18 replies to this topic

[Reyna]

This year we will see the XLIX (49º) Spanish Grand Prix.
Here you have my complete list of the Spanish GP... Are we agree ??



I - 1.913, 15/06. Guadarrama . Touring cars. (I RACE Grand Prix).
II - 1.923, 28/10. Sitges . 2.000 cc.
III - 1.924, 27/9. Lasarte. 2.000 cc, 650 Kgs. (II San Sebastián Grand Prix).
IV - 1.925, 19/9. Lasarte . + 1.400 cc. (III San Sebastián Grand Prix).
V - 1.926, 25/07. Lasarte . F Libre.
VI - 1.927, 31/07. Lasarte . 1.500cc, + 700 Kgs.
VII - 1.928, 29/07. Lasarte. Sports cars (Handicap clas.).
VIII - 1.929, 28/07. Lasarte . Sports cars.
IX - 1930, 5/10. Lasarte. F Libre. (VIII San Sebastián Grand Prix).
X - 1.933, 24/09. Lasarte . F Libre.
XI - 1.934, 23/09. Lasarte . Max. 750 Kgs.
XII - 1.935, 22/09. Lasarte . Max. 750 Kgs.
XIII - 1.951, 28/10. Pedralbes , F1.
XIV - 1.954, 24/10. Pedralbes , F1. (IX Barcelona Cup).
XV - 1.967, 12/11. Jarama , F1 / F2. Non Championship race.
XVI - 1.968, 15/05. Jarama , F1.
XVII - 1.969, 4/05. Montjuich , F1.
XVIII - 1.970, 19/04. Jarama , F1.
XIX - 1.971, 18/04. Montjuich , F1.
XX - 1.972, 1/05. Jarama , F1.
XXI - 1.973, 29/04. Montjuich , F1.
XXII - 1.974, 28/04. Jarama , F1.
XXIII - 1.975, 27/04. Montjuich, F1.
XXIV - 1.976, 2/05. Jarama , F1.
XXV - 1.977, 8/05. Jarama , F1.
XXVI - 1.978, 4/06. Jarama , F1.
XXVII - 1.979, 29/04. Jarama , F1.
XXVIII - 1.980, 1/06. Jarama, F1. Non Championship race.
XXIX - 1.981, 21/06. Jarama, F1.
XXX - 1.986, 13/04. Jerez , F1.
XXXI - 1.987, 27/09. Jerez , F1.
XXXII - 1.988, 2/10. Jerez, F1.
XXXIII - 1.989, 1/10. Jerez , F1.
XXXIV - 1.990, 30/09. Jerez , F1.
XXXV - 1.991, 20/09. Catalunya , F1.
XXXVI - 1.992, 3/05. Catalunya , F1.
XXXVII - 1.993, 9/05. Catalunya , F1.
XXXVIII - 1.994, 29/05. Catalunya, F1.
XXXIX - 1.995, 14/05. Catalunya , F1.
XL - 1.996, 2/06. Catalunya, F1.
XLI - 1.997, 25/05. Catalunya, F1.
XLII - 1.998, 10/05. Catalunya, F1
XLIII - 1.999, 30/05. Catalunya , F1.
XLIV - 2.000, 7/05. Catalunya, F1
XLV - 2.001, 29/04. Catalunya , F1.
XLVI - 2.002, 28/04. Catalunya, F1.
XLVII - 2.003, 4/05. Catalunya , F1
XLVIII - 2.004, 9/05. Catalunya , F1
XLIX - 2.005, 8/05. Catalunya , F1

[Hans Etzrodt]

The following four events cannot be considered Spanish Grand Prix because these races never carried the title Spanish Grand Prix.
II - 1.923, 28/10. Sitges . 2.000 cc.
III - 1.924, 27/9. Lasarte. 2.000 cc, 650 Kgs. (II San Sebastián Grand Prix).
IV - 1.925, 19/9. Lasarte . + 1.400 cc. (III San Sebastián Grand Prix).
IX - 1930, 5/10. Lasarte. F Libre. (VIII San Sebastián Grand Prix).

