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#251 malvi

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Posted 29 May 2005 - 20:52

Could it be J&B Backhoe(spelling?) advertise on back wing?
Seems like Lightning for me too.
Could it be 1982???

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#252 malvi

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 19:22

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I'm curious about the Watson as a "Watson 82" appeared in Can-Am about 1986. I know about the one-off 1977 car and the one-off (?) 1978 car but what cars did Watson build between 1979 and 1983?

Allen


Quick reference from Kirby`s 1983 CART yearbook:
Veteran crew chief AJ Watson built one new indy car in 1981 and another on-off in 1982.The 1981 chassis was a copy of a Penske PC7 and continued to be used in most 82 races while the 82 car was a March lookalike and made a few starts in 82.

#253 malvi

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:11

Originally posted by malvi
Could it be J&B Backhoe(spelling?) advertise on back wing?
Seems like Lightning for me too.
Could it be 1982???


Of course I meant 1983 - The first Indy car race in Las Vegas.
Only 24 drivers qualified there(fastest DNQ-rs Cogan & Sneva added to the back of the field as
"promoters options") and 11!!! drivers not to make the field. Only DNQ driver known to me was Bill Alsup with his new March83C(bought after Pocono from Rick Galles-same car Unser Jr drove couple of times). Could one of those DNQrs be this Malloy entry(Caliva or somebody else???).
Source: Kirby

#254 malvi

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Posted 31 May 2005 - 07:44

Originally posted by malvi


Of course I meant 1983 - The first Indy car race in Las Vegas.
Only 24 drivers qualified there(fastest DNQ-rs Cogan & Sneva added to the back of the field as
"promoters options") and 11!!! drivers not to make the field. Only DNQ driver known to me was Bill Alsup with his new March83C(bought after Pocono from Rick Galles-same car Unser Jr drove couple of times). Could one of those DNQrs be this Malloy entry(Caliva or somebody else???).
Source: Kirby


Calivas car he run at Riverside 83 and some DNQs in 1982 was some sort of hybrid car always listed as McLaren-Lightning(or McLightning) with Chevy engine.
source: 84 Cart media guide & Hungness 83 & 82
Posted Image
The same car???
From Hungness 1982

#255 malvi

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 09:43

Some information about 1980 Watson cars:
Watson ran two cars in most 1980 races.Sheldon Kinser usually drove his non-ground-effect but Cosworth engined first string car...
Kinser`s car is definitely an older car, but Vuky`s, hmm??? Could it be older car with added sidepods and ground effects or AJ built totally new car for 1980 ???
Any information is welcome.

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:14.


#256 malvi

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 09:47

All images and story from Cart PPG 1981 yearbook(G.Kirby)

#257 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 11:07

Originally posted by brickyard
Hi,

The recent news that Herdez Competition changed is name to HVM, remind me about other CART teams that changed their names and owners allong the way.
Some by merges, some by sale. How about trying to trace them all?

Rahal-Hogan Racing, then splited in two: Team Rahal and Hogan Racing (also a year as Penske-Hogan Racing)

Any ideas how many more??...


Sorry for intrupting the current string of messages and pictures.

quoted the opening message and took out a part.

Patrick Racing was taken over at the end of 1898 by Chip Ganassi and that was the start of what nowadays is still Ganassi racing.

Patrick started all over again though he managed to retain some of his olde teammembers, most important oned Jim McGee and Mo Nunn and this new Patrick Racing became the Alfa Romeo works CART outfit. (Off topic notion: Anybody out here willing to share info about the March 90CA with us ???)

End of 1991, Patrick hired Rahal, got rid of the Alfa engines, contacted Ilmor to lease Chevies and was told by Ilmor to get lost since they would never ever lease engines to him anymore after he had shipped two Ilmors to Italy for Alfa Romeo to investigate them in late 1989 prior to handing them over to Chip Ganassi.
In order to allow Rahal to race in 1992, he sold out to Rahal and his new found partner Carl Hogan and that was the second originally Pat Patrick owned Patrick Racing Team that went over into other hands. From here on it went along like brickyard wrote.

