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McLaren M1s


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#301 ERault

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:28

Frank Salem of Hanover, Ontario built a Ferret Formula A car based on a McLaren M1A. Could that be the car? If the Ferret was 20-10, it would be very interesting to me if Bonhams could tell us where it went after Salem.

Horizon - could you ask Billes if he recalls the name Frank Salem or whether Hanover sounds like the right place?


M1A chassis 20-10 is back on the market :

http://www.rmauction...?...D=r143&fc=0

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#302 Giraffe

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 22:50

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24
M1B chassis 20 - 09 at Silverstone today.

#303 kartman24

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:35

Does anyone know of the chassis number and history of the M1 raced by Ian Richardson in the UK during the 70`s, it was a metallic blue if i rember correctly. I saw it several times at Silverstone, i think it was listed as a McLaren Special.......Martin

#304 johnbladon

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 22:33

Posted Image
By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2010-04-24
M1B chassis 20 - 09 at Silverstone today.


It certainly has M1B bodywork but 20-09 is an M1A chassis number? are you sure it wasn't 30-09?


#305 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 04:12

It certainly has M1B bodywork but 20-09 is an M1A chassis number? are you sure it wasn't 30-09?


Here is a link to a photo:

http://www.racingspo...6-10-16-055.jpg

Vince H.

#306 Bruce302

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 05:58

20-09 is an M1B bodied M1A (due to a fire) and is still in Northern CA.

This must be 30-09

#307 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:08

My records show 20-09 in North America all its life and 30-09 in the UK since birth (apart from a brief spell in Germany)

#308 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 06:34

and 30-09 in the UK since birth (apart from a brief spell in Germany)


...and a trip to New Zealand with owner Chris Wilson earlier this year:

http://formula5000.n...v...&image=1532

Vince H.


#309 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 08:24

OK, let me rephrase that:

My records show 20-09 in North American ownership all its life and 30-09 in British ownership since birth (apart from a brief spell in German ownership)

#310 jm1

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 17:39

I am new here, having just discovered the site. I have been following the topics of conversation and think I may be able to add some information to the research you are apparently doing.
I should note that I owned and heavily raced McLaren M3a -one of the two built- serial number 40-10 for nearly 20 years. I have numerous photos and know most of the people who raced the Can-Am cars during the period. Are you assembling a register?

jm1


#311 RA Historian

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 17:56

M3 ? That was the "whoosh-bonk" car, wasn't it?
Tom

#312 David McKinney

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 21:34

40-10 was a McLaren-Elva Mk3, known elsewhere as an M1C, and certainly one of more than two

Perhaps it really is an M3A...

#313 jm1

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 21:18

Just to clear up my first post yesterday, now learning how to navigate the system...

My car is indeed a M3/b. The serial number is 40-10. Some call this a M1C. But there are some differences within the series.

I owned and competed the car for many, many years. It was called a M3/b by the so-called American experts and was accepted with that designation by Trojan (Aag) while I was living on the Continent. Prehaps you are not familiar with the designation because only two cars were so configured. For about 10 years, 40-10 was stabled with thw M2 (M1B), owned by Chuck Lamb and driven for him by Chuck Daigh. The two cars often sat side by side without body work and that differences were obvious and major. John Collins maintained the chassis and John remermbered actually assembling my car while at Trojan.

The M3/b did not have the spindly front suspension of the other M1's but the later suspension used on the M6's. This allowed the use of wider tires and was a distinct advantage on the track.

More later.

jm1

#314 David McKinney

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 21:52

We seem to be at cross purposes

There never was a McLaren M3B

What people call an M1C is what was also known as a Mk3. This was a Can-Am sportscar model, one of which was 40-10

Likewise the M1B is the same as a Mk2. But the M2A and M2B were single-seaters

The M3A was also a single-seater, of which three were built. There were 25 M1Cs (or Mk3s)

#315 jm1

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 22:42

We seem to be at cross purposes

There never was a McLaren M3B

What people call an M1C is what was also known as a Mk3. This was a Can-Am sportscar model, one of which was 40-10

Likewise the M1B is the same as a Mk2. But the M2A and M2B were single-seaters

The M3A was also a single-seater, of which three were built. There were 25 M1Cs (or Mk3s)


Well, you apparently know more about my car than I do and I am pretty familiar with McLaren history and the cars of the period. I was caused to endlessly enter the car with a different designation than M1C, because the FIA among some others saw the car had major differences from its sisters in the series, and the factory put them there. The car was not a single seater.

