231 replies to this topic

[Brian Nordby]

Hello All,
I am building a copy of the Zerex Special for a client in Seattle, Washington. I'm am looking for as much information as I can find on the Zerex Special, Cooper/Climax as Penske first raced it. I'm am especially looking for Cooper T53 frame dimensions and layout. I was directed to this site by Allen Brown of OldRacingCars.com. We have FPF engine and a Cooper Transaxle and tracings from the original body bucks. So if there is anyone out there with this info, I would sure appreciate the help.

Thanks
Brian Nordby

[Richard Neale]

We can do without any more fakes and replicas, thank you!

[T54]

I am building a copy of the Zerex Special for a client in Seattle, Washington.

Why?

[philippe charuest]

why not . as long theres no intention to sell it as the "genuine" thing . btw does the original still exist if not its even commendable

[Paul Medici]

Welcome to TNF Brian.

I can't help you with your project but I am sure someone here can.
Does the original car still exist?
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.
.
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[T54]

Yes.

[Rosemayer]

Heres a shot with the Buick engine at Mosport.

[Allen Brown]

When the word "copy" is being used very publically from the outset, I can't see why we can't help this guy.

Respected experts on historical vehicles have been involved in creating new versions of old cars - as someone on this thread can testify - and have been very honest and open about what they've done. So where's the problem? I'll be listing this on my T53 page as a copy.

The original car is assumed to exist but I haven't met anyone who has actually seen it in a long, long time.

Allen

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
When the word "copy" is being used very publically from the outset, I can't see why we can't help this guy.

Respected experts on historical vehicles have been involved in creating new versions of old cars - as someone on this thread can testify - and have been very honest and open about what they've done. So where's the problem? I'll be listing this on my T53 page as a copy.

The original car is assumed to exist but I haven't met anyone who has actually seen it in a long, long time.

Allen

Absolutely, if someone wants a car that looks like the Zerex (but ideally is a lot stiffer, one would hope!) and doesn't pretend to have the Zerex, more power to him. I've always felt that "fair copies" of "invisible" or no longer extant cars are a Good Thing, as long as there is no intent to pass off; at least it gives us a chance to see what we're missing/

[Brian Nordby]

Paul And Philippe
According to my research so far. After the original (repaired) Cooper T53 frame was widened for the two seater (rule change) version, it became too willowy. McLaren bought it from Mecom and redesigned the frame and built it much stronger. Then after racing with the Climax 2.75 FPF put in and Oldsmobile F85 and dubed it the Cooper Zerex Oldsmobile. According to Bernie King the Penske Racing Museum Curator "but after Teddy Mayer sold the car to a family on the East coast it was changed even more and then sold to the Current owners in South America, where it was raced extensively and change even more."
So to answer your question does the original still exsist? Yes and No. But I might ask, what make a car original, the body, the frame, the engine? As far as the Zerex goes all of these thing have been changed over time.
I believe that this car is a peice of racing history ( legal or not) and My Client and I are not trying to pass this car off as the original, just a copy of a still obviously very controversial Historic Race Car. So why Not?

Brian Nordby

[Bayou Bengal]

Even Jim Hall has built replicas of his Chaparrals. He used the same chassis on several different cars and the older cars thus didn't exist anymore. He built (or rebuilt) some of his cars for the Chaparral wing of The Petroleum Museum in Midland, Texas.

http://www.petroleum...parralhome.html

[Magee]

I, too, would encourage someone to make a copy of the Cooper Streamliner I raced in the 60s. In fact, looking at the Zerex reminds me of my Cooper, a centre-seat, rear-engine LSR car converted to a sports racer.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by petefenelon
.....if someone wants a car that looks like the Zerex (but ideally is a lot stiffer, one would hope!) and doesn't pretend to have the Zerex, more power to him. I've always felt that "fair copies" of "invisible" or no longer extant cars are a Good Thing, as long as there is no intent to pass off; at least it gives us a chance to see what we're missing/

Quite right...

I've been arguing this case for nigh on thirty years!

[Tom Glowacki]

Laying aside whatever the owners after McLaren have done to the car, it's gone through 3 different engines; 1.5 Climax, 2.7 Climax, 3.5 Buick, probably 2 different transmissions, 2 bodies ate least, with extensive modifications to the second, if not complete replacement, and the chassis was extensively repaired, 25% replaced I've read someplace, extensively modified to 2 seat configuration, and then possibly outright replaced by McLaren.