Not finished yet, Patrick then recreated yet another Patrick Racing and in '94 they were the Firstone test team, with Pruett testing the tires before appearing in CART again in 1995.

Henri

#258 malvi

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:23

Some little additions to Henri Greuter`s solid Patrick story.
Ganassi bought Patrick Racing in the fall of 1987,with founder Pat Patrick staying on for 88 and 89 under a management contract.At the end of 89 Patrick,along with engineer Mo Nunn, left to take on the responsibility of the Alfa Romeo team headed by Giorgio Pianta. For 1990 Patrick,Nunn,McGee & Alfa Romeo put together all new team with official name Patrick Racing International.
story from "Men & Machines of Indy Car Racing 90-91"

#259 gbl

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 20:45

Information about the March chassis can be found at www.marchives.com

The two sideshots are from Phoenix (typical with the alu in front of the white wall)

I already said that I'm thinking the same about the Watson chassis:

One was built in 1977, another in 1978. One of those was probably updated in 1980 (car #2). That should be the white car #22 in my picture from 1981.

The other car was then most likely sold to Rattlesnake Racing.

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#260 ghinzani

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 22:13

I have a question, in 84 Kenny Acheson signed to a team to drive CART races in a brand new March. However when he got to Indy he found that all they had was an Eagle-Chevy (81 I think) and promptly left in disgust. Anyone know which team, what car and any pics? Thanks

#261 Rob G

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 22:48

Originally posted by ghinzani
I have a question, in 84 Kenny Acheson signed to a team to drive CART races in a brand new March. However when he got to Indy he found that all they had was an Eagle-Chevy (81 I think) and promptly left in disgust. Anyone know which team, what car and any pics? Thanks

According to Jack C. Fox's "The Illustrated History of the Indianapolis 500 1911-1984", Acheson was entered by Hall Properties, car #92, but they did not arrive. Unfortunately it doesn't list the chassis.

#262 William Dale Jr

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 00:40

Originally posted by malvi
Some little additions to Henri Greuter`s solid Patrick story.
Ganassi bought Patrick Racing in the fall of 1987,with founder Pat Patrick staying on for 88 and 89 under a management contract.At the end of 89 Patrick,along with engineer Mo Nunn, left to take on the responsibility of the Alfa Romeo team headed by Giorgio Pianta. For 1990 Patrick,Nunn,McGee & Alfa Romeo put together all new team with official name Patrick Racing International.
story from "Men & Machines of Indy Car Racing 90-91"


After that, Mo Nunn headed off to Ganassi, but when? At the start of 1991 or at the start of 1992?

#263 ghinzani

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 08:24

Originally posted by Rob G

According to Jack C. Fox's "The Illustrated History of the Indianapolis 500 1911-1984", Acheson was entered by Hall Properties, car #92, but they did not arrive. Unfortunately it doesn't list the chassis.


Thanks for that Rob, at least we are somewhere along the line. I wonder if TW knows more?

#264 gbl

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 22:23

All Leader Card pictures are from Phoenix, you can easily see the different engines. Vukovich is listed as an Eagle by Harms and Autocourse but that has to be wrong (unless the pictures are from practice and they had an Eagle backup car).
The #38 Lightning - McLaren is the same car on both pictures. Do you have the DNQ-lists for the 1983 races?

#265 malvi

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 09:08

Originally posted by gbl
All Leader Card pictures are from Phoenix, you can easily see the different engines. Vukovich is listed as an Eagle by Harms and Autocourse but that has to be wrong (unless the pictures are from practice and they had an Eagle backup car).
The #38 Lightning - McLaren is the same car on both pictures. Do you have the DNQ-lists for the 1983 races?


My guess is Autocourse & Harms according official media guide and there Vuky`s car at Phoenix listed as Eagle-Offy too and it is probably wrong.
In another source i have - Kirby`s 81 Cart yearbook -Vuky`s car listed correctly Watson-Offy.

Yep ,Vukovich #2 Watson is 1978 car with added sidepods.
Indy 500 history according Hungness & Allen Brown`s site.
1978 Kinser 32th
1979 Kinser 28Th
1980 Vukovich 12th

I do not have 1983 DNQrs(except Indy 500).
The first official media guide with DNQrs(incomplite) is 1985 one.

