86 replies to this topic

[fines]

I don't think this is about "European" terms or not - after all, the Blouch/Sherman/Ewing nonsense was started in the USofA, wasn't it? I'm just trying to find a way to refer to cars by names that make sense. "John Player Special" is perfectly acceptable to me, as is "Blue Crown Spark Plug", "Bowes Seal Fast" or "Burd Piston Ring" - but I'm certainly not going to say Arie Luyendijk won Indy in a "Wavephore/Sprint PCS/Provimi/Nortel"! There is a fine line, and I'm quite confident I have found a good handle on it.

[brickyard]

I've made it! That's my best Thread until now...So many debate here in only 3 days

I'm back after two days off, and I'm really surprised with it.

I also don't want to drag this on forever, but in my personnal opinion (and that's the way I have my data sorted), If a "Navarro" is a Watson 64, but was known at it's time as a Navarro, and if it's the best way for us to imediately recognize that particular car, Why changed the name? Simply put a note on you records saying that this car was a Watson 64 with some "improvements" (or not) but which gained the right to be recognized as a new entity. (As the Antares/Manta, or the Penske/ATS in F1 for instance).

But that's a personnal opinion.

So, let me answer some Allen's questions:

quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
LOLA
T80 (1965) 3 cars
T90/T92 (1966/67) 6 cars
T150/T152/T153/T154 (1968-69) 7 cars
T270 (1972) 5 cars
T500 (1978) ??
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Did these figures come from Lola records? The T150-series numbers seem plausible but could include an extra tub used to repair a crashed car. The T270 numbers also seem high as I can only see evidence of three distinct entities: the STP and Gene White cars at Indy and the second STP car that Pollard raced at Ontario. But Pollard's crash at Indy required a replacement tub so the figure of 5 T270s may be monocoques rather than complete cars.

I've found this in an article from a french magazine, which I only have one page with a table with the Lola production numbers until 1975.


quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
VOLLSTEDT
10 cars: 1959: 1; 1963: 1; 1965: 1; 1966: 2; 1967: 2; 1971: 1; 1973: 1; 1977: 1
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Are these from the Vollstedt book? That book seems to lose its thread after 1973 and I'm not sure how the three cars built after 1972 square with Hungness. One of the 1972/73/74 cars must have been rebuilt later to the same shape as the 1977 car.

I read this in an ancient TNF thread, that I cannot find for now.


quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
KINGFISH
1973, 3 cars
I don't know how many cars were made in the other years, but the first Rear Engined one was built in 1970 for Art Pollard. Also some Dirt Cars from 1969 on (in fact Al Unser won all the Dirt races of 1970 in one of this cars for the Parnelli team)
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Three? I can only see two from the Hungness yearbooks and the entry lists. I have a 1973 media guide that says one Kingfish was built in 1970, one in 1971 and two in 1972.

Somewhere on the Net, some years ago (can't find the link)

quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
DRAGON
2 cars in 1976 are in fact built by Grant King and latter raced as KINGFISH's
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Did they later race as Kingfish? Note that the pair of 1973 cars made a comeback in 1979 with Chevy engines but shared the same 97 and 98 numbers in practice which has confused reports.

They apeared as Kingfish at some Phil Harms reports. Only the cars photos could identify them, as the designs were different from the earlier Kingfish's.

quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
LIGHTNING
1 car in 1976 also known as HOPKINS which I supose we could erase from the list as the car was latter called LIGHTNING and I only saw the Hopkins name in the late Phil Harms docs.
7 cars in 1977.
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What's your source for the 7 in 1977? It looks right but I'd be interested to know how 'official' it is.

From the book "Indycars of the 70's" by Ludvigsen.


quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
GERHARDT
44 cars built ??
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What's your source for this? There seem to have been very many rear-engined Gerhardts but I'd be surprised if the figure is as high as 44.

From here .

