Jump to content


Photo

USAC, CART and Champ Car history


  • Please log in to reply
2626 replies to this topic

#351 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 13 July 2005 - 21:49

Something i can add about Hopkins & 80(the last one?)Lightning according G.Kirby.

Veteran team owner Lindsey Hopkins ran a variety of cars in 80 with Parsons,Haywood and Guthrie doing the driving. Hopkins commissioned an enterly new Lightning ground-effect chassis which was built in California by Dave Klym`s FabCar outfit and designed by young Super-Vee driver David Burns...The new car was an aesthetic delight and its potential was obvious but a series of problems with its special transmission and a wreck at Pocono stalemated the car`s development. Those difficulties forced the team to run an old Offy powered car although they also tried hard to develop the 209cu ins turbo ChevyV6 and even experimented with turbo V8...
This Ontario 79 car looks for me very similar to this 80 car. Wasn`t there something between 77/78 and 80 Lightning???

to gbl
@malvi: You mention Eagle 8101 and 8109 sold to Jet Engineering and 8102 sold to Jamieson Racing. This site mentions 8102 and 8109 as Jet Engineering cars

I only following an old trackforum story...

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:18.


Advertisement

#352 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 14 July 2005 - 19:23

to gbl
I try to correct a bit your Indy 500 results according Hungness yearbooks and add some comments as well as i can.(Your remark thing is very good :up: - keep it if you have some doubts).
I start from 1987(the last Hungness i have at the moment) and it is quite easy too.

Teams: #76 entrant was George N. Walther(Salt`s father)-hi was back over six years.
The original car they had was ex Morales(Moran destroyed it in 5/7, then they bought the second M86C from Truesports.
Sandy Racing Inc #97 is correct entrant - these guys were Tom Bigelow`s USAC midget owners from West-Lafayette,Indiana(originally this car should be Bigelow`s who had some financial problems and rumored Miaskiewitcz payd $50000 for a chance to DNQ).This M86c was actually ex Machinist Union.
Elmer Fields` (car dealer from California) oldest car in this year - M85C was ex Leader Card machine.

Cars:#42 Lewis` backup was March 86C(#24 was M87C).
Some additions: Mears even tried PC15(#8 or actually #8T) and Sneva tried Cosworth engine(#33/33T).
#65 ,#9 as well #40 were all twin backup`s and run as 56T-Gary B, 21T Rutherford and#20T Fittipaldi(Cogan tried it once as well).
Dobson`s March86c was ex Kraco car and Tony Bettenhausen`s M86C was ex Gohr/Hammond`s.

#353 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 14 July 2005 - 20:40

The Walthers must have ran some sort of *together*. George Walther also bought the Penske chassis. But the March should have been the same used by Todd Walther the next year. And Phil Krueger also ran in the Penske, so it's hard to keep them separate. The Harrington Indy entry is also not mentioned as a Walther entry, but given the driver/car/number combination and the similar look they have to be connected.
Remarks are only set where I'm totally lost. All nonstarters rely on the trackside report and I cannot guarrentee this information without pictures. From 1987 I have pictures of Swindell, Ongais, Mears in a Penske and Crawford and Sneva crashed.

#354 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 16 July 2005 - 18:42

Originally posted by gbl

I have a few unidentified cars from Indy 500 1988:

#28/#82 Pancho Carter / Hardee's / March 88/86-Buick -> Machinists car?
No- Pace Electronics or Pace Racing owned by Patrick Kehoe

#36 Harry Sauce / Mergard-Conseco / March 87-Cosworth -> Donald Mergard car?
Yes

# 46 Gary Bettenhausen / Scheid Tire Center / March 87-Cosworth -> Pace Racing car that Derek Daly drove in 1987? [/B]

Yes ex Daly car - team was Scheid Racing owned by Indianapolis tire magnate Roy Scheid.

Some 1985 Indy corrections:
#50 & #51 entrant Purcell Racing Inc
#69 Little Kings/Vertex Assurance Express - entrant Indy Auto Racing Ltd(Hoffman brothers)-they called his team with this name 83-85. car was March 83C-Cosworth
Line Renaissance team usually called Karl-Nadeu Racing. March 83C is correct.
#42 was Mergard`s car March 84C is correct.

