67 replies to this topic

[SCHKEE T332]

HI,
I've owned this Lola T332 CS for about 4 years and I've just completed a mechanical restoration. We are taking it out racing at the Walter Mitty Challenge in 2 weeks and I would like to repaint the car correctly. I am interested in determining the car's history and original livery. Any help would be appreciated. This is what I know:

First owned by Eagle Creek Aviation and sold to a Joseph Moch of Michigan in the mid eighties.

Moch offered the car to Bud Bennett but sold it instead to a Terry Muir(SP?) (possibly in Texas) .

Chuck Haines was also offered the car by Moch, around 1991

All of the above info was obtained from Bud Bennett. Craig Bennett has inspected the car and also remembers the car as belonging to Joe Moch, and he had worked on it in the late 80's.
Craig Bennett is sure it is a Lola Chassis, not some sort of "kit".

Stan Wattles owned the car as a parts car for another T332 (HU55) that he had. He bought the car from "someone in Texas", does not remember....perhaps brokered by Chuck Haines.

Wattles sold the car to Wade Gohran(Washington state ?), who drove a Saleen S7 in Grand Am.
Wade semi-restored the car, painting it blue and yellow(Wade's Gun Shop livery). It had been Red. Engine was rebuilt by Steve Jennings.

Wade Gohran sold the car to Tupper Robinson (California). Tupper repainted the car to Budweiser livery . Tupper sold it to Guy Drier (Arizona).

I bought the car from Guy Drier in 2001 .

Other info about the car:
It has the roll bar stamping 76-2401 on the roll hoop and the stamping belongs to an Eagle Creek Aviation car (winning $10,150.00 in 1977) according to a woman with the SCCA in Colorado that has some old tech notebook. A person named Roy Campbell built a slightly special "Swiss Cheese" like body to help prevent blow overs, as noted in a tech article supplied to me by this woman from the SCCA.. Her name is Robyn. The car was run in 1976 as a Mackinac Lola with $4200.00 in winnings.

The car has been slightly wrecked in the right front as evidenced by a re-worked right front corner and panel and a replaced front flat panel. The replacement panels appear to have come from Lola. I have several t332 tubs and the pieces not from Lola really are inferior.

The car possibly sat in a trailer for some time at a race track with a bunch of spare parts.

The car had been converted to a center seat Can Am with a kit supplied by Lola ( the standard kit with the winged nose. It also used to have at least a nose mold and extra nose with it. The car had a lot of spare wheels with it, some being the old style magnesium f5000 type.

The car has been represented through the years as a car run by Evan Noyes.

The cars fuel cells are december 1973 vintage(matched pair) and in good shape, but we replaced them anyway. There was a hidden 2 gallon cell under the driver's knees made in 1974 under the access panel.

The car was in very original condition regarding the wiring harness, engine, trans, uprights , etc.
Very un-molested. The biggest reason it was parked was the deterioration of the fuel cell foam. It was clogging everything.

Anybody know this car ? Was it originally Red ? Any help with this is greatly appreciated .
Thanks,
Johan Woerheide

[SCHKEE T332]

http://mywebpages.co...le/LOLA332A.jpg

Sorry, a picture might help.

[Allen Brown]

Hi Johan

There is one part of this that I don't think you'd mentioned to me before - the bit about it being a Mackinac car in 1976. Mackinac, like Eagle Creek Aviation, were sponsors of Evan Noyes in 1976. You say this information came from the mysterious "Robyn"?

Noyes had a lousy run of results in 1976 and I'm quite surprised he even managed $4,200.

Regards

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Hello Allen !,Yes she is a bit mysterious. Nice, to be sure, but mysterious. She has a large notebook of hand written tech sheets from the mid to late 70's that were the property of a deceased SCCA tech inspector that she does not mind looking into for specific info, but would not allow me to have a copy of. It seemed she felt the material was proprietary , which she is entitled to think since it belongs to her. Perhaps she wishes to publish it at a future date. That's the impression I got. She signed the fax as "Robyn" and was again, very nice and helpful. This was in 2004 so I bet she is still there. I believe the SCCA National office is where she works and it is in Colorado. Perhaps you should call her, as I'm sure the info she has would be of great interest to you as well. I also remember that she had to ask permission to send me the info, but I'm not sure from whom.
The info regarding winnings came from her, having given her the 76-2401 number. I do not know what a "Macinac" Lola is, just that she called it that.
The other info that is new is that Joe Moch( to whom you refer in the history of another Noyes car Hu 30something) and Terry Miur owned the car,this from Bud Bennett who remembers the car , and that Craig Bennet has flown down here just to see the car and also remembers it.They offered to purchase it. I have to wonder if they repaired the front end damage. They do so many cars and it was 15 years ago, but still at least they remember the car. Regarding the info on your website, it is now to the point that people read that info on car "76-2401" and recite it to me as fact, when I maintain it is just conjecture until someone fills in the gaps. For instance, it was not actually Stan Wattles that told me of the car being in the trailer for a long time at a race track, but a subsequent owner that I assumed got the info from Wattles. I don't want my assumptions to somehow turn into facts,as a result of people reading it on your (wonderful) website. I am simply trying to see if anybody has any info on the car. History, whatever it may be,but accurate, is one of the most attractive features of these cars, to me at least. I simply wonder where it has been. I'll be asked at the races and it would be nice to know. I feel that the car is the first car to run the number 24 in the year 1976 in the SCCA, just not sure which HU# that was. Probably 51. I'm not sure that any other info is available, hence the post .
By the way Allen, we ran the Schkee last weekend and it went well, finishing second to Joe Blacker in a mean Lola 298 on a twisty course. Some of the patrons actually recognized it , instead of asking if it was a "Dune Buggy".
What do you think Allen ?
Best regards,
Johan

