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#101 Cynic

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 21:37

Allen,

That's the car. I didn't read much of the Zerex thread -- I usually ignore anything which starts out "I'm building a replica of...." Not to my taste.

I have the photos converted, and as soon as I figure how to load them I'll put them up. They are definitely from May of 1965, at at point when the real Penske Cooper F1-based Zerex was with McLaren. This would seem to suggest that this car cannot be the Zerex.

Dave Morgan, who raced the car in 1965, was friends with Ronnie Hissom and Hap Sharp. A friend suggested that this might be the ex-Sharp Cooper, extensively modified. That would seem to be one possibility, if a rather unlikely one?

Anyway...photos to follow.

Cynic

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#102 Cynic

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 22:40

Allen,

With the help of my 17 year old tech support, I think I figured out
ImageShack.

These are the four photos I took in May 1965, at Hammond. Driver
was Dave Morgan.

Edit: Having now read the Zerex thread, I think
I know less than when I started. From that thread and a rough time
line it seems possible -- and only possible -- that this is the remains
of the Zerex/Cooper/McLaren/Oldsmobile. I'm not sure if these
images will provide answers, or just more questions about the
possible survival of the original Zerex Cooper.

Back to this thread, if this is a McLaren it does not appear to be an M1.

Cynic


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This one was taken the same weekend, of the Ed Sevadjian
Corvette Grand Sport 003. As we say down here,
"Now them's carburetors...."

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#103 Cynic

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 03:23

I found what might be the definitive answer to the Dave Morgan car. According to Vintage American Road Racing Cars by Harold Pace and Mark Brinker, "After its front-line career was over, the old Zerex returned to the United States and was sold to Dave Morgan, who ran it in the Southwest Division of the SCCA in the mid-1960s. It has supposedly survived but has not been seen in some time."

Cynic

#104 Magee

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 04:12

Cynic has made a reference to the Penske Cooper-based Zerex with McLaren's body design. I propose that the Zerex design goes back to the Cooper streamliners campaigned in the mid-50s. I wish I had the skill to artistically draw the evolution of the Cooper cum McLaren. It's obvious to me when I physically scan the lines of my ex-Cooper; the lineage starts there.

Mike

#105 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 09:37

Great pictures. Thanks for these.

Originally posted by Cynic
According to Vintage American Road Racing Cars by Harold Pace and Mark Brinker, "After its front-line career was over, the old Zerex returned to the United States and was sold to Dave Morgan, who ran it in the Southwest Division of the SCCA in the mid-1960s. It has supposedly survived but has not been seen in some time."

Call me a cynic, Cynic, but I never trust a secondary source. Where did Pace & Brinkler get that information from? I want to know so I can confirm it's right.

Allen

#106 David McKinney

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 10:19

You took the words right out of my mouth, Allen
We need a link between the McLaren factory and Dave Morgan (which Ted Walker may have supplied in the Zerex thread)

#107 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 10:46

Originally posted by David McKinney
We need a link between the McLaren factory and Dave Morgan (which Ted Walker may have supplied in the Zerex thread)

Err, has he? Where? :confused:

Allen

#108 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 10:53

I've just been browsing Martin Krejci's site for mention of Dave Morgan and he is shown at the 1965 Nassau Speed Week in a "Cooper Monaco T57 Oldsmobile". T57 was one of the retrospective Cooper type numbers so I guess Martin's added that element of the description. The T57 was the name applied to the 1960 Monaco Mk II according to Doug's "Cooper Cars".

Is Martin here? What was the original description of that car?

Allen

#109 Ted Walker

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 11:22

If you study my Nassau shots closely there are features that are on the Zerex.the ducting under the side etc. We should really be talking about this on the Zerex thread BEFORE it all gets very confusing. Twinny at my request has already moved those superb colour shots over.

#110 David McKinney

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 11:25

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Err, has he? Where? :confused:

His reference to photos at Hammond La being taken by a former Cooper employee (though, now you mention it, that doesn't prove whether he was snapping his old friend the Zerex, or something else)

#111 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 11:25

Do we have a Zerex thread? A "building a [fake] Zerex" thread isn't necessarily thre right place either.

Allen

#112 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 11:34

I thought Ted was saying that the Nassau pictures were taken were taken by Eddie Stait, not the Hammond ones which were taken by Cynic. Either way, it's a pretty vague link.

