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McLaren M1s


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#1 Ted Walker

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 07:48

As a follow on from the great Zerex thread how about looking at M1s ???? How many were built?? M1 M1A,B and C. John Coundley raced a very early car here in the UK...

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#2 HEROS

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 07:57

I hope to have understood what you look for, so you can take a look to
the following link :

http://www.bruce-mclaren.com/main.htm

There is some pics and a team cars history.

#3 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 09:05

Having read the immaculately researched McLaren Trust web site, I'm as confused as ever about the very first McLarens. I had been under the impression that the first M1A raced for a while before clones were built by Elva but the 'Team Cars' page implies 64-1 and 64-2 were built at roughly the same time but then (mistakenly?) calls 64-2 a M1B.

Ted - I think this thread is a good idea to sort out exactly what was built in the 12 months after the first M1A was completed. Various sources say 24 production M1As were built but do we need to add the works car(s) to that number?

Allen

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 09:59

Perhaps BMMR/1 and /2 were different entities from the 64/1 and 64/2 production cars?

#5 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 14:07

If you set out on this long and rocky road it's most important not to confuse the prototype BMcLMR-built works cars with the Elva/Trojan production run.

One car whose fate has interested me for a long time is the M1B - I think - whose chassis became the basis of the weird Ikenga show/road car styling project. Something in me water connected this with Keith St John, Ken Shepherd (Sheppard?) Sports Cars and the purple-painted Radio London McLaren which often starred in Brands Hatch clubbies...but I never got to the bottom of this one.

DCN

#6 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 14:56

Originally posted by Doug Nye
If you set out on this long and rocky road it's most important not to confuse the prototype BMcLMR-built works cars with the Elva/Trojan production run.

"Cars", you say, not "car". So how many M1As were built by BMcLMRL? Was the M1B prototype actually built before the end of 1964, so earning itself a /64 chassis plate? I think we should be told...

(assuming somebody knows)

Allen

#7 Ted Walker

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 15:27

I think we need to talk about ALL the cars Trojan built and works built cars from the car whos photos I put on the Zerex thread ,to the M1Cs

#8 Duncan Fox

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Posted 28 March 2005 - 20:11

Ted, over at the Zerex thread you said your shots were taken by Eddie State, Could that be Alan Stait ? he was a machinist at McLarens. This thread is one I can contribute to. Ill come back to it this evening.

#9 Ted Walker

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 08:26

Duncan. Its his brother.I think they both might have worked there at the same time

#10 Rosemayer

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 17:25

Here you are Ted:

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#11 Ted Walker

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 18:53

Thanks for that Rosemayer,I hope to be able to do that before long !!!!!!!!!!

#12 Rosemayer

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 19:25

I almost forgot the 2nd one.Maybe its my age but they don't make race cars that beautiful now.


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#13 billthekat

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 21:42

Many years ago, at some point in the early 1970s, I thought I would see about sorting out the McLaren M1 series cars in the USA and Canada. I have no idea where my notes are from that little project, but I wish I did. I recall being able to somehow obtain a list of the Elva production numbers and initial customers. I also did the same with the M6 and M8/M12 series in the USA/Canada. In fact, I think I did them first and then looked at the M1 series. I also had some Elva production information made avalilable which helped. The works cars were a bit trickier, but back then you could take a look at the chassis plate and not get beaned on the head, especially if you were polite and wearing a press pass.....

Is it just me, or am I alone in thinking aloud as just why this sort of thing really hasn't been done, or at least the material made available? Thank you, Ted, for bringing this topic up.

#14 rosemeyer

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Posted 29 March 2005 - 23:59

billthekat:

Yes bill we need to get to the bottom of this discusion these were great cars and we need to know the history to pass on to our siblings.

#15 Rosemayer

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Posted 30 March 2005 - 19:33

Here is one more.

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#16 Bruce302

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 05:25

My buddy has an M1A that was raced in California, and the car has some very neat history. I'll try and get him to join in and share with you all. He has enough documentation to make a book.

Bruce.

#17 Brian Nordby

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 06:54

I'm all Ears (eyes). :wave:

Brian

#18 Ted Walker

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 08:01

Over the coming weekend I will go through all my material and list all the period owners of M1 variants I can find.

#19 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 10:56

In theory BMcLMRT campaigned/built two sports cars through 1964, the 'Zerex' in its various forms, plus the original true sports McLaren, the works M1 prototype.