[SCHKEE T332]

PS,
I drove through Indianapolis last week and I was driving just north of town and passed over "Eagle Creek" . Made me think of the car so I decided to post. Strange that I was driving at 3:00 Am within 1 mile of where the car had been based 30 years earlier. I have spoken with Evan Noye's Son (still in Indianapolis) but apparently the senior Mr. Noyes is not taking calls at this time. I am at a dead end on researching the car. It is time to paint the car. I'm painting it red because I THINK that's the right color. Red is the "first " color on the body followed by primer, then Blue,then primer, then red again. Anybody know ? Is there a record of Noyes wrecking the right front of a car ? Perhaps it was wrecked in F5000 as it has a nice set of the F5000 wheels with it. One last bit of info is that the car has always been a complete car. Wattles used no parts from it. The only thing keeping it from running was the bad fuel cell foam, probably the original foam from the seventies.
Thanks again,
Johan

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, I've gone back to your website, and looking under t332 hu32, I think the car Chuck is refering to is my car, not HU 32. Unless Joe Moch owned both, because I know he owned mine.
Do you have more detailed notes ?
Best,
Johan

[David McKinney]

Johan
Noyes entered HU51 in the 1975 Tasman Series and my recollection is that it was red.
In practice for the first round, at Levin, he slid off on a fast left-hander and smacked into a safety-bank, inflicting sufficient damage to cause his withdrawal from the series before it started. The impact would have centred on the right front.
The report in MotorAction 10 Jan 1975 says the car was unique among the Lolas at Levin in using Firestone tyres instead of Goodyears and 15in rears instead of the usual 13s.
It goes on to say that Noyes, who had raced in New Zealand on three earlier occasions, "was neither as fast nor as dangerous looking as in the past.
"Then he came into the notorious Cabbage Tree Corner, lost it (on his own admission), overcorrected, and understeered off the track. Then it was only a matter of time before the Lola understeered into the bank, almost flipped, then came to rest with a 'whump' against the bank. Exit one T332 Lola with badly twisted monocoque."

[SCHKEE T332]

Thanks David ,
Good info that ! Red it was then, but it would still be interesting to know if it was red in the Center Seat Can Am configuration.
Also, was it so badly wrecked that a whole new chassis was procured, or did they repair that one (HU51) ? If a new chassis was procured, do I have the new one ("HU51B")which was wrecked a second time in the right front, or the repaired original ("HU51 A"). There are no holes to mount a Chassis tag in the front of my car as that piece (the horizontal flat piece) has been replaced,but it is riveted over something. There are double rivets on the right side, those in the original holes and another set 1/8" away in new holes. Paul Walker set up the chassis alignment last week and there is a slight twist to the tub that had to be dealt with, but an acceptable alignment was indeed achieved.
Allen, perhaps the money was "show up " money, which we still get today in some vintage race events. Race through the weekend and get a few hundred dollars for instance. Back in the day, the winnings totals were 50-80 thousand for the front running cars.
There is a chance that if I dis-assembled the front of the car drilling out the rivets, and removing the pieces, that there would be more info available by looking at what was underneath.
right where the chassis tag should be there is a squareish bump in the metal. Maybe the tag is under there, but I can't imagine such a thing would have been done.
Thanks for the info.
Kindest regards,
Johan

[SCHKEE T332]

You can sort of see the bump I'm talking about in this picture.
http://race-cars.com...x1/t332x1pe.jpg
Perhaps I've wished it to have a chassis tag for so long that I'm imagining things ! very possible !
I just went down to the garage in my underwear and felt up under there. There are two panels and the bottom one is blocked by the steering rack, but I couldn't feel any rivets for a tag. If I took out the rack though, there might be holes for the old tag rivets!

[Allen Brown]

Johan

You are right about that Moch reference needing to be moved. I had completely forgotten that was there - I guess I couldn't think where else to put it when Chuck told me.

