98 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

Have we ever had a thread on the Lotus 12? I can't get the search facility to search on '12'.

I have just been emailed by someone who may have had one of the ones that is missing according to Theme Lotus and I may be able to add a little slice to its history.

Allen

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Have we ever had a thread on the Lotus 12? I can't get the search facility to search on '12'.

I have just been emailed by someone who may have had one of the ones that is missing according to Theme Lotus and I may be able to add a little slice to its history.

Allen

Could it be Chassis 360? It has never been seen since it was stolen from a private collector's lock-up garage (early 90s?). It had a distinctive twin plug cylinder head, and there was once a rumour that it was in Holland.

[David Beard]

The location of 361 is also unkown. It was owned by Albert Gay in 1959, who also seemed to dissappear....

[Allen Brown]

I think I'm talking about 355 but as my copy of Theme Lotus is 29 years old, I was hoping someone would have an update!

Allen

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I think I'm talking about 355 but as my copy of Theme Lotus is 29 years old, I was hoping someone would have an update!

Allen

355

Dennis Taylor, Stutz Paisted, then various Americans culminating in John Streets. Gained Lola rear suspension at one stage. To Alan Baillie in UK by 1999.

Can probably add more when I've phoned a friend....

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by David Beard


355

Dennis Taylor, Stutz Paisted, then various Americans culminating in John Streets. Gained Lola rear suspension at one stage. To Alan Baillie in UK by 1999.

Can probably add more when I've phoned a friend....

Was Stutz Paisted the first US owner? The guy who emailed me had a front-engined Lotus in Chicago in 1960 and that seemed to fit the history of 355 going to Chicago c1961. What do you know of 355 around this period?

Thanks

Allen

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Was Stutz Paisted the first US owner? The guy who emailed me had a front-engined Lotus in Chicago in 1960 and that seemed to fit the history of 355 going to Chicago c1961. What do you know of 355 around this period?

Thanks

Allen

The info I have is that Stutz Paisted was an American in Europe with the USAF in 1961.

Are you sure you aren't talking about a Lotus 16, two of which ended up in the States via Chicago around that time?

[Allen Brown]

Could be I suppose. I'd just thought that a 16 was too new to have a Alfa engine plugged into it for US libre as early as 1960.

I see 367 going to Chicago 1961. Any idea who "Vogue Motor Imports" were? Is this car now established?

What was the other 16 around Chicago in 1960?

Thanks

Allen

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Could be I suppose. I'd just thought that a 16 was too new to have a Alfa engine plugged into it for US libre as early as 1960.

I see 367 going to Chicago 1961. Any idea who "Vogue Motor Imports" were? Is this car now established?

What was the other 16 around Chicago in 1960?

Thanks

Allen

I thought this would happen: I didn't mean to divert this to a Lotus 16 thread! I can answer all of those questions, but I will PM or E Mail you.

Back to the Lotus 12?

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by David Beard


355

Dennis Taylor, Stutz Paisted, then various Americans culminating in John Streets. Gained Lola rear suspension at one stage. To Alan Baillie in UK by 1999.

Can probably add more when I've phoned a friend....

John Streets owned 355 in Redwood City California for many years. I had a deal with John to drive it at the Monterey Historics but of course it never materialised and I had lost contact with John. The car was quite complete and original I seem to recall. I never understood why the Lotus 12 took so long to get into Historic racing. John also had a Lotus 19 in pieces plus numerous other interesting cars including a Staride 500 that used a bomb nose cone for the bodywork!
It was John who brought my attention to "The Sound of Speed" and provided me with a video of it.

[Allen Brown]

OK - it looks like it's a Lotus 16. Not a 12 at all. So the whole subject of this thread is now wrong.

Allen will now go and stand in the corner ...

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
OK - it looks like it's a Lotus 16. Not a 12 at all. So the whole subject of this thread is now wrong.

Allen will now go and stand in the corner ...

Hey, no! Let's do some 12 stuff. Cliff Allison almost won the first GP for Lotus in one. Only needed another lap....

[Charles Helps]

and they make great Christmas Day toys ...Jenks in Hampshire 1957. It's been mentioned before but I do love that story

[David Birchall]

Anyone have any theories as to why no Lotus 12s have been seen in historic racing? They would seem to be competitive.

[David McKinney]

They are seen, but as none ran with a 2.5 engine in period they are not allowed to now, and are not really competitive with the 2.5 Coopers and Lotus 16s

[Barry Boor]

Interesting reply, David, but hang on - not competitive? So what? I thought the owners of Historic racing cars ran them for pleasure, not to win!!!