The American Mk3 designation did not properly fit as 40-10 was built, at Trojan, with some very different bits and bobs. They know the car, have acknowedged it, helped with the FIA certification - and the late John Collins, the chap who actually first assembled the car while working at Trojan, always made the distinction as he knew the car intimately in that our race stable was about 20 feet from his shop for many years.

So what would you like to call it? M1C ? M1C/b ?, Mk3 ?, Mk3/b ? M3b ? There were two built in this configuration and Trojan did it subsequent to the 1967 season. That I do know.

By the way, I saw and sat in 40-11 in Sweden about 15 years ago. It was in green and yellow livery and was being campaigned in the Steigenberger series at that time. I hope that would be of some help in locating it as I noted in one of the postings above that it was 'unable to locate'. I may even have some photos somewhere.

jm1

#316 Allen Brown

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 22:48

You are quite right David but in the US the cars were described differently. As the M2A/M2B and M3A had so little visibility to most Americans, the M1B was regularly described as the Mk 2 and the M1C as the Mk 3. When the M4 came along, it was initially called the Mk 4 (or Mk IV) in the US where it ran in FB and the impression may have been gained that McLaren cars had simply gone Mk 1, Mk 2, Mk 3 and Mk 4 up to that point. So when this "Mk 4" was persistently called the M4B, somebody might have seen this as an abbreviation or a change in McLaren styling and applied the same change to existing Mk 3s.

By 1970, at least one modified Can-Am McLaren was being described as "Mk3B". Bob Nichols drove such a car in the Formula A race at Donnybrooke Speedway (Brainerd) in August 1970.

I'd be very interested to hear more of jm1's M3B.

#317 David McKinney

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 05:56

No JM, I don't know more about your car than you do. I don't know anything about it. I do however know quite a bit about the different models of McLaren car, and have in fact published a book on Can-Am cars.

I was first trying to establish whether you had a single-seater or Can-Am car, though the suggestion was the latter, and that is now clear.

The biggest problem, as Allen has elaborated, is the different designations used for the same models on either side of the Atlantic, coupled with the fact - again as Allen pointed out - that the M2A, M2B and M3A were not well-known in the US.

If as you say there were these two special variants of the Mk3/M1C, then I guess they would have to be Mk3Bs (in the US) or maybe M1C/Bs (in Europe), though I have never heard such designations - either in McLaren literature or in race reports of the time. There were of course individual updates of many of the cars - Dan Gurney's "McLeagle", for example, or Mike Goth's McLaren-Goth Special. But I know nothing about a factory update of the Mk3/M1C

Can you help us by indicating what differentiates the two Mk3Bs from the normal production Mk3/M1C?



#318 jm1

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 16:00

What I know for certain from the late John Collins, (who maintained a large number of Can-Am cars and the like for customers still racing those types), is that during post-season 1967, two Mk3's were returned to Trojan for a complete rebuild in preparation for the next season. According to John, the front end of the two cars were literally chopped off and and then refitted with what for all intents and purposes was a M6 steering rack and suspension along with a stiffer floor pan. The Triumph bits were completely eliminated.

This allowed the car to accept substantially wider wheels within the existing bodywork, (I ran 10" fronts) and larger tires which stabilized the car at speed. The darting and hunting inherent in the other 91 inch wheelbase cars was gone and that alone dramatically improved driver confidence. Noting this, we soon re-fit the car with wider rear wheels, wider tires and new much stronger Spicer Joints on the half-shafts and 5/8 inch (grade 8) wheel studs that could handle the additional traction. That improved the car even further. After putting the strings on the car at John's insistance (we nicknamed him Granny, because of his ever-present over-cautious approach to preparation), and doing a proper bump-steer, we had a truly competitive car.

Over a period of years and noting the engine bay would accept any small-block Chevy and they all hooked up nicely to the 5 speed LG-600, we then joined the horsepower race and the real fun began.

While my car outwardly appeared to be just another Mk3, we found that we had a Q-ship. It made for some interesting times. But it was Formula Libre and everybody was looking for an edge.

Later, it made for some seriously interesting times during scrutineering. That's where the different designations came into play.

jm1



#319 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 16:15

Very interesting. Who ran these two M1Cs in 1968?

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#320 jm1

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 17:04

I do not know what happened to the other car, but it is most likely lurking out there somewhere. I know of several of the tube-framers are in collections in Sweden. They seem to be particularly keen on Chevy powered anythings and when living on the Continent I encountered them often.