Something very interesting from 1986 by Hungness...
A special Indy-only, full-fledged factory effort from March Engineering and Buick Motorsports became reality. Danny Ongais, whose Interscope operation finally went belly up, would handle Robin Herd`s(March principal) GM Goodwrench-sponsored car and a second machine,to be backed by ASC(American Sunroof Company) was testined for IMSA Buick hotshoe John Paul Jr.
So Ongais & Paul/Crawford were teammates - Chief mechs were Keith Leighton(Ongais) and Roman Kuzma(Paul/Crawford) and team boss was Robin Herd. Only thing i do not know how to call this team?? In entry list Paul/Crawford car entrant is Team ASC and Ongais` car entrant is Panavision.

The"Knight Rider" was part owner of Provimi Racing only in 1986.
J.P. Racing should be mean Jake Possell Racing(C.R.Possell`s shorter name).

#355 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 25 July 2005 - 17:38

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gbl
[B]The Walthers must have ran some sort of *together*. George Walther also bought the Penske chassis. But the March should have been the same used by Todd Walther the next year. And Phil Krueger also ran in the Penske, so it's hard to keep them separate. The Harrington Indy entry is also not mentioned as a Walther entry, but given the driver/car/number combination and the similar look they have to be connected.

Some new information and some corrections...
...three more new teams Stoops Racing, Todd Walther Racing and David Mann Motorsports also appeared in 1989... Todd Walther Racing debuted at Michigan with near-tragic results,as popular Phil Krueger was involved in a serious crash. Later Scott Harrington drove for the team at Mid-Ohio,Road America and Laguna Seca,but mechanical problems kept him out of all by the Road America race (Men & Machines of Indy Car Racing 1989).
According Hungness, Men & Machines and media guides i can say between 1987-1991 every #76/77 was Georg N. Walther`s(Dayton-Walther) entry and every #44 was Todd & Lynn`s. Makes sense for me...

1984 only Giacomelli`s car(Theodore T84) entrant was Teddy Yip`s Theodore Racing.
Crawford`s(Theodore T83) team was Ed Wachs Motorsport owned by Eddie(or Ed) Wachs.

#356 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 25 July 2005 - 21:28

You are right about George/Todd Walther, I've found out the same, The March was chassis number 09.

David Hasselhoff must have joint Provimi in 1985; I have a picture from Miami 1985 with "Race for life" and "David Hasselhoff, Aat Groenevelt" written on the side pod.

The Theodore story seems to be strange. It could have been a Theodore entry with Ed Wachs buying the name of the entry, ran a sub team etc. Or Ed Wachs bought the car from Bignotti and it was really 100% independent.

#357 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 26 July 2005 - 18:10

to gbl
Just some additions...

David Hasselhoff must have joint Provimi in 1985; I have a picture from Miami 1985 with "Race for life" and "David Hasselhoff, Aat Groenevelt" written on the side pod.

I`m pretty sure #40 ,65 and 9 were only USAC numbers and run only as T-cars.

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:18.


#358 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 26 July 2005 - 18:13

All Images from Hungness 87.
Hasselhoff story agein...
Posted Image
Indy Racing magazine January 1986

#359 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,927 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 26 July 2005 - 18:15

Bob Fernley was Bobby Howlings' ex partner who, IIRC, took over the Theodore Indy cars and then moved on to the March 847 Can-Am project. I think he was involved with Wachs and intended to run a car for him in Can-Am.

Allen

Advertisement

#360 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 30 July 2005 - 07:57

to gbl & co
Some 1984 indy corrections/additions/questions
In Long Beach & Phoenix Teddy Yip run 83 type Theodore Chassis MN21.
Why on the nose of this car is Bill Jamieson Racing Team logo??? Does anybody knows any connections between Jamieson and Yip???
Ganassi in March-like Wildcat Mk10

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:19.


#361 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 30 July 2005 - 08:16

Theodore Racing and Wachs Motorsports were too very different teams.
Theodore Racing -owner:Teddy Yip, Crew chief:Julian Randles, Chief mech:John Barnes, team base:Indianapolis,Indiana. This team closed his doors after Indy forever.
Ed Wachs Motorsports -owner Eddie Wachs, Team manager: Bob Fernley, Chief mech: John Conel, team base: Chicago,Illinois. No proof about Bignotti deal, but make sense...

Theodore Racing Cosworth builder was Judd and Wachs Racing Cosworth`s come from Bignotti.