Into 1965 according to what they said at the time, Elva Trojan produced 24 customer M1As - owners/drivers of these cars that year including 'Noddy' Coombs (for Graham Hill), Alan Brown, David Prophet, John Coundley, George Wintersteen, Ludwig Heimrath, Charlie Hayes, Bud Gates, Augie Pabst (car burned out at Mosport), Richard Macon, Mike Goth, Ralph Salyer, and so on. The bulbous Turner-body M1Bs were then replicated in production form by Elva Trojan for 1966 and sold in the US as Mark 2s - and the M1C became the 1967 Trojan production model, sold in the US as the Mark 3.

New McLaren driver names appearing in USRRC events of 1966 included Lothar Motchenbacher of Van Nuys, Joe Starkey of Dallas, Jim Roe of Scottsdale, Bud Morley of Denver, Mason O'Keefe of Houston, Jerry Entin of Beverley Hills, Bill Amick of Portland, John Cannon of Pasadena, Chuck Parsons of Carmel, Dick Brown of Birmingham (Michigan), and Brooke Doran (Burket, Indiana).

In 1967 new McLaren names included Sam Posey (Sharon, Conn), Skip Scott (Devon, Pa), Jay Hills (LA), Jim Adams (Studio City, CA), Masten Gregory (NYC), Ted Peterson (Newport Beach) and Peter Revson (NYC)...and more...

As you will all be well aware the 1966 M6A works cars and their M6B production cousins for 1967 then launched the monocoque McLaren sports car line. Individual histories become an exceedingly tangled web...

DCN

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#20 billthekat

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 13:50

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Individual histories become an exceedingly tangled web...


Amen to that statement.....

DCN mentions one small item which caused no end of a muddle Back Then -- and for me later on, in that the customer McLarens in the USofA were usually referred to as the Mk 1, Mk 2, and Mk 3 (or Mks I, II, and III in some sources) rather than M1A, M1B or M1C. Looking at the names mentioned as receiving a M1 series car in America, I am doing the head nod since at some point I had something on each car.

By 1974 or 1975, about the time I made the effort to look at the McLaren cars, it was such a mess sorting out what and when and where that many of my gaps simply sat there and never got filled -- and I am not talking about the Gekko car traders, but just who raced what in the USRRC or the Can-Am in many cases. I recall having more than a few surprises when what I thought was the case didn't match my tracking charts -- based upon chassis numbers several of us had actually eye-balled in the paddocks. I do remember thinking that none of these folks would ever be less than truthful, would they?

Isn't it just amazing how many rocks have yet to kicked over and how many stories have yet to be told? I always assumed that the M1 series had been sorted out in fashion and I simply was not one of those "in the know."

Is this fun or what?

#21 Rosemayer

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 15:29

One more.

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#22 Ted Walker

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 15:45

Bob Rose hillclimbed a car early on Reg No 500 KRA. This is the car being used in Historics by Chris Phillips.

#23 Pedro 917

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 19:11

Some pictures from a support race line up of the Spa Classic 6 hours event 2003 :

John Bladon in a McLaren M1 :

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#24 Pedro 917

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 19:14

and German Thomas Fischer in a McLaren M1C :

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#25 Pedro 917

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 19:32

A M1B driven by Wilson/Pilkington at the Spa Classic 6 hours event 2004 :

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#26 Pedro 917

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 19:56

and a McLaren M1B-C driven by Glen Price at the Nürburgring Old Timer GP 2003 :

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#27 Ted Walker

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 20:47

It would be nice to know the chassis Nos of the cars in the photos. The white car is the exBob Rose car as mentioned in my earlier thread. I should have asked John Bladon when |I saw him on Sunday.

#28 David McKinney

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 21:01

The Bob Rose M1B was 30-09
I thought I had a note somewhere of Bladon's c/no, but can't find it...

#29 Chad Raynal

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 23:29

Hello All,

My best buddy (Bruce302) alerted me to this forum, and this McLaren M1 discussion. I'll provide a bit of history known about my car, then perhaps follow up with more specifics and pics when I have a chance to figure out how to do so.... and when I get a chance to scan the applicable material. I don't want to infringe on any copyright laws, so does anyone have a definitive knowledge of what can and should be posted to such a forum?

Here goes with some history of my car (Duncan Fox, who I've had the pleasure to meet, and who I see posting to this list, probably knows even more about my can than I)...