How much do you know about HU32? If Noyes had acquired a new car (HU51) when he crashed HU32 but then crashed HU51 as well in New Zealand as well, I wonder which car he used in the US later in 1975. The fact that HU32 still exists today could be highly relevant to identifying your car.

My feeling remains that I'm 80% sure that your car is HU51. I just wish we could nail down a few more of those loose ends. Maybe HU32 is the key to some of this.

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, I know nothing about HU32 other than what I've read on your site. I had to look up the number,but had remembered the name Moch.. As I have HU55 at home, I do have something to compare to, so I just need to see more cars and see if "76-2401" is more similar to a HU5x tub or a HU3x tub. I'm sure ther4e were running changes.

I have no idea which car was used in 1975, I am only aware that my car was used in 1976, with the number 24. Anybody know what a Mackinac Lola looks like. We're ready to paint!

As soon as we sort thru this, I have another tub that has sat in the weeds at a race track since the 80's that had a tag at one time. It was used in Center Seat Can Am because it has the side pod mounts. Full story to follow in another thread.

[SCHKEE T332]

It looks to me like HU51 was wrecked again at Watkins Glen in 1976,per those race results, and interestingly, ran with HU55 driven by Warwick Brown(my other running T332) in formula 5000 configuration so, HU55 was not an "unused spare chassis", and HU51 was again wrecked. If my car ran in 1976 and Noyes ran HU51 in 1976, does that mean My car is HU51 since HU32 still exists ?

[Allen Brown]

I have assumed that HU51 was Noyes' 1976 car in my results but I don't have any direct proof that he continued to use HU51 after the accident in New Zealand. As he didn't buy a third T332, it seemed a reasonable assumption but it could also have been HU32 I suppose.

The bit about HU55 being an unused spare tub is a combination of various contemporary reports that the Schkee was built on an unused ex-Bay Racing tub, combined with the reported observation of the HU55 plate on the car. If HU55 had been wrecked, I suppose its chassis plate may have been transferred onto a replacement tub. The story of Bay Racing's two or three T332/T332Cs between mid-1975 and mid-1976 is very confusing.

My results should never be regarded as definitive. They are the best I can do with the information I have available. I don't identify a car unless I'm 90% certain but that still means that one in every ten could well be wrong.

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Thanks Allen, and I really enjoy your website and appreciate your enthusiasm. My big question is how should I paint my car. I'm hopeful that a picture will surface. Until then , I shall leave it as it is, but it's a bit wrong to have a Budweiser liveried T332.
Regarding HU55, Doug Schulz calls from time to time as does Bob McKee, just to see how things are going, and I shall just ask them. They are great to talk to on the phone.
Thanks in advance for keeping tabs and updates on these cars.

[dennis griffen]

Tom Schultz book Road America: Five Decades of Racing at Elkhart Lake contains a 1976 photo taken the weekend of the handicap race in August in which one of the cars is identified as Noyes. That car is red with a white right front wing.

[SCHKEE T332]

Thanks Dennis !

[Ray Bell]

Is 'Terry Muir' a correct name?

I'm thinking it might not have been out of place for Robert Muir to have been in Texas or to have bought such a car on a temporary basis... though my memory doesn't include any knowledge of him having done so.

[SCHKEE T332]

I'm only sure that Bud Bennett said "Terry Muir", but not so sure I spelled or Bud remembered it correctly.

[Allen Brown]

Hi Johan

I just sent you sone stuff on Mark's HU32.

Also, here are some period shots of Noyes' F5000 car:


1974, judging by the Talon behind it


1975 or 1976, judging by a T400 taken at the same point

Allen

[Allen Brown]

I should have mentioned that both pictures are Copyright Autosports Marketing Associates and Bill Oursler 2001.

As are these pictures taken in 1977. What was he thinking?!





Noyes qualified 5th at Laguna Seca and 4th at Elkhart Lake so this bodywork must have worked better than it looks!

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

I'm thankful for the photos, but sad that the bodywork does not resemble mine,as I had hoped it to. How could they be so different ? Looks to me like (no offense to Mr . Noyes) they could not justify the expense of a Lola Center Seat Can Am kit, so they built their own (with functional success) and that might be the "unique" bodywork refered to in the tech article(instead of mine)
My car has a Lola Center Seat Can Am kit . It is my unique bodywork (with the holes in it) that caused Bud and Craig Bennet to remember it as the car that Joseph Moch bought from Eagle Creek Aviation. Perhaps they put on my bodywork in 1978 or 1979 (Evan Noyes seems hard on bodywork, as even the F5000 photos show some differences). In '78 or '79or'80, that Lola bodywork would have been yesterdays news and available pretty cheap, I would think. I spoke with Evan Noyes' son and told him of my plight, and he said "good luck, but Dad's not taking any calls". I might have to find Joe Moch and ask him as he had the car for quite some time and is the first known person to sell the car in it's current guise. Or maybe the Bennets put the bodywork on and that is why they remember it. Regardless, I will not be trying to duplicate the yellow bodywork. The best we can do for now is update the chain of ownership and try to talk to Mr. Moch.

