small windscreen (still in its original position) was helping to blow his goggles from his eyes and on the straights he had to drive with one hand only and keep the goggles in place with the other, the wind was pushing his head back and, to crown everything, the engine was down on power.

Imagine his surprise, then, when we told him that, notwithstanding all these hindrances, he had lapped in 1m 59s, a time that he had never supposed he could record in these conditions. From utter delusion Sanesi switched at once to the greatest elation, declaring that the car was perfectly controllable on the corners, "warning" the driver of any side movement and of the slightest skid before starting it, that in his opinion there was one and only one way to conceive a modern racing car i.e.- just like the one we had hurriedly built.

[Oneandhalf]

It is strange that I have not found anything in the italian newspapers and magazines for october 1952.

[Oneandhalf]

Please tell me what "alfettas" in which museums/collections are now stored and who owns them