[billthekat]

A quick summary of the Kurtis cars:

Kurtis Champ Car Types and chassis notes 

from Gordon White (Indianapolis Racing Cars of Frank Kurtis)



“NNN” = retroactive chassis identifier

‘3nn’ or ‘7nn’ are chassis numbers applied by the constructor



Miller-Kurtis 32/40 – 1 / “001” – 1932 Miller FWD as Falstaff Special



Kurtis 45 – 1 / “003” – Novi Governor Special



Kurtis 46 – 1 / “002” – Offenhauser Special 



Kurtis 47 – 2 / “004” – Novi Governor Mobil Special and “007” – Bowes Special



Kurtis 48 – 2 / “005”  - Pat Clancy Special and “006” – Kennedy Tank Special



KK1000 – 1 / ‘316’



Kurtis 49 – ‘325’ and ‘327’



KK2000 – 13 / ‘317’ thru ‘324,’ and 49 “008,” 49 “009,” ‘326,’ ‘328,’ and 50 “010”



Kurtis 50 – “010” and ‘329’



KK3000 – 8 / ‘330’ thru ‘337’



KK4000 – 16 / 



Kurtis 52 – 2 / ‘347’ and ‘350’



KK500 – 1 



KK500A – 6 



KK500B – 7 



KK500C – 9 



KK500D – 6 



Kurtis 55 – 1 / ‘385’



KK500E – 1 



KK500F – 2 



KK500G – 2 



KK500G2 – 14 



KK500H – 1 



KK500/57 – 1 



KK500J – 2 



KK500J2 – 3 



KK500K – 2 



KK500L – 1

KURTIS-KRAFT
Some Roadsters from 1952, also some Dirt Cars.
KK500F (1956) 2 cars for the Novis Team
KK2000 (??) 13 Dirt cars (in fact this cars were a little older by the time period we're talking about but where used in the Dirt races in the period)
KK3000 (1948) 5 cars (as above)
KK500 ??
KK500A ??
KK500B (1953) 7 cars
KK500C (1954) 10 cars
KK500D ??
KK500E ??
KK500G ??
KK500H ??
KK500J ??

I thought about adding the chassis numbers and other information, but I stopped since I am not certain I am comfortable with the apparent direction this effort is heading.

[brickyard]

I thought about adding the chassis numbers and other information, but I stopped since I am not certain I am comfortable with the apparent direction this effort is heading.

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by fines
I don't want to drag this on forever, but Art, how do you come to say the chassis of the first Novi (or "Bowes") was correctly called a "Miller-Ford"? That is another misnomer, like "Lancia-Ferrari" - look at the Indy entry lists, these cars were called simply "Ford V8" when new. I agree, we shouldn't take every sponsor's name as gospel and talk about the "Hy-Gain" finishing first from the "Commander Motor Home" - these were standard customer cars from McLaren and AAR, after all - but all the same I dislike "made-up" names when there's no need for them: Why call a Sumar a "Blouch" - that's like calling a Williams FW07 a "Head" or a Tyrrell Mk1 a "Gardner": Nonsense! Also, the Clancy 6-wheeler is a Clancy and not a "Ewing", "Kurtis" or "Bowen" or whatever. And the Leitenberger is not a "Silnes/Sherman", the Navarro is not a "Watson/AMC", and the Jack Adams is certainly not a "Bryant/Allison"!

Fines,

Very simple: Harry Armenius Miller got those chassis done, and Ford built the basic engines. The cars may well have been called "Ford V8's" in racing programs, and the name of the car in the entry blanks, BUT, those old AAA entry forms (and the race stats as well), also had spaces for reporting the make of the engine, # of cylinders, and the maker of the chassis. I identified the chassis for the '41 Bowes Seal Fast/Winfield V8 entry for exactly what it was, an old Miller-Ford chassis (BTW, while Harry Miller honcho'd the build, Henry Ford I fronted the money to make them happen, so even in those chassis, there is a Ford connection. Ford was not only the sponsor, but also the car owner, witness who wound up with those cars after the debacle in the '35 Indianapolis 500. All the Miller-Fords wound up, locked up in a warehouse in Dearborn.