McLaren: 1965 M1A/Mk1, Chassis #20/09

* This car was purchased by Chic Vandagriff of Hollywood Sport Cars in 1965.

* Although it was purchased as an M1a, with corresponding bodywork, it was never run with M1a bodywork (I have pics of it's arrival at Hollywood Sport Cars).

* Upon receiving the car at Hollywood Sport Cars, Doane Spencer (crew chief), began adding his own touches to the car. These included:
- Changes to the roll bar
- Skinned the entire belly of the car, and lower sills/fuel cells in aluminum.
- Chromed the suspension pieces (Doane was already a Hot Rod legend at the time, and dutifully carried out the “if it don’t go, chrome it” axiom.
- Installed a dry-sumped, 289 Ford V8, with cross-ram Weber induction (as ran at the inaugural Can-Am race in St. Jovite Canada)
- 289 Ford engines made as much as 490hp, as recorded on an Autolite dyno, but lacked reliability (As bad as 7 engines in 3 days (Times Grand Prix weekend, 1967).

* HSC was getting support from Ford on their engines. One of the only Can-Am cars receiving such support. Dan Gurney got the most support, with larger displacement motors.

* HSC had a good connection at Firestone at the time, and used their tires accordingly.
- The tires got wider with nearly every race.
- The rear bodywork got wider accordingly. These changes can still be seen on the car.
- Sunbeam Tiger fans: All Tiger fans MUST know that the Tiger piloted by Jim Adams, masterminded by Doane Spencer and the staff at HSC, Tiger was the most successful racing Tiger of the period. A Sunbeam Tiger surge/overflow tank was also used on this car.. and can still be seen on the car.

* After the 1967 Can-Am season, while testing at Riverside, Jim Adams decided he was done driving this car.

* Car was sold to Ted West (not raced)

* Doug Hooper purchased and ran the car in 1968.

* One of Doug’s sponsors at this time, as noted on the car signage of the time was the Mama’s and the Papa’s.

* Doug Hooper ran the car with a Small Block Chevrolet, and M1C bodywork/adjustable rear wing.

* Doug set a new lap record at Willow Springs with the car.

* While racing at Santa Barbara, Doug had a rear upright fail which sent him into a spin. Upon spinning, the rear wing clipped a guy-wire, which probably saved Doug from being decapitated.

* Doug Hooper ran the car in regional races and at least one USRRC event (Riverside, 1968)

* In the 1970's, this car was converted for street use by Bill Robbins

* Car was restored to Hollywood Sport Cars representation and vintage raced by Ed Ellers in the late 1990’s.

* I've owned the car since 2000.


RACE LIST.. not complete, only those I can verify:

1966 St. Jovite Can-Am (9/11/66) – Jim Adams

1966 Laguna Seca Can-Am/ Monterey Grand Prix (10/16/66) – Jim Adams

1967 Las Vegas USRRC (4/23/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Santa Barbara Road Races (5/28/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Kent/Pacific Raceways USRRC (7/18/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Laguna Seca Can-Am/ Monterey Grand Prix (10/15/1967) – Jim Adams

1968 Riverside USRRC (4/28/1968) – Doug Hooper

#30 WINO

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 23:37

Billthecat!

I fully agree with you on your sentiments when it comes to these overrestored McLarens [or any other competition cars] with owner-drivers who cannot be recognized behind their full-faced helmets/underwear, protected by obscene aftermarket rollbars to pacify the Mrs./the insurance company.

There seems to be a tendency for certain contributors to think that the above posted images are God's gift to TNF. Well, being primarily interested in the original history of these cars [which is what this forum is supposed to be all about], I find these images boring as hell, one of the reasons I don't buy any of the many magazines covering these current events with nauseating detail. They have as much relevance as professional wrestling: forgotten by tomorrow, with the exception of the owner-driver and his silver-plated cup and boosted image. Who cares about the results produced by this kind of racing during the past 30 years? It is one big ego trip, without any historical significance. Unless of course you are one of those young whippersnappers with the urge to use his digital camera on this kind of stuff, and the urge to post it at the earliest pretext. Isn't there a TNF kindergarten version for these eager beavers?