Whatever we could say about it should the original ever re-surface, "original" is not a word I'd use to describe it, never mind where we would be if all of the original bits survived and were put together into two "original" cars. We might want to be a bit relaxed in our discussion of this car.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by Tom Glowacki
We might want to be a bit relaxed in our discussion of this car.

I'll second that. Nothing at all wrong with an accurate re-creation as long as it isn't represented as the genuine article.

Jack

[dretceterini]

I certainly wouldn't mind an accurate recreation of the Zerex special in it's 1st configuration.

[ray b]

I like repro's at least we get to see them runing

with the extream prices of original cars, racing copys makes sence to me
and are the ONLY way I could even dream of owning one

look on model car sites for scale line drawings esp slot car sites

one posted here or in atlas race simms or on racesim [ http://forum.rscnet.org/forum.php? ]
had a lot of them, inc I think the cooper/zerex/penske

[Bob Brzezinski]

Brian,

Dick Wallen has some videos that may have footage of this car in action. Here is a link to his site:

http://www.racingcla...com/videos.html

I know that at least one, and possibly both, of the "Sports Car Classics" videos show Penske in the car. My only question would be if they feature it in its original configuration or not. Dick can probably tell you before you go through the trouble of purchasing the videos, if you're interested.

Regards,
Bob

[T54]

Even Jim Hall has built replicas of his Chaparrals. He used the same chassis on several different cars and the older cars thus didn't exist anymore. He built (or rebuilt) some of his cars for the Chaparral wing of The Petroleum Museum in Midland, Texas.

With all due respect, this is a line of manure. Jim Hall built no replica of anything and merely restored his old cars using all the original bits and pieces. ALL the old bits were kept, and I know on a very personal basis because I saw them all during my visit in 1982, long before the cars even began to be restored. I even had the opportunity to see every possible version of the 2 to 2A to 2D, 2C to 2E and 2G etc. So when you say that "the older cars did'nt exist anymore, sorry but it is an inaccurate statement. They DID and still exist, even if as parts on shelves.

As far as the Zerex, its original engine is now back in the car from which it came, the Cooper Indianapolis car, and the modified frame (and regardless of the modifications, STILL the original frame) is still around, even if very modified. The other Indy engine was blown up by Bruce McLaren himself but while fitted in a CM63 Monaco from what I gathered. Only the damaged head of that second Indy engine survives in England.
Everyone is free to build whatever they want, this is a free country. But in this case, it's a bit like building a GTO over a Datsun 240Z as done in the mid-1980's in my humble opinion.

And in which version would this be done, the original center-seat, the modified dual seats, or the McLaren-modified car? Do you have a proper C5S tranny?
Of course anyone can go to Sid Hoole, buy a perfect replica of a T53 chassis, go to Tony Mantle or Dick Crosthwaite and buy a perfect replica of 2.7 Climax (but not with the bore and stroke of the 2 special Indy engines as used in the original Zerex) as well as 58mm Weber DCOE replicas also manufactured by C&G, buy replica mag wheels, have someone fabricate a body more or less (generally less) looking like the Moline works original and play with the expensive new toy.

The point being?

[WINO]

The original Zerex [actually Zerex-Duralite] Special had five different engine configurations throughout its life:

1961 1.5 Climax when it was still a Formula One car
1962 2.7 Climax as an almost center-seater [it was the steering wheel that was actually in the center, not the seat]: Times, Pacific, Puerto Rico GPs
1963 2.7 Climax and conversion to RHD steering wheel: Marlboro, Cumberland, Pensacola
1963 2.5 Climax: Mosport Players 200
1963 2.7 Climax: Road America June Sprints, Brands Hatch, Times GP

Then it was run at Nassau 1963 with a 2 liter Climax [Augie Pabst] and the 1964 Pensacola USRRC with the same, as the MRT Special [Mecom Racing Team] for John Cannon.

Then it was sold to McLaren in 1964, who installed the 3.9 liter BOP [Oldsmobile version]

But I agree with T54, what is the point of a replica in a case where no original parts remain for its construction.


WINO.

[T54]

When Briggs Cunningham had the 1.5-liter Cooper crashed by Walt, before Penske bought it, it was not the "Zerex Special". Also Briggs sold the car without the 1.5 Climax in it.
So if you say that this Cooper T53 (not the Zerex) had 5 configurations, that would be more correct . The 2.7 Indy engine was blown up by driver Hap Sharp at the '64 Pensacola race. It is that (repaired) engine that now sits in the Cooper Indianapolis car. Most of the engine was found in one of John Mecom's warehouses, while the holed block was found in Colorado. Quincy Epperley expertly repaired the block and the engine was rebuilt by Gene Crowe with help from Steve Jennings.