Apart from a few hotshoes like Stretton, Sytner etc etc etc.

[Coogar]

It's a long time since I've seen a Lotus 12 - apart from the one at Donington, but I owned one once.
It had come to N.Ireland at some point in the early 50s, or possibly even earlier, and in its latter years here had raced as a Ford Special with 105E engine and a Dauphine gearbox. By the time it came to me however, (1971), both those items had vanished and there was simply a chassis (no plate), body, suspension, radiator and steering wheel ! All in surprisingly good nick though......
I paid £20 for it !
The awful reality that I would never be able to afford a Climax engine or source a 'queerbox' dawned a few months later, and I advertised it in Autosport, eventually selling it for £100 !
I really thought I'd done well on that one.........
The purchaser was, I believe, Mike Gue, who was then in London and racing an Elva Courier.
Does anybody know what might have become of it ?
Or, for that matter, where it came from in the first place ?

[karlcars]

The American's name is Stutz Plaisted.

The 12 I knew a bit about was bought by Steve Wilder, who intended to run it in the US GP at Sebring in 1959, but it didn't arrive in time. He later crashed it heavily at Lime Rock, I think. You could ask him about it at sfwilder@alum.mit.edu.

One problem in running these in original form would, I think, be the Lotus "queerbox" with which they were equipped.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by karlcars
The American's name is Stutz Plaisted.

The 12 I knew a bit about was bought by Steve Wilder, who intended to run it in the US GP at Sebring in 1959, but it didn't arrive in time. He later crashed it heavily at Lime Rock, I think. You could ask him about it at sfwilder@alum.mit.edu.

One problem in running these in original form would, I think, be the Lotus "queerbox" with which they were equipped.

Plaisted sounds more likely than Paisted, yes Karl. I think a typo has been passed onto me.

The Steve Wilder car was 359, I understand, originally raced by Ivor Bueb. When my phone-a friend responds, I'm sure I will be able to help with your car, Coogar.

[David McKinney]

While we're waiting, I believe two Lotus 12s went to Ireland, 352, which was used by Denis Kingham, and 358, Hector Graham's (also driven by Bill Reid). I would suggest 358 is the less likely candidate for subesquent Coogar ownership, because (a) it had been rebuilt by Tony Marsh as the Motus and I don't think even had a Lotus chassis by then, and (b) it was back in England by 1963. The other car, 352, doesn't seem to have crossed t'water again until the late 1970s

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney
While we're waiting, I believe two Lotus 12s went to Ireland, 352, which was used by Denis Kingham, and 358, Hector Graham's (also driven by Bill Reid). I would suggest 358 is the less likely candidate for subesquent Coogar ownership, because (a) it had been rebuilt by Tony Marsh as the Motus and I don't think even had a Lotus chassis by then, and (b) it was back in England by 1963. The other car, 352, doesn't seem to have crossed t'water again until the late 1970s

Just now, I can only offer the fact that 357 was once run with a Ford engine...

[Coogar]

Ah....That's interesting, since it was Denis Kinghan who told me about the car in the first place, although he never mentioned that he'd owned it previously !
I acquired it from a living legend by the name of Tom Megrath, but it had previously been raced by his pal Mike Weiniger over here.
Denis Kinghan - now no longer with us sadly - was a habitual buyer and seller of racing cars and had several interesting ones, some of them renamed as 'Clidens' - for CLI(max)DEN(is).
Among them were the (or one of the) Halselec(s) and an FJ Condor - front engined, 1100 Climax powered - which also passed through my hands, although by then it was in unfixable condition - not to mention a 1500cc Lola Mk 1 which was, as I recall, badly damaged at Dunboyne. Later there was the ex-Hawkins F2 Alexis and the only long-chassis Crossle 12F built.
But I'm wandering. Do we (that is to say, you) know what history that particular Lotus 12 had prior to its Irish adventure ? And what is it doing now....?
I just want to know what I missed.....
As you will have seen from my earlier post, my commercial acumen is somewhat lacking !
Richard

[David McKinney]

AFAIK Lotus 12 #352 was one of the original Team Lotus F2 cars, raced by Keith Hall and Cliff Allison in 1957 and Graham Hill in 1958. It then passed through the hands several private owners, though if any of them raced it, it wasn't much. I believe Ken Moore might however have used it in British hillclimbs in 1964. Denis Kinghan first ran it in 1965.
By 1978 Bill Friend in England was reported to have acquired it, and it was raced in historic events in the 1990s by Roger Friend, and more recently by Peter Harris. It was in Bonhams' Goodwood auction last June, but I don't know if it sold.
BTW, thanks for straightening me out on the spelling of Denis Kinghan's name. I actually wrote 'Kinghan', then thought, that can't be right, so changed it to 'Kingham'. As somone said on another thread - Borrocks!