Teddy Yip had also "special" consultant and supervisor called Bobby Unser who fired most of the crew(including team managers Julian Randles and Jeff Hazel) after Phoenix where Giacomelli was unable to make a qualifying attempt and put John Barnes in charge...

#362 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 31 July 2005 - 20:18

From Gordon Kirby's 1984 season review:

"Bruno Giacomelli started the year in a brand new Theodore, but the team came apart at the scrams during the month of may"

Where does your information came from? Maybe new chassis but still a 83 model???

Here's something from Long Beach:

http://www.thegaffer.../autos/5000.php

And Phoenix:

Posted Image


Looks similar but it is hard to tell. Ed Wachs had two cars, on with road racing body work and one in speedway trim. Yip probably the same situation so it could be difficult to tell things apart.

#363 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 31 July 2005 - 21:48

to gbl
My source is Indy Car Racing Magazine - June 84 - chassis numbers are listed there, but hard to say how accurate they are.
Here is Crawford in Indy with Wachs` 83 type Theodore(MN20) According ICR Magazine they run the same chassis in every race they participate and in Indy they had only one car.
This car is obviously different then Yip`s Indy mount and seems to me very similar to your Long Beach #44 Theodore.

Some more images from 84
Ferguson in Tom Hess Eagle83-Cosworth(chassis 05 by ICR)
This team definitely had only one Eagle,run in Indy as #31 but in entry list as #51(#31 was taken before by Newman-Haas for his Andretti backup - actually run as 3T).I guess this produced this #51/31 mess.

Karl in his own Wildcat VIII(?)-Cosworth

Krisiloff in Center Line Racing Eagle83-Chevy presumably the same car Morton(#85)drove in Long Beach - chassis 03 by ICR and listed as BCV/Center Line Racing.( Chevy built/prepared by Buttera and Capps).
All images from Hungness 84

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:20.


#364 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 01 August 2005 - 18:46

About the ex-Andretti Karl Wildcat VIII for 1983:

"Jerry, who ran an air commuter service from Harrisburg to New York City,
had arranged a deal with Jack Rhoades. The 1981 Wildcat Chip Ganassi
had driven in the 1982 "500" was sitting in one of the old wooden
Speedway garages and Rhoades had lost interest in racing the car.
I'm working from memory here, but I believe Jerry had arranged to trade
a helicopter to Rhoades for the Wildcat."

Autocourse sometimes reports a VIIIB for Rhoades, but all pictures so far show a VIII. They must have had more than one car.

I also have a few chassis numbers for 1984 but Hugness and Indy Car Racing differ quite often, so it is not reliable.

The #78 second Ed Wachs car was listed as a backup and I was not sure if it appeared at the track or not.

#365 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 02 August 2005 - 18:28

to gbl
Unfortunately you ar right about Hungness & ICR - chassis numbers are too different to be reliable, but it`s a best info available at the moment.(I trust Hungness bit more...).

About Theodores: according ICR Magazine only 2 Indy-type Theodores was built in 1983 for Bignotti but no less than 5 Theodores(83-84 types) were entered for Indy 500 1984(2 by Wachs and 3 by Yip).
Until 1985 Indy entry fee was $1000(at least in the beginning of 80s) and some car owners entered non-existing cars with purpose to sell entry space later and make an easy $. This produced 109 entries in 1982 - actually 82 cars on track, 1983 - 93 entries - 75 cars on track and absolute record in 1984 - 117 entries - 87 cars on track. To avoid such a abnormal thing USAC officials raised entry fee up to $3000 and in 1985 were listed 79 entries and 68 cars arrived to speedway.
I `m sure about only 3 Theodore indy cars: 2 - 83 type and 1 - 84 type. Maybe somebody knows how many indy Theodore`s were built at all???

Some minor corrections, opinions and images.
In 1981 Richmond bought a ride from Foyt, not a car. By USAC rules this move was "late driver change" and Tim had to start from last row. Also chief mech was Jack Starne who was very long time Foyt`s wrench.
Mach I Racing owner was Robert J. Schultz.(This name was always on the side of the car too).

Believe it or not 1988 Hardee`s sponsored Carter entrant was BC Pace Racing owned by Patrick Kehoe (Ron Buckner mentioned as John T. Malloy !! agein on the side of the car.
I guess he should be some sort of sponsor/moneyman like Malcolm Konner (Chevrolet dealer) , or Thomas W. Barrett. Maybe somebody knows?
Any comments,corrections,additions,disprovements????