WINO

#31 antonvrs

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 01:16

I'm quite familiar with this car's "middle" history so maybe I can fill it in a little.
Doug Hooper sold it to Mark Dees of "The Miller Dynasty" fame who was a friend of mine, as was Bill Robbins. Bill had owned a number of hot street cars but wanted something special so I put the two of them together and he bought it from Mark. This was in about 1977.
It was a tired old race car with a 366 Chevy on 48mm Weber downdraft carbs and a Hewland LG5 with no internals. Over the next year or so various friends of Bill's, including myself, helped him get it up and running. We ran it in a couple of very minor events at OCIR and Willow Springs and drove it on the street a bit. It then went to the body shop where it got headlights and a Porsche 904 windscreen etc.
After that I did some further sorting and tuning on it to the point that it was relatively docile and reliable for street use- still on Webers. I had a lot of fun with it because whenever somebody wanted a ride, Bill would call me up and ask me to take them! Hell, yes! Somehow I never got a speeding ticket in it but not because I didn't deserve to.
The two photos I hope I've enclosed are one of Bill in the car at the Monterey Historics in about 1981 and one of me a couple of years earlier, just after the street conversion was finished. I have a few more pics if you're interested.
Anton


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Originally posted by Chad Raynal


Hello All,

My best buddy (Bruce302) alerted me to this forum, and this McLaren M1 discussion. I'll provide a bit of history known about my car, then perhaps follow up with more specifics and pics when I have a chance to figure out how to do so.... and when I get a chance to scan the applicable material. I don't want to infringe on any copyright laws, so does anyone have a definitive knowledge of what can and should be posted to such a forum?

Here goes with some history of my car (Duncan Fox, who I've had the pleasure to meet, and who I see posting to this list, probably knows even more about my can than I)...

McLaren: 1965 M1A/Mk1, Chassis #20/09

* This car was purchased by Chic Vandagriff of Hollywood Sport Cars in 1965.

* Although it was purchased as an M1a, with corresponding bodywork, it was never run with M1a bodywork (I have pics of it's arrival at Hollywood Sport Cars).

* Upon receiving the car at Hollywood Sport Cars, Doane Spencer (crew chief), began adding his own touches to the car. These included:
- Changes to the roll bar
- Skinned the entire belly of the car, and lower sills/fuel cells in aluminum.
- Chromed the suspension pieces (Doane was already a Hot Rod legend at the time, and dutifully carried out the “if it don’t go, chrome it” axiom.
- Installed a dry-sumped, 289 Ford V8, with cross-ram Weber induction (as ran at the inaugural Can-Am race in St. Jovite Canada)
- 289 Ford engines made as much as 490hp, as recorded on an Autolite dyno, but lacked reliability (As bad as 7 engines in 3 days (Times Grand Prix weekend, 1967).

* HSC was getting support from Ford on their engines. One of the only Can-Am cars receiving such support. Dan Gurney got the most support, with larger displacement motors.

* HSC had a good connection at Firestone at the time, and used their tires accordingly.
- The tires got wider with nearly every race.
- The rear bodywork got wider accordingly. These changes can still be seen on the car.
- Sunbeam Tiger fans: All Tiger fans MUST know that the Tiger piloted by Jim Adams, masterminded by Doane Spencer and the staff at HSC, Tiger was the most successful racing Tiger of the period. A Sunbeam Tiger surge/overflow tank was also used on this car.. and can still be seen on the car.

* After the 1967 Can-Am season, while testing at Riverside, Jim Adams decided he was done driving this car.

* Car was sold to Ted West (not raced)

* Doug Hooper purchased and ran the car in 1968.

* One of Doug’s sponsors at this time, as noted on the car signage of the time was the Mama’s and the Papa’s.

* Doug Hooper ran the car with a Small Block Chevrolet, and M1C bodywork/adjustable rear wing.

* Doug set a new lap record at Willow Springs with the car.

* While racing at Santa Barbara, Doug had a rear upright fail which sent him into a spin. Upon spinning, the rear wing clipped a guy-wire, which probably saved Doug from being decapitated.

* Doug Hooper ran the car in regional races and at least one USRRC event (Riverside, 1968)

* In the 1970's, this car was converted for street use by Bill Robbins

* Car was restored to Hollywood Sport Cars representation and vintage raced by Ed Ellers in the late 1990’s.

* I've owned the car since 2000.