40-10 was not raced again until the '70's. When it was returned from Trojan, it was accompanied by a brand new M-6 and as a result a tarp was immediately thrown over 40-10 for several years. It never turned a wheel. After eventually pulling it it out, and handing it to John Collins, (who by then had relocated to the U.S.), it was once again put right. Tidyed up, it began its new career competing against other small-blocks while the newer and vastly more powerful big blocks whizzed by. Times had changed, but it was great sport trying to stay competitive and I met a lot of good people along the way.

jm1

#321 horizon

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 18:30

Welcome jm1 ;-)

thx for the info. Don't be shy. More stories please.

#322 jm1

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 05:05

Thanks, Horizon, but I'd rather see if I can just supply a little bit of information than tell stories.

I'm old now and infected with "the older I get, the faster I went" syndrome. I started racing in 1959 in a AH 100S and have had a lot of great cars since, but the McLaren's were easily the best and most challenging of the lot.

I better just stick to the facts I can still remember.

I found a photo of Mk3 #40-11 that was being raced in the Steigenberger Series in Europe about 15 years ago. The photo was taken at the Nurburgring. I believe the car was based in Sweden, but it may possibly have been German based. Of that I am not completely certain.

There were a number of Mk1's competing in the series and while it may take some doing, I still have some old entry lists with serial numbers. It might help locate some of the cars. Worth a look anyway.

I would like to post the photo of #40-11 for those interested and I have a goodly number of others as well, but I haven't figured out how to do it as yet. The site does evil things when I try to insert the photo. What's the trick?

jm1

Edited by jm1, 31 May 2010 - 05:13.


#323 David McKinney

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 06:23

40-11 was a Steigenberger regular in the '80s and '90s, first with Stig Johnsson (Sweden) and then Wido Roessler (Germany), and I saw it many times. It seems to have been in various museums since

Was that the other Mk3b?

There's a dedicated thread at the top of the main page on posting photos - a lot of people seem to find it difficult, but once you've mastered it it's a doddle. It took me approximately one minute to post one on another thread this morning

#324 jm1

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 11:02

40-11 was a Steigenberger regular in the '80s and '90s, first with Stig Johnsson (Sweden) and then Wido Roessler (Germany), and I saw it many times. It seems to have been in various museums since

Was that the other Mk3b?

There's a dedicated thread at the top of the main page on posting photos - a lot of people seem to find it difficult, but once you've mastered it it's a doddle. It took me approximately one minute to post one on another thread this morning




The answer to your question is yes, it was. Had a long chat with the then owner and we swapped war stories.

If you know the car, and apparently you do, then as I noted previously, there is little I can additionally contribute to the forum here that would be of much interest.

I hope that what little I was able to contribute did at least fill one hole in the data base as to 40-10.

Cheers,
jm1

#325 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 11:08

The answer to your question is yes, it was. Had a long chat with the then owner and we swapped war stories.

If you know the car, and apparently you do, then as I noted previously, there is little I can additionally contribute to the forum here that would be of much interest.

I hope that what little I was able to contribute did at least fill one hole in the data base as to 40-10.

Cheers,
jm1

Hi jm1

The gap isn't really filled because you've given us no names at all. We still don't know who owned 40-10 before the 1980s or where it was.


#326 layabout

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 03:34

Courtney car went to Clif Apel in 1969.
Hansen car was used by Hansen only until fall, 1967, when he purchased a Lola T-70 from Roger Penske. Do not know where McLaren went, but today I believe it is in the Matthews Collection.
Tom


I realize I'm "late to the party", but I thought I would like to update the history on McLaren M1C, chassis# 40-06. As was pointed out in this excellent forum, it was an ex-Haas car, initially driven by Masten Gregory & then by Chuck Parsons after, as the rumor has it, Gregory was dismissed for missing the start of the Riverside race. Why it took 3 races to dismiss him, I have no idea. The car was sold to Ron Courtney, who then sold it to Cliff Apel from Milwaukee (anybody know where he is?). It was then purchased from Cliff in 1970 by Dave Selway & brought out to California. Dave ran some club races & one Can-Am---the 1970 race at Laguna Seca & with an M6 body on it). The car has remained with Dave ever since. Dave & I are old friends & we are trying to get the car ready for Steve Earle's 2011 Wine Country Classic at Sears Point, where McLaren is the featured marque.

Thank you.






#327 RA Historian

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 17:06

...Cliff Apel from Milwaukee (anybody know where he is?).

Sadly, deceased a number of years ago.
Tom

#328 OCTARD

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 19:27

To correct the following:

20-09 is an M1B bodied M1A (due to a fire) and is still in Northern CA.

