83 replies to this topic

[VDP]

Due to lack of real contenders in the upper class the World Championships was held with F2
The question when was take the decisions at the end of 1951 or during the season in 1952 ?

Robert

[fines]

Never. There was no "Formula One World Championship" before 1981, and "Drivers World Championship" races didn't have to be run to Formula One before 1961.

[Tim Murray]

http://forums.atlasf...1952 organisers

[billthekat]

The organizing clubs made the decision for the CSI, most already having decided on using F2 before Alfa finally announced its formal decison to sit out the 1952 season, which was not much of a surprise. The CSI came to the table late on this one and simply blessed what was already a reality.

There was not strictly a lack of machinery, just the lack of another top notch team to compete with Scuderia Ferrari, BRM still fiddling about to a large degree, Maserati not very much a factor -- but always game if there was a customer base, the French cars (the Talbots) were a bit behind the power curve but there were a covey of them, and Ferrari was prepared to sell off the older cars, plus the other flotsom and jetsom of the racing world -- Daimler was seriously looking at fielding a team of revised W165s, so there were enough to fill at least a decent grid most places. There was even the notion that the Americans might get into the fray, more than a few looking at the Offy and wondering, what if.....

Interesting how this topic generally gets short shrift whenever it pops up, much simply charging it off as an anomoly and going from the 1951 season to the 1954 season....

[Ray Bell]

Not to mention the fact that BRM were still trying to be a force and to help make F1 grids large enough...

[billthekat]

Unfortunately, BRM certainly did their cause little good by not doing a better job of supporting those still trying to keep IRF1 as the "Grand Prix" formula, if you will. DCN does a good job out addressing this issue in V.1 of the BRM Saga.

[Ray Bell]

Oh, I know (from the Mays/Roberts book) that they had many failings!

They even elected to miss some meetings on some flimsy grounds, one or maybe two of them becoming F2 races because they did so.

And on the same subject, I wonder if anyone ever looks back and wonders how they might have done with a 750cc V8 in the '54-'60 formula?

[fines]

Back on topic, the Grands Prix de France series was announced for Formula Two in late 1951 already, so the French Grand Prix must've been the first convert. Someone able to say when the other organizers followed suit?

[GIGLEUX]

Sorry of not agreing with you Michael. The Grands Prix de France serial was announced in october 1951 composed of Pau, Marseille, Paris, Reims, Comminges and La Baule; they were opened to "petites cylindrées" cars (sic). It's only in December 1951 that the ACF GP (and not French GP please) was also announced as joigning the six other races and to be raced following the current F2 regs.

[billthekat]

J-MG is correct in marking one of the demarcation points as the organizers began to look for an alternative to IRF1 as the "Grand Prix" formula, the ACF taking a sweep of the horizon and seeing which way the way was blowing. Although the ACF had taken its own path prior to The Last War, tis was a different world. Although the directors of Alfa were slow to formally announce their formal withdrawal from the CSI's CMC for 1952 (I think it was as late as March...), it was already a foregone conclusion in the weeks and months following the CSI announcement of the new IRF1 for the 1954-1957 period that Alfa were departing.

Once the ACF formally jumped ship by adding the GP de l'ACF to the Grands Prix de France series, it seems that most soon started making plans to follow suite, although some may not have done until fairly late in the day, I think that the RAC were among the latter.

Although I am not 100% certain that the ACF was the first, but it had to be among the earliest of the clubs that made the move.

Personally, I have always been somewhat mystified as to the usual view of the "F2 years" that, at least these days, seems to be generally dismissive of the period. If there was ever a period that lifted the Brits from the muck of the European racing world, it was this period, providing both drivers, constructors, mechanics, and all the rest of the bunch with the opportunity to get something more than a toehold in Continental racing. While some may take exception to that, I find that it fits into the pattern which saw Britain finally come to dominate European (International) racing and about every front imaginable. The rise of F2 was a very good thing for Britain, fititng the foundation in place which allowed it to climb upward in the coming seasons.

It is worthwhile to do a re-look as to when the clubs began to change which formula they were using and the reaction of the CSI, which to the best of my memory, accepted reality and simply shifted the events counting towards the CMC to those being run to F2.

[VDP]

Following Gregor Grant The first to switch to formula 2 was the belgian organizers.

