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1911 Indy 500 qualifying


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#1 Darren Galpin

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 08:25

In the Phil Harms data on motorsport.com, he says that qualfiying was "based upon demonstrated 75mph main stretch speed". What exactly does this mean? In addition, in the data I have previously used on my website, which was obtained in 1998 or so from the Indianapolis MS website, it states that the qualifying/start position was based on when the entry was received. Which is correct? Does anyone know of anything which points either way?

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#2 gerrit stevens

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:17

The starting position was based on entry order. But before a car was allowed to start it had to qualify which means; a car (driver) had to meet a minimum speed during "qualifying".
Qualifying at Indy does mean; to qualify for the race, not necessarily the starting order.
At least that is how I interpret it.

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#3 seruga

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:53

International 500 Mile Sweepstakes
Indianapolis Motor Speedway
2.5 Mile Brick Oval
200 Laps/500 Miles
May 30, 1911

Finish Start Driver Car # Sponsor/Name Chassis Engine Laps Status Points

1 28 Ray Harroun 32 Marmon Wasp Marmon Marmon 200 6:42:08 74.59 1,000*
1 -- Cyrus Patschke 32 Marmon Marmon Marmon 32 Relieved Harroun 71-102
2 29 Ralph Mulford 33 Lozier Lozier Lozier 200 6:43:51 74.29 520*
3 25 David Bruce-Brown 28 Fiat Fiat Fiat 200 6:52:29 72.73 270*
4 11 Spencer Wishart 11 Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes 200 6:52:57 72.65 140*
5 27 Joe Dawson 31 Marmon Marmon Marmon 200 6:54:34 72.34 90*
6 2 Ralph DePalma 2 Simplex Simplex Simplex 200 7:02:02 71.13 60*
7 18 Charles Merz 20 National National National 200 7:06:20 70.37 50*
8 12 William Turner 12 Amplex Amplex Amplex 200 7:15:56 68.82 40*
9 13 Fred Belcher 15 Knox Knox Knox 200 7:17:09 68.63 35*
10 22 Harry Cobe 25 Jackson Jackson Jackson 200 7:21:50 67.90 30*
11 10 Gil Anderson 10 Stutz Stutz Wisconsin 200 7:22:55 67.73
12 32 Hughie Hughes 36 Mercer Mercer Mercer 200 7:23:32 67.63
13 26 Lee Frayer 30 Firestone-Columbus Firestone-Columbus Firestone-Columbus 197 Flagged
14 19 Howdy Wilcox 21 National National National 194 Flagged
15 33 Charles Bigelow 37 Mercer Mercer Mercer 194 Flagged
16 3 Harry Endicott 3 Interstate Interstate Interstate 192 Flagged
17 36 Howard Hall 41 Velie Velie Velie 190 Flagged
18 40 Willie Knipper 46 Benz Benz Benz 188 Flagged
19 39 Bob Burman 45 Benz Benz Benz 183 Flagged
20 34 Ralph Beardsley 38 Simplex Simplex Simplex 178 Flagged
21 16 Eddie Hearne 18 Fiat Fiat Fiat 175 Flagged
22 6 Frank Fox 6 Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford 162 Flagged
23 24 Ernest Delaney 27 Cutting Cutting Cutting 160 Flagged
24 23 Jack Tower 26 Jackson Jackson Jackson 145 Flagged
25 20 Bert Adams 23 McFarland McFarland McFarland 142 Flagged
26 37 William Endicott 42 Cole Cole Cole 104 Flagged
27 4 John Aitken 4 National National National 125 Broken connecting rod
28 9 Will Jones 9 Case Case Case 122 Steering
29 1 Lewis Strang 1 Case Case Case 109 Broken steer knuckle
30 7 Harry Knight 7 Westcott Westcott Westcott 90 Wrecked mainstretch
31 8 Joe Jagersberger 8 Case Case Case 87 Wrecked mainstretch
32 31 Herbert Lytle 35 Apperson Apperson Apperson 82 Wrecked pits
33 17 Harry Grant 19 Alco Alco Alco 51 Bearing
34 15 Charles Basle 17 Buick Buick Buick 46 Broken crankshaft
35 5 Louis Disbrow 5 Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford 45 Wrecked
36 14 Arthur Chevrolet 16 Buick Buick Buick 30 Broken crankshaft
37 35 Caleb Bragg 39 Fiat Fiat Fiat 24 Wrecked in pits
38 21 Fred Ellis 24 Jackson Jackson Jackson 22 Carburetor trouble
39 30 Ted Tetzlaff 34 Lozier Lozier Lozier 20 Wrecked
40 38 Arthur Greiner 44 Amplex Amplex Amplex 12 Wrecked