Art

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by fines
I don't want to drag this on forever, but Art, how do you come to say the chassis of the first Novi (or "Bowes") was correctly called a "Miller-Ford"? That is another misnomer, like "Lancia-Ferrari" - look at the Indy entry lists, these cars were called simply "Ford V8" when new. I agree, we shouldn't take every sponsor's name as gospel and talk about the "Hy-Gain" finishing first from the "Commander Motor Home" - these were standard customer cars from McLaren and AAR, after all - but all the same I dislike "made-up" names when there's no need for them: Why call a Sumar a "Blouch" - that's like calling a Williams FW07 a "Head" or a Tyrrell Mk1 a "Gardner": Nonsense! Also, the Clancy 6-wheeler is a Clancy and not a "Ewing", "Kurtis" or "Bowen" or whatever. And the Leitenberger is not a "Silnes/Sherman", the Navarro is not a "Watson/AMC", and the Jack Adams is certainly not a "Bryant/Allison"!

Fines,

Sorry to "rain on your parade of thinking" here, but Barney Navarro did NOT build the chassis for his AMC-engined Indianapolis car, A J Watson did--way back for the 1964 500. Proof positive? Barney Navarro has called that chassis exactly what it was, in numerous articles about him, that being a "Watson".

Secondary proof: I was in Bob Higman's race shop on Indiana SR 28, between Romney and Clarks Hill IN (or about 10 miles straight south of Lafayette) when Navarro and one of his crewmen showed up, with cash in hand, wanting to buy the second '64 Watson rear engine chassis, after their's had crashed into the wall in practice. Higman didn't sell the entire chassis, just the right suspension components.

Art

[Allen Brown]

Great debate guys!

Art - I love the debate-settling "I was there when..." anecdote below. Can you tell us more about the history of these two 1964 Watsons? Which one did Navarro have and where had the other one been iin the meantime? There were just two weren't there?

Thanks

Allen

[fines]

Art, maybe it's indeed the big pond between us - I wasn't saying that the Navarro wasn't built by Watson, or the 1935 Ford by Miller. Let's leave it at that, this discussion leads nowhere... :

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by brickyard
I also don't want to drag this on forever, but in my personnal opinion (and that's the way I have my data sorted), If a "Navarro" is a Watson 64, but was known at it's time as a Navarro, and if it's the best way for us to imediately recognize that particular car, Why changed the name? Simply put a note on you records saying that this car was a Watson 64 with some "improvements" (or not) but which gained the right to be recognized as a new entity. (As the Antares/Manta, or the Penske/ATS in F1 for instance).

But that's a personnal opinion.

The Penske PC4/ATS HS1 comparison is a good one. I do respect that change of identity, as I do the Hesketh 308C/Williams FW05 one so I should respect the Watson/Navarro one too. For now, I'll leave it was "Watson 64-ATS Rambler Navarro" as that gives it consistency with other entries but I will add this to my list of things to revisit.

Originally posted by brickyard
So, let me answer some Allen's questions:

quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
LIGHTNING
1 car in 1976 also known as HOPKINS which I supose we could erase from the list as the car was latter called LIGHTNING and I only saw the Hopkins name in the late Phil Harms docs.
7 cars in 1977.
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What's your source for the 7 in 1977? It looks right but I'd be interested to know how 'official' it is.

From the book "Indycars of the 70's" by Ludvigsen.

I have that book! On p120 it says 7 cars turned up to Indy in 1977 but that's not necessarily the production figure. Bobby Unser's 1978 Lightning was not at Indy in 1977 but may well have been built in 1977.

Originally posted by brickyard
quote:
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Originally posted by brickyard
GERHARDT
44 cars built ??
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What's your source for this? There seem to have been very many rear-engined Gerhardts but I'd be surprised if the figure is as high as 44.