Robert

[billthekat]

I wasn't sure, but I thought the RACB were the first, I just wasn't sure off the top of my head. I think they went to F2 at about the time the CSI announced the next IRF1, within a few weeks, so that would be, what? November 1951? The RAC didn't commit for the Silverstone round until either March or April of 1952, if I recall. That means that the Swiss must have been among the early clubs to switch.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Sorry of not agreing with you Michael. The Grands Prix de France serial was announced in october 1951 composed of Pau, Marseille, Paris, Reims, Comminges and La Baule; they were opened to "petites cylindrées" cars (sic). It's only in December 1951 that the ACF GP (and not French GP please) was also announced as joining the six other races and to be raced following the current F2 regs.

Could this have anything to do with the fact that Gordinis might have a better chance?

[GIGLEUX]

Don't think so: at the end of 1951, the 1500 Simca-Gordinis were out of competition against the 12 cyl and the new 4 cyl Ferraris. Gordini had loose the Simca's backing and the 2000cc new model was still in the limbo and an unknown quantity. On the other side what was knowned was that
Ferrari would be the only serious contender against privaters running 4CLT/48 Maseratis and under
powered Talbots. In fact F1 would present unattractive races with only one works team. It was not the case with F2 with works entries from Ferrari, Maserati, Gordini, HWM, Connaught. Were also awaited Alta, Cooper, Sacha-Gordine and so on. In fact race organizers wanted to have good and numerous entries and in that it was a success; they also wanted to avoid a Ferrari domination but for that...

[Vitesse2]

Scanning quickly through BRM Vol 1, it would appear that the first non-French club to opt for F2 was actually the BRDC for the International Trophy, with a deferred decision for the British GP.

A March report by the BRM Association says that the Belgians were still intending to run to F1, as were the Italians and Spanish. But the Swiss had already been reported (apparently erroneously) in the British press as having switched to F2, while the Germans were still undecided.

BRM's no-show at Turin seems to have been the turning point, of course, but in quite what order the decisions were announced I'm not sure. I'll dig out some Motor Sports tomorrow if no-one beats me to it!

But - taking the wider view: even if BRM and Alfa Romeo had still been involved, grids would probably have been pretty sparse. In 1951, the majority of privateers were running Talbot T26 derivatives - a car which had its roots firmly in the 1930s, like the Maseratis and ERAs fielded by the other non-works teams (except Vandervell of course!). Most fields were filled out with F2 cars and the only (theoretically) new car had been the pretty hopeless OSCA: the nadir was Belgium, with just thirteen starters (three Ferraris, three Alfas and seven Talbots).

Even though Neubauer famously supported Earl Howe's attempt to retain the existing formula in October 1951, I don't think Mercedes Benz would ever have returned in 1952: the W154s had been proven less than invincible in Argentina and even though some development would have been done on the W165 since 1939, it wouldn't have been driven by competition. Plus, the pre-war cars had been designed to run on very exotic fuel blends which would probably have been ruled illegal. Comparison of lap times of the ERAs at Reims in 1939 with their post-war performances will demonstrate what I mean.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by billthekat
I wasn't sure, but I thought the RACB were the first, I just wasn't sure off the top of my head. I think they went to F2 at about the time the CSI announced the next IRF1, within a few weeks, so that would be, what? November 1951? The RAC didn't commit for the Silverstone round until either March or April of 1952, if I recall. That means that the Swiss must have been among the early clubs to switch.

On the contrary, the Spa race was one of the last to switch, certainly after the failure of the BRM to appear in Turin. The race was the Grand Prix d'Europe that year, but I don't know whether that had anything to do with the decision; did the CSI have additional influence?

In the case of the British Grand Prix, the decision seems to have been made after the success of the International Trophy meeting on 10 May. The RAC had already announced that the decision would be made by the organisers of the race, the BRDC.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Plus, the pre-war cars had been designed to run on very exotic fuel blends which would probably have been ruled illegal.

Was there any change in the fuel regulations post-war? Whether Daimler-Benz and their suppliers had the facilities to produce the fuels, and the resources to maintain the cars in the manner to which they had become accustomed, is another matter.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, I wondered about the fuel issue...

I thought that fuel was free in F1 until 1958.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by fines
Never. There was no "Formula One World Championship" before 1981, and "Drivers World Championship" races didn't have to be run to Formula One before 1961.

If this is correct than why do some sources (IPeter Higham & Hayhoe/Holland) state that Bruce McLaren (5th in Germany 1958 in a Cooper F2) was not eligible for points.
However Paul Sheldon awarded Bruce 2 points.