-- -- Fred Clemens 6 Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford Pope-Hartford X Relieved Fox
-- -- John Coffey 15 Knox Knox Knox X Relieved Belcher
-- -- W. H. Frey 37 Mercer Mercer Mercer X Relieved C. Bigelow
-- -- Frank Goode 38 Simplex Simplex Simplex X Relieved Bardsley
-- -- John Jenkins 42 Cole Cole Cole X Relieved W. Endicott
-- -- Walter Jones 12 Amplex Amplex Amplex X Relieved Turner
-- -- Dave Murphy 11 Mercedes Mercedes Mercedes X Relieved Wishart
-- -- Mel Marquette 23 McFarland McFarland McFarland X Relieved Adams
-- -- Len Zengel 20 National National National X Relieved Merz
-- -- Cyrus Patschke 31 Marmon Marmon Marmon X Relieved Dawson
-- -- Edward Parker 18 Fiat Fiat Fiat X Relieved Hearne
-- -- Elmer Ray 1 Case Case Wisc X Relieved Strang
-- -- E. H. Sherwood 37 Mercer Mercer Mercer X Relieved C. Bigelow
-- -- Louis Schwitzer 25 Jackson Jackson Jackson X Relieved Cobe
-- -- Robert Evans 26 Jackson Jackson Jackson X Relieved Tower
-- -- Eddie Rickenbacker 30 Firestone-Columbus Firestone-Columbus Firestone-Columbus X Relieved Frayer
-- -- Rupert Jeffkins 41 Velie Velie Velie X Relieved H. Hall
-- -- Fred Clemens 22 McFarland McFarland McFarland -- Did not qualify
-- -- Rupert Jeffkins X Cole Cole Cole -- Did not qualify
-- -- Louis Edmunds 43 Cole Cole Cole -- Did not qualify
-- -- Arthur Gibbons 40 Velie Velie Velie -- Withdrew
-- -- Frank Gelnaw 14 Falcar Falcar Falcar -- Did not qualify
-- -- Rupert Jeffkins 40 Velie Velie Velie -- Withdrew
-- -- Harold Van Gorder 29 Lozier Lozier Lozier -- Did not qualify
-- -- Billy Pearce 13 Falcar Falcar Falcar -- Did not qualify


Based usac

#4 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 10:20

And such qualifying would not be unprecedented - there are several races from the 1900s in Europe where a car had to show some minimum speed in trials before being allowed to race.

#5 billthekat

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 14:30

Guys,

It was not unusual at the time for a "target" or minimum speed to be picked which had to be achieved in order for a car to "qualify" for the race. The actual starting positions would be arranged by entry date or ballots. The starter of the event had among his many duties selecting that "target" speed. It was often as much a matter of practicality as science. Even with starting positions began to be determined by times set in time trials, once again, a minimum speed was set for "qualifying" for the starting grid.

All this is a blinding flash of the obvious, but some times we simply overlook that minor factor in loking at things from a distance. I am always encouraged when I see folks willing to expand their views from merely gazing at the numbers and other data and sorting out the context within which all this occurred.

One of the problems dealing with much of what happened during this era is that consistency was a virtue and not necessarily a reality.

Postscript: A personal prejudice of mine are these faceless, lifeless, lines of data that are seemingly the lifeblood of many here. I accept that using databases and such to capture and handle data is a Good Idea (doh!), but there is a subtle but very distinct difference between being a racing statistican and a racing historian. I am always delighted to see folks begin to slide over from one side to the other.

As an additional aside, just exactly what does this convey?

