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USAC, CART and Champ Car history


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#2351 malvi

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:43

Posted Image
1986 Hasselhoff-Groenevelt promo card from my collection. Signed by Arie Luyendyk.
My whole Champ Car/CART handout collection can be found:
https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Champ...3886564?fref=ts


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#2352 RA Historian

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:36

Which team did David Hesselhoff own and when?



Racing for life, 1986: driver Arie Luyendijk

Now I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the team was Provimi Racing, principal owner Aat Groenevelt, with Hasselhoff on board mainly as sponsor bait.

#2353 HistoryFan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:50

Hesselhoff said on RTL yesterday, he was shareholder at a indyCar team.

#2354 ryan86

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:12

Now I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the team was Provimi Racing, principal owner Aat Groenevelt, with Hasselhoff on board mainly as sponsor bait.


Or to get top drivers to jump in his car?

#2355 RA Historian

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 13:07

Small shareholder, brought in as sponsor bait. Not successful, as the team folded at the end of the year.

#2356 E.B.

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 13:13

Should have made better use of Super Pursuit mode.


#2357 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:20

Now I may be wrong here, but it is my understanding that the team was Provimi Racing, principal owner Aat Groenevelt, with Hasselhoff on board mainly as sponsor bait.



Could well be the case.
Given the fact that in 1987 Arie went over to Hemelgarn Racing, with Provimi as one of his sponsors, '86 may indeed have been the last year of Aat Groenevelt's own team Provimi Racing.

Henri

#2358 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:25

Or to get top drivers to jump in his car?



I am not too sure on that. Groenevelt was truly committed to Luyendijk. After his own team folded Provimi (Groenevelt) sponsored Arie up until 1990 at Hemelgarn, Dick Simon Racing and Doug Shierson Racing. Ironically, like Domino's Pizza, Provimic couldnt capitalize on being the sponsor of the Indy 500 winner áfter 1990 because the quit sponsoring cars. But had he been able to continue, I'm coinfident that Groenevelt had remained with Luyendijk: by now an Indy 500 winner.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 27 May 2013 - 17:27.


#2359 ryan86

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 21:40

I am not too sure on that. Groenevelt was truly committed to Luyendijk. After his own team folded Provimi (Groenevelt) sponsored Arie up until 1990 at Hemelgarn, Dick Simon Racing and Doug Shierson Racing. Ironically, like Domino's Pizza, Provimic couldnt capitalize on being the sponsor of the Indy 500 winner áfter 1990 because the quit sponsoring cars. But had he been able to continue, I'm coinfident that Groenevelt had remained with Luyendijk: by now an Indy 500 winner.

Henri


It was a play on words with regards to Hasselhoff's later hit!



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#2360 HistoryFan

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 21:50

Dale Coyne was 25 years car owner until his first win. Are there more who took so long?

#2361 ensign14

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 22:11

Junie Donlavey. 30 years.



#2362 HistoryFan

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:06

We have three drivers with their first victory this year.

What were the years with the most first victories?

#2363 Supersox

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:25

I stand corrected, thanks Michael.
I forgot about the Eagle. Stupid since in the past weekend I tried to do some more research on the '84 Ligier too and thus read about Cogan's car swapping.
That Ligier is a real mystery on the internet at least.


For the real knit pickers, those 27 84C's were not identical because there was at least one Buick V6 pwered version and if my memory is correct there were 2 of those in total (lack te time to verify that right now on the internet or a book. So 25 identical chassis-engine combos, I think that is the record for the Pre-IRL era.


henri

For ''knit pickers'' read nit pickers. Nits are the eggs of head lice and rather small hence those who look for small detail/things are.......

#2364 HistoryFan

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:00

Junie Donlavey. 30 years.


But that was Nascar,

I just look for AAA, USAC, CART, ChampCar, IRL and IndyCar


#2365 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:21

But that was Nascar,

I just look for AAA, USAC, CART, ChampCar, IRL and IndyCar


Andy Granatelli took a while to win his first, and by then he was more of a sponsor than an owner.

#2366 E.B.

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 14:31

We have three drivers with their first victory this year.

What were the years with the most first victories?


My knowledge falls off a cliff for the post 1970 era, but I would take a guess at 1946 as the runaway winner due to the huge number of events included that season, and 1952 for a season with a more typical championship schedule.


#2367 ryan86

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 00:14

1995: Gordon, Riberio, de Ferran
1996: Zanardi, Vasser, Fernandez
1997: Gugelmin, Moore, Blundell
1999: Montoya, Fittipaldi, Kanaan
2000: Moreno, Papis, da Matta, Castroneves
2001: Carpentier, Dixon, Junqueria (Brack)

3 or so new winners doesn't seem too uncommon around the turn of the century.

Edited by ryan86, 05 June 2013 - 00:14.


#2368 Zeroninety

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:30

1995: Gordon, Riberio, de Ferran


And Pruett, too.