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:20.


#366 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 02 August 2005 - 21:11

Robert J. Schultz was the owner of S&M Electric and helped getting Richmond into CART.
The Vukovich picture is from Indy (see the USAC sticker).

#367 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 03 August 2005 - 19:13

Originally posted by gbl
Robert J. Schultz was the owner of S&M Electric and helped getting Richmond into CART.
The Vukovich picture is from Indy (see the USAC sticker).

My opinion about about Mach 1 Racing of course was "provocative" and maybe I am totally wrong about that , but i saw in different places more than 3-4 times this car called "Schultz car".
Who was Richmonds car owner? Bob Tezak? - barely. Richmond himself - ?
I know about Nascar team called Mach 1 Racing , founded in 1979 and owned by Hollywood stuntman Hal Needham and actor Burt Reynolds. Any connections ??.
Definitely Schultz was involved in Mach 1 operation in 80 and 81 but how???
[I have to correct one mistake ,made by myself : PC7 owned by Mahler`s team,should be original Penske. Bill Finley built for Intercomp Racing a PC 6 copy called Finley or Finley PC6.
by Kirby...
(1980)Mahler raced an old Eagle-Offy and a new car that was a replica of a Penske PC6 fitted with an Offy engine. This PC6 replica was built in Indianapolis by Bill Finley and was a beautifully finished machine. Although he never went the distance with either car "Dr John" was a welcome addition to the fields and also ran a car in the California 500 for rookie Chip Mead and in Mexico for rookie Juan Carlos Bolanos. Another Eagle was run in Mexico City by Shade Tree Racing for rookie Michel Jourdain. Mahler`s team called sometimes also PWS Racing (by Parts Washer Service i guess).

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:21.


#368 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 03 August 2005 - 20:49

I just searched the net a little bit and found this great site, check out the picture of the unpainted car and read the article for his career:

http://www.netpitpas...ss/amyspics.htm

I think there's also something in the Autocourse book about Robert Schultz, but I'm too lazy at the moment :)

#369 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 03 August 2005 - 23:21

Yep, i read this article before ,searched today, but did not found.
"...owned by Schultz..."

Something i found about Patrick Kehoe.
1979-1985 existed such a CART official special award as "Most Persistent Car Owner"
This award went in 1985 to Patrick Kehoe (Pace Electronics or Pace Racing).
1984 - Pat Patrick
1983 - Frank Arciero
1982 - I.A.M.A.W. (Machinists Union)
1981 - Bobby Hillin (Longhorn)
1980 - Bill Tempero
1979 - Tom Frantz & Gus Hoffman

#370 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 05 August 2005 - 17:02

to gbl & co
some more 1984 Indy additions/corrections
Provimi team`s backup, looks like March 83C for me - but Daly behind the wheel.

I can add also Jet Engineering backup.
Original caption: " Ed Pimm had very few miles in his #83 Jet backup"

to gbl - what do you think? -
i also keep separately "regular" PC10 and VDS PC10
Here is VDS PC 10(i do not know where-Phoenix,LB,pre-season?).Image from ICR mag. june 1984.
This car has been built entirely in the VDS team`s Midland shop - only chassis was PC10s, bodywork and suspension are all-new. Designer was John Ward(ex Longhorn&Eagle).
Paul jr destroyed this car(#12 of course) on may 13.
VDS`backup was original PC10
12,12T or USAC #15
Another VDS PC10 was sold/built?? to/for Tom Mitchell`s Circle Bar Team
Also I can add some ex`s:
#50 ex Jim Hall(? - by Hungness)
#24 ex Truesports(Rahal)
#27 ex Galles
#31 ex Simon
#66 ex Brayton
Also Foyt bought Galles spare car(originally #7T) for Rutherford(22nd place/#84) after his own Chevy engined #84 failed to qualify.
All images(exept#3) from Hungness 1984

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:21.


#371 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 05 August 2005 - 21:33

The Daly car is a 83C. (Or maybe the 82/83 car?)