1 28 Ray Harroun 32 Marmon Wasp Marmon Marmon 200 6:42:08 74.59 1,000*
1 -- Cyrus Patschke 32 Marmon Marmon Marmon 32 Relieved Harroun 71-102

In this format, really not much, plus it is a bear to read. As some know, I look at things a bit differently and record it as such:

1st Ray Harroun & Cyrus Patschke
No. 32, Marmon Car Company, Marmon Special
Marmon Wasp
6 hr 42 min 08 sec, 74.59 mph
(Patschke drove in relief from lap 71 to lap 102)

True, this is a challenge to change from a database into this format, but I always strive to have the entrant information and other relevant information in the results section.

#6 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 15:18

Just looking at the data there is 1 interesting name in the DNQs - Rupert Jeffkins, who memorably rode as mechanic to Ralph dePalma in 1913. Of course riding mechanic was a good apprenticeship for driving; another mechanic for (and relative of?) dePalma went on to win Indy as a driver.

#7 billthekat

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 16:01

Those who did not qualify or drove in relief is an interesting one to say the least. Even in 1911 the IMS could draw a crowd of drivers.

There is an error with (at least) one of the names listed: Eddie "Rickenbacher" is the correct way to record his name since that was the name on his AAA license.

This is an endlessly fascinating era of racing and I am always puzzled why so few pay it any attention.

#8 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 16:13

Originally posted by billthekat
This is an endlessly fascinating era of racing and I am always puzzled why so few pay it any attention.

Too unfamiliar and difficult to pigeonhole? Most of the names are unfamiliar from a "Grand Prix"-centric point of view. Some of the drivers were famous in American racing generally - Dawson going on to win the next year, Eddie Hearne and Johnny Aitken being amongst the top dogs of the day &c - but whenever I look at the list of "Championship" race winners I glaze over as they seem never to have done anything else. Difficult for me at any rate to contextualize. I guess proving your point, Don?

And I wonder if Charles Bigelow was an ancestor of Tom?

#9 billthekat

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:06

Originally posted by ensign14
Too unfamiliar and difficult to pigeonhole? Most of the names are unfamiliar from a "Grand Prix"-centric point of view. Some of the drivers were famous in American racing generally - Dawson going on to win the next year, Eddie Hearne and Johnny Aitken being amongst the top dogs of the day &c - but whenever I look at the list of "Championship" race winners I glaze over as they seem never to have done anything else. Difficult for me at any rate to contextualize. I guess proving your point, Don?

And I wonder if Charles Bigelow was an ancestor of Tom?


Most would give similar reponses, I suppose. Bear in mind I generally have the same eyes-glazing-over experience whenever I look at a "modern" F1 grid, usually having not a clue who they are much less being able to conjure up a mental picture of the drivers.

On the other hand, I am very comfortable with the context of the period in question, having taught courses covering this era. In addition, thanks particularly to Phil Harms, Gordon White, and several others, I have been able to work with some of the contemporary materials which is always a help. Reading the Bulletins from the AAA Contest Board and their other correspondence certainly helps see items that would otherwise not be readily apparent. I don't spent anywhere as much effort working in this period as I would like, but I just find it very, very interesting and truly fascinating.

One of the interesting things about taking the 1916 season apart and putting it back together is the constant amazement as to how different things were, yet in the many ways how similar they were to contemporary times. You know this, but there is always this odd item or so which really doe not relate to today's world at all. It was a truly different world and few are willing to make the effort to delve into it to the extent necessary to be at ease with it.

Oh, there were never "mechanics" accompanying the drivers at this time, but "mechanicians."

#10 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:10

Originally posted by billthekat

Oh, there were never "mechanics" accompanying the drivers at this time, but "mechanicians."

There was a magazine called "English Mechanic", I always thought this related to a hypothetical person but I guess that it was actually an adjective then? They told you how to build your own car in weekly parts, apparently 2 still survive, 100 years on...

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:20

Certainly a noun, anyway

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:24

Originally posted by billthekat
There is an error with (at least) one of the names listed: Eddie "Rickenbacher" is the correct way to record his name since that was the name on his AAA license.