#266 gbl

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:15

But you were talking about 11 non-qualifiers at Vegas 83?

#267 malvi

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:50

Originally posted by gbl
But you were talking about 11 non-qualifiers at Vegas 83?


Only this fact was mentioned at Kirby`s 84 yearbook.
For example at Cleveland no fewer than 37 drivers and 49 cars showed up, defenitely at Milwaukee was lot of DNQrs - I know only Daly,who blow up Wysards only engine.
In Mid-Ohio was 33 drivers and 35 cars etc. Only facts - no listings, names, cars.
Definitely such information available in official programs,but i do not have any - yet.
Hard to say,what kind of info is available in 1983 magazines(Autosport , On Track).
Maybe somebody can help us about this???

#268 malvi

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 06:51

"Estabilished as a subsidiary of Team Shierson,Jim O`Donnell`s team was one of just six to log more than 3000 miles in competition during the season,with Canadian Scott Goodyear posting no less than nine top ten finishes along the way.The Bob Hancher-managed team was duly rewarded at season`s end as Goodyear earned STPs "Most Improved Driver" award, the Master Mechanic award for "Most Improved Chief Mechanic" went to Dick Caron and PPG cited the distinctive blue and silver Mackenzie Financial Services Lola for its outstanding use of color" [/B][/QUOTE]
Posted Image

To be more accurate: Jim O`Donnell was founder and president of Mackenzie Financial at the time.

One more correction: In 1981 Bill Alsup drove third Penske car(PC9B) and his own PC7 in the races where Penske did not field him.
In december 80 Roger Penske announced that Mario Andretti would be unable to meet the schedule requirements of sponsor A.B.Dick in 1981 because of his Formula One commitments, and that Alsup would therefore be driving Penske`s "A.B.Dick Pacemaker" in eight 1981 races! For the unsuspecting Alsup it was an impossible dream come true...
source Kirby`s 1981 Cart yearbook.

#269 malvi

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 10:04

Some unusual & weird cars/entrants from Indy 82
Original picture caption is:"It was told that Bob Harkey traded an airplane for this car..."
All images from Hungness Indy 500 yearbook 1982.

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:14.


#270 ghinzani

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 15:29

Originally posted by malvi


One more correction: In 1981 Bill Alsup drove third Penske car(PC9B) and his own PC7 in the races where Penske did not field him.
In december 80 Roger Penske announced that Mario Andretti would be unable to meet the schedule requirements of sponsor A.B.Dick in 1981 because of his Formula One commitments, and that Alsup would therefore be driving Penske`s "A.B.Dick Pacemaker" in eight 1981 races! For the unsuspecting Alsup it was an impossible dream come true...
source Kirby`s 1981 Cart yearbook. [/B]


I notice Bill Alsup was sponsored by London Pride in 1980 http://www.formulaon...ride/index.html - is this the same London Pride I drink every time I go to the HitW behind Waterloo station on my way to football?

#271 malvi

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 17:20

Originally posted by ghinzani


I notice Bill Alsup was sponsored by London Pride in 1980 http://www.formulaon...ride/index.html - is this the same London Pride I drink every time I go to the HitW behind Waterloo station on my way to football?


Look above, #47 Caliva`s McLaren(Alsup owned car) at Lexington was sponsored(on back wing) by London Pride. Maybe this logo is familiar to you...

#272 ghinzani

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 17:49

Posted Image[/URL]
Phil Caliva McLaren-Chevy
[/B]


Not really sure if I can see anyhting on that rear wing at all. Need some new eyes maybe?! :-)

#273 malvi

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 18:37

to ghinzani - check page 2

#274 ghinzani

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 18:50

[i]Originally posted by malviPosted Image
Caliva in ??? 1980
source - same
Exellent work gbl!!! [/B]

Ahh I see now... but I think it also says engines so probably not. Thanks for the great pics anyway :up:

#275 gbl

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 19:27

-Are you sure that the 1981 was still owned by Bill Alsup? It was heavely modified and had a Chevy V8. My guess would be John Malloy as the owner and the car was then married with a Lightning to the #38 car shown above.