I looked at the photos of HU32 and it is a beautiful car. My car had the same patina when I got it, such as un-polished nickel suspension. I love the yellowed windscreen. I have a set of wheels like those(HU32) that came with "76-2401". Neat.

Thanks Allen.

[Allen Brown]

As far as I can tell, Evan Noyes was Eagle Creek Aviation. The 1976 Road Racing Annual says he runs a thriving aircraft sales business in Indianapolis and that fits the bill. So he was well funded and could easily afforded "proper" Lola bodywork if he'd wanted it. Maybe he was spooked by the flying experiences of some Lolas and decided to try something different.

It is possible that Noyes tried standard Lola bodywork either before or after his yellow bodywork and that could explain the bodywork you have now. I don't know where either of my 1977 pictures were taken.

Noyes and the Lola don't race after 1977. If it did race anywhere, it wasn't driven by Noyes or entered by Eagle Creek.

The number 76-2401 continues to puzzle me. We understand the '24' bit but the other two components of the number seem odd if this car is HU51. Firstly, HU51 would have first raced in 1974 so it should have been stamped 74-XX at that time. We know cars were stamped again each year as 76-2401 continued racing in 1977 without a new number. So the number 76-2401 implies the car was first seen in 1976, not in 1974. So a rebuild of HU51? Or a rebuild of HU32?

Secondly, the '01' suffix is odd. If Noyes turns up at the start of 1976 with an unmarked car, the tech guy would surely have stamped it 76-24, not 76-2401. Even if a second '24' appeared later in the year and was stamped 76-2402, I can't see him going back to the first car and stamping '01' after the '76-24'. For him to feel he needed an 01 on the end implies there were two cars with '24' on them at that first race. So did Noyes have a spare car in his trailer at the opening race of 1976? If he did, that implies HU32 was back in one piece. But - sorry for all the 'but's - if HU32 was there, wouldn't it have had its 74-XX number and therefore not need a new 76-XX number? And if that was true, why not call the other car simply 76-24? So is this telling us that Noyes started 1976 with a pair of new, or newly rebuilt, Lolas?

So, in conclusion, I'm still confused!

Given that Noyes Snr isn't taking calls, have you had any luck contacting his crew?

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, I too thought of the 76-2402 thing, but perhaps 76-2402 was a different type of car in a different series but running at the same "first " event of the season. I don't buy that though. I think there were two #24 cars being teched at the same time at the same race. There is no #01 until there is a #02.
Schucks, it could be someones phone number, but it is "stamped" in the top of the roll hoop, not scribbled.
I guess I confused Noyes' financial situation with the Schkee situation. Too many cars to keep them straight. That could certainly explain the Lola stuff.
There is a reference to a "Roy or Randy Cunningham" in the notes that came with the car, which could be an inaccurate rememberance of the name Roy Cambel, or an accurate rememberance of an as yet un-identified previous driver/owner/crew. Not sure where Roy Cambel is.
I am fairly sure that the roll hoop is not a readily interchangable item from car to car. It is attached to a "spider web" of structure that to de-bond would be a nightmare. I feel that my car ran in Formula 5000 because of the way the radiators are set up, plus it still has the attachment points for the Formula 5000 bodywork, not needed on Can Am. Also, It came with the older set of F5000 wheels(NOT easy to find). It does have a unique recirculating brake fluid feature and twin front calipers as somewhat uncommon features.The differential when we got the car was a weisman locker(sort of rare).The 1973 fuel cells looked like they had never been out.
For these reasons, I believe:
the car ran F5000 in 1976 driven by Noyes
The car was a rebuilt car that had crashed previous to 1976, damaging the right front.
The car sat unmolested for about 20 years with rotted fuel cell foam keeping it from running, through several owners.
I think my best bet is to try to get hold of Mr. Moch, but doing a google search on Mr. Moch reveals a Lawyer/real estate developer in Grand rapids ,Mi. currently party to a series of environmental lawsuits regarding his developing efforts, and an un-listed phone number.
Looking at the pictures of HU32 that you sent me, I believe that that is indeed HU32 and not a "built-up" car. It has too many little, hard to find pieces that are absent on "built-up" cars. My car is very similar to HU32 in that it has EVERY little piece (with one exception) such as the lucas stop and rain lights, the original gages that still work and don't work for long, the original unmolested wiring harness, The original type bolts(that we just replaced for safety, etc.
I don't believe my car is a built - up car, and it is driving me mad trying to find it's history.
Elliott Forbes-Robinson has driven the Schkee and we chat at the races. I asked him about my dilema and he told me that back in the day, it was a big informal party in the pits. People swapping parts, qualifying one car and racing another, a real cluster**** , and that nobody gave a damn about the originality or correctness of modifications or repairs or anything for that matter.
They were lucky if the car ran the whole race and no one thought they would still be running next years events, much less 25 years later. He was making the point that it would be impossible to try to go back and re-construct the evolution of the cars and their modifcation/repais, as it was an on-going un-documented practice. "Not a factory effort".