#2369 B Squared

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:41

Bill Shaw is selling off his father's Indy 500 awards and mementos. From the Indy Star:

http://www.indystar....dad-s-treasures


Sale results:

http://www.antiquehe...p?id=398&page=1



#2370 E1pix

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:20

And Pruett, too.

Good catch, at Michigan in the Firestone car. (and at a spry 35)

#2371 E.B.

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:33

My knowledge falls off a cliff for the post 1970 era, but I would take a guess at 1946 as the runaway winner due to the huge number of events included that season, and 1952 for a season with a more typical championship schedule.


Putting a bit more meat on the bones, I make it that 1946 had 20 "new" winners - however, in the spirit of the question that season should maybe be ignored, even if the answer is technically correct.

Next up seem to be 1948 and 1952 with 7 new winners, although they both include a Pike's Peaker in those totals.

5 new winners a season wasn't uncommon in the early 20s, whilst 1938 has the unusual distinction of having a new winner at every race! The fact that it was a 2 race championship may have helped in this regard.......





#2372 HistoryFan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:38

thank you.

#2373 HistoryFan

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:59

Who was car owner from Tony Bettenhausen in 1951?

#2374 E.B.

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:12

Murrell Belanger for most of the season, but at Indy Tony gave up the chance of driving the winning car (not for the first time) and drove for Lou Moore.


#2375 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:42

Thanks

#2376 HistoryFan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 10:19

Has anyone a list with the most wins by car owner?

#2377 paulhooft

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 18:27

Jimmy Clark was seen testing the Proto of the 1967 Lotus Turbine at Indianapolis. in March 1968.
We all know he never lived, to made it to the race.
I Always wondered, was there any racing Number assigned for him for his 1968 Lotus 56?

#2378 rateus

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:06

Jimmy Clark was seen testing the Proto of the 1967 Lotus Turbine at Indianapolis. in March 1968.
We all know he never lived, to made it to the race.
I Always wondered, was there any racing Number assigned for him for his 1968 Lotus 56?

Clark's intended ride was the #30 that was reassigned to Mike Spence, alas with tragic results :cry:

#2379 Henri Greuter

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:37

Clark's intended ride was the #30 that was reassigned to Mike Spence, alas with tragic results :cry:




I am not too sure on that. As far as I can recall, the #20 and #30 were the Granatelli Entries and #30 being appointed to Greg Weld. The #60 and #70 were from what I remember the Lotus works entries, with #70 ending up with Graham Hill, that suggests to me that Clark was slated for the #60.
We can only wonder what could have happened, given the fact that in practice the #60 turned out to be the best of the cars and having the best race of them all....

Henri

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#2380 E.B.

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 20:12

Which chassis did Clark actually drive at Indy? The Andrew Ferguson book seems to contradict itself, stating both 56/1 (that became #60) and 56/2 (that became #30).


#2381 xj13v12

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:23

Which chassis did Clark actually drive at Indy? The Andrew Ferguson book seems to contradict itself, stating both 56/1 (that became #60) and 56/2 (that became #30).

Ferguson's book has other similar oddities. The true identity of the type 29s is also altered due to a personal dislike for Americans and desire for an owner to be denied the true history of a car, so I am told by someone who actually found the car in poor shape and resurrected it. Pity as I found the book the best read on the development of Indy cars and the inside story of Lotus.

#2382 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:49

Ferguson's book has other similar oddities. The true identity of the type 29s is also altered due to a personal dislike for Americans and desire for an owner to be denied the true history of a car, so I am told by someone who actually found the car in poor shape and resurrected it. Pity as I found the book the best read on the development of Indy cars and the inside story of Lotus.


That warrants further explanation.

#2383 E.B.

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 13:21

That warrants further explanation.


Indeed, what a bizarre accusation. And unlikely to go unchallenged by the man from Farnham that I believe compiled that section of the book.


#2384 xj13v12

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:08

Indeed, what a bizarre accusation. And unlikely to go unchallenged by the man from Farnham that I believe compiled that section of the book.



Not trying to make an accusation and indeed this was challenged at length by people involved. History now records one version of the chassis histories, counter argued by others. This happens, don't worry about it. The conflict is already over 40 years old and won't change by discussing it again today. Perhaps another example of proving by publishing. I am happy enough with the info in a great book albeit it is disputed by a previous owner of one of the cars.

#2385 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:50

Not trying to make an accusation and indeed this was challenged at length by people involved. History now records one version of the chassis histories, counter argued by others. This happens, don't worry about it. The conflict is already over 40 years old and won't change by discussing it again today. Perhaps another example of proving by publishing. I am happy enough with the info in a great book albeit it is disputed by a previous owner of one of the cars.




Difficulty is that ever so often it happens that long told facts, printed in numberous articles, books etc are taken for granted while others who know better don't speak out in order to `hide` their treasure and keep the secret for themselves.
I ran into such an affair last year myself and it still makes me sick when I think about it again.