-#88 Billy Scott: That's the old Menards Lightning, don't know what a Donovan is, but no turbo obviously, Machinists Union had such an engine, too

-#27 Rusty Schmidt: Watson 78-80 - the ex-Vukovich car

-#79 Bob Harkey: Parnelli VPJ6C - Harkey bought all his cars from Foyt, didn't he?

I've now updated 1996-1998 and added a lot of the Watson cars (not 1978 yet since I disagree with Allen Brown)

#276 Disco Stu

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 19:49

I'd have to double check, but I believe the Donovan was a reworked Chevy stock block.

#277 malvi

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 20:50

To gbl
Yep, it was my mistake about Caliva. His team 81-83 usually listed as CHC Intersec Racing Team.
My wild guess is it was probably Calivas own operation with old(probably ex Alsup???) McLaren and with that hybrid Lightning later, but i have not any kind of proof.
Maybe you know something about that Mitchell/Malloy thing??? It is total mystery for me.
Mitchell Engineering is definitely some sort of sponsor, but who is John T. Malloy???(T. from 84 Cart media guide).
I agree with Disco Stu about Donovan and it was definitely normally aspirated V8.
Harkey`s Coyote come from Foyt, no idea about Parnelli but it make sense.

#278 ghinzani

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 20:58

Originally posted by malvi
To gbl
Yep, it was my mistake about Caliva. His team 81-83 usually listed as CHC Intersec Racing Team.
My wild guess is it was probably Calivas own operation with old(probably ex Alsup???) McLaren and with that hybrid Lightning later, but i have not any kind of proof.
Maybe you know something about that Mitchell/Malloy thing??? It is total mystery for me.
Mitchell Engineering is definitely some sort of sponsor, but who is John T. Malloy???(T. from 84 Cart media guide).
I agree with Disco Stu about Donovan and it was definitely normally aspirated V8.
Harkey`s Coyote come from Foyt, no idea about Parnelli but it make sense.


Malloy? http://www.twbookmar.../46/0446385522/

#279 gbl

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 07:13

I need to know about the "Autosport Racing Team" car 92 that Franck Freon drove at Indy 1995. It was a blue Lola T9200 - Menard. It is not listed in the entry list, but Indy Regency had a #29 listed and Freon drove for the team in 1994 with such a sponsorship.

The second car I have no idea about is a yellow Lola T9200 or T9300 #81 with no sponsors. It had a 93 spec rear wing so it has to year has to be 1993-1995. Any idea?

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#280 Herbert

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 07:58

Quote from the 1995-96 CART-yearbook of Jeremy Shaw:

"French Rookie driver Franck Freón made a valiant attempt to qualify a three-year-old Lola-Menard/Buick entered by Steve Erickson's Autosport Racing Team. Freon posted his four best laps during his qualifying attempt on the final Saturday [....] but was bumped in the final hour.

#281 Herbert

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 08:08

In 1995 Mike Greenfield borrowed #81-car from Pagan Racing, a Lola T92-Buick, for his rookie-tests but switched afterwards to his self-ownwd #42 Lola T93-Greenfield.

I only got a b/W-picture of the #81 car, but it could be yellow.

#282 gbl

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Posted 11 June 2005 - 10:37

Thanks :)

#283 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 22:11

Originally posted by gbl
I've now updated 1996-1998 and added a lot of the Watson cars (not 1978 yet since I disagree with Allen Brown)

What do we disagree on? You've researched this so methodically that I'm more likely to be wrong. :

Allen

#284 Jim Thurman

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Posted 12 June 2005 - 23:20

Originally posted by Disco Stu
I'd have to double check, but I believe the Donovan was a reworked Chevy stock block.


I agree. I don't have all the details either, but I know Donovan engines were used in Sprint Cars (particularly in the CRA - California Racing Association). I should remember the man's first name, but can't pull it in at the moment :confused:

#285 gbl

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 10:26

Originally posted by Allen Brown
What do we disagree on? You've researched this so methodically that I'm more likely to be wrong. :

Allen


The two Watson cars have different body work around the front suspension and the engine cover. You mention that Bagley could have used the 78 car at some races after Indy 1978. Please check back the thread about the USAC cars in London. There is a picture of the #22 car - the 77 model. I doubt that Bagley ever ran the 78 model (and I don't think they were repainting the cars every two weeks :-) ). www.zoompics.com has a picture from Mosport but I can't identify the car since the engine cover is taken off.