If Noyes had three cars, I don't know what I have, but if Noyes had two cars, I believe I have as close as we'll ever come to HU51.

By the way Allen, I saw Larry Nevasier's T332 last weekend. Nice car and runs like a scalded dog. He posted the fastest lap time of the weekend.Suspension is all powder coated black and the bodywork is fresh Red. Runs BBS wheels I think.

Lynn Wei's Schkee is still in DB1 form I've been told, and has been to Watkins Glen for a Can Am reunion, but is not in running condition.

I am pitting this weekend with Steve Simpson at the "Walter Mitty Challenge" at Road Atlanta. Steve has an Unser T332, and I'll find out the specifics. He also has a Danny Sullivan Frisbee.

Wish me luck as this is the car's first race outing with new fuel cell foam since 1973.
to all, thanks for the help, and no, I'm not going to paint it yellow.

regards,
Johan

[Allen Brown]

Hi Johan

I am completely sure you have a real T332 and I'd bet that it's ex-Noyes. Pinning a chassis number to it will be difficult, for exactly the reasons EFR states. But don't give up - it could be the next jigsaw piece that solves the whole puzzle.

Good luck this weekend at the Mitty. Please grill Mr Simpson on his two cars for me.

Best regards

Allen

PS Good decision on the yellow!

[SCHKEE T332]

HUGE UPDATE !
I just spoke with Evan Noyes senior ! Unfortunately, his mother passed away yesterday and he did not feel like discussing cars in the least. I don't blame him. He did however give me a better contact number for him and agreed to speak with me about the cars, which he remembers, in "about a week or so". Also, he was amazed that the car(s) still existed. He remembered "a couple cars and LOADS of parts, again surprised that someone had saved all that "stuff".

Now then, what exactly should I ask him ? I need to keep it kind of "light". this is not a deposition....
My list:
Do you remember the Swiss Cheese body ?
How many F5000 cars did you have ?
Do you have the chassis plate for HU51 ?
Do you know the meaning of 76-2401?
Do you remember the car you sold Joe Moch ?
Do you know what happened to the yellow car ?
Do you still have any records you could share ?
Photos ? Pieces ? logbooks ?
Would you like to join TNF ?
Would you like to come to a race with our team ?

Anybody got any ideas for questions that would help solve the mysteries ? Anybody smart enough to ask all these questions without asking so MANY questions ? It would be great if he would write it down for us.

Glad he is still around anyway.
Best regards,
Johan

[ggnagy]

Have you guys concidered the fact that when a car gets it's SCCA logbook, the roll bar is stamped with the a number that has a prefix designating the region the tech inspector issuing the logbook is from? Perhaps the car was entered in a SCCA event and was teched by someone from the Des Moines Valley Region (76).. You might want to contact that region and see if they have a historian. DMVR Region

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by ggnagy
Have you guys concidered the fact that when a car gets it's SCCA logbook, the roll bar is stamped with the a number that has a prefix designating the region the tech inspector issuing the logbook is from? Perhaps the car was entered in a SCCA event and was teched by someone from the Des Moines Valley Region (76).. You might want to contact that region and see if they have a historian. DMVR Region

This was the system used in Nationals and Regionals but some time between 1972 and 1974 it changed for cars that made their first appearance in the 'Pro' series. Cars appearing in Formula 5000 in 1972 had a 72AXX number and this had evolved by 1974 to 74-XX where the XX element was a 2- or 3-digit number that appears to have been sequential. By 1976, we had 76-XX where XX related to the entry number of the car.

Even as late as 1977, a car that made its first appearance in a National would have the SCCA Region prefix. For example, Briggs and Breidenbach's Lola T333s first raced in Nationals in April and May 1977 in SoCal so have 33-XXX numbers.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
HUGE UPDATE !
I just spoke with Evan Noyes senior ! Unfortunately, his mother passed away yesterday and he did not feel like discussing cars in the least. I don't blame him. He did however give me a better contact number for him and agreed to speak with me about the cars, which he remembers, in "about a week or so". Also, he was amazed that the car(s) still existed. He remembered "a couple cars and LOADS of parts, again surprised that someone had saved all that "stuff".