And sometimes it is just next to impossible to correct sucht well known and accepted stories since `it can't have been different`. The myth about the 1964 Thompson car of Dave MacDonald is a great example of such a case, On this forum evidence came forward that proved for more than 99% sure that Neither MacDonald, nor Sachs ran cars with 80 or so gallons fuel on board. Still even in a recent publication, published way after "We over here" had made our discoveries and discussed them, I found such figures listed yet again.

Henri

#2386 HistoryFan

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 19:28

At the Vanderbilt Cup in 1937 there were European cars competing against the US ones. Winner was Bernd Rosemeyer with an Auto Union. Why were the European cars better?

#2387 Henri Greuter

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 20:04

At the Vanderbilt Cup in 1937 there were European cars competing against the US ones. Winner was Bernd Rosemeyer with an Auto Union. Why were the European cars better?



Much more powerful than anything that the Americans could offer to begin with. But also: chassis technology. The European GP cars were built to compete at twisty curvy tracks so they had more sophisiticated chassis, suspension and axle wise.
Forgive me the expression but the ladderframe solid axle, leaf spring chassis that Americans used on primarily dirt tracks were almost agricultural compared with the M-B and A-U GP cars. But the American cars were simply designed for an entirely different game: Dirt track racing and the high speed oval of Indy

Having said that: I wonder if anyone but Bernd Rosemeyer would have dared to try the rear engined Auto Union on a dirt track, as long as the car wouldn't break on the rough terrain.

Henri

#2388 HistoryFan

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:23

Thank you.

Another question: Dale Coyne must be the current car owner who gave the most drivers their first IndyCar race. Has someone numbers how much drivers gave their first race for the current teams?

#2389 HistoryFan

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 15:44

Dale Coyne enters six drivers this year (perhaps a seventh one):
- Justin Wilson
- Stefan Wilson
- Mike Conway
- James Davison
- Pippa Mann
- Ana Beatriz

But were there teams in the past who enters more drivers in a year?
How much is the all-time-record?

#2390 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 17:06

Dale Coyne enters six drivers this year (perhaps a seventh one):
- Justin Wilson
- Stefan Wilson
- Mike Conway
- James Davison
- Pippa Mann
- Ana Beatriz

But were there teams in the past who enters more drivers in a year?
How much is the all-time-record?

Team Scandia immediately comes to mind (10 drivers in 1997 if Wikipedia is correct) but that was in the IRL.

#2391 HistoryFan

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 19:58

What I've found:

10
Euromotorsport 1992

9
Armstrong Mould 1980
=> they have also 5 different chassis and three different engines!

8
Dale Coyne 1991
Scandia 1998
Dick Simon 1993
Dreyer-&-Reinbold 2011

7
Dick Simon 1987
Dick Simon 1988
Hemelgarn 1989
Bettenhausen 1989
Walker 1992
Menard 1993
Prayton/Coyne 1994
Dreyer-&-Reinbold 2009
Dreyer-&-Reinbold 2010
Sam Schmidt 2011

#2392 B Squared

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 20:03

Johnny Rutherford's Indianapolis 500 winning 1974 McLaren M16C sells at RM Auctions Monterey sale:

 

http://www.rmauction...?lot_id=1060704


Edited by B Squared, 20 August 2013 - 20:39.


#2393 xj13v12

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 20:46

Unbelievable price. Is this premium for an Indy winner due to so few of them being held in private hands ie outside of IMS? I was told the 1973 winner, the Brayton car sold last year privately as well.



#2394 B Squared

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 21:48

Unbelievable price. Is this premium for an Indy winner due to so few of them being held in private hands ie outside of IMS? I was told the 1973 winner, the Brayton car sold last year privately as well.

I think the fact that it is a McLaren along with being a Indy winner are contributory, but yes - very few Indy 500 winning cars are available per your observation.



#2395 xj13v12

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 22:25

That was chassis M16C-5. I still own M16C-2, Revson pole at Ontario and Pocono.



#2396 HistoryFan

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 16:00

With 167 victories, Penske is the most successful IndyCar team in history. Ganassi has more than 100 victories. Has anyone a list with the most successful teams/car owners?



#2397 RVM

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 14:10

Putting a bit more meat on the bones, I make it that 1946 had 20 "new" winners - however, in the spirit of the question that season should maybe be ignored, even if the answer is technically correct.

 

"Ouch!" said the automotive historian....



#2398 E.B.

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 14:53

"Ouch!" said the automotive historian....

 

I'll concede I should have worded it better, as it's certainly a season more worthy of study than most. 



#2399 RVM

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 18:16

I'll concede I should have worded it better, as it's certainly a season more worthy of study than most. 

 

Given that the usual way of dealing with the 1946 season is to essentially ignore it and only cherry-pick the 100-milers and the Indianapolis race, I am not sure you could have expressed it otherwise. The "Ouch!" was for the way that whenever history is inconvenient or otherwise awkward, it simply gets ignored or made to fit the viewpoint being expressed, contrary to Moynihan's warning about facts.



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#2400 rateus

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 18:28

I don't think this has been posted here before - lots of b/w pics from the late 70s and 80s :love:

http://bobh.photoshe...O7hporJ1Pc4/0/1