There are plenty of replicas of "cult" cars out there, from a zillion Lotus 23's to Ferraris of all creed to Lola T70's to Chevrons to Brabhams to whatever could be competitive in an increasingly dollar-signs driven world of "vintage" racing. But such cars are not, as the Zerex, unique and so iconic. Making a replica of the Zerex just does not sound right to me and while I respect the right of anyone to do as they please, it will make me cringe into my deepest fiber.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by T54


Of course anyone can go to Sid Hoole, buy a perfect replica of a T53 chassis, go to Tony Mantle or Dick Crosthwaite and buy a perfect replica of 2.7 Climax (but not with the bore and stroke of the 2 special Indy engines as used in the original Zerex) as well as 58mm Weber DCOE replicas also manufactured by C&G, buy replica mag wheels, have someone fabricate a body more or less (generally less) looking like the Moline works original and play with the expensive new toy.

The point being?

It could well have been someone's dream for 40 years to drive "the Zerex" and now he's got the money to have his own car just like it.... OK, it's not the real Zerex, but if it makes the guy commissioning it happy, and it doesn't attempt to defraud anyone, who are we to rain on his parade?

Yes, you'd have more fun for a fraction of the price doing track days in an Ariel Atom, but wanting "a Zerex" and having the means to achieve it is clearly the culmination of someone's personal dream, and good luck to him.

Of course, who knows, it could be for a big-budget TV mini-series on the rise and rise of Roger Penske ;)

[T54]

But I agree with T54, what is the point of a replica in a case where no original parts remain for its construction.

Of course there ARE original parts: the whole engine with carbs sits in the Cooper Indy car today, while the Cooper C5S tranny sits in the ex-McLaren CM63...
BUT, they are not presently available, and for good reason.

This person can do anything he wants, and good luck to him, but it feels to me a little like tarting up a plumpy blonde to replicate Marilyn for a cheap movie... it is just not the same. Sorry I I feel a bit tight on this subject, but that's how I feel.

[WINO]

All this leads me to believe that the 2.7 CXlimax used in 1963 at Road America, Brands Hatch and the Times GP was not the orginal 2.7 Indy engine used earlier in its life. By then the 2.7 was readily available and if the Indy engine still had a Pensacola hole in it many years later.......

So the Zerex [excuse me...Cooper] had six different engines.

WINO

[P 4 Staff]

Hi.
Can anyone post a picture of the car in question?

Staff.

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by T54


Of course there ARE original parts:

This person can do anything he wants, and good luck to him, but it feels to me a little like tarting up a plumpy blonde to replicate Marilyn for a cheap movie... it is just not the same. Sorry I I feel a bit tight on this subject, but that's how I feel.

i wouldnt compare the ZEREX-DUPONT SPECIAL to MARILYN .IMO the ZEREX was one of the ugliest contraption ever build .on the other hand the latest version of the cooper monaco were good looking cars ;)

[WINO]

Tam' Old Racecar Site contins a shot of Penske in the now two-seater Zerex at Riverside in 1963, sandwiched by Holbert's and McDonald's King Cobras.

By the way, Hap Sharp blew the 2.7 Indy engine at Pensacola in 1963, not 1964.

WINO

[T54]

i wouldnt compare the ZEREX-DUPONT SPECIAL to MARILYN .IMO the ZEREX was one of the ugliest contraption ever build .on the other hand the latest version of the cooper monaco were good looking cars

I do and persist as I have seen much better looking women than the world's favorite plumpy blonde. Indeed Marilyn had a lot more character and on-film wit (unfortunately not in real life) than actual beauty, and so did the Zerex Cooper. Of course the Monacos were prettier, but so is my wife.

WINO you are correct of course and I typed too fast!

[Rosemayer]

P4 Staff:
Hi.
Can anyone post a picture of the car in question?

See post 7

[billthekat]

IMO the ZEREX was one of the ugliest contraption ever build (sic).

If you consider the Zerex Special "ugly," you obviously have little acquaintance with some of its contemporaries, more than few which could redefine that term.

