25 replies to this topic

[aerogi]

What is the 'oldest' car ever entered in a F1 Grand Prix race? Many privateers bought a chassis from the previous year(s). Especially in the 60s and 70s. For example the RAM team in 1976 used the Brabham BT42 chassis for Neve and Kessel.

I guess it would be the pre-war cars that entered the F1 scene in early 50s like the Talbot's? But apart from that, what other 'old' cars have lined-up since then?

Not sure if my question is clear, but I'm just curious...

[Geza Sury]

If we talked about World Championship races one candidate must be Bob Gerard's ERA A-type which was entered for the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix. This car was built sometime between 1934 and '37. I'm sure someone knows the exact chassis number and the year it was built...

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure some of the Maseratis entered in those times were pretty old too... maybe not quite that old, but certainly pre-war.

If we weren't talking about F1, but Grands Prix anywhere, you'd go a long way to beat Rex Law's Regal Special entered at Leyburn in 1949. It had a 1911 chassis. And it was another two years before that car lost the outright lap record at Lowood, too.

Mick Geneve's car at the 1957 AGP was essentially a 1922 Ballot with a GMC engine. More recently, the 1979 AGP featured the El Toro, which dated back to 1961.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
If we talked about World Championship races one candidate must be Bob Gerard's ERA A-type which was entered for the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix. This car was built sometime between 1934 and '37. I'm sure someone knows the exact chassis number and the year it was built...

R4A. Built late 1934 IIRC.

R1A appeared in non-championship races in 1950 and was joined by R2A in 1951: R1A actually had its last race in F1 in the 1952 Ulster Trophy, aged 18!

Mention should also be made of Tony Rolt running one of the 1927 GP Delages (albeit fitted with an ERA engine!) as late as 1952. Two Delages were in circulation in 1950, but neither ever started a championship race.

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
If we weren't talking about F1, but Grands Prix anywhere, you'd go a long way to beat Rex Law's Regal Special entered at Leyburn in 1949. It had a 1911 chassis. And it was another two years before that car lost the outright lap record at Lowood, too.

Mick Geneve's car at the 1957 AGP was essentially a 1922 Ballot with a GMC engine. More recently, the 1979 AGP featured the El Toro, which dated back to 1961.

That's nothing, in 1949 Lindley Bothwell tried to qualify a 1914 Peugeot EX5 at the Indy 500. But 1911 is earlier than 1914, I hear you say? Well, the Peugeot wasn't just an old chassis reused and modified and fitted with a new engine and all that, it was the real deal! Reputedly the 1916 winner, driven by Dario Resta (although I have my doubts...), still with the original engine and various other bits. Only the tyres looked out of place.

[ensign14]

There must be some dirt cars entered in top line AAA/USAC Championship racing that were aeons old. For how long did Basement Bessie keep going?

[fines]

W/o checking I believe about 15 years. There were some in duty much longer than that, I recall that Carl Gehlhausen ran a KK chassis of the late fourties/early fifties well into the seventies. Did probably have the original engine, too!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by fines
That's nothing, in 1949 Lindley Bothwell tried to qualify a 1914 Peugeot EX5 at the Indy 500. But 1911 is earlier than 1914, I hear you say? Well, the Peugeot wasn't just an old chassis reused and modified and fitted with a new engine and all that, it was the real deal! Reputedly the 1916 winner, driven by Dario Resta (although I have my doubts...), still with the original engine and various other bits. Only the tyres looked out of place.

I agree, fee-nes... that does kind of put the issue beyond doubt...

The Regal chassis had a Chrysler front axle, Austin steering box (I think), Austin rear axle converted to hydraulic brakes and a Dodge gearbox attached to the back of the Cadillac engine. But it lived a continuing life throughout, the Austin stuff coming in 1932/33 when the Regal engine and gearbox were done in, at the same time a new body. The Chrysler axle and brakes went onto the front in 1946/7, then after a short time with the Austin 6 truck engine in 1948 it got the Caddy engine in 1949.

The Targa Ballot was complete from 1922 to 1935, then needed a new chassis (Chev 4) to reappear in 1936. But the engine blew up at that time, so a Ford V8 went into it, then the body was replaced, and replaced again later. Other engines came and went... Chrysler and GMC... before finally it had a Corvette engine. At the time it killed its second driver (both killed after the car rolled going down a straight... both were ex-motorcycle racers...), it came to its end.

[D-Type]

At le mans in 1950 Eddie Hall ran his prewar Derby Bentley that dated from1936 or 37.

[uechtel]

Strictly by the words I think the oldest car ever entered in a F1 GP race I think it´s Luigi Plate´s Talbot 700 entered in the Italian GP 1950, at least that´s what I found in my Sheldon. According to that at that time the car was 24 years of age, having appeared in 1926 for the first time (first entry French GP 1926, first start British GP 1926).

The trophy for the oldest car to actually take part should go to the same car, Italian GP 1949, when Plate retired after two laps.

Rolt´s Delage would have been better on that one if only his entry hadn´t been refused for the British GP 1950 when his car was regarded too obsolete...

[simonlewisbooks]

Was the Rolt/Walker Delage actually an original 1927 chassis? Didn't Bira have some replica frames built up around 1937 by Rubery Owen (or someone similar) and wasn't one of these the "ERA-Delage"?
That would take a decade off it's age, although not it's design!