In 1911?
I always understood he changed his name to Rickenbacker about the time of the Great War, but was never sure if it started out as Richenbacher, Rickenbacher or Richenbacker
My question being, I guess, was the AAA licence spelling an interim spelling, or was that his name from birth?

#13 FLB

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:28

Originally posted by ensign14
Of course riding mechanic was a good apprenticeship for driving; another mechanic for (and relative of?) dePalma went on to win Indy as a driver.


Peter de Paolo, his nephew.

#14 karlcars

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 17:48

His birth name was Rickenbacher. He took the initiative to change the spelling "on impulse" during his wartime service in signing a letter to a friend. His friend told the wire services so he and his family members were obliged to use the new spelling thereafter.

#15 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 18:37

Eddie was a true hero, he came to Europe before the rest of the States to wage war on the Hun. There was a tale in his autobiog that he was locked up in Liverpool on disembarkation because of fears he was a German spy because of his Germanic name.

One thing that gets overlooked in his stellar list of accomplishments is that he was a top-line driver, picking up a couple of big "Champ Car" wins just before the outbreak. A definite candidate for Indy victory had it not been for the war.

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 19:08

Originally posted by karlcars
His birth name was Rickenbacher. He took the initiative to change the spelling "on impulse" during his wartime service in signing a letter to a friend. His friend told the wire services so he and his family members were obliged to use the new spelling thereafter.

Thanks, Karl :up:

#17 billthekat

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 20:08

Thank you, Karl.

At one point the family name apparently was "Richenbacher," but when Edward V. was born in Columbus in 1890, it had become "Rickenbacher."

Often forgotten is that while Eddie "Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker" is the only winner of an event on the National Championship Trail (and the winner of first event in the annual drivers' championship, to boot) to also earn the Medal of Honor, the latter was actually awarded until 1931, 13 years after the action in which he earned the decoration was fought.

#18 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 21:26

Originally posted by ensign14
[B
And I wonder if Charles Bigelow was an ancestor of Tom? [/B]



No, he wasn't.

I've done a little bit of insight to some of these fellows which will be coming up in the next month or so, i think, including Jeffkins, Greiner, Zengel et al. Maybe that, in its small way, will open up a bit of interest in the era, if only because it is scarced looked at now. Then again, maybe not. :

#19 ensign14

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 21:39

Greiner was the guy who became mentally ill, wasn't he?

I'll certainly look forward to the details. Funny to think that there could still, somewhere, be someone alive who was at that first 500. Let alone the earlier brick races.

One would hope generally that the increase of people searching for ancestors online would help provide some details of these chaps, or even memorabilia/diaries that could shed light on what it was REALLY like then.

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#20 Arthur Anderson

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 03:02

Originally posted by ensign14
Just looking at the data there is 1 interesting name in the DNQs - Rupert Jeffkins, who memorably rode as mechanic to Ralph dePalma in 1913. Of course riding mechanic was a good apprenticeship for driving; another mechanic for (and relative of?) dePalma went on to win Indy as a driver.


Yes,

Peter DePaolo rode as a mechanic for Ralph DePalma, his uncle, then went on to become a top driver in his own right, winning Indy exactly 10 years after his uncle.

Art

#21 fines

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 18:57

Originally posted by billthekat
1st Ray Harroun & Cyrus Patschke
No. 32, Marmon Car Company, Marmon Special
Marmon Wasp
6 hr 42 min 08 sec, 74.59 mph
(Patschke drove in relief from lap 71 to lap 102)

Marmon Car Company, what's that? Any connections to Nordyke & Marmon?

#22 Lemnpiper

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 19:03

Being that there still 3 survivors from the Titanic still alive as of this date, i would reckon that some of the "youngins" at Indianapolis on that date are still alive. Wether they can remember much of the events may be another matter depending on how old they were back then on that date.


Paul

#23 billthekat

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 19:06

Michael, I just pulled it out of the blue, having a serious brainlapse as to whether it was "Nordyke & Marmon" or "Marmon & Nordyke" or exactly what and just called it "Marmon Car Company" for the sake of putting something in its place, since I was away from my "stuff" when I did it. Not an excuse, but simply an explanation due to an increasing inability to often conjure up such stuff as I once did.... Sorry.