#286 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 14:28

This is what I have on OldRacingCars.com at present for the 1977/78 Watsons:

Indianapolis 500  29/05/1977  #24 Bigelow 6				  

Milwaukee 150	 12/06/1977  #24 Bigelow 7				  

Pocono 500		26/06/1977  #24 Bigelow 29				 

Michigan 200	  17/07/1977  #24 Bigelow 11				 

Texas 200		 31/07/1977  #24 Bigelow 10				 

California 500	04/09/1977  #24 Bigelow 28				 

Michigan 150	  17/09/1977  #24 Bigelow 15				 

Phoenix 150	   18/03/1978  #24 Kinser 6				   

Ontario 200	   26/03/1978  #24 Kinser 8				   

Texas 200		 15/04/1978  #24 Kinser 15				  

Trenton 200	   23/04/1978  #24 Kinser 14				  

Indianapolis 500  28/05/1978  #22 Bagley 27   #24 Kinser 32  

Mosport Park 300k 11/06/1978				  #22 Bagley 17  

Milwaukee 150	 18/06/1978  #24 Bigelow 6   #22 Bagley 7   

Pocono 500		25/06/1978  #24 Kinser 12   #22 Bagley 26  

Michigan 200	  16/07/1978  #24 Kinser DNS  #22 Bagley 12  

Atlanta 150	   23/07/1978  #24 Kinser 17   #22 Bagley 6   

Texas Grand Prix  06/08/1978  #24 Kinser 19   #22 Bagley 16  

Milwaukee 200	 20/08/1978  #24 Kinser 11   #22 Bagley DNQ 

California 500	03/09/1978  #24 Kinser 17   #22 Bagley 4   

Michigan GP	   16/09/1978  #24 Kinser 8	#22 Bagley 6   

Trenton 150	   23/09/1978  #24 Kinser 10   #22 Bagley 12  

Silverstone Indy  01/10/1978				  #22 Bagley 13  

Brands Hatch Indy 07/10/1978				  #22 Bagley 14  

Phoenix 150	   28/10/1978  #24 Kinser 19   #22 Bagley 14
I have their histories as follows:

1977 car. Sheldon Kinser started 1978 with the only Watson, presumably the team's sold 1977 car. Kinser then took the 1978 car for the Indy 500 but only Bagley drove the next race (Mosport) and by the time Kinser returned at Pocono, he was in the 77 car (ditto at Ontario). Assumed to have been driven by Kinser for the rest of the year.

1978 car. Driven by Sheldon Kinser at the Indy 500 but Kinser goes missing for a couple of races and Bagley takes over the 78 (as at Pocono, Ontario, Michigan, Brands and Silverstone according to Autosport). Assumed to have been driven by Bagley everywhere except at the Indy 500.

I've just looked at the 1979 Hungness and it says the #22 car was the 1977 Watson and the #24 car was the 1978 one. So Autosport and Hungness don't agree. I have to favour Hungness over Autosport so should I have to change my histories so the 1978 car is always the #24?

The liveries of the cars do change more than I would expect. The red, blue and white livery on the 1977 car at Indy in 1977 moves onto the 1978 car in 1978 and then back to the 1977 car in 1979. Meanwhile, the 1977 car had Kent Oil livery in 1978 and the 1978 car had Genesee livery in 1979. Confused? Me too!

Allen

#287 gbl

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Posted 13 June 2005 - 20:30

Hmm, I have Watson 77 #24 up to Indy and then #22 for Bagley, Watson 78 -> #24 since Indy.

#288 malvi

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 16:36

To gbl
Some 1993 corrections,according to 1994 Cart media guide & 1993/94 Autocourse Cart yearbook.
Vitolo at Detroit & Bonner at Cleveland and Indy - entrant was Gino Gaglianos Nu-Tech Motorsport.
Bonner`s #28 DNS at Toronto is mistake.Should be #29 Grouillard Eurosport-Marboro Lola 92-Chevy.