I've never seen a picture of the VDS so far, had no idea it looked so different. Usually I think the following way: If a replica is build by someone else then I list it under the new "manufacturer" like "Finley PC-6". If a car is modified I still list it under the original car type since it would be hard to decide when a modification is worth enough to get an own name (unless it is very commonly used - I'm still not 100% sure about the Lola / Colt story from the early 70's). John Mahler's 1979 Eagle is still listed as the Eagle 7228 although it looks very different (maybe that's is the car called "Bear" after all?) Now there are some highly modified cars where I would like to add a remark. I list Jerry Karl's McLaren as a M16C Karl since it should describe the situation as best as possible. My Autosport articles just call the VDS car a modified Penske PC-10. I would now list the VDS car, a Penske PC-10/82 VDS - are you happy with that :drunk:
Artemis has a small image of the Arciero car at Las Vegas, doesn't look too different, do I also have to rename it?

#372 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 06 August 2005 - 02:55

to gbl
Arciero had in 1984 Indy 2 identical "original"-i think PC10s.
Nice image in Arciero`s website:
http://www.arcierora...d/arciero01.jpg[/url]

Some more 84 dnq-rs
Ciprich-March83C-Cosworth

Krueger-March83C-Cosworth

from Hungness 84

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:22.


#373 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 06 August 2005 - 03:06

[QUOTE]Originally posted by malvi
[B]to gbl
Arciero had in 1984 Indy 2 identical "original"-i think PC10s.
Nice image in Arciero`s website:
http://www.arcierora...d/arciero01.jpg

By Hungness: Halsmer debuted the Arciero/Colonial #11 PC10/Cosworth backup(car shown on this pic,i guess)making it the 76th different car to practice this month(may 13).The replacement Penske featured underbody modifications by designer Roman Slobodynsky and Halsmer optimistically dubbed the chassis a "Ro-March".

#374 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 06 August 2005 - 17:42

For Las Vegas the car is called an Arciero MP10.

#375 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 14 August 2005 - 11:43

All images from Hungness 82
Comments,additions?

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:22.


#376 Herbert

Herbert
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 14 August 2005 - 14:54

"Phil Krueger in Joe Hunt owned car, but what is it??? In entry list this thing called Hunt-Penske-Chevy V8."

On page 90 of the Hungness -Yearbook the car is described as #89 Crysen McLaren-Chevy", also on page 44 the car is called a McLaren.

I guess the car is a modified McLaren which a narrower nose-cone and added wing-sidepods, somehow like the Karl-McLaren.

#377 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 14 August 2005 - 15:36

Presumably Krueger`s weird mount still the same car we discussed here before, but after repairing...
[Krueger spent the winter building this car out of old McLaren and Penske pieces only to destroy the car at the Phoenix season opener...(he added to this hybrid semi-ground effects as well).
Kruger was also well known mechanic - later he worked for Raynor team as chief mech.

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:22.


#378 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 14 August 2005 - 22:18

#72: yes, Wildcat VIII
#98: newer PC/ copy - did he have two???

same car as here?

http://www.can-am-ca...=2&idproduct=24

-> this add still makes me think that the car actually ended up as the McElreath called PC7 copy...

#379 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:50

to gbl
#98: newer PC/ copy - did he have two??? Actually i meant: newer(not 73 car) PC7 copy.

some more from 1982
[Schuppan in Brayton`s March81C??? - not such a car in original entry list.
Brayton team had also PC7 and Wildcat MkVIII , but on images "missed the show" section both wear #36.

Dick Simon drove Watson`s PC7 copy through all month.

All image from Hungness 1982

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:23.


Advertisement

#380 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:52

to gbl
#98: newer PC/ copy - did he have two??? Actually i meant: newer(not 73 car) PC7 copy.

Dick Simon drove Watson`s PC7 copy through all month.

All images from Hungness 1982

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:23.


#381 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:52

to gbl
#98: newer PC/ copy - did he have two??? Actually i meant: newer(not 73 car) PC7 copy.
Schuppan in Brayton`s March81C??? - not such a car in original entry list.
Brayton team had also PC7 and Wildcat MkVIII , but on images "missed the show" section both wear #36.

Dick Simon drove Watson`s PC7 copy through all month.

All images from Hungness 1982

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:23.


#382 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:52

to gbl
Dick Simon drove Watson`s PC7 copy through all month.

All images from Hungness 1982

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:24.


#383 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:58

Oops - could anyone from hosts can delete multiple posts.

#384 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 16 August 2005 - 21:37

The Armstrong car was quite modified for 1982.

Here are the 3 Kraco Penskes, one might be a PC9:

http://www.marchives...rch83cKraco.jpg

I have also finally update my 70ies section, I can now continue with the details.