Who is right?

Gerrit Stevens

[D-Type]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens


If this is correct than why do some sources (IPeter Higham & Hayhoe/Holland) state that Bruce McLaren (5th in Germany 1958 in a Cooper F2) was not eligible for points.
However Paul Sheldon awarded Bruce 2 points.

Who is right?

Gerrit Stevens

This would depend on the German GP regulations. If they said 'A race for Formula 2 cars shall be run at the same time as the GP' then Higham et al are right. On the other hand if they said 'The German GP is open to cars complying with International Formula 1, 2 and 3' then Sheldon is right.
As Sheldon tends to apply his own rules sometimes in the interests of consistency, I would plump for Higham.
I'm at work and can't check but I think Lang gives no points to McLaren and also says that Allison in the next Formula 1 car, a Lotus, was not awarded points as there were several F2 cars ahead of him.

[Roger Clark]

Did 1958 Formula 2 cars comply with the contemporary Formula 1?

[billthekat]

Last night I finally got a few moments to look at some items covering the Winter of 1951/1952 and the shifting of the sands towards using the IRF2 as the "grand prix" formula. As usual, it allowed me the privilege to see how I put my foot in my mouth each time I opened the latter....

Although the ACF did more than talk about the switch, about every other club spoke a lot but not until after the BRM no-show at Torino did the floodgates truly open and the club ACTUALLY begin to make the arangements to run their events to the IRF2. The RAC, as mentioned, were really late, in May after the success of the International Trophy, but while I still don't have an accurate chronology worked out, during April it seems most of the clubs officially jumped ship.

From what I gather, the CSI simply rolled with the punches, in a fashion. After the usual period of Blazer Paralysis and Fumbling, the CSI apparently allowed the clubs already on the calendar for CMC events to retain their status as CMC rounds. Hence, the CSI could say the equivalent of "What? Me Worry?"

Speaking of the CSI, sorting things out from their even was done on my part with lots of thin places on the ground and having to fill in more than few holes in the saga. A bit more complicated of a show than most realize. Finding anything contemporary and in depth was a challenge and little seems to have been done since then. Interesting that this is the case, isn't it? The more I kicked over rocks, the more rocks there were kick it seemed.....

[Roger Clark]

What is IRF2 and CMC?

[D-Type]

We must remember it was a different world then. Although the championship existed, it was not the be-all and end-all of top line motor racing. A race oganiser essentially ran a race as a free-standing event to make a profit. Sometimes the profit came from gate receipts and sometimes from what the visitors spent in the town - remember that the Monaco GP was originally set up to attract visitors to Monte Carlo in the 'off season. If a race was a championship round, or Grande Epreuve (almost, but not quite, the same), if a top team or teams, or 'name' drivers were going to be there then more people would come and the organisers, or the town, would make more on the gate, over the bar counters, in the restaurants and in the hotels and pensions. In this context, mid fielders mattered - if you couldn't get Romalfa or Ferenzi to come then the Scuderia Ambrosiana, Scuderia Plate, or Ecurie Richmond would have to do and if you could get Fangio, Gonzalez, or Villoresi on the posters so much the better.

The trouble organisers faced was twofold - with Alfa Corse retiring, the works teams were Scuderia Ferrari, BRM and, at a pinch, Gordini so there was little chance of a hard-fought battle at the front. Then we look at the midfield, that is the major privateers, the problem here was there was a shortage of available cars: the latest Maserati dated from 1949, unless it had been tweaked into a Maserati-Plate or Maserati-Milano; the Talbots were even older, some dating to prewar: any private Ferraris were also old as Enzo was too sharp to sell the latest product, except of course the Vandervall car. Towards the back would be the OSCA, Alta and the venerable but effective ERA's. And maybe a Formula 2 contingent. This midfield and back of the grid would be the stock in trade of the smaller, non-championship races.

So, when Alfa Corse withdrew, the Mercedes W165 looked more unlikely as time went on, Maserati made it known they wouldn't field a works (F1) team, BRM failing to show at Turin was the last straw and organisers could visualise races with Ferrari running away from everyone. So they switched to Formula 2. They could see works teams from Ferrari, Maserati, HWM (who had made a good showing the previous year) and Gordini, plus cars from OSCA, the German BMW-eigenbachs and Veritas, and the minor British makes: Cooper, Frazer-Nash (hyphenated?), Connaught. This looked more promising, even if the prima donnas weren't there you'd still be able put on a good show. The privateers had the additional incentive of the Grands Prix de France Formula 2 series so were more likely to buy modern Formula 2 cars to replace their ageing Maseratis and Talbots. The die was cast and I don't think there was ever any single event that caused the shift.