Allen

#113 David McKinney

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:23

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Do we have a Zerex thread? A "building a [fake] Zerex" thread isn't necessarily thre right place either.
Allen

Spending too much time on other forums leads to unreasonable expectations :lol:

#114 Ted Walker

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 16:14

Its the only thread that we have available Allen. The Eddie Stait photos were of the McLaren at the factory NOT the Zerex

#115 Cynic

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 17:19

Allen,

I've sent a note to Harold Pace asking about his sources for the statement. I know I talked to someone with the team -- my recollection is that it was Morgan, but I can't be certain -- who told me that this was the Zerex Special. That was how I identified the photos at the time. Certainly the missing link is how the car got from McLaren to Morgan.

Cynic (working to live up to his nickname)

#116 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 17:31

Dave Morgan's still around as he's credited in a recent book on the Corvette that he drove in 1967. Anyone close to the Corvette crowd? Someone there must have contact details for him.

For anyone coming late to this conversation, this is not the English Dave Morgan from the early 1970s, this is the SCCA regular from the mid-to-late 1960s.

Allen

#117 Ted Walker

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 07:51

Do we know if the "Trojan production" cars had frames built by arch Motors or were they built in house ??

#118 Rosemayer

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 12:25

This appears to be Penske shot where I don't know.


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#119 Bruce302

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 21:30

Great shot, but this has to be Bruce McLaren. And quite early in his ownership of the car.

Bruce.

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#120 rosemeyer

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 22:21

Now that I look at it again it does appear to be Bruce still a center seater with the Olds engine.I have searched but can't find a race listing for this car with the number 47 maybe practice.

#121 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 April 2006 - 22:37

No - positively NOT still a central-seater at the time of the photograph above.

DCN

#122 teegeefla

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 01:04

It appears to be Bruce at Mosport, 1964 Players 200.

links:

http://www.wsrp.wz.c...nadasc1964.html

http://www.zoompics.com/1964.htm

this photo shows it is not central seat:

http://www.racingspo...4-06-06-047.jpg

#123 rosemeyer

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 01:19

Doug you are totally correct my pic had a bad angle and due to my age my eyes are not what they used to be.

#124 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 03:01

The pix is certainly Bruce and I strongly suspect it's the 1964 running of the Player's 200. I have a pix of the car in the paddock. It is definitely a two-seater. Pix coming soon...

BTW, he won.

Edit: Oooopppsss! Sorry, chaps. Hadn't realized that the thread had lapsed over to a new page c/w several new posts confirming the Player's 200 deal.


#125 edmcd

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 15:59

Does anyone have a history of the McLaren M1B that Masten Gregory raced for Pacesetter Homes in 1966? This car was recently bought by Julian Bronson and is in the UK, and I understand it is chassis #3. Would this have been a Trojan 66-3 or a different designation. I understand that it was given to masten Gregory but it appears to have been owned by Pacesetter according to reports at the time. A thorough background would be much appreciated.
Ed McDonough

#126 Ted Walker

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 19:30

The car is thought to have been the 3rd protoype and dffers from the "trojan" built cars in a number of ways.It carries an AM (arch motors) No on the bulkhead

#127 David McKinney

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 21:11

I'm open to correction on this, but my understanding is that the 1965/66 works development M1B was 65-1, and the 1966 works race cars 1-66 and 2-66. There could have been a third 1966 factory-built car 3-66 but I haven't heard of it.
The Trojan cars started with 30-01, 30-02 etc. It could be 30-03 we're talking about here

#128 Duncan Fox

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 01:43

David , you are correct on the Works cars, but there was a 3rd car s/#66-1 ( the 2nd M1B) built in Jan/ Feb 66 . It was in fact the only truly works constructed M1B. All the others had Arch Mts frames. This car had a frame constructed by welder John (Thompson) at the same time as the first 2 Whoosh Bonk cars. The lower rails were square instead of the usual round tubes to accept a Mallite belly pan. Firestone constucted the first 13in sports car tires for this project.It was Olds powered with ZF trans. The engine was plated along the main bearing caps and vertically behind the timing cover, to help keep it together. It was raced at Snetterton Good Friday '66 by Bruce and by Chris at Silverstone in May. Used for testing ,then taken to Canada and run at St Jovite and Mosport both again by Chris. He told me he hated the 13in wheel and tire combination and changed the setup back to 15's as soon as he could.. The lower frontal theory was not proven either.It also was the first dry sump car McLarens ran.