RACE LIST.. not complete, only those I can verify:

1966 St. Jovite Can-Am (9/11/66) – Jim Adams

1966 Laguna Seca Can-Am/ Monterey Grand Prix (10/16/66) – Jim Adams

1967 Las Vegas USRRC (4/23/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Santa Barbara Road Races (5/28/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Kent/Pacific Raceways USRRC (7/18/67) – Jim Adams

1967 Laguna Seca Can-Am/ Monterey Grand Prix (10/15/1967) – Jim Adams

1968 Riverside USRRC (4/28/1968) – Doug Hooper



#32 Ted Walker

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 06:31

DoI gather from the 2 chassis Nos so far posted that the M1a chassis nos begin with 20- and the M1b begin with 30- ????????

#33 Pedro 917

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 07:43

Originally posted by WINO:

There seems to be a tendency for certain contributors to think that the above posted images are God's gift to TNF. Well, being primarily interested in the original history of these cars [which is what this forum is supposed to be all about], I find these images boring as hell, one of the reasons I don't buy any of the many magazines covering these current events with nauseating detail. They have as much relevance as professional wrestling: forgotten by tomorrow, with the exception of the owner-driver and his silver-plated cup and boosted image. Who cares about the results produced by this kind of racing during the past 30 years? It is one big ego trip, without any historical significance. Unless of course you are one of those young whippersnappers with the urge to use his digital camera on this kind of stuff, and the urge to post it at the earliest pretext. Isn't there a TNF kindergarten version for these eager beavers?


Aaauuuww, that hurts. What a rude awakening....
Sorry if I entered your playground without asking your permission! Talking about an ego trip....
BTW, this enthusiastic and passionate youngster will be 50 next June.
My apologies, once again.

#34 nick stone

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:11

Pedro, I have never seen an M1 and am unlikely to ever have the chance. I love the pictures.

Thank you.

Nick

#35 ian senior

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:19

Originally posted by WINO
Billthecat!

It is one big ego trip, without any historical significance. Unless of course you are one of those young whippersnappers with the urge to use his digital camera on this kind of stuff, and the urge to post it at the earliest pretext. Isn't there a TNF kindergarten version for these eager beavers?

WINO


Oh, come on. Isn't any kind of motor racing essentially an ego trip? I love the sport but it's hardly essential to ensure that life continues.

Some of the cars I love I never saw in action in their heyday. Ideally, I'd want to see them driven by the original driver and on a period circuit, and in a serious race that counted for something. But that just isn't possible, so a pale substitute will have to suffice. I can live with that.

#36 Paul Medici

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:34

Anton and Pedro 917 - great photos - thank you!
.
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#37 Bruce302

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 08:52

Pedro,

No need to apologise. The forum is for all of us isn't it ?
And in another 30 or 40 years, your pics will be well and truely "old" and nostalgic.

I'll take any pics that you or anyone else wants to post here, old or new.

With some luck Chad can post some of the great period pics he has, copywrite permitting.

Bruce.

(Pedro, beat me by a year)

#38 mickj

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 09:44

pedro + anton, neat photos. thanks for sharing them.
mick

#39 David McKinney

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 11:35

Originally posted by Ted Walker
DoI gather from the 2 chassis Nos so far posted that the M1a chassis nos begin with 20- and the M1b begin with 30- ????????

I think the 20- and 30- prefixes were Trojan numbers, ie for 'production' cars
Without checking (some of us have to work!) I think M6Bs started with 50

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#40 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 13:09

As I understand it ...

M1Cs were -40
M6Bs were -50
M12s were -60
M8Cs were -70
M8Es were -80

I don't believe the 1972 "production" M8Fs followed this scheme though. Think they were just "xx-72" or similar.

#41 billthekat

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 14:13

Chad,

Thank you for confirming the sort of information that those of us working on this three and four decades ago encountered -- that teams were not bashful in working on the cars as soon as they hit the shop. And, that they often moved form team to team and then on the usual fate of old racing cars.

I still recall, even after all these years, how surprised we were by the Elva/Trojan chassis numbering system. At a time when chassis numbers were still largely a mystery in GP much less USRRC/Can-Am, the system really had us confused at first until it dawned on us how it worked. Naturally, the work cars were numbered differently, but that we actually understood.

There were three of us trying to track down this sort information, we actually started with the USRRC in 1964, and when we pooled our notes and information and then started making inquiries and doing the research in the mid-1970s, there were gaps that we just never filled in. I truly regret not having those notes because we had no end of information that we had gathered. Interestingly, the three of us did the vast majority of this through the mail and phone calls, since we rarely met face to face over the years we worked together. It was slow, but it worked after a fashion. Oh, one item we tried to track was whose engines were in the cars -- Traco or whatever. we thought that was important. Of the two I worked with, one I have lost track off completely and the other was killed in an aviation accident.