But I'm sure that Robert VDP knows all this. He was asking for key dates rather than background.

Roger,
IRF2 is colonel-speak for International Racing Formula 2, I'm not sure about CMC though. CSI? M***'s Championship?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by D-Type

Roger,
IRF2 is colonel-speak for International Racing Formula 2, I'm not sure about CMC though. CSI? M***'s Championship?

I guessed IRF2, although I prefer to avoid terms that, as far as I know, were never used in contemporary times. WDC is another that seems to be becoming increasingly common on this forum.

CMC has really got me stumped though.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I guessed IRF2, although I prefer to avoid terms that, as far as I know, were never used in contemporary times. WDC is another that seems to be becoming increasingly common on this forum.

CMC has really got me stumped though.

Championnat Mondial des Conducteurs?;)

(aka WDC )

[billthekat]

Sorry, My shorthand for 'Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs' or CMC.... and it was the CSI who actually ran the CMC show, the FIA itself being several steps removed from such activities, farming them to its various sub-bodies, hence -- until 1981 when things changed, it actually is the CSI CMC (with a few seasons of the FISA CMC....).

[Roger Clark]

Thanks, I would never have guessed! Should CMC be translated as DWC, rather than WDC?

Returning thankfully to the original subject, I wonder what might have happened if just one or two Grand Prix organisers had decided to stay with F1 in 1952. It surely wouldn't have needed more than a moderate showing by BRM in Turin for the Belgian and British organisers to hold faith. The Italians too, particularly if arms in Milan could be twisted in the right direction. Could these races have remained in the CMC, making it a two formula championship? I haven't forgotten the SJC, but it was always a special case. Ferrari could have raced the 375 in half the races and the 500 in the others.

[GIGLEUX]

In fact the CMC was already a two formula championship with the Indy race!
Maybe something interesting: in its november 1951 issue the AAT (Action Automobile et Touristique published the 1952 international calender. As "grandes épreuves" we can find:
-may 18 GP de Suisse F1
-may 30 Indianapolis 500 Miles Motor Sweepstakes C (for Course)
-june 1-2 GP de Monaco S (sportracing cars)
-June 22 GP d'Europe (Belgique) F1
-July 6 GP de l'ACF F1 or F2
-July 19 British GP F1
-August 3 German GP f1
-Sept 7 GP of Italy F1
-Oct 26 GP of Spain F1
This indicates that in October 1951 the ACF was already hesitating whether they would join the Grands Prix de France serial in F2 or stay with F1.
By the way in the calendar was to be run the XII Rio de Janeiro GP on December 14 opened to F1 cars.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
In fact the CMC was already a two formula championship with the Indy race!

I hadn't forgotten.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Did 1958 Formula 2 cars comply with the contemporary Formula 1?

Yes,the rules allowed anything less than 2500cc u/s ,even sports cars appeared.

[billthekat]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
In fact the CMC was already a two formula championship with the Indy race!

To use an ancient analogy, not to sound like a broken record, but the "formula" for the National Championship Trail in reality wasn't all that far from that which the CSI was using, the big blower cars generally very few and very far in-between, the vast majority of the entries conforming to the International Formula. However, that is apparently also irrelevant in the view of most, just another complication in the overall scheme of things.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Did 1958 Formula 2 cars comply with the contemporary Formula 1?

Originally posted by Rob29
Yes,the rules allowed anything less than 2500cc u/s ,even sports cars appeared.

I have a feeling there was some rule regarding minimum engine capacities: wasn't there some sort of shenanigans regarding the size of Brabham's Climax engine? Dean Delamont deliberately over-measuring it so it complied, although it was a bog standard F2 unit? Or did I dream that?

Sports cars weren't eligible for F1 as they were two-seaters, although they did run in F2. IIRC all-enveloping bodies were banned in F1 after either 1958 or 1959.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


I have a feeling there was some rule regarding minimum engine capacities: wasn't there some sort of shenanigans regarding the size of Brabham's Climax engine? Dean Delamont deliberately over-measuring it so it complied, although it was a bog standard F2 unit? Or did I dream that?