#24 fines

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 20:46

:lol: No offence meant nor taken, Don! It happens all the time, and I was just having a little fun with someone else's lapse when usually I am the one on the receiving end. You know, as I grow older I find it increasingly annoying to get up from my chair and pick up a book to make sure my memory's not failing me, instead of typing what's right on my mind in the hope that a) my internal hard drive is still up to scratch, or b) nobody will notice it anyway. But TNF's got a reputation to hold up!;)

#25 robert dick

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 10:04

From "Motor Age", May 25, 1911 :
"Elimination trials in which cars entered must show a speed of 75 miles an hour, will be held from 9 a. m. to 1 p. m. Friday, May 26."

It was not specified if these 75 mph had to be achieved on the main stretch only, or over a whole lap. I think it was a whole lap.

So we have :
- starting position according to entry order,
- additional qualifying, every car faster than 75 mph was allowed to start.

#26 fines

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 21:07

"Everybody" knows that the starting order for the first Indy 500 was determined by order of entry, right? Only it's wrong...

The first inkling that "something may not be quite as everybody thought it was" came from reading Donald Davidson's write-up in the latest "AUTOCOURSE Official History of the Indianapolis 500": he tells us that Marmon requested the IMS to "hold back" entries for the two Marmons until twenty more entries would be received to come up with numbers 31 and 32, as a marketing coup to advertise its flagship Model 32 passenger car. Sounds reasonable, but how could Marmon have known that so many entries would be received at all? And wasn't there a penalty on late entries as well?

So I looked into the dates of when the actual entries were filed. It's a bit hard to find definite answers in the daily newspapers, as information apparently only trickled from track management. The first two entries were placed in October of 1910, barely a month after the announcement of the event, then two more until the end of the year, and another two in January. February was a good month, with seventeen entries - including both Marmons!

On March 1, The Indianapolis Star published a list of entries, the first in tabulated form I could find, and it goes:

1 Case (Strang)
2 Simplex (-)
3 Inter-State (Baldwin)
4 National (Aitken)
5 Pope-Hartford (Disbrow)
6 Pope-Hartford (Fox)
7 Westcott (Knight)
8 Case (Jagersberger)
9 Case (Larsonneur)
10 Stutz (Anderson)
11 Mercedes (Wishart)
12 Amplex (Turner)
12½ Marmon (-)
14 Marmon (Dawson)

15 Knox (Belcher)
16 Buick (-)
17 Buick (-)
18 Benz (Hearne)
19 Alco (Grant)
20 National (-)
21 National (-)
22 McFarlan (-)
23 McFarlan (-)

Four days later the list has grown another six members, and on March 12 The Constitution of Atlanta (GA) lists the same with yet one more. So far, only the two Marmons stick out as "wrongly" numbered, perhaps they were just exchanged with the two FALcars? No. Entries 31 and 32 were received still in March, being two Loziers (actually three since the privately entered Marquette-Buick of Harold van Gorder was substituted by a Lozier also), and then on April 1 the two FALs and the Apperson are added to the list! I haven't been able to find a full list again until mid April, but already in the reports about Joe Dawson's test crash on April 10, his car is described as #31.

The whole effect is almost negligible, since in the end the FALs failed to start, but the Marmon entries were not, in fact, "held back", but simply assigned numbers out of sequence. Thus, the starting order was not the order of entry!

Notice also that Hearne is entered in a Benz, not a Fiat. There are numerous surprises like that which arise when one does a bit more thorough research. To be continued...

#27 fines

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 22:17

As to the qualifying procedure, The Indianapolis Star reported on Friday, May 26:

Entrants to the 500-mile International Sweepstakes race worked late last night at the Speedway preparing for the time trials at 9 o'clock this morning, to determine the starters in the race.
Every car entered to qualify must be able to make a speed of seventy-five miles an hour for a quarter of a mile. The cars will have a flying start and the timing will be done on the home stretch. The Warner horograph, in the charge of C. H. Warner, was put in place yesterday afternoon and everything is in readiness for the trials this morning. With the number of cars entered it will probably require all day to finish the trials.



#28 arttidesco

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:18

Wonder what the outcome of this race would have been if Louis Chevrolet had made a proper entry ?