So, anyone game for The McLaren Two-Seater Racing Cars: 1964 to 1972?

#42 Brian Nordby

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 16:09

Pedro
I too have been attacked by the grumpy old men on this forum. I feel your pain. I am new to racing and have already learned a lot here. I did not have the opportunity to see these cars when they raced and I enjoy the chance to see them if only in pictures.
Those that did have the luxury to race and be a part of that, in my OPINION, should take a moment and realize this Forum is for the world to see and be a part of. There seems to be a tendency for certain contributors to this Forum that their opinion is God's gift to the world. In my opinion their boredom is not is not caused by people who post pictures but by their own opinion of themselves.
If this negativity is what I have to look forward to in my old age ( I'm 46 ), then I hope I don't feel the need to share it with all of you.

Sincerely
Brian Nordby

#43 billthekat

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 17:44

Let me try to make something very clear, if I may. I think that it is great that we have wonderful people who rather than allow some wonderful artifacts from the past simply get tossed on the rubbish heap, either rescue them or obtain them in some way and keep them in our midst. Not everyone does this out the goodness of their heart, but I think that this more common than is often assumed or recognized. It takes on a few from the Gordon Gekko camp to leave a very sour taste in your mouth for a very long time. Rightly or wrongly, this has strongly influenced my view of certain aspects of both vintage racing and restoration world, but this scarcely would apply to those such as Chad, Anton, Richard, and many others I know, admire, and respect.

The root of my point is that there is a lot of history and only one me. On the latter point, I am certain that there are more than a few deep sighs of relief, but as to the former, there simply is a point where something falls off the table. For me, "vintage racing" is one of those. It is much like golf to me, an entertaining pastime in the personal sense, but scarcely a gripping spectator sport -- I have no problems not watching a tournament. I tend to concentrate on the Zeitgeist of motor racing because after a point the effort to track Everything becomes a mission more attuned a capbility akin to NORTHCOM's and not a lone scribe. Listening to Harry Callahan, I have an understanding of my limits.

It is the folks such as Chad, Anton, and others who have taken the time to pull the pieces they have/had and pass it on that make a huge difference whenever we try to navigate waters such as this which are not as well-charted as we would like. It is a matter of matching up the pieces of the puzzle and seeing what seems to emerge.

Yes, there are Grumpy Old Men on this form, and, yes, at times I can be counted as being among their number. At times this is a conscious affiliation and at other times, something that moreorless just happens. The negativity that Brian mentions is -- and has been -- a long standing concern of mine. I fell and my sword -- and lost, and lost badly many would say -- over some aspects of the forum that deeply concerned me, but which in the end simply did not matter. I returned, older of course, perhaps not much wiser, but also with a better appreciation as to the analogy of People As Lightbulbs. My concerns have not gone away -- indeed, in cases they are realized, but when you don't have many alternatives.....

It would be great if there could be a better understanding of these racing machines and their time upon the stage emerges from this thread. How such interesting cars have been generally overlooked and ignored for so long is a complete mystery to me.....





A small note: I never intended for this foum to ever be "popular" -- whatever that might mean, nor reach much of an audience outside those who move slowly, plodding through the rather boring, colorless processes that compose the craft known as research. In the very early days, we discovered that we needed to produce some "chatter" simply to attract eyeballs to this place and then to have the "right" eyeballs be directed this way. Our -- or more accurately my -- thoughts never considered "grumpy old men" or any of the other issues where opinions and so forth fester rather than bubble through the forum. Needless to say, my initial level of cluelessness regarding this place is enough to warrant some averted eyes and muttering to the effect of how dumb can one be....

#44 Pedro 917

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 19:25

Well, what can I say? Thanks for the supporting replies, here on this thread and personal.

We are all looking at motor racing history in our own personal way and I, for myself, love to attend historic racing as it brings back fond memories of my days as a youngster, very much in love with these cars and their drivers (some people would call this nostalgia...). Maybe some of you consider these races as a joke or a pass time for the rich but I appreciate these guys for bringing their cars out so we can learn about them and remember how they looked and sounded like. I also like the relaxed atmosphere in pit and paddock and the "camaraderie" amongst the competitors.
I'm also an amateur photographer and love to share my pictures, what can be wrong with that?
I've been a flight steward for many years and loved meeting people, sharing our thoughts and opinions, it was a mind opener. People never seize to amaze me, especially when they become "territorial". It's just fascinating isn't it? Makes me wonder what the real story is behind this verbal agression.....