[Ray Bell]

They didn't all have the queerbox...

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
They didn't all have the queerbox...

No, one had a wooden mock-up

[Ray Bell]

I know not about that...

But I do know about the Magnette box.

[ron-c]

Hi Everyone from a very long time lurker of these parts , and please excuse what is more than likely to some a very simple question. What is so unusual or different about the gearbox that brought about the name queerbox?


Thanks,

Ron.

[Patrick Fletcher]

I guess this is common knowledge but was a 12 [Tadgell] not cut into two bits and packed into an EP9 and flown from the UK to OZ at the same time as a cut into two parts Cooper [Miller] flown over in a similar aircraft. Blackey was very dark about the welds on the Cooper when he saw it a year later. The 12 with an aircraft engine and now joined back up again was burnt out after a big crash. It does however seem to have a new life now. I do not know if it has a gaybox or a Magnette nor should it matter as it is a new car.

[Ray Bell]

Didn't it run for a time with the Climax? I mean before the aircraft engine had been fitted? Indeed, in Graham's rundown on the entries for the 1960 Australian Grand Prix it says that the Lycoming engine was fitted 'where the broken Climax had been.'

There was some salvage, it seems, from the fire... maybe Graham can recount with more knowledge and accuracy, but a brake disc and caliper was, I think, involved. And the car was 'recreated' around these, using original factory drawings etc.

But it always had, to my knowledge, the Magnette gearbox.

The 'queerbox'... to answer ron-c's question, was a positive-stop type gearbox (ie. a motorcycle-style change... forward for up and back for down, you must go through all the gears each way) made by ZF for Lotus. It was a transaxle and it was a devil to set up, some found.

[llmaurice]

The wooden gearbox was all we had for the introduction of the 12 at Earls Court !

[David Birchall]

355 still had it's "Gaybox" when I was trying to buy the car off John Streets in the early eighties. I recall he sent it to someone in England to use as a pattern for other Louts 12s-I don't recall who it was though.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by llmaurice
The wooden gearbox was all we had for the introduction of the 12 at Earls Court !

Ilmaurice - do tell much, much more about your involvement and your recollections....

DCN

[David Beard]

Clive Chapman is intending to restore the wooden queerboxed Lotus 12 show car…its frame was on show at Stoneleigh last year, less the box and de dion axle.



The car was always recorded as 350. More recently it has been accused of being 301, based on chassis plate evidence. However, I believe that number has also been applied to an Eleven.



Clive and TNFers…

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by ron-c
Hi Everyone from a very long time lurker of these parts , and please excuse what is more than likely to some a very simple question. What is so unusual or different about the gearbox that brought about the name queerbox?


Thanks,

Ron.

Try this post from another thread 1959 Lotus queerbox drawing - if I read David Beard's post correctly it's from a 1959 Lotus 16.

I can see that a Renault Dauphine gearbox/transaxle might be a suitable replacement with the lower powered Ford engine (Coogar's earlier post) but there must be some sort of additional differential housing involved to go with the Magnette box in Graham Howard's Australian car?

[Ray Bell]

I believe it's the ubiquitous A-Series BMC... though it might have been one of the larger models...

I see that Graham's online at the moment, perhaps he can tell us more?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Patrick Fletcher
.....I do not know if it has a gaybox or a Magnette nor should it matter as it is a new car.

I'm drawn back to this comment...

Whether there was a 'new car' created or it was a 're-creation' or a rebuild of an existing car, the fact remains that one of the Lotus 12s left the factory equipped with something other than the queerbox.

Was it the only one?

[David Birchall]

Ray, it wouldn't have been an 'A' series box surely they are not strong enough for a FPF? MGA 'boxes were fitted to Lotus 15s and close ratio sets were available but even these were marginal I believe.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David Birchall
Ray, it wouldn't have been an 'A' series box surely they are not strong enough for a FPF? MGA 'boxes were fitted to Lotus 15s and close ratio sets were available but even these were marginal I believe.

No, the gearbox was a B-series... the MG Magnette with a close ratio gearset I have no doubt...