From here .

I could only see the intro to this article without giving my credit card number but Kevin Gerhardt gets mentioned so I've dropped him an email.

Gerr has convinced me that 44 may not be unrealistic. He point to the 10 cars built for the 1966 Indy 500 alone. If 1967 and 1968 production were at similar levels, 44 is easily achieved.

Allen

[Buford]

I'm not sure the car was known at the time as a Navarro. I recall it being known as a Watson Rambler. I remember when Les Scott put into the bank at Mosport. I think that was its last race. But I recall at Indy where it ran pretty good, at least at times in practice, it was called a Watson chassis.

One interesting thing about the Belond AP car shown above. It won the race two years in a row and then finished dead last on the third try. Definately not a case of third time being the charm!

[thatguy01]

Unless there's an established reason for doing so, the McGee-Carman really should be credited solely to Dick Carman.

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Great debate guys!

Art - I love the debate-settling "I was there when..." anecdote below. Can you tell us more about the history of these two 1964 Watsons? Which one did Navarro have and where had the other one been iin the meantime? There were just two weren't there?

Thanks

Allen

Allen,

I believe that Bob Higman told me then that the chassis he had (from which he sold suspension parts to Barney Navarro) had been Rodger Ward's 1964 entry, which would mean, if correct, that Navarro was working with Len Sutton's car. Yes, Watson built just the two tube-frame rear engine cars for '64, as far as I know.

Art

[Arthur Anderson]

I would wonder a bit whether there were 44 Gerhardt chassis built over those years though. Of course, Gerhardt did build a lot of chassis in the late 1960's, but I question how many show up as truly new cars, versus cars that were run over a 2-3 year period. Considering that the Gerhardt chassis was considered at the time to be somewhat an "also-ran" car, and not an almost "sure winner", in the manner of say, an Eagle, I don't seem to recall any first-line teams using them.

Just curious.

Art

[gbl]

Let's talk about the Parnelli VPJ6. The A-Version only ran once in 1975 as far as I know, though I've never seen the car.
Unser and Ongais had the VPJ6B for 1976 and 1977. For 1978 it gets a little bit messy. If you compare the pictures from 1977 and 1978, you can see the differences in the bodywork (front, roll bar, engine cover).

1977, B-type: http://www.indy500.c...=13349&size=med
1979, C-type: http://www.indy500.c...=13391&size=med

The 1978 car looks like Foyt's 1979 car and has to be the VPJC. My sources tell me that Ongais had a B-type for 1978 and 1979 (including the Porsche-car). Maybe the tube was an older one, but the bodywork was definately an C-type. For 1978 I have to add that Ongais used a B-type for the 3 road races (at least).
The #21 American Racing car of 1978 was also a C-type and ended up with Foyt. I still don't
understand why it had that paintjob, did the sponsor came back for one race in 1978 or did Unser already had this car for some races in 1977?

[Buford]

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson


Allen,

I believe that Bob Higman told me then that the chassis he had (from which he sold suspension parts to Barney Navarro) had been Rodger Ward's 1964 entry, which would mean, if correct, that Navarro was working with Len Sutton's car. Yes, Watson built just the two tube-frame rear engine cars for '64, as far as I know.

Art

At the time press reports said the Rambler was in Rodger Ward's 1964 car.

[T54]

Many of these Indianapolis cars are covered in one of the newer -and better books- about Indianapolis in the 60s, called: Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard.

I am sorry to have to partly disagree on this one. While there are good pictures and good general information, I have picked quite a lot of factual errors in this book, like as an average, one per page...
Regards,

T54

[paulhooft]

Many of these Indianapolis cars are covered in one of the newer -and better books- about Indianapolis in the 60s, called: Indy's Wildest Decade by Alex Gabbard.
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I am sorry to have to partly disagree on this one. While there are good pictures and good general information, I have picked quite a lot of factual errors in this book, like as an average, one per page...
Regards,

T54


I am always ready to learn, please give me all 191!