This must be 30-09


20-09 was never involved in a fire. 20-09 was delivered to Hollywood Sport Cars, and initially ran/tested with, M1A/MkI bodywork. In fact, along with the significant changes Doane Spencer of HSC made to this chassis, there was even a modified M1A/MkI nose run in some 1965 testing. After a testing crash at Riverside, and prior to it's participation at the 1966 St. Jovite Can-Am race, 20-09 was changed to M1B/MkII bodywork to be more competitive.

At the end of the 1967 season, 20-09 was sold by Hollywood Sport Cars.

Several years later, there was a structure fire at Doane Spencer's, but 20-09 was on to different owners by then.

-Chad

#329 David M. Kane

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 18:03

Posted Image
Here is Harvey Lasiter in his McLaren MK 1. It was the ex Chic Vandagriff Hollywood Sportscars McLaren. This was for a Puritan Shirt commercial shot at Orange County Raceway. The guy in charge of the race car shots was Bob Bondurant. The guy with the mustache is me Jerry Entin and next to me is Charlie Agapiou.
Photo lent site Ron Johnson


Jerry:

I had an extensive conversation this past Sunday with Bob and Pat Bondurant at the Premier of "Quest" at the Biltmore here in Phoenix. He apparently had a career ending shunt in the Dana-Chevy McLaren at Watkins Glen. It was a pretty massive shunt to say the least. Does anyone know what chassis number that was? Did anyone attend that race?

BTW he graciously autographed my copy of Michael Argetsinger's book "Formula One at Watkins Glen". Then I had to practically wrestle him to get it back. :)


#330 Jerry Entin

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 18:38

Glad you overpowered Bob and got your book back.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 17 January 2012 - 18:39.


#331 RA Historian

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 20:55

He apparently had a career ending shunt in the Dana-Chevy McLaren at Watkins Glen. It was a pretty massive shunt to say the least.

It was a big 'un indeed, busted Bob up quite a bit. That was in June, 1967. However, it did not end his career, not by a long shot. Bob had a lengthy recuperation and returned to racing in 1970 in the Smith-Oeser Lola T-160/163. He drove the season, having a best finish of second overall at the Road America Can Am. Continued to drive in Can Am in 1971, a few races for Lothar Motschenbacher as I recall. Has been in and out of retirement over the years, most notably driving a couple years in the World Challenge in the 1995-96 time frame in a Saleen Mustang for Saleen-Allen Speed Lab Racing.

Tom

#332 David M. Kane

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:26

It was a big 'un indeed, busted Bob up quite a bit. That was in June, 1967. However, it did not end his career, not by a long shot. Bob had a lengthy recuperation and returned to racing in 1970 in the Smith-Oeser Lola T-160/163. He drove the season, having a best finish of second overall at the Road America Can Am. Continued to drive in Can Am in 1971, a few races for Lothar Motschenbacher as I recall. Has been in and out of retirement over the years, most notably driving a couple years in the World Challenge in the 1995-96 time frame in a Saleen Mustang for Saleen-Allen Speed Lab Racing.

Tom


Thanks Tom!


#333 David M. Kane

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 17:03

Thanks Tom!


RA Historian I found a full explanation of the big one in Dave Friedman's book on Can-Am in Bob's own words. :up:

Thanks!

#334 Redneb

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 18:42

Apologies if this is not strictly on topic, but I'd like to draw your attention to work being done by Wal Wilmott in New Zealand. He is rebuilding/recreating the McBegg, which is a Can-Am-style sports car built by George Begg from parts bought from McLaren when he worked there (and, I understand, quite a few from the scrap bin).

A lot of history in this car, which is early M1/developmental.

http://www.theroarin...420-The-Mc-Begg

Edited by Redneb, 18 January 2012 - 18:43.


#335 kiwiboss

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:07

Hi all, great McLaren info

Personally i don't know too much about these cars but i've been lucky enough to have visited Chad at his NorCal home and viewed his McLaren, personally Chads attention to detail is beyond belief, i've gotten to know Chad though his amazing 69 TA Camaro and his Historic Trans Am exploits where he not only runs at the pointy end of the field but has a vehicle that is in show room condition!!

Here's some details about his McLaren http://www.impeccabl...Chassis_20/09_1

When i visited Chad in back in June 11 he had most of the Mclaren restoration done, i'll post a few pictures once i work out how to do this!!