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com
Purveyors of Motor Sport Books and Photos Since 1985

[David McKinney]

The car which became the ERA-Delage did indeed use one of the 1937 chassis

[Frank S]

Originally posted by fines

That's nothing, in 1949 Lindley Bothwell tried to qualify a 1914 Peugeot EX5 at the Indy 500. But 1911 is earlier than 1914, I hear you say? Well, the Peugeot wasn't just an old chassis reused and modified and fitted with a new engine and all that, it was the real deal! Reputedly the 1916 winner, driven by Dario Resta (although I have my doubts...), still with the original engine and various other bits. Only the tyres looked out of place.

Broke the car's earlier lap record at something over 112 mph, if I recall correctly.

Here it is at home in Bothwell's museum, last June:





--
Frank S

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
More recently, the 1979 AGP featured the El Toro, which dated back to 1961.

What was that Ray? an F5000? Converted from what, a Tasman car? Surely it must have been updated safety structures wise?

[Ray Bell]

Oh, it was a pretty seedy machine, really...

IIRC, it had an Alfa 1600 engine, which replaced whatever had replaced the replacement for the Peugeot 403 engine of its youth. There were lots of other changes too, no doubt, but the lineage of the car showed it was the one car.

At the time, the Australian GP wasn't restricted to F5000. In fact, it never was... and these cars ran with the F5000s regularly.

[Graham Clayton]

The opening round of the 1955 NASCAR season featured Ken Pace driving a '49 model Hudson. it was the last NASCAR race to feature a '49 model compete, and I believe that this six-year old car is the "oldest" to compete in a NASCAR race.

 

http://www.racing-re.../race/1955-01/W

[Duc-Man]

There is an Opel Manta running at the Nürburgring endurance championship since 1994.

 

 

The car has close to 3000(!) laps and over 70.000km (over 43.000 miles) at the Nürburgring.

[Michael Ferner]

The opening round of the 1955 NASCAR season featured Ken Pace driving a '49 model Hudson. it was the last NASCAR race to feature a '49 model compete, and I believe that this six-year old car is the "oldest" to compete in a NASCAR race.
 
http://www.racing-re.../race/1955-01/W

Hardly. Maybe the oldest car in NASCAR's Late Model division, but I doubt that anything running in their Speedway, Midget or Modified Stock divisions was less than six years old!

[Jim Thurman]

Hardly. Maybe the oldest car in NASCAR's Late Model division, but I doubt that anything running in their Speedway, Midget or Modified Stock divisions was less than six years old!

 

  Yes, there was some positively ancient equipment in the Speedway division.  Keep in mind that the modified division had plenty of newly constructed "old" cars. Old body styles, new chassis and motors. A 30s era coupe body on a chassis built in the 1960s or even early 1970s.  And by the mid-70s, you could have had a very old chassis with "new" body style (Ford Pinto, Chevrolet Vega, etc.)

[Michael Ferner]

Modifieds are, admittedly, not my forte. But yes, I'm aware of the newly built "old" cars. My point, as I'm sure you know, was that NASCAR, especially in the forties and fifties, was hardly known for spanking new equipment.

[Jim Thurman]

Modifieds are, admittedly, not my forte. But yes, I'm aware of the newly built "old" cars. My point, as I'm sure you know, was that NASCAR, especially in the forties and fifties, was hardly known for spanking new equipment.

 

I was aiming it more at others here who might not know as much. Actually, by 1949, there were probably some "new" modifieds in NASCAR, depending on the definition of "new"    Now, the stock car/modified racing scene of 1946-47, was full of six or seven year old cars...obviously.  It's interesting that a pre-war coupe stripped down for modified competition would have still been newer than some of the Speedway division entries running three and four years later.

[Doug Nye]

Broke the car's earlier lap record at something over 112 mph, if I recall correctly.

Here it is at home in Bothwell's museum, last June:





--
Frank S

 

The Lindley Bothwell 1914 GP Peugeot - ex-Indianapolis, ex-Ralph Mulford and Art Klein was sold yesterday by Bonhams at the Bothwell Ranch - for $7,260,000 (£5,505,115).  In the same Sale Lindley's c.1908 Mercedes Simplex 2-seater sold for $1,072,500 (£813,255) and his ex-Barney Oldfield c.1908 Mercedes 75/105hp Prinz Heinrich achieved $1,870,000 (£1,417,984).

 

DCN

[Glengavel]

I'm sure some Indy 500 roadsters might qualify; in terms of design if not actual individual car age.

[Lee Nicolle]

Dirt oval track cars had plenty of longevity, some of the Curtis etc midgets raced for over 20 years competitvly. Quite possibly Grandpas axe but quite old cars.

Some here in Oz raced as long too.

My Classic Supermodified built in 68 last raced in  82. It is still largely original. As did several others though that really was the end of them as Sprintcars took over. Some however were heavily modified over the years.

And as Classics we still have the problem with early Sprinters running with SuperMods.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 13 November 2017 - 03:29.

[Lee Nicolle]

There is an Opel Manta running at the Nürburgring endurance championship since 1994.

 

 

The car has close to 3000(!) laps and over 70.000km (over 43.000 miles) at the Nürburgring.

And only driven on weekends by carefull drivers. Never thrashed or crashed!

Sounds like some Used Car adds!

[Lee Nicolle]

With National level Sports Sedans the Ricciardello K&A built Alfa GTV Chev Sports Sedan is still winning though finding it increasingly hard. And is 26 years old.

My old Torana XU1 Sports Sedan too is still around too, though not doing much. And that was logbooked in 1980. Though very much Grandpas axe as all that is original is the roof, A ,B,C pillars and left door.

As is the case of many others of similar vintage.