#385 Herbert

Herbert
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 21 August 2005 - 21:57

Is there anyone who got an idea why the back-up car by Gohr Distributing (#65) often was entered at Indy under the name Brother Racing wheras the #56 Genesee Beer Wagon was always entered by Gohr.

This was at least done in 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987. Don't know about earlier years.

#386 Gert

Gert
  • Member

  • 209 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 22 August 2005 - 15:47

Originally posted by Herbert
Is there anyone who got an idea why the back-up car by Gohr Distributing (#65) often was entered at Indy under the name Brother Racing wheras the #56 Genesee Beer Wagon was always entered by Gohr.

This was at least done in 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987. Don't know about earlier years.


No idea why, really...

In 1983 there is no #65 on the entry list (at least not in the official program)
Both #56 and #58 are entered by Gohr Distributing Co., Inc.

In 1984, car name for #56 &nd #58 is Genesee Beer Wagon, both are entered by Gohr Distributing, also backups #56T and #58T (but wihtout car name)
There's also a #65 that year, entered by Brothers racing, it has no car name specified...

in 1985 #56 Genesee Beer Wagon entered by Gohr Racing, and #65 Genesee Beer Wagon entered by Brothers Racing.

Exactly the same in 1986...

All info from the Indy 500 Official Programs

#387 Gert

Gert
  • Member

  • 209 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 22 August 2005 - 15:50

While browsing the entry list in the 1986 Indy program, I found

#1, #1T and #4, #4T cars entered by Penske Cars Ltd. for Danny Sullivan and Rick Mears respectively,
and also #11 and #11T entered for Al Unser, Sr. by Penske Cars Ltd-Williams Racing.

Who/what is that Williams-part?

#388 theunions

theunions
  • Member

  • 638 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 23 August 2005 - 08:02

Originally posted by Gert
While browsing the entry list in the 1986 Indy program, I found

#1, #1T and #4, #4T cars entered by Penske Cars Ltd. for Danny Sullivan and Rick Mears respectively,
and also #11 and #11T entered for Al Unser, Sr. by Penske Cars Ltd-Williams Racing.

Who/what is that Williams-part?


Jim (IIRC) Williams - of the "J. Williams Cars" markings found on the Penske rear wing endplates of the period.

#389 brickyard

brickyard
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 23 August 2005 - 22:16

by Kirby:
Krueger spent the winter building this car out of old McLaren and Penske pieces only to destroy the car at the Phoenix season opener...(he added to this hybrid semi-ground effects as well).
Kruger was also well known mechanic - later he worked for Raynor team as chief mech.



I think it's a Penske PC5/77, but it's only a guess that I will try to clarify.

BTW, how many PC5's where built?
And how can we tell that a PC5 it's a PC5 and not a McLaren M24? Sometimes the Russ Polak car of 1980 is a M24 and others it's a PC5, for example.

#390 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 24 August 2005 - 20:23

I think you cannot separat a PC5 from a M24 since it is a 100% copy. Russ Polak had a PC5, I have a picture from 1978 and there is "Penske PC-5" written on the front of the cockpit. I think there were only 1 or 2 cars built.

#391 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 4,927 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 24 August 2005 - 21:08

I recall something in Autosport about "the pair of PC5s" being sold by Penske. So I'd be pretty confident there were two.

#392 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 25 August 2005 - 08:34

No idea, why Hammond`s team(Gohr) entered his backups under Brother Racing banner to Indy in 84-87, but there have to be some good explanation.
As much I understand Joe Hunt`s car (M24,PC5 or both) is something like Jerry Karl`s modified McLaren(not real M16 any more) - both man(Karl & Krueger) figured out , built and added ground-(or semi-ground) effects to his cars and by my guess (at least in statistics) should be separately.

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:24.


#393 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 25 August 2005 - 18:06

Hmmm, as long as a car is still based on a certain tube I'd want to call the car like the original version but with a added name like "Penske PC5 Hunt" just to keep things in line with the all the other very modified older cars (like Bill Finley modified Eagle 72, Bob Fletcher modified Eagle 74 - all with added aerodynamics, and don't even forget the Jack Adams Hawk but is still listed as a Hawk that went through several transitions).

The Kraco cars are hard to identify without side shots (the B-version had different engine cover), but the air intakes at the lower nose are missing so I would go with PC9B in both cases. That would mean that the Kraco team only had 3 PC9B and no PC9 at all.