The title of an event cannot be changed subsequently because it would be historically incorrect. You cannot rewrite history but some people do falsify history for their own means. Therefore you cannot rename certain important Spanish races by giving them the title Spanish Grand Prix, just because that event happened to be the most important formula race that year in Spain.

If you would read the contemporary press you would know that my statement is correct. Unfortunately there are some big names behind some books who state otherwise but those journalists are just poorly informed and spread wrong information. The worst part is that those people are often too conceited to re-educate themselves.

[Reyna]

Ok. Hans, but why we have this year the 49º Spanish Grand Prix ?

In the late sixties, or earlie seventies, the RACE (Spanish Royal Automobile Club) renumered the Spanish GP, in fact the 1973 GP was the XXI. Is for that they added, ad posteriori, the title Grand Prix to some races like Sitges 1923 and Lasarte 1924/25/30.

[Hans Etzrodt]

I don't know which Spanish faction screwed around with these events. Someone from Gibraltar ;) told me once that there are three different factions in Spain -if I remember correctly- and none of them seems to be right.

Where is Félix when you need him?

[Reyna]

We have discussed all that with Felix at the Spanish Forum.

Spanish GP 1924-1925

[Hans Etzrodt]

So, what was the verdict?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Reyna
We have discussed all that with Felix at the Spanish Forum.

Spanish GP 1924-1925

Ok, I went there. I posted and got this message:
Failed sending email :: PHP ::

DEBUG MODE

Line : 246
File : /home/html/foro/historia/includes/emailer.php

So, what gives?

[Vitesse2]

It always does that to me, Hans. But your post does appear.;)

[robert dick]

"The Motor"/London - June 1913 :
"Favored by the royal patronage of King Alphonso, the Spanish grand prix race was run over a 64-mile course on June 15 and won by Don Carlos de Salamanca in a Rolls-Royce car. The victor covered three laps or 192 miles in 3 h 34 min and 12 sec. The race was a handicap contest. There was a minimum weight for each car according to its horsepower, which was arrived at by a formula which included the revolutions per minute of the engine at its maximum power. The competitors had to drive fully equipped four-seated touring cars with hood, lamps and two spare tires. All bonnets were sealed before the start, the gasoline carried being measured previously, and drivers were not allowed to take on water during the race."

1) D. Carlos de Salamanca (Rolls-Royce) - 3:34:12
2) Marques de Ugena (Schneider) - 3:37:04
3) G. Eric Platford (Rolls-Royce) - 3:39:56
4) Marques de Aulencia (Lorraine-Dietrich) - 4:07:51
5) Conde de la Patilla (Minerva) - 4:08:22
6) D. Angel Santibanez (Panhard) - 4:18:19
7) Duque de Zaragoza (Mercedes) - 4:19:57
8) D. J. Doman Manzona (Opel) - 4:55:42
9) Don Juan G. Ocana (Delaunay-Belleville) - 5:02:26

[Reyna]

????

For the 1913 Spanish Grand Prix i have these results:

1º. Carlos de Salamanca - Rolls-Royce Sylver Ghost "Alpine Eagle" (1913) - 3h 34' 11'' 6/10
2º. Marqués de Aulencia - Lorraine Dietrich (1912) - 3h 37' 03'' 8/10
3º. Georges Eric Plattford - Rolls-Royce (1913) - 3h 39' 55'' 6/10
4º. Marquis d'Avaray - De Dion Buton (1913) - 3h 49' 43'' 4/10
5º. Julio Labayen - Panhard Levassor (1913) - 3h 50' 56'' 8/10
6º. Marqués de Ugena - Teophile Schneider (1913) - 4h 07' 50'' 8/10
7º. Conde de la Patilla - Minerva (1913) - 4h 08' 22'' 8/10
8º. Angel G. Santibáñez - Panhard Levassor (1911) - 4h 18' 18'' 8/10
9º. Duque de Zaragoza - Mercedes (1911) - 4h 19' 57'' 4/10
10º. Juan Román Manzano - Opel (1913) - 4h 57' 41'' 8/10
11º Juan B. García Ocaña - Delaunay Belleville (1912) - 5h 04' 25'' 6/10
DNF - José Toda - Teophile Schneider

[robert dick]

Originally posted by Reyna
????