#45 Chad Raynal

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 20:09

Hello All,

Boy am I glad that Bruce got me to post something to this forum. Anton's two pictures were brand new to me. I've got a few pictures of the car in street trim, one even in front of the Queen Mary, but Anton.. your shots are outstanding. To have a shot of my car at the 1981 Monterey Historics is particularly "neat" to me. I didn't know that my car was ever at the Monterey Historics prior to the late 1990's, and it happens to be my favorite auto-related event... though I've never had the opportunity to attend the Goodwood Revival.

Anton, to say that I'd love to see other pics of my car that you might have, well, that's a colossal understatement.

I've tried to provide a link to a little blurb showing some pics of my car just after it's arrival at Hollywood Sport Cars.

Posted Image

All the best.

-Chad

#46 barrykm

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 05:43

Originally posted by WINO


There seems to be a tendency for certain contributors to think that the above posted images are God's gift to TNF. Well, being primarily interested in the original history of these cars [which is what this forum is supposed to be all about], I find these images boring as hell, one of the reasons I don't buy any of the many magazines covering these current events with nauseating detail. They have as much relevance as professional wrestling: forgotten by tomorrow, with the exception of the owner-driver and his silver-plated cup and boosted image. Who cares about the results produced by this kind of racing during the past 30 years? It is one big ego trip, without any historical significance. Unless of course you are one of those young whippersnappers with the urge to use his digital camera on this kind of stuff, and the urge to post it at the earliest pretext. Isn't there a TNF kindergarten version for these eager beavers?

WINO [/B]


What a disappointing comment for the TNF - these posted images are also part of what TNF is all about, good for the contributors..!! Also, many of us, I'm sure, would give up valuable parts of our anatomy to actually own some of these fabulous machines and take part in current events, regardless of whether or not certain members have any interest in them!

#47 Ted Walker

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 08:19

For GODS SAKE KEEP TO THE SUBJECT. YES LETS SORT OUT THE CHASSIS Nos .and the people who are not interested in adding anything constructive go and start a website for whingers.

#48 billthekat

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 15:14

Has anyone compiled a list of the M1-series entries? This is always a good place to start, one that would allow the rest of us to chime in along the way. I will be very up-front and say that my interest is primarily on the US & Canadian events, particularly the professional events, specifically the North American pro Races, to include the USRRC and Can-Am events. Given the better level of information we have today, this should provide a more complete listing than we were able to compile 30 years ago.

#49 David McKinney

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 15:45

OK, a handful of numbers to start the ball rolling
McLaren M1A (and McLaren-Elva Mk1)
reportedly 24 cars built
BMMR 1/64 - works 1964
BMMR 2/64 - Dan Gurney 1965
2001 [sic] - John Coombs/Graham Hill 1965
20/05 [sic] - Augie Pabst crashed 1965
20-09 - Hollywood Sportscars/Jim Adams 1966

McLaren M1B (and McLaren-Elva Mk2)
65-1 - works/McLaren 1965, development car 1966
1-66- works/Chris Amon 1966
2-66 - works/McLaren 1966
30-09 - Ken Sheppard & Keith St John 1966
30-12 - Peter Revson 1966

McLaren M1C (1967 Trojan version of 1966 works M1B)
supposedly 25 built
40-03 - Skip Scott 1967
40-11 - Carl Haas 1967

#50 Twin Window

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 16:49

Originally posted by WINO

I fully agree with you on your sentiments when it comes to these overrestored McLarens [or any other competition cars] with owner-drivers who cannot be recognized behind their full-faced helmets/underwear, protected by obscene aftermarket rollbars to pacify the Mrs./the insurance company.

Better that they were left to rot away on some scrapheap then, hey?

There seems to be a tendency for certain contributors to think that the above posted images are God's gift to TNF.

If, WINO, you're referring to Luc (Pedro917) you are totally out of order.

He continues to provide wonderful images from the 1970s onwards, taken by him and his brother, for which I am not alone in being extremely appreciative.

Unless of course you are one of those young whippersnappers with the urge to use his digital camera on this kind of stuff, and the urge to post it at the earliest pretext. Isn't there a TNF kindergarten version for these eager beavers?

No, but there's a place for folk with an attiude problem like the one you're displaying.

It is commonly known as 'somewhere else'.