#289 gbl

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 18:40

Gagliano, 40, joined the PPG Indy Car World Series in 1990 when the Warren, Mich. resident formed Nu-Tech Motorsports and based it out of his hometown. The following year he formed a partnership with Dale Coyne Racing. Among the drivers who served under Gagliano’s guidance were Guido Dacco, Dennis Vitolo, Tony DeTommaso and Jay Hill.



Marchives has added a great article about the 1983 cars:

http://www.marchives...gallery/album35

#290 malvi

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 20:18

To gbl
I agree with you about Coyne/Gagliano partnership.Gagliano run his operation after 1990(obviously) under Coyne franchise.1990 Dacco,1991 GG partnered with Coyne(Vitolo appeared in 3 races for Nu-Tech before running Coyne`s 90 Lola at Nazareth),1992 De Tommaso & Hill,1993 Vitolo & Bonner. Every year except 1991 looks pretty independent for me. Coyne`s shop have always been at Illinois but...
Posted Image
For a sorry GG died in an industrial accident in his hometown of Detroit on October 28,1996

Have some 1993 comparision fun...
Posted Image
complete performance chart from 1994 media guide
Posted Image
without Vitolo & Brooks

#291 malvi

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 20:59

to gbl
1994 Euromotorsport correction (i know it`s a real mess).
Antonio Ferrari had 2 cars - older poorly prepared and outclassed 92 Lola with Ilmor A engine(this car never saw the finish line) and 93 Lola with Ilmor C - usually AF did not run this car due to a lack of finance. Somehow Euromotorsport made 1994 season to all(except Indy & Milwaukee) and then closed doors.
To be excact:
Zampedri: SP & LB #50 93Lola with Ilmor C (usually listed as AGIP/Dinema/Fluoril car).
Kudrave: SP & LB #55 92 Lola with Ilmor A (AGIP/Hawaiian Tropic) - DNQ and PHO(DNQ) with same car only #50 and with AGIP/Dinema/Fluoril sponsorship. The newer car was at Phoenix #55(AGIP/Hawaiian Tropic) and in the hands of Jeff Andretti.
Lavaggi: DET #50 93 Lola-Ilmor C (DNQ).
After that Jeff Wood drove older car 6 times(From Portland to Loudon),then Franck Freon drove the same car at Vancouver and Elkhart Lake.
Wood ended the season with newer Lola-Ilmor C (2 DNQ-s at Nazareth & Laguna Seca).
Source: Autocourse CART 1994/95
I hope it was a little help...

#292 gbl

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 21:05

I don't want to touch these teams (Coyne, Bettenhausen, Euromotorsport, Leader Cards) until I have enough pictures. So far I only have one picture from Euromotorsport / 1994 - Lavaggi at Detroit- and he is in a Lola T9200, so don't trust any of these informations.

#293 malvi

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 21:27

to gbl
You`re right - I have picture of Lavaggis car too - definitely 92 Lola( In race report it is listed as 93 car,but in performance chart as 92).
Posted Image
This chart seems pretty accurate for me...(Only DNQrs are not listed).
Have fun
From 1994 Autocourse CART Yearbook.

#294 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 20:07

Hi guys

I'm trying to catch up with where you've got to on this thread and I've reached the Orbitor/Armstrong/Swingler/Lion cars.

Originally posted by gbl
The car looks similar to the Orbiter but not 100%,

here's something from trackforum, doesn't sound as if they ever took that car back to Indy:

http://www.trackforu...?threadid=50038

and another quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Sherm Armstrong's in-house car (by Pete Swingler?) in 1981-82...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by malvi
John Mahler`s car-ex Pete Swingler designed and Gary Irvin owned car called Lion SR2 in 1983(Mahler probably redesigned that car a bit).
Posted Image
Mahler`s Lion(only car bumped in 1983 by Firestone`s last minute run).