Sports cars weren't eligible for F1 as they were two-seaters, although they did run in F2. IIRC all-enveloping bodies were banned in F1 after either 1958 or 1959.

All-enveloping bodies were banned in 1961.

We discussed the possibility that there was a minimum engine capacity a few years ago: http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=32714. I think the conclusion was that there was not. However, it intrigued me as to why the Formula 2 cars did not win championship points at the 1958 German Grand Prix if they complied with formula 1. Presumably it was down to whether individual race organisers accepted the entry.

With regard to billthekat's point, the formula used for the TNC was, of course, that used for the 1938-39 Grands Prix, which just happened to have one provision in common with 1952 Formula 1. The 1938-39 formula had a sliding scale of minimum weights depending on engine capacity. Did this apply in the TNC and in Formula 1?

[fines]

Regarding the 1958 German Grand Prix, it's of no consequence if the F2 cars conformed to F1 regulations because they ran in a different race that was just (more or less incidentally) run at the same time as the F1 GP - that's also the reason why Graham Hill competed in only 175 WDC rounds, not 176 as you can read in most WDC statistics. Incidentally, again, the same number of races that Jacques Laffite and Riccardo Patrese (upto the end of '88) competed in, not 176!;)

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by fines
Regarding the 1958 German Grand Prix, it's of no consequence if the F2 cars conformed to F1 regulations because they ran in a different race that was just (more or less incidentally) run at the same time as the F1 GP

Source, please
If this is so, why did those F1 cars which qualified badly start behind the cars in the "other" race?

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Source, please
If this is so, why did those F1 cars which qualified badly start behind the cars in the "other" race?

By reading carefully Motor Sport we have the clues: issue of sept 1958 p596, "and as last year they ran a Formula II event in with the Grand Prix. Further, p597: "At long last we got down to the comparatively serious business of the German GP and, though the starting grid was as shown below, there was a certain amount of nonsense because Brabham, Herrmann, Bonnier, Ruttman, Graham Hill, Allison and Goethals did not complete the required minimum of six training laps, either due to not reading the regulations carefully or blowing up their engines, while Naylor failed to get his paperwork scrutineered properly and was also on the black list. It was finally allowed that these eight should start, but from the back of the grid, irrespective of practise times, which accounts for Brabham's poor grid position, as well as Allison's and Bonnier's. In all 25 cars were assembled on the grid, Ruttman being a non-starter as his engine was irrepairable..."

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

By reading carefully Motor Sport we have the clues: issue of sept 1958 p596, "and as last year they ran a Formula II event in with the Grand Prix. Further, p597: "At long last we got down to the comparatively serious business of the German GP and, though the starting grid was as shown below, there was a certain amount of nonsense because Brabham, Herrmann, Bonnier, Ruttman, Graham Hill, Allison and Goethals did not complete the required minimum of six training laps, either due to not reading the regulations carefully or blowing up their engines, while Naylor failed to get his paperwork scrutineered properly and was also on the black list. It was finally allowed that these eight should start, but from the back of the grid, irrespective of practise times, which accounts for Brabham's poor grid position, as well as Allison's and Bonnier's. In all 25 cars were assembled on the grid, Ruttman being a non-starter as his engine was irrepairable..."

At best, this demonstrates that we can't reach any conclusions as the fastest F2 qualifier was slower than the slowest F1 if those listed above are excluded. Howevr, it might be relevant that they were moved to the back of the "other" race. In 1957 the grid was mixed, unlike 1967 when, of course, the F2 cars didn't comply with F1.

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Source, please
If this is so, why did those F1 cars which qualified badly start behind the cars in the "other" race?

What's so unusual about that?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by fines

What's so unusual about that?

A combined grid of F1 and F2 cars would suggest the race was for F1 and F2 cars, not two separate races. If the latter were the case, then surely the "bad" F1 cars would start at the back of the grid for 'their" race, with all the cars in the F2 "race" starting behind.

[D-Type]

Surely comes down to the regulations for this particular race: Was it a F2 class with competitors eligible for overall placings, or was it a concurrent F2 race with competitors ineligible?

Lang is inconsistent he states 'German GP: C. Allison did not receive points as he was 10th on road behind five Formula 2 cars'. But he doesn't give the two points to Bruce Mclaren either.