Seems that the result published in The Motor immediately after the event was corrected afterwards.

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt

The title of an event cannot be changed subsequently because it would be historically incorrect. You cannot rewrite history but some people do falsify history for their own means. Therefore you cannot rename certain important Spanish races by giving them the title Spanish Grand Prix, just because that event happened to be the most important formula race that year in Spain.

If you would read the contemporary press you would know that my statement is correct. Unfortunately there are some big names behind some books who state otherwise but those journalists are just poorly informed and spread wrong information. The worst part is that those people are often too conceited to re-educate themselves.

Hans

I don't know if this is completely true.
There are some very clear examples of the otherwise.

The Olympic Wintergames of 1924 were originally called "Semaine des Sports d'Hiver". Only in 1926 they were recognised as Olympic Wintergames.

The FIS ski Games before WW2 were awarded Worldchampionship status after WW2.

The European Nations Championship in Soccer were originally called European Nations Cup (I admit a slight difference).
However the Worldchampionship is still called the World Cup in Britain if I remember correctly.

In cycling there have been also different kind of names for the same race. The oldest remaining classic "Liège-Bastogne-Liège" (1892) was originally called Liege-Spa-Liège in 1894.

And in car racing the first GP de l'ACF was retrospectively Paris-Marseille-Paris 1896. The Grand Prix won by Ferenc Szisz was the ninth GP de l'ACF. (see Paul Sheldon).


Gerrit Stevens

[Barttore]

Are there moving pictures to be found of the race in 1930, 5/10. Lasarte. F Libre. (VIII San Sebastián Grand Prix).

I tried Youtube but no result.

Any help appreciated !

[Rob29]

Are there moving pictures to be found of the race in 1930, 5/10. Lasarte. F Libre. (VIII San Sebastián Grand Prix).

I tried Youtube but no result.

Any help appreciated !

Sorry I don't think so-I collect old videos.Only 1930 footage I have is from a Shell History of motor racing'series brief black & white clips of Monaco,Brooklands ,Le Mans,Pau & Ards TT.

[ray b]

why the  . in a date ?

 

yes I know the euro's use a . instead of a ,

but I never see ether in used a date

[Barttore]

Hello Ray,

If you really want to know:

I copied the . from the opening post, without noticing it myself;

so you could have seen it before, as there are several in that post  .

 

What I did find until now was great pictures at http://www.kutxateka.../entity_id/2449

[D-Type]

Apropos the original question: Where do the Penya Rhin series of races fit in?  I have seen some authors describe them as Spanish Grands Prix.

 

Regarding dates and numbers: In Britain and Europe, one thousand and one would be 1,001 the same as the USA with a comma for the thousands, but as you say never 1.001.  The difference comes with decimal numbers. In Britain (and I think the USA) one-and-a-half in decimals is written 1.5 while in [Continental] Europe it is often written 1,5. 

And lets not go into the American month-day-year vs European day-month-year.

 

I'm afraid I can't help at all with the 1930 race. 

[Rob G]

why the  . in a date ?

 

yes I know the euro's use a . instead of a ,

but I never see ether in used a date

My guess is the OP probably copied the data from a spreadsheet, but he didn't have the column set to ignore numerical punctuation (or whatever it's called) in his spreadsheet application.

[Michael Ferner]

It's simply Reyna's personal way of writing years - I think he always punctuates 'em.