So the Orbitor appears in 1980 (three of them, I believe), then the "Armstrong" appears in 1981 (raced at Phoenix - I don't know where else it appeared), then the "Swingler" appears at Indy in 1982 for Irvin then the "Lion" appears at Indy in 1983 owned by Irwin, driven by Mahler.

How related are these cars? Was the Armstrong an Orbitor or was it a new Swingler-built car? Was the Swingler the same car as the Armstrong? Was the Lion the same car as the Swingler? Do we know?

Allen

PS Where is the quote 'Again, Sherm Armstrong's in-house car (by Pete Swingler?) in 1981-82...' from?

#295 gbl

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 21:14

The last quote was from Trackforum, somewhere...

The March and the Armstrong have to be different cars.
The Swingler/Lion is also a separate car:

http://www.can-am-ca...2&idproduct=207

#296 malvi

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 04:57

Swingler 82 and Lion 83 was the same car.
I think Grant King`s involvement explains why they call this thing Lion in 1983(remember Kingfish or Dragon?)

#297 gbl

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 07:02

Never thought about Grant King, makes sense...

I have a few unidentified cars from Indy 500 1988:

#28/#82 Pancho Carter / Hardee's / March 88/86-Buick -> Machinists car?

#36 Harry Sauce / Mergard-Conseco / March 87-Cosworth -> Donald Mergard car?

# 46 Gary Bettenhausen / Scheid Tire Center / March 87-Cosworth -> Pace Racing car that Derek Daly drove in 1987?

#298 malvi

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 17:13

Some quick,but very interesting,new 1981 information.
#71 Frey-Spirit of Colorado - car owner Tom Frantz
#79 Halsmer-Hubler Chevrolet/KISS 99 Spl - owner Bill Alsup(to be exact,entrant was Colonial Bread/Agajanian & Nelson/Alsup Racing) - i had some doubts before...
#95 and #96 Kraco sponsored old Wildcats - owner Cannon Racing
#99 Kraco sponsored PC7 - owner Kraco Enterprises
#33 Theodore sponsored Schuppan`s McLaren - owner Vern Schuppan (I should know it...)
#38 & 39 Karl - owner/entrant William R. Compton(owner of Tonco Trailer???)
source:1981 Indy 500 Official program
to gbl
i do not know answers to your questions about 88 indy yet , but more interesting is coming...

#299 malvi

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 18:19

some 88-89 new information
Protofab Racing - owner Charles Selix
Andale Racing - owner Bernard Jourdain

1984
American Dream Racing - owner was San Diego real estate magnate Walter Wolf(he was also brother-in law of Phil Caliva) Caliva was second ADR driver at Indy,but DNQ.

Primus Racing - owners Kneifel and his stepfather Dr. L.A.Pesch.

W.I.T. Racing - owner was Floridan Pepe Romero of course (Hungness calls it mysterious syndicate headed by Pepe Romero!!).
Story/mess behind this Indy entry.
W.I.T .Team did not entered his car(March 83C )at the right time -entries closed at midnight April6. (Could the one reason be Emmo`s unexperience at big ovals???) and they purchased the GTS entry of Loquastos #86 PC9B.(this produced that W.I.T.& GTS mess).When arrived W.I.T. new March 84C,they had to bought another entry space from Rolla Vollstedt (#17 Mark Alderson M83C).

Canadian Tire Racing Team owner/headman was David Billes.

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#300 gbl

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 19:46

Now that's a mess...

-Chales Selix: co-owner of Kenny Bernsteins team in 88?
-So all 1984 GTS racing entries are W.I.T. Racing - told you so :) They also practiced a M83C at Indy, was that their own car or the Vollstedt car?
-#79 Halsmer: This is from www.arcieroracing.com

In 1981 he formed his first Indycar team, and today he remains one of the longest-running franchise owners within the CART FedEx Championship Series.



I also have an old starting grid from www.indy500.com calling it an Arciero entry (and they had the same sponsors for 1982)

-#33 Schuppan: he was also the chief mechanic for the car. But I've not heard about him being a team owner? If so then who owned the #33 Eagle that Desiree Wilson ran in 1982?

-#38 Karl: William R Compton is also listed for 1979 and 1980. I guess he was the money man behind the operation, Karl himself modified the car.