Paul

[doc540]

Here's a repost of portion of a post made earlier regarding the '57-'58 Belong Special according to Howard Gilbert:


"George Salih was a foreman at Meyer/Drake when he and Howard built the first laydown Offy car to run in 1957. They lived a block apart and built the car at night in Salih's garage in Whittier, CA.

They hocked and mortgaged everything they had, even their homes to build the car. The engine was built from Meyer/Drake parts that were "seconds" with only cosmetic flaws. According to Howard it was the only engine to leave Meyer/Drake on credit. (After winning the Indy 500 they paid what they owed on the engine.)

Epperly formed the aluminum body. He didn't "construct" the car. And in payment for his metal shaping, he was given some kind of "interest" in the car in both '57 and '58.

Belond had a muffler business and gave them only $2500 to sponsor the car which they used for expenses to tow the car from Whittier, CA. to Indy. Firestone didn't pitch in a dime. They got the gearbox and wheels from Ted Halibrand. The whole deal was on a shoestring budget.

Another interesting sidelight concerns the spark plugs. Seems that Champion didn't offer any help with the car, so they used an English sparkplug maker, Lodge. The Belond was the only car in the 1957 field NOT to use Champions.
Champion contracted with Collier's magazine to print an ad prior to the race naming them as winners. Howard said it cost a small fortune when Champion had to retract the ad.

Howard and Salih overcame the engineering hurdle of how to properly oil the engine and did so well with it they ran the same engine for three years, even bringing it to Monza. However, the next year at Indy other teams were trying the laydown concept with less success and oiling the track so frequently USAC approached Salih and Howard to help with the other teams. Howard didn't say whether or not they did. Somehow I doubt it.

They qualified somewhere around 12th (13th, in fact) and were surprised to actually win the race. Once they'd distributed the $200,000 in prize money, all the bills were paid but hardly anything was left.

They returned in 1958 with the same car and won the Indy 500 two years in a row.

I asked him where the "laydown" idea came from and who actually engineered it. He said he and Salih figured out how to build the car in that format and lowering the center of gravity was their primary goal, not aerodynamics.

He said a couple of inline truck engines were produced commercially in the laydown configuration with one of them being built in Italy(?)."

[paulhooft]

The source for the 8 Lightnings including a mystery Laydown version:

http://www.donedmund.../indy/index.htm
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Great side, nice models too!

Paul

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by doc540
Here's a repost of portion of a post made earlier regarding the '57-'58 Belong Special according to Howard Gilbert:

I asked him where the "laydown" idea came from and who actually engineered it. He said he and Salih figured out how to build the car in that format and lowering the center of gravity was their primary goal, not aerodynamics.

He said a couple of inline truck engines were produced commercially in the laydown configuration with one of them being built in Italy(?)."

Actually,

George Salih needed have looked any farther than across town, to Frank Kurtis' shop, as Kurtis pretty much designed and built the laydown configuration for the 1952 Cummins Diesel Special, which needed all the help it could get with weight distribution and a lower CG, as any inline diesel truck engine is both heavy and tall.

Art

[Allen Brown]

We haven't yet mentioned the TURNER or the PORTER. There seems to have been some connection as, according to Phil Harms, Jack Turner drives a 'Porter' for Rose Truck Lines while Lloyd Ruby is driving a 'Turner' for the same team in 1962. The Turner may have been a dirt car and the Porter a roadster.

In 1963, Ruby and Rutherford drive 'Porter' and 'Turner' cars for Racing Associates then in 1964 Rutherford drives a 'Turner' with Bardahl backing. Late in 1964, Rutherford drives a 'Porter' rear-engined car at Sacramento on 25 Oct and then a 'Turner' rear-engined car at Phoenix on 22 Nov. Is this a simple screw up in Harms' data? Wallen makes no mention of Rutherford's car at Sacramento being anything but a normal dirt car and specifically calls his Phoenix mount 'the Porter-built rear-engine Offy'.