It is always pleasant to see a warm welcome and a cheerful "glad you decided to visit us" extended to a visitor to The Nostalgia Forum.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by Brian Nordby
Hello All,
I am building a copy of the Zerex Special for a client in Seattle, Washington. I'm am looking for as much information as I can find on the Zerex Special, Cooper/Climax as Penske first raced it. I'm am especially looking for Cooper T53 frame dimensions and layout. I was directed to this site by Allen Brown of OldRacingCars.com. We have FPF engine and a Cooper Transaxle and tracings from the original body bucks. So if there is anyone out there with this info, I would sure appreciate the help.

Thanks
Brian Nordby

I can't contribute much to the research you need, but I wish you luck on the project and hope your client will enjoy the car. I well remember reading of Penske's drives in the Zerex Special in those days. It seemed to foreshadow Penske's racing future, known for efficiency, singleminded dedication, speed and a certain elegance.

Please keep us informed of your progress.

Jack

[Frank S]

Nice model calls itself "mecom-zerex special"



--
Frank S

[WINO]

Frank,

Very nice model indeed, although without digging I can't identify the event where it carried this race number. The car was red originally and did not get its Mecom livery until Pensacola 1963, where Penske and Sharp shared the car. At Pensacola and Road America the car carried Penske's favorite number 6.

Billy-the-Kat

Delighted that you are manning the hospitality desk at TNF again.

WINO

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by billthekat
If you consider the Zerex Special "ugly," you obviously have little acquaintance with some of its contemporaries, more than few which could redefine that term.

It is always pleasant to see a warm welcome and a cheerful "glad you decided to visit us" extended to a visitor to The Nostalgia Forum.

Exactly! On both points!

T54... please loosen your tie, mate. I certainly hope that this replica gets built as Penske first put it together, as that's the form in which it starred that formative year.

Let it look like the Zerex Special and parade about the tracks of North America (and elsewhere...) as a replica of that car. Let people see what it looked like in the flesh rather than in yellowing pages of Sports Car Graphic and let some few people enjoy the experience of driving the thing.

In its own way it will then present a means of preserving some part of racing history. And it will be well known to be a replica... while whatever happens to the original (goes back to a Formula 1 car?) will be up to its owner(s)...

If someone ever wants to put their money up to do something like this, they should be applauded. I want to do it with three or four Australian Specials that nobody gives a damn about, I know that's very different, but this guy wants to spend what must be some very real money.

He's not trying to pass it off as the real thing, trying to make money out of it as some might do, and he's going to get his own enjoyment from spending his money in this way.

Give the guy a break... and let's hope he joins us here and tells us about why he wants to do it and any other reminisces he might have.

[dretceterini]

At least it's not another Alfa TZ being built

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by dretceterini
At least it's not another Alfa TZ being built

[David Lawson]

This is the car in it's original guise.


Photograph from "Pro Sports Car Racing" by Dave Friedman

David

[WINO]

Race number 7. Must be the car's third outing, at Puerto Rico in 1962. The tiny passenger seat was actually hidden under the panel left of the driver, under the race number. Penske's seat was positioned a few inches to the right of the steering wheel.

WINO

[Bob Brzezinski]

The car in that configuration features pretty heavily in at least one of the Dick Wallen videos mentioned above.

[billthekat]

Delighted that you are manning the hospitality desk at TNF again.

Actually, I am a bit surprised that Stu hasn't waded into this. Although I am becoming increasingly disenchanted with the diection that TNF is heading, I still keep an eye on things, mostly out of habit. I am more than a bit irked with this particular thread because even though there might be some serious reservations as to what is being done, there is no reason to be so impolite and downright hostile right off the bat, with rude being one of many words that seems to be at my fingertips. It is one thing to disagree, but to be disagreeable is another thing. Just the way to win friends and influence people.....

As I have remarked elsewhere, it is becoming easier to spend time elsewhere and not visit here as often.

[David Birchall]

Don/Bill, I just re-read the thread and there is only one post which is (Questionably) impolite. Surely the idea of this forum is to exchange ideas AND opinions. You obviously feel different but, thats just an opinion. We are an international group with widely varied backgrounds and ideas, every contribution is valid. And yes, I personally approve of a replica being built-I just wish I had the bucks to do it....

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Richard Neale
We can do without any more fakes and replicas, thank you!

WTF???

The reason why is... the original is far from "original" and even as a evolution car (converted as per Jenks) its composition is made up of unobtainium and would be reflected in the purchase price - in all probability.

Best of luck in your reproduction Brian...

I hope this guy returns to a warmer climate here...)

This is the first time I've seen this thread and I am genuinely pissed, disgusted and disapointed.