Now then, what exactly should I ask him ? I need to keep it kind of "light". this is not a deposition....
My list:
Do you remember the Swiss Cheese body ?
How many F5000 cars did you have ?
Do you have the chassis plate for HU51 ?
Do you know the meaning of 76-2401?
Do you remember the car you sold Joe Moch ?
Do you know what happened to the yellow car ?
Do you still have any records you could share ?
Photos ? Pieces ? logbooks ?
Would you like to join TNF ?
Would you like to come to a race with our team ?

Anybody got any ideas for questions that would help solve the mysteries ? Anybody smart enough to ask all these questions without asking so MANY questions ? It would be great if he would write it down for us.

Glad he is still around anyway.
Best regards,
Johan

I'd suggest starting with:

* How many cars (i.e. Lola T332/T333s) did you have?
* Do you recall where they came from? (New complete car from Haas? New bare tub from Haas? Rebuilt/reconditioned tub from elsewhere?)
* Do you recall where they went? Does the name Joe Moch mean anything?
* Why more than one (get him to talk about the crashes)?

This will get him to think about the cars as separate entities rather than just thinking about his racing career. I'd stress to him that your primary goal is to sort out one car from another so anything that will help with that would be useful. Use open questions if he sounds like he's got time to chat.

Then try to work out which one did what:

* Which car(s) did you use in 1974 (ditto 1975, 1976, 1977)?
* Why the unusual (yellow) Can-Am bodywork?
* Do you recall the 'Swiss Cheese' bodywork? What was that for?

If he starts talking about "the yellow one" or "the Can-Am one", then pop in a question like "what became of that one". If he mentions a wreck, again it's a good opportunity to ask "what became of the wreck?" and "which car did you use after that crash?". Once he starts thinking chronologically, you'll find it's easier to get it all untangled.

I'd avoid mentioning "HU51" or "76-2401" until you've got him well warmed up. I'd be surprised if those numbers would mean anything to him.

Good luck

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

I just spent about 45 minutes on the phone with Mr. Evan Noyes . Very interesting conversation.
I'm not sure I know which car I have, but it was still an interesting conversation. I still think I have HU51, and that he carried HU34 as a roller in his truck for spares.the only other possibility is visa versa.
I took a page of notes.
In no prticular order, here is what he had to say:
From 1974 to 1976 he ran Lolas in formula 5000, prior to that Formula B.
He would take 1 complete care to the races , and a complete tub in the truck, with a transaxle and a engine, all to use as spares or to build a replacement car if needed.
He wrecked and rebuilt the Lola t332's, but always the same result at any race, 1 complete car and 1 disassembled car.
So Allen to answer your first question, he had perhaps 3-4 cars total. He bought a replacement tub from Lola once, and he bought a complete roller (roller meaning front suspension attached) once. This to keep his 2 cars at the track (1 complete and one for parts) thing going.

Allen , he sold both cars(all else he had had was trash in the dumpster) to the same person. One was complete and ready to run(with the swiss cheese body), the other was in roller form(front suspension attached). The complete car had a Lola body (with holes)on it.The other car had a bunch of spares with it (transaxle, body, etc.)

About the swiss cheese body:
According to Evan, his car was not ready for Mosport,They were making their own body, but he went anyway to "Schmooze in the pits". Brian Redman and someone else did blowovers. He ordered a Lola body at some point and was told to drill the holes in order to help prevent (but not eliminate) this problem. He never raced with the Lola body with the holes. He only installed the body to make it easier to sell the car.
He sold both cars to the same person. The person had one of the cars sold to Otis Chandler and was going to keep the other car for "free" . Otis never actually bought the car though.
He says he got the body that he cut the holes in in 1978, but never raced with it.
He says it was a waste of money because F5000 was the big vintage thing back then and he did not need the Can Am body to sell the car.
He says the front end damage happened to the car at Mosport (not sure when but F5000) 2 turns before the pits. He came around and the corner workers were flagging and he hit oil and spun a couple times, ending up backed into the guardrail inches from hitting it.
He made the mistake of staying in the car, and Al Unser Sr. came around and also lost it, hitting him pretty hard, nose to nose. He got hurt bad enough to break the skin on his legs from the sway bay (the front of the tub sustained slight damage) but the tub was repaired and he had no broken bones.
Other scary incidents were no brakes at three tracks, Road America, Watkins Glen, and Mid ohio.
He went off in the kink at Road America and ended up on the guardrail. This was perhaps the first of the 2 cars.
His worst wreck was turning a car over in Formula B. Never hurt himself in a Lola except the Unser thing.
His lap time at Road Atlanta was 1:18 , and Road America was 2:03.
These are fast times even today !
The car with the holes had a Bartz motor (It still does today )
The other car was a Roller (tub with wiring and front susp. , brakes, but motor not installed so no way to roll it around unless on a dolly) Again, he sold everything he had to one person.
He said to contact "Jim Bob Thupert", a member of his crew that sold T-shirts at The Indianapolis Speedway, Or Roy Campbell.
He also spent a considerable amout of time talking about the 1974 Long Beach Gran Prix and the death of Tony Bryes (killed in Grahm Hill's plane ?)