The Garza car is a 81C.

The Kraco Lightning and the King-Chevy are only listed by Phil Harmes, if no other articles mention them then I'll throw them out.

#394 brickyard

brickyard
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 29 August 2005 - 18:44

Hi,

One adition:

The correct name for Tom Mitchell's team is "Circle Bar Auto Racing, Inc." (confirmed by Mitchell itself). The "Truck Corall" part was only painted in the car to promote his business, not in the team's name.

And one question:

What's the real type name of the current Lola Champ car?
B02/00 or B2K/03? :confused:
I've found both references in many locations, but I think the correct one is B02/00 since the chassis is from 2002, correct?

BTW, does any of you have a photo of the Hoffman's Spyder that Dick Ferguson drove at Michigan in 1979?
What was that car anyway? The team's Eagle modified or a different car?

#395 gbl

gbl
  • Member

  • 450 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 29 August 2005 - 20:07

The Chassis freeze took place in 2002, all cars are B02/00 spec (with smaller changes like the new rear mirrors on the Newman-Haas cars for Montreal etc). Some newer cars are also built but the specification is still B02.Dale Coyne seems to run updated B2K cars. Teams like Forsythe and PKV seem to run some 2002 and 2003 cars while Newman-Haas and RuSport should have 2004 or 2003 ones.

#396 brickyard

brickyard
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 29 August 2005 - 21:34

Thanks gbl, all this makes sense to me.

Acording to one of my sources, the B2K/03 "it's 2000 car with 2002 specifications, that raced in 2003" :drunk:
another one said that "this was the car Lola designed for the 2003 season", and that "the actual car it's a B2K/05"... :stoned: could you believe it?

:lol: Some guys should come here and wype their doubts instead of making fool of themselves inventing things like this, and puting this stuff on so called "serious" sites... :confused: :lol:

BTW, anything about the Spyder?

#397 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 30 August 2005 - 15:58

to brickyard
Joe Saldana`s Spyder-Offy in Indy 1980.
Only Spyder image i saw - source Hungness 1980.
Maybe somebody can add who, why and for what such a thing was designed???

to gbl
some 1983 Indy 500 information.
#66 Parsons 22nd place car was really PC10B - it was new, updated version of last years model, tested heavily by the Penske team. This car was sold to Arciero after Halsmer demolished team original PC10 on May 16.(Really it was Mears` backup #7T or USAC #57).

[

Edited by malvi, 13 April 2011 - 11:24.


#398 brickyard

brickyard
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 30 August 2005 - 16:59

Joe Saldana`s Spyder-Offy in Indy 1980.
Only Spyder image i saw - source Hungness 1980.
Maybe somebody can add who, why and for what such a thing was designed???



Thank you Malvi.
I asked the same question at trackforum and until now that's what I have:

I'm not so sure it wasn't one of Bill Finley's Eagle mods circa 1977. Mahler put one in the show in 79 (the last time Vatis and Finley made it) and I'm pretty sure there were two of them. The photo in the 80 Hungness book sure does look like one. It was a backup for Joe Saldana's PC-7. They had a Lightning too.



I've searched a bit and I've found something. Can this help a little more?

I'm not so sure it's the same car...

#399 malvi

malvi
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 30 August 2005 - 18:30

to brickyard
According to trackforum the car called Spyder really similar to 1977 Bill Finley built and Tassi Vatis owned Eagle(or Fleagle), Krisiloff damaged on May 14. Hmmm... the same car???
Posted Image
Image from Hungness 1977
Maybe somebody can add something wise to put this puzzle together???

Advertisement

#400 brickyard

brickyard
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 30 August 2005 - 18:43

to Malvi

according with latest from Trackforum, the car would be the 1974 Fiore...

I remember looking through a old USAC News from January 1980 in which Frank Fiore was selling everything he owned related to Indy cars. He had a McLaren, Rascar and the Spyder along with numerous parts. I believe Buddie Buys bought everything and I know Frank Weiss totaled one of the car at Indy in 1980. I believe the spyder was same car that Denny Zimmerman won rookie of the year with in 1971 and Al Loquasto hit the wall with in 1972. Hopefully this helps some.



and

1974 Spyder Indy car built by Frank Fiore see linkhttp://www.sherline.com/catalog7.pdf Read page two and photo of car on last page. http://www.sherline.com/catalog7.pdf



It's getting even more interesting...