The 2 Can Am M1B's were Trojan C.K.D. cars assembled by the works . The frames were by Arch Motors and were the 1st 2 produced . The 3rd frame was 30-01 the Charlie Hayes Nickey Chevrolet car.

The Pacesetter Homes car, was I understand just a regular Trojan production car.

#129 markmanroe

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 01:56

Don't know if these photos are of a McLaren Mk 1 or a somewhat later model, but thought they might be of interest. They were taken 3-4 years ago at Motorsport Ranch, a race track about 30 minutes southwest of Fort Worth, Texas, USA. The car at the time belonged to a gentleman named Charlie Barns (see cockpit photo). He's the driver in one of the photos. If I remember correctly, he said at one time the car belonged to Mexican race car driver Moises Solana who I think drove in some Grand Prix races in the 60s.


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#130 Duncan Fox

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 03:26

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Here are a couple of pics taken early 66 at Colnbrook, one shows the Zweifel M3 to the rt hand side of the shot with Patsy Burkes M3 on the stands in the background. On the floor is the M1B I refered to in my last post. In the foreground is the BMW? Elva that Chris drove while waiting for his F1 drive. The 2nd shot shows Engine # 3/66 a 5 litre Olds. You can clearly see the plating used to hold it all together.

#131 Duncan Fox

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 20:26

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The missing photo.

#132 Jerry Entin

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 00:00

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Here is Richard Macon in his Roy Gane crewed McLaren Mk 1. Richard finished 6th in the 1965 Riverside Grand Prix.

#133 Jerry Entin

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 00:07

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Here is Richard Macon's Lovely wife Karan in the ex Macon McLaren as it is Vintage raced now. Car is currently owned by John Bladon.

#134 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 01:02

Swell pix, Jerry. TY.

As I did for Chuck Brandt in the Cooper thread, I guess I'd better hunt up all my M1 photos and post here, too.

I see that M1's and M2's are posted. Errr...I mean...M1A's and M1B's. Oh, I don't know. I'll just post 'em and let you fellas argue! :lol:

#135 Jerry Entin

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 12:22

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Here is Richard Macon running against Jackie Stewart in the consolation race. At Riverside in 1965. clipping lent site by Richard Macon. And Manfred, in the day we called the McLaren's Mk1 and Mk 2's now they called them MK1A'S and MK1B'S.

#136 Jerry Entin

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 12:37

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This is Sam Posey in my McLaren at Elkhart Lake in 1967. It was a 500 mile race and we were running 3rd. The late Bud Morley was suppose to be my co-driver. He wasn't at the track on Friday and I asked Sam to co-drive with me. Bud Morley finally showed up during the race on Sunday. When Sam brought the car in for a fuel stop. Bud said he was going to drive the car. We said no way you have never been here before and wouldn't fit in the car. He was very big. Well, he got in and ran one lap and came back in. He had gone off course and put rocks through the radiator. He got out and said he couldn't fit in the car. We couldn't run anymore laps due to all the water leaking out the radiator and were dropped to 6th place. Photo lent site by Tom Schultz. copyright 2006 Tom Schultz

#137 hipperson

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 15:40

Bit late into this posting...

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On the back of the photo I have' MAC/ELVA MK11...note spoilers'
It was Snetterton 1965. I think I see Eric Liddles GT40 in the background.

Any one know the car............?

#138 Jerry Entin

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 13:20

I am fairly sure that is Bruce McLaren's car if this is from 1965. In 1966 Chris Amon ran that numbered car at that time I believe it was Traco Olds powered. In 1965 Bruce McLaren finished 2nd in the Canadian Grand Prix in a car that looked exactly like this one. Jim Hall won in the Chaparral. In that race Bruce used the number 14 on the car.

#139 Pete Stowe

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 15:41

Snetterton – with race #2 that would have to be Chris Amon’s car (with 5-litre Olds engine) which finished 2nd in the Archie Scott-Brown Trophy race on 8th April 1966. (There’s a nice picture on the front cover of Autosport 1.7.66).


Originally posted by Duncan Fox
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The missing photo.

The tail of the car in the lh corner looks like the coupe Elva-BMW road car, whereas Amon raced an open Mk.8 Elva-BMW sports-racer during 1965.