So........
From this I believe we now know that
The "swiss cheese body never raced but was ordered and cut after Noyes saw what happened to Redman, and that the front was damaged in the accident with Unser, hence the repair to my car.
Both cars sold to the same person (he does not remember to whom) perhaps Joe Moch , but he seemed to think the person was in California.
This might explain the truck in California full of parts thing, but it was not Wattles that told me that. It was Robinson who possibly heard it from Wattles. Allen, please, could we update your site just a bit so that we are not guilty of creating info ? Thanks, and that was a neat conversation to have with a guy that was there !

[SCHKEE T332]

I forgot to mention that when they got the replacement tub from Lola, it had a "data plate" on it according to Mr. Noyes.
He said the tub was a roller.
He absolutely knew nothing about the terms 76-2401, Hu 51, HU32, HU anything. He understood that he was #24 but had no recolection of any specifics on chassis numbers.

[Allen Brown]

Very interesting!! I will update my T332 page as soon as I've had time to digest all this.

The new "roller with a data plate" would be HU51 but it sounds as if disentangling the two cars could be virtually impossible.

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Yes, agreed.
Also I want to be clear that defining a car as a spare roller in the trailer in no way disparages it. Mr. Noyes told me in detail about how it was the best way to go, better than having two running cars. No matter what the trackside repair required, half the work was already done. I am sending him a picture (which I practically had to force on him) and he said he had a drawer of pictures he might go through sometime. He said one other thing.
He put racing behind him a long time ago. He enjoyed the Formula 5000 more than the Can Am.Really did not care for the can am at all. He said Formula 5000 was a big damn deal. I got the impression that he sold everything in 1978, but not certain. That is quite a while prior to Joe Moch offering the car(s) to Bud or Chuck.
The first thread of this post has some of the history, but alas, there is always more.

[Allen Brown]

Johan

Thought you'd be interested to know that I'm in touch with Roy Campbell's daughter and she tells me that the family has all his notebooks. They give precise details of all the cars he ran - she mentioned "paint numbers, tire sizes, for rain-heat,etc., and all intricate measurements for the engines". She's going to get them when she's in Florida next month.

Watch this space...

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, great ! Is Roy Campbell still with us I hope ?
So happy that information has found you, and a perfect home.
I have been busy. Are you aware that I have found and purchased the old Dan Gurney T70 spyder(SL71/34) ? I'm looking for photos of it from 1966/1967, especially the steering wheel. It has a clear history, thank goodness. I even got a congratulatory note from John Starkey.
I also have a T330 tub that was wrecked at Road Atlanta(and still sitting in the weeds off of turn 7 since 198?, in the Road Atlanta junk pile,full of old signs,etc .
I recieved it as a "Workers Choice Award" from the Road Atlanta corner workers(While driving a Lola at a Porsche Club event after my wiring melted on my Porsche(Backup cars are allowed, and do not have to be Porsche). We have been using it as a beer cooler for a few outings now, but the tub has some history to it, which I am happy to share if you would like . Are you ready for the next mystery ? The tub is beyond rebuilding in my opinion, but a tub in the weeds is an interesting tub indeed.
Best,
Johan

[Allen Brown]

Roy died about five years ago. Lisa is trying learn more about his life so we're exchanging information.

I do remember you mentioning the T330 tub - I look forward to learning more about.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Johan

I'm (finally!) updating my T332 page and went through that large post of yours after you spoke to Evan. The accident at Road America would be the one in July 1974 that ended the (first) life of HU32. He then had HU51 from September onwards. The next major accident I was aware of is the one David McKinney recounted at Levin in January 1975. Interesting that Even didn't list that one. This could well have been the end of the first HU51. So he then goes into the 1975 US season with two cars: one can be regarded as a repaired HU32 and one as a repaired HU51. But whether Campbell was still using those chassis plates or even regarded the cars as HU32 and HU51 is anyone's guess (until we see the notebooks).

So then, at Mosport in June 1975, he wrecks either the repaired HU32 or the repaired HU51 and has to repair them again. I can't pinpoint the Watkins Glen and Mid-Ohio accidents but he failed to start the final at Watkins Glen July 1976 for unknown reason, was a non-starter at Watkins Glen in July 1977 and crashed on lap 1 at Mid-Ohio in August 1977.

I suspect the rolling chassis he recalls (and also the replacement that he remembers having a data plate) is when he acquired HU51 in August 1974. What we don't know is when the other new tub arrived and which car was repaired with that. He does say that the Mosport June 1975 tub was repaired so maybe it was after New Zealand.

Without new information, I'd say that working out which car was which after Levin 1975 is not currently possible. But I haven't given up...