Neither creation appears again - at least not under those names. At Phoenix in March 1965, Rutherford's very next race, he drives a 'Philipp' RE for Racing Associates. That car only appears once more under that name.

So are Turner, Porter and Philipp all linked? I'm inclined to believe the 'Turner RE' is a red herring and that Rutherford just drove a dirt car but what was that Porter?

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Just been searching on TrackForum and have found more jigsaw pieces but not sure I've yet got a picture.

I have discovered that Herb Porter "was" Racing Associates with Ebb Rose (of Rose Truck Lines). And I already know that Racing Associates' chief mechanic in 1965 was Bob "Rocky" Philipp. So was the 1965 'Philipp' RE that we have already discussed here (it appears to have become Larry Cannon's #47 Autotron Photoelectric at Rafaela in 1971) related to the 1964 'Porter' RE? It seems a remarkable coincidence if it wasn't.

Allen

[Herbert]

Rocky Philipps and Herb Porter were both Chief Mechanics at Racing Associates in 1961 and 62. They built together a sidewinder roadster (a Lesovsky copy) for 1961, which was driven at Indy by Ebb Rose, a millionaire from Texas. Rose drove the car again 1962, in 1963 he practiced with it but then switched to a Bignotti-Foyt car. The roadster was taken over by Bob Veith.

Ebb Rose did tried to qualify a Denny Moore built car in 1960 for John Zink, but he was bumped from the field. Rose then went to Racing Associates which he bought from Art Lathrop in 1962. The cars entered in that year for unknown reasons under Herb Porter's name, but in the following years again as Racing Associates.

Bob "Rocky" Philip was already at Racing Associates in the late Fifties whereas Herb Porter was Chief Mechanic at Roger Wolcott`s team from 1957 - 1959 . I´m not sure about 1960.

I´m not sure if this of any help for you, Allen. I hope so.

[Allen Brown]

All good background. Thanks Herbert.

But does anyone know about these particular cars?

[Herbert]

BTW, Ebb Rose and Rutherford also practised at Indy in 1964 with a rear engined Offy-powered car. It had the number 10, I'm not sure who built the car because sadly Jack Fox mentiones no Chaasis names with the cars which did not start at Indy. Phil Harms does not mention it at all.

[Herbert]

Rocky Phillip was Chief Mechanic at Jim Robbins Team at Indy in 1964. But their entry #33 with Bob Christie as the driver failed to qualify. So Philipp was then not a member of Racing Associates any more. Perhaps he built a rear engined together with Porter before leaving.

[Herbert]

I just checked it, but Rocky Philipp left Racing Associates already after 1962. In 1963 he replaced Jud Phillips as Chief Mechanic at Bruce Homeyer's Konstant Hot team.

[Allen Brown]

How interesting. Thanks for digging that out.

Michael Ferner originally identified this car as:

Originally posted by fines
The "Autotron" (sometimes called "Need-a-Sponsor" ) was also used in '70, in my opinion the old Racing Associates #24 of 1965 (not '64 - sorry, my mistake) used by Rutherford before he signed up with Leader Cards and Watson.

... a car built by RA chief mechanic Bob "Rocky" Philipp. It had a Meyer-Drake powerplant and was only used at Phoenix that year, afaik.

If Rocky Philipp was no longer RA chief mechanic when the rear-engine car could have been built, I'm now very confused.

Allen

[fines]

To clear up a few things: Racing Associates entered Champ Car racing with sponsorship from "D-A Lubricant" in 1955. The "Associates" were Art Lathrop and Coleman Glover and I believe their initial chief mechanic was Danny Quella. They ran an old Kurtis-Kraft roadster and a new Kuzma dirt car in a promising rookie season, then signed Indy winner/National Champ/Sprint Champ Bob Sweikert for 1956. It was too good to be true, and Sweikert was killed only a few races into the season.