It was the differential I was saying might have been A-series.

[ron-c]

Thank you Ray for the explanation


Cheers,

Ron.

[Graham Howard]

The Lotus 12 known in Australia as the Sabakat was chassis 351, the car shown on test in various 1957pre-season photographs in the UK motoring press and subsequently used in a few UK races before being parked. By the time Ern Tadgell bought it it had been converted from de Dion to strut rear suspension. It always seemed to me to have been a lash-up to demonstrate Lotus had a car, while they waited for the intended gearboxes to arrive, and the conversion was not only very simple but used a lot of known Lotus hardware.
FPF to BMC B had already been done with some sports Lotuses, the only difference with a 12 was a dural sandwich plate which bolted into the chassis (the drawing specified four Austin 7 wheel nuts) as a diaphragm/rear engine mount. A Magnette case was not obligatory, it just had to be a BMC B-series case with remote control plus the centreline clutch throwout system, because with the wide bellhousing there was buggerall heel space for a slave cylinder and linkage on the side. For the Sabakat recreation, Tony Caldersmith made a scattershield which lived INSIDE the bellhousing, because there would not have been room for it outside.
Mike Ryves built up the gearbox from a busted c/r gearset plus new spares, some of which I bought from Warwick Rae (Lancer racer, ex BMC), plus a case I bought from a wrecker (in all, probably much the same approach Lotus would have taken!). Mike took great care with the shimming, and it was a sensual delight to operate. I have had the great privelege of driving Mike Bennett's original 12, which has the Lotus five-speed box, and I was shocked at the difference. Mike's 12 on Dunlops handled better than the Sabakat recreation on Michelins, but I told Mike I would out-race him every time because I would always know which gear I was in - with the Lotus box you could never tell if you had got a gear, or merely hurt your wrist.
There was a short tailshaft which went under the seat and into the bottom of a vertical three-gear transfer case which was the only major non-stock item. The case had a front and rear half with lots of elegant little webs, and contained three straight-cut gears. As drawn it was 1:1, and I do not think it was ever meant to be a ratio-change device. Also as drawn it had an oil filler hole, but no drain hole, no breather and no way other than butchery to extract tight-fitting bearings. This was the most troublesome part of the whole car, as might have been expected from something which was only ever meant to be a short-term fix.
The gear at the top of the train was splined down the centre and operated to replace the companion flange of a BMC C-series differential, which was carried in a Lotus Mk9-10 diff case. This case could be machined to take C-series or smaller. The Mk 9 I had, XPE-6, used tiny pre-war MG or Morris diffs and you could see the cast-in bosses on a larger radius for machining out to C-series. Anyway, the point is that this too was familiar Lotus territory. Unlike (say) A-series, a C-series had a bolted-in pinion oil seal, and the four bolts were used to attach the transfer case. For the Sabakat recreation we used a steel nose piece (out of my Six, 4.3:1 so previous driver Don Johnson could do the Warwick Farm short circuit in third gear) and Dave Mawer re-tapped the bolt holes to use slightly larger bolts.
We could never find a photograph to show how the rear calipers were mounted. The Mk 9 (which had discs) used abt 3/8" dural plate which also carried a stub-shaft bearing, but this would have moved the calipers, and hence also the discs, too far out and the discs would have fouled the bottom rear frame tubes. Mike Ryves made brackets from abt 1/8" steel plate and we had maybe 3/16" clearance. After a race these frame tubes would have the paint burned black, altho' I never saw evidence the discs had actually touched. I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus had used Mk9-10 alloy caliper carriers and just flattened the frame tubes as required. It was that sort of job. Likewise there were very detailed drawings for the transfer case, because it had to be made outside, but the revised tubing and bracketry would have been done on the fly and there were no drawings of that.
This thread began with the question, why no 12s in Historic racing. I agree - tiny frontal area, tiny weight. One of my dreams was (still is) to sit in Allison's 12, with that thumping 2.2 FPF, as it jumped up the hill after Eau Rouge. Timed over this section it was faster than any other car there that year, as well as pulling 167 mph on Masta straight (when I would not want to be sitting in it). My little car, with a down-on-power 1500 FPF, was just effortless up the Amaroo hill. No of course I don't miss it.
As for Allison's chances of winning at Spa had the race been a lap longer - not in a Lotus 12, something would have gone wrong. Lovely little cars though.
And while I have been writing this marathon, petefenelon's recommended nasa software has 99% downloaded. Off to look at pictures.
Graham Howard

[Ray Bell]

Graham, the only BMC diffs I recall having a bolt-on arrangement on the nose were the A40 and the A70... and as you know, I became very familiar with C-series diffs. None of them that I've ever seen had that.