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, perhaps the notes can be of some help with the chassis identification, but I can't help believing that Mr. Campbell would be having a chuckle if he were to witness our diatribe about which car was which. I think he would just say "Man, we were racing and putting the cars together as fast as we could and if it worked, we did it". I have the car HU55 and I would have to see HU32 to see which car bears the most resemblance to "76-2401". I take my cars to as many races as possible, so eventually some comparisons can be made. I just wish you would update your site because it was not Stan Wattles that told me the car was in a trailer. I see Stan all the time and I cringe, thinking he will look at me funny or something like that, for over a year now.
I am at least certain at this point that there was not another car sold by Eagle Creek Aviation that was in better condition than my car that had more of an association with the number HU51, other than possibly HU32, but that car does not have a Bartz motor(does it ?) like mine (like HU51 ), and these motors do not just swap out in an hour or something. All the plumbing is specific, the linkages, the supports, etc. would all have to be replaced as well.

Regardless, the notes will be a true treasure trove of info from "back in the day".

Regarding the T330 tub, the Head corner worker that appreciates Lolas told me this info on the tub.
This is what I wrote down, verbatim:

Charlie Monk 1983 4th place 24000
1984 6th 38000
1985 Rod Cusimano Fairmont City
Car wrecked in 1985
John Mackaneuso stripped car of many parts
9th in 1985

Anyway, that's what I wrote down in the order that I wrote it. Does it make any sense to you, Allen ?

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
Regarding the T330 tub, the Head corner worker that appreciates Lolas told me this info on the tub.
This is what I wrote down, verbatim:

Charlie Monk 1983 4th place 24000
1984 6th 38000
1985 Rod Cusimano Fairmont City
Car wrecked in 1985
John Mackaneuso stripped car of many parts
9th in 1985

Anyway, that's what I wrote down in the order that I wrote it. Does it make any sense to you, Allen ?

Sounds like a set of results in the ASR class at the Run-Offs for Charlie Monk (who ran a 'Frissbee' or 'Frissbee-Lola T333' in 1983 and 1984) and Rod Cusumano (who ran a 'Frissbee' or 'Frissbee-Lola T333' in 1985). I don't have results from the Run-Offs in those years but maybe somebody here can post them.

I didn't know that Cusumano bought Monk's car but the dates are right and the cars' descriptions are similar. Monk had bought the car from John Kalagian who ran it in 1982. Kalagian had bought it from John Morton but Morton was involved with several early Frissbees and it's hard to work out which one this could have been. If the tub you have really can be traced back to the Morton-Kalagian transaction, then I'm surprised it's a T330.

That revised T332 page should be posted in the next few days.

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Allen, sorry about this but how do I tell the difference ? I hate to admit this but I just assumed it was a T330 because it looks older than the T332's I have, but it has had a hard life.

[Allen Brown]

Do you have a picture of the T330 tub as you found it? I have found a pretty good close-up of the left side of Cusumano's car and I'd like to compare it.

BTW, it would be John Macaluso who stripped the parts. He ran a odd-looking T332 conversion in 1984, 1985 and 1986.

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

We were drinking...

[SCHKEE T332]

I'm going out right now and take a picture of it, and then I will e-mail it to you. I'll be back in few minutes.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by SCHKEE T332
Allen, sorry about this but how do I tell the difference ? I hate to admit this but I just assumed it was a T330 because it looks older than the T332's I have, but it has had a hard life.

You're asking the wrong man! If it just looks old and tired, that fits in with it having raced for well over ten seasons. I'd guess it was built on whatever was left of Morton's old 1975 T332 - the one he wrecked at Road Atlanta (coincidentally) in May 1978. Or possibly his T333CS from 1978-1979 but that is more likely to have gone into Morton's own 1981-82 Frissbee which is now with Victor Felice.

I guess we'd need to ask John Morton and see if he remembers what he sold to Kalagian.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Who was drinking?!

I must remember to refresh before posting!

[SCHKEE T332]

We were drinking. It was the social hour(s) after the track day and the corner workers gave me the tub because they liked the Lola I had run at the Porsche club event.
I have the picture. I'll see what I can find for your e-mail.

[Allen Brown]

allen@oldracingcars.com

[SCHKEE T332]

Done. Feel free to post them here if you wish.

[SCHKEE T332]

Did you get the pics ?

[Allen Brown]

Here are Johan's pictures:







And here, for comparison, is a T332 being built at Huntingdon in 1974:





I don't have comparison pictures of a T330 which I believe is unmistakably different around the front suspension. The car has been modified significantly around the "dash" and also has what appears to be a front end repair covering where the chassis plate would once have been.

And it's had quite a wallop!

Allen

[SCHKEE T332]

Yes, quite a wallop. There are two holes that are spaced about right for a plate though.
The repair was done with galvanized steel !