Soon Johnny Thompson became their main driver, and Rocky Philipp chief wrench. After Roger Wolcott's death in 1959, Herb Porter was added to the line up, chief mech for the second car. So in 1960, both Philipp and Porter worked for RA. As already related, Porter then took over the operation with help from Ebb Rose. This is where it gets foggy for me.

About the cars: The Porter in Phil's database appears to be the 1961 Offy roadster built by Philipp/Porter (or whomever), it was originally known as "Meyer Speedway", then "Rose Truck Lines" before it disappeared into other hands (Skip Hedrick and who knows who).

The Turner was an Offy dirt car built by Harry Turner for Lee Elkins in 1953 ("Kalamazoo", "McNamara"). In 1959, Ebb Rose bought it for Lloyd Ruby and others to drive, but the old nail was tired and hardly ever qualified. Then, in 1962 Rose (now with Racing Assoc.) had a Chevy-powered dirt car, also a "Turner" according to Harms - maybe still the old chassis??? This was highly successful for a number of years, really threatening the Offy monopol and putting the Chevy V8 squarely on the map (of course, it had been successful in Sprints before). Boyce Holt bought the car in 1967 and ran it well into the seventies.

As for the rear-engined car that RA produced some time in 1964 or 1965, this is still a big puzzle for me!

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by TheStranger


Didn't Mickey also build a car in 1964? That car (the Sears Allstate Special) is more well known for being the last ride of Dave MacDonald.

Hello all. Certainly did not want to start an additional thread so please let me ride this one.

Can anyone provide more information on the Mickey Thompson Sears Allstate Special cars from the 1964 Indy? Perhaps chassis drawings, etc.

Also, is the second car from the event (six total laps) driven by Eddie Johnson still with us?

One final thought.

Have read that these cars were infact designed to go the 500 miles without the need for additional fuel. Is this an accurate statement and if so was the tire technology in place to actually run the entire distance?

Henry

[T54]

I am always ready to learn, please give me all 191!

Paul,
Sorry for the delay, I have been a bit busy but will get back to you soon with a sample analysis...

T54

[edmcd]

Can anyone on this thread provide information on how, why and when Indy and Americam racing cars were called by the names of their sponsors, or as specials, rather than the chassis manufacturer? How was it that sponsorship came about so much earlier on American cars than European racers?
Thanks
Ed McDonough

[Terry Walker]

I don't know exactly when, but the why is clearer.

USA was a much richer country than Italy, UK, France etc; more money from outside the specialised car manufacturing world to be spent publicising business through racing cars

USA was less stuffy about that money, about "professionals" and "amateurs", and happily allowed advertising on cars from early days (prohibited in European racing until the late 60s)

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
I don't know exactly when, but the why is clearer.

USA was a much richer country than Italy, UK, France etc; more money from outside the specialised car manufacturing world to be spent publicising business through racing cars

USA was less stuffy about that money, about "professionals" and "amateurs", and happily allowed advertising on cars from early days (prohibited in European racing until the late 60s)

the specials started at least in early 20's. But I think that another arguement should be mentioned. Maybe there were less wealtrhy privateers racing in Europe but within europe the involvement of factories within racing was much stronger. In the 20's you had several comapnies building race cars in Europe while all the options that American drivers had was buying Millers and/or Duesies or built themselves something else with help of some companiess like Frontenac.


henri

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by edmcd
Can anyone on this thread provide information on how, why and when Indy and Americam racing cars were called by the names of their sponsors, or as specials, rather than the chassis manufacturer? How was it that sponsorship came about so much earlier on American cars than European racers?
Thanks
Ed McDonough

Ed, try here Naming of Indy Cars for an idea of how far back that practice goes.

As for the sponsorship issue, the American simply took a very different view of racing and how it operated than those in Europe.

[HistoryFan]

any details about Rascar? Who was behind that?

[Michael Ferner]

Eldon Rasmussen, a Canadian living in Indianapolis.