Dale Mathers
New Zealand

#336 Bruce302

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:08

I can endorse what Dale has said about Chad Raynal's McLaren. last time I saw the car, it was a very nice car in every respect, but knowing Chad's approach to car preparation, and seeing some of his other cars, I just know it will be insanely correct, and in being so, it will perfectly emulate Doane Spencer's own fastidiousness back in the day.

#337 OCTARD

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:32

Thank you, Dale and Bruce for your kind words about my car, McLaren (McLaren-Elva) 20/09.

Adding to this thread, here are a few photos of what I believe to be George Wintersteen's McLaren (McLaren-Elva) 20/10. These photos were given to me by Don Breslauer.

Posted Image

Posted Image

I do not know the current owner of 20/10, but if folks associated with this car would like much higher resolution versions of the images above, please feel free to reach out in private via this page:

http://www.impeccableinc.com/contact/

All the best.

-Chad

Edited by OCTARD, 07 December 2012 - 08:05.


#338 OCTARD

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 20:21

Here is a photo of what I believe to be Bud Morley's Mk2 McLaren (McLaren-Elva), 30/05.

Posted Image

This photo was given to me by Don Breslauer.

"DRIVER: Bud MORLEY" can be seen on the right door, and I believe the nose shows number 66, when viewing in higher resolution.

Though I know the last US owner of 30/05, I do not know the present caretaker. If that individual or folks associated with it would like a much higher resolution version of the image above, please feel free to reach out in private via this page:

http://www.impeccableinc.com/contact/

-Chad

Edited by OCTARD, 07 December 2012 - 08:04.


#339 David McKinney

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:08

Though I know the last US owner of 30/05, I do not know the present caretaker.

A car with that number is in the UK with John Bladon


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#340 OCTARD

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:19

Thank you, David. I've actually spoken to John Bladon before, but not about this chassis. I have his contact details, and will be in touch to provide him this photo in higher resolution.

All the best, and thanks again.

-Chad


#341 OCTARD

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 00:08

Here is a photo of Bruce McLaren seated on the grid with friends and crew at Nassau, 1964.

Posted Image

This photo was given to me by Don Breslauer.

A few early members of Bruce McLaren Motor Racing have been asked to identify the cast within this photo, but the marked up copy below is all that is mutually agreed upon.

Posted Image

The fellow in position #1 is believed by a few to be Bruce Harre, though others disagree. If there are folks here that believe they can add to the identification of those within the photo, I/we look forward to such feedback.

I do not know if this chassis has survived, and if so who that present caretaker might be. If that individual or other folks associated with this car would like a much higher resolution version of the image above, please feel free to reach out in private via this page:

http://www.impeccableinc.com/contact/

All the best.

-Chad

Edited by OCTARD, 15 December 2012 - 19:32.


#342 David McKinney

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:02

1 might be Bruce Harre
2's certainly not Chris Amon
and I don't think 7's Eoin Young

#343 Ted Walker

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:23

David. Eoin was there

#344 OCTARD

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:10

A larger representation of the fellow noted in the #2 position within the 1964 Nassau image above.

Posted Image

#345 David McKinney

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:04

David. Eoin was there

I believe so. But that doesn't make him the bloke in the photo :)

Octard:
The blow-up does look a bit like Amon, but I remain to be convinced

#346 Alan Cox

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:43

In the hope of settling the argument, I emailed Eoin and have just received this reply:

Hi Alan

It's Bruce Harre ('Little Bruce') on the left talking to pensive Chris Amon.

Cheers
Eoin

He hasn't confirmed whether it is himself but I assume he is happy with the captioned identity in the original post.

#347 David McKinney

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 15:33

And of course the car is not an M1A, which hadn't been built then. It's the original McLaren, still with Cooper wheels
(though I'm embarrassed to admit it took period McLaren employee Howden Ganley to point that out...)

#348 Jerry Entin

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 16:23

Posted Image
Richard Corrow next to #2 McLaren driven by Brett Lunger and Colin Day next to Sam Posey driven Caldwell
This team was run by Ray Caldwell out of his Marblehead, MA. shop known as Autodynamics Corp.

photo: Richard Corrow collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 03 February 2013 - 16:37.


#349 cstlhn

cstlhn
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Posted 03 February 2013 - 21:37

I had the distinct pleasure of working with Ray Caldwell about ten years ago. He is hands down the finest manager I have ever worked with. Last I knew he was living in Utah?

#350 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:32

Hi, Jerry! :)

I always liked Brett Lunger's talent. I must say, tho, that I saw him destroy a Mk1B against the pitlane guardrail in the '67 Mosport CanAm. Man!, but it was a mess. Presumably the car we see in your post.