He lists the results for the Formula 2 cars in Germany and Morocco as a Formula 2 class but not for other races in which Formula 2 cars ran, e.g. de Beaufort's Porsche in Holland.

Higham lists Allison in 5th place and says ' Allison finished 10th on the roadbehind cars in the concurrent F2 race, he was not awarded points. No other F1 finishers.' (my italics0

I accept that neither is a primary source and each is essentially one man's distillation of several race reports.

Possibly nobody ever envisaged a F2 car finishing that high and neither the ADAC race regulations or the CSI championship regulations covered the possibility.


Vitesse 2
Are you thinking of the 1955 British GP where the race organisers imposed a 2 ltre minimum to exclude all the old Cooper-Bristols, Connaughts, HWM's, etc that were competing in British national races, but allowed Brabham's new rear-engined 'Bobtail' Cooper-Bristol to enter as a '2.2 litre'?


But we are all deviating a long way from Robert's original question which concerened the dates of the various steps along the road from Formula 1 to Formula 2 cars (+Indianapolis)

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney

A combined grid of F1 and F2 cars would suggest the race was for F1 and F2 cars, not two separate races. If the latter were the case, then surely the "bad" F1 cars would start at the back of the grid for 'their" race, with all the cars in the F2 "race" starting behind.

Well, "combined" grids or starting orders are nothing new. IIRC, in most of the early town-to-town races the cars started irrespective of the class they were in, also in many of the so-called Formula Libre races of the twenties, including at least once the Targa Florio (1924). Also in the 1912 French Grand Prix, although that race is a bit special since the Light Cars were also eligible for the Grand Prix. I don't see your argument holding up!

[David McKinney]

I'm still interested in the source for your original statement, Michael.
The precedents you mention don't hold water. You say that the 1912 French Grand Prix was open to cars of more than one class, which tends to be an argument against your contention, rather than for it. And, by definition, a formule libre race is a single event for different classes (or nore often no classes at all).

[fines]

That's why I wrote so-called FLibre - it's a term that is simply not correct for most of the races that appear (e.g.) in the Black Books under this heading. And 1912 was, as I said, an exception - I challenge you (or anyone else for that matter) to produce evidence that there was ever another such case in a major automobile race.

For the 1958 F1/F2 German GP I have several sources - the best I can find in a hurry is the "FIA (Marlboro) Grand Prix Guide" by Jacques Deschenaux, 1950-86 edition, p75: "Course doublée d'une épreuve de F2, à classement séparé, sans points/(...) Formula Two cars ran with Formula One cars, but did not qualify for championship points, and were classified seperately."

[D-Type]

Michael,
What does your book say about Allison not being awarded points?

[David McKinney]

Perhaps I should make clear that it hasn't been my intention to take sides on this issue. Some of the sources I saw at the time gave McLaren 2 points for his placing, and others didn't. Most of the contemporary reports referred to the F1 race and a "concurrent" F2 race, which suggests they were separate, but doesn't answer the question of whether the F2 cars were eligible for inclusion under F1 as well as F2. I suspect that, as you say, they were not eligible, but I would like to know and, I'm sorry, I don't accept something written in 1986 as being proof.
Has anyone got a definitive answer from 1958?

[VDP]

What were the weight limit if there was any at the end of the 50s . There were several cars in a lot of grand prix with ''f2 engine size"
Monaco 1959 by the way, or Monza 1960 were trips driving a F2 car was awarded for points.
Tue question is when did the ''law'' change.

It seems in fact that the GP de France werer held as a separate championship, if my memory is good a pre Bernie championship, that all the teams had to take part at all the races or am I wrong or it was intend at the first moment. This championship was put by Faroux or Roche I don't remember, and after reading the threat in 11/51

The still effective Championnat du monde des conducteurs CDC was still held in ''F1'' rules
But for avoiding that the Ferrari won too easy and also for having a lot of contenders they jump in the same way of the GP de France ''F2''.
Switching before and after Torino GP in 1952

Robert

[GIGLEUX]

No weight limit from 1947 up to 1959 in F1 and F2.

[GIGLEUX]

To return to the 1958 German GP, from two french magazines of the time, L'Automobile and Moteurs, they both gave separate classification for F1 and F2 and none of them gave Allison the 10 th place in general classification or 5th one in F1. So last classified in F1 was v.Trips. No classification with F1 and F2 together.

[GIGLEUX]

In Moteurs Mc Laren was not given the two points of his hypothecal 5° place in German GP.