Do you recall the ratio used?

[Graham Howard]

Ray, Don Johnson told me the diff was from an A70 ute, was very hard to find and had been chosen because of its particular ratio. I had no trouble replacing it with an alloy-nosepiece diff bought from Bill Warren's which I was told was C-series, tho it was also from something commercial and was from memory abt 5.7:1. Worth nearly two seconds a lap at Amaroo, all between the wall and the top of the hill! Whatever, Johnson had had no trouble fitting the A70 item, and I had no difficulty fitting its replacement, the important dimensions were the same.
Graham Howard

[Ray Bell]

Sounds like early J-van...

I know it's off topic, but there were some variations in these things and the fact that I don't recall seeing one doesn't mean there wasn't one. The earliest A30s, for instance, had an oddball housing on the centre, so why not A70 utes or J-vans?

I guess old Bill isn't around any more should anyone need a replacement?

[M bennett]

Only two Lotus 12 cars ran in F1 in 1958, Chassis 357 Cliff Allison's regular car (known as the "Old Banger") and Chassis 353 Graham Hills regular car. amazingly both these cars survived, I own 353 here in Australia, 357 is currently nearing a restoration completion in the UK. These two cars were used in Lotus' and Graham and Cliffs first GP at Monaco 1958. Cliff Allison wrote a first hand account of their first GP in Sports Car and Lotus Owner in the June 1958 issue. Graham Betty, Cliff and Mabel drove down to Monaco in a Vauxhall Victor.
Chassis 353 came to Australia via Frank Gardner, who bought it from John Fisher (driver Bruce Halford). I have had the pleasure of meeting every owner, or their direct decendent, since the car left Tottenham Lane. In the past 10 years I have collected such a mass of information, that I am nearing completion of an approx 200 page, owner by owner, race by race, history of the car. When we stripped the paint we found the "N0 2" centre popped on all the body panels on the lower edges, the car used by Denis Jenkinson on his Christmas Day 1957 jaunt on public roads starting from The Phoenix hotel at Hartney Wintney had the trade plate chit filled out by ACBC as F2/2 so it appears we have the car used on that day.
I have masses of photographs, including the car on display in the menswear department of Grace Bros store in Sydney in 1960. I have a superb series of pictures of Team Gardner touring the UK with his friend/mentor Len Deaton using the ex Team Lotus/Cliff Allison Bedford bus.
I have one picture from Ted Walker showing Frank driving the car at a 1960 MMSC meeting at Silverstone. What does MMSC stand for? Can anyone enlighten me?
During the research of this old car I met John Fisher, Bruce Halford, Frank Gardner, Rik Deaton (Len's son), Joe Hills, Kylee Conlon (David Conlon's daughter) and David Holyoake. These are all previous owners. I also spent two days with Willie Griffiths, the Team Lotus chief Mechanic in 1958. .
The Christmas day run was a story all by itself, the only people there on the day were Bill Boddy, ACBC, Jenks, Merv Theriault (Lotus mechanic in the UK,from Canada) and Alan Southern. We found four prints of the event in the LAT library.
I have my queerbox working quite well, one weekend I did some 30 laps at Philip Island and only missed one gear,. MIKE BENNETT

[Charles Helps]

Welcome to TNF, Mike. David Beard told me you might be joining us. I love it when mechanic's or fabricator's stamps turn up on chassis and panels - a bit like mason's marks on old stone work.

I've not heard of MMSC but there was a club who certainly used Silverstone in the fifties with the initials MMEC - it stood for Midland Motor Enthusiasts Club. Sometimes Ted's writing goes a bit wiggly on the back of the photos (but he has got a few to write on)

[Ted Walker]

Thanks for that Charles !!! It is in fact MMEC as you say.

[David Beard]

Mike: I knew if this thread didn’t drag you in, nothing would!

Mike’s 12, folks….

[David Beard]

And a queer selection of bits.....

[Barry Boor]

A 12 with yellow wobbly webs? Is this correct?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
A 12 with yellow wobbly webs? Is this correct?

The very first one, the 1956 Motor Show car, had yellow wheels. I take your point though: Mike's car has the number 26, as carried by 353 on its, Grahams Hill's, and Lotus' GP debut at Monaco in 1958. It had dark grey (natural mag alloy?) wheels on that occasion.