[Cris]

Welcome Brian and good luck. Would love to see pictures as progress happens.

[Brian Nordby]

Hello All

Thank you all for giving me a very small nostalgic taste of the experience Penske himself must have faced when he first introduced the car. I'm am truly flattered by all of your all of your comments negative and possitive. This car has still got what it takes to at least rev up imaginations. Please keep them coming.

I will be trying to recreate the version of the car that Roy Gane built in Molin. So any Pictures of the single seat version would be greatly appreciated.

Brian Nordby

[Richard Neale]

T 54 ~ don't you be pursuaded to loosen that tie !! Keep up the pressure ~ Do you have the ear of the President? If so I suggest you report these 'History Terrorists' to him!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Brian Nordby
Thank you all for giving me a very small nostalgic taste of the experience Penske himself must have faced.....

Brilliant response, Brian...

Now, tell us about the plans there are for this car.

[Richard Neale]

I guess since Haymarket took control the 'Nostalgia' has gone out of this Forum?

Perhaps it should be renamed 'The Kit & Replica Forum' ???????

Where do we return our badges to??????

[Ray Bell]

Richard, I frankly don't understand...

Why is it wrong to build a replica of a car? I mean if it's honest and out in the open, not for duplicity and profit.

We have a car in Australia that raced in five or six different guises. The owner has all the bodies and parts to build it up in any one of those... well, most of them anyway.

The suggestion that he use the parts that are specific to a guise other than that in which the car presently stands meets with horror, however.

"How can you have two versions of a car existing at the same time?" roar the purists.

Well, whilever that car exists in one form only, none of its other forms will ever be seen, yet those other forms are, in my view, just as important a part of our racing history as the one in which it exists.

Surely the purpose of Historic Racing is to enable people of today to see the cars of yesterday? Somebody else has mentioned the lack of viability of racing (ie endangering) extremely valuable real cars, and the part that known replicas could play in enabling a segment of the past to be perpetuated.

And I am wondering about your statement...

I guess since Haymarket took control the 'Nostalgia' has gone out of this Forum?

...how can you say this?

Don has been here since the beginning, and his words were to the effect that perhaps your kind of initial response is an indication that it's no longer the Nostalgia Forum he knew back then!

I've been here solidly since a month later, and I also see in your initial response something that wouldn't have survived in those times.

Surely what Brian and his client are planning to do is exactly in keeping with Nostalgia and this forum? Bringing back to life a car that was very significant in the creation of Professional Road Racing in the Americas in the sixties! Letting such a car exist and be seen, yet all the time acknowledging that it's a replica and that's all it is.

Look at the reality of what your apparent mindset has done to BRMs for instance... because all but one or two of the front engined 2.5s got chopped up to become rear engined cars, there is but one front engined car in existence. It got crashed and then there were none. Well, fortunately that one is being or has been rebuilt.

But will it be seen again? I have no idea, but if it's locked away in a collection, I'll never see a front engined 2.5 BRM race. And I want to. But if someone had a few bits and pieces and were able to build a replica of one they would be howled down, wouldn't they?

Why?

Because chassis numbers 1, 7, 6 and 5 (or whatever) were cut up and turned into the 1960 cars, weren't they? And that means they can't be recreated or there would be a cataclysmic disaster if such a car were to park next to one of the rear engined cars in the pits somewhere because they never co-existed 'in the period'!

Balderdash! Bring them on! Let's see more of what the old cars were like, but let's do it as Brian has done, openly and clearly declaring them to be replicas.

[David McKinney]

Not a good example, Ray
Most of the rear-engined P48 BRMs were rebuilt as front-engined cars in the 1970s - defined either as fakes or re-creations according to each person's beliefs. I've seen most if not all of them racing since then. There's a photo of one of them in the current Stoneleigh thread

[P 4 Staff]

Originally posted by Brian Nordby
Hello All

Thank you all for giving me a very small nostalgic taste of the experience Penske himself must have faced when he first introduced the car. I'm am truly flattered by all of your all of your comments negative and possitive. This car has still got what it takes to at least rev up imaginations. Please keep them coming.

I will be trying to recreate the version of the car that Roy Gane built in Molin. So any Pictures of the single seat version would be greatly appreciated.

Brian Nordby

Hi Brian.
I hope "they" don´t scare you away...and that you keep us informed about your project

Here´s a link http://www.vsrnonlin.../MC_Plans_1.htm where you can find an interesting article about the car...and even a beautiful scaledrawing.

Very Best: Staff.