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#140 Duncan Fox

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 19:21

Pete ,you are correct, it was Chris at Snetterton ,but.. its the alloy bodied 65-1 because Bruce had 66-1 ( the 13''wheel car ) out for its maiden race .They finished the day with oil pressure problems in both the Olds motors .

My mistake with the Elva, you are right it was the open car. Why do you think McLarens would have had the coupe?.

#141 Pete Stowe

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 08:51

Duncan, that’s anyone’s guess. Offhand I can’t recall where Elva had got to with the coupe project by the end of 1965, or if they’d canned it as a production model by then. Maybe they just had it to play with, maybe Bruce was helping with development, maybe even considering it’s potential as a GT racer?

#142 Jerry Entin

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 04:10

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Elkhart Lake Road America 500 1967. Jerry Entin in car.
photo lent site by Tom Schultz. copyright 2006 Tom Schultz.

#143 RA Historian

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 17:44

Originally posted by Bruce302
And finally, again many thanks to Harry Mathews for this M1C (or Mk 3)

This is chassis 40-18 (of 25 built) and was bought by Jerry Hansen of Minneapolis.
It would appear that his only race of '67 was the Sept 3 meeting at Road America, Elkhart Lake in Wisconsin.

see this car here,

http://www.mathewsco...McLaren_M1C.htm


Hansen drove the car extensively in 1967. Among the events of which I am aware are an SCCA REgional in May at Wilmot Hills (1st); Road America June Sprints (dnf); Milwaukee SCCA Regional (1st); Road America 500 (2nd); Mid Ohio USRRC (2nd); Road America Can Am (6th); and a good number of other races. After the CanAm season he bought one of the Penske Lola T-70s and used that car to win the SCCA Runoffs at Daytona.

#144 Jerry Entin

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 17:55

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Here is the Ex Jerry Hansen McLaren MK 3. This was the first McLaren that Harry Mathews purchased. His great collection started with this car.
photo from Mathews collection.

#145 RA Historian

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 19:06

There seems to be an inordinate amount of confusion regarding early McLaren nomenclature. As I understand it, it is relatively straight forward.

On this side of the pond the tube frame McLarens were sold through the Elva distributorship channel (read Carl Haas) and were labeled McLaren Elvas. Hence, the M1A was the McLaren Elva Mik. I, the M1B was the McLaren Elva Mk. II, and the M1C was the McLaren Elva Mk. III.

Incidentally, I talked to Charlie Barns at this year's Road America Historics and he was driving the McLaren Elva referenced earlier in this thread. Yes, he still has it, and also, he is the same Charlie Barns who was the SCCA National Champion in Class G Modified (sports racing) in 1964 driving a Merlyn Mk. 6.

I have photos of Jerry Hansen in his car in 1967 which I will be forwarding to Jerry Entin for posting.

#146 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 23:21

This dual numbering continued with the M4B Formula B car being called the Mk 4.

Allen

#147 Jerry Entin

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:45

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Jerry Hansen in 1967 Elkhart Lake Road America 500

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Another picture of Jerry Hansen at Elkhart Lake Road America in 1967.
photos lent site by Tom Schultz- copyright 2006 Tom Schultz

#148 David McKinney

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:25

Originally posted by Allen Brown
This dual numbering continued with the M4B Formula B car being called the Mk 4.

And here's me thinking the M4B was the BRM-powered F1 upgrade of the M4A

#149 2F-001

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:50

A McLaren promotional brochure (titled simply McLaren Racing) issued prior to the '71 season has a type number list which includes:
"M4A Formula 2 car 1967" and
"M4B Trojan-built production Formula 2. Works car also fitted with 2.1 litre BRM for Formula 1 1967".


Straying further from the original topic (apologies) the same list shows "M7C Formula 1 car based on Formula A 1969".
I'd never read that before - I'd assumed it was detail update on the M7A (or perhaps the B, but without the side-tanks). Does this imply that it had more in common with an M10?. Although, to be honest, I'm not sure what all the major mechanical differences (aside from obvious drivetrain installation matters) between 7 and 10 were...

#150 2F-001

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:03

Ah - I should have perhaps dug a little deeper on both matters before posting...

I now find other sources that suggest that other than the production F2 car ("mainly intended for American Formula B") the M4B tag was also used for the M4A with the BRM unit... and that the M7C was indeed built on the same monocoque as the M10.
But maybe you all know this stuff already... I'll let you get back to M1s!