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Senna in the Merc 190E race; Nurburgring 1984


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#1 ViMaMo

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 23:18

Hello!

I came across a event that I have never heard of previously while I was searching for races on the Old Nurb... and in Grandprix.com, i saw the following passage

Other racing went on for another six years but in May 1982 the old circuit held its last international event - a 1000km sportscar race - and work began on the vast new Nurburgring. This extraordinary enterprise was completed in the Spring of 1982 and to celebrate the event the Nurburgring management decided to hold a race with one of the best grids in the history of the sport. The cars were identical Mercedes 190Es and the 20 drivers included Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Alain Prost, Alan Jones, Carlos Reutemann, Jacques Laffite, John Watson, Ayrton Senna, Jody Scheckter, James Hunt, Stirling Moss, Jack Brabham, Phil Hill, Denny Hulme, John Surtees and Elio de Angelis. Senna, a new boy in F1 that year, beat Lauda by just over a second with Reutemann, Rosberg and Watson right behind.

Anyone can throw some light on the event?

Thank you :up:

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#2 Twin Window

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 23:38

If my memory serves, it was later than 1982 - more like 1984 - which would tally with Senna's presence, and also the first GP on the new track taking place in 1985.

Didn't PMA/Minichamps make a model of Senna in that Merc?

#3 ghinzani

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 23:51

Its definately 84, I've got an old Motor magazine here. They said Senna was very focused on winning it because it would send out a signal in equal equipment to the top men that he had arrived. So he did.

#4 Wolf

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 00:35

Am I mistaken, or did in this race Senna show the shape of things to come by 'trading some paint' with Prost?

#5 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 06:58

This race was held as part of the inaugural event of the newly built Grand Prix Strecke in 1984.

#6 TheStranger

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:12

Rob's correct on this one - Senna was also there that weekend for the first ever 1000k on the new track, driving in the Joest #7 New Man 956 which won at LeMans that year (driven by Pescarolo/Ludwig).

The original information is a little bit wrong as well on the last ever full-Nordschliefe 1000k - that was the 1983 race, when Stefan Bellof set the all time lap record of 6:11 in practice in his factory 956.

#7 pingst

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:48

The year was 1984 and in the book "The Life Of Senna" ( Tom Rubython) one of the chapters describes this race. The winner car of the race was to go in the Mercedes Bendz museum. I was told that the people at Mercedes want some of the more famous driver won the race. But Senna had to be the most famous in a few year.

#8 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:48

yes, this inaugural race of the newly-built saw senna winning in a mercedes benz 190 e 2,3 16 valve model (btw engine developped with help of cosworth) and lauda taking second place copying his 1984 style of races starting from the back of the grid and finishing on the podium. this race and the other sportscar race mentioned were the only two races IIRC senna ever raced non-single seater.

#9 gbl

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 08:45

I recently saw a video of Senna in that car but didn't tape it.

Here's a picture:

http://www.germancar...mercedes/1.html

http://www.germancar...mercedes/1.html

#10 D-Type

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 11:41

In post 1 it says there were 20 starters, and it lists 17 of them. does anybody know who the other three were?

#11 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 12:31

Originally posted by TheStranger
Rob's correct on this one - Senna was also there that weekend for the first ever 1000k on the new track, driving in the Joest #7 New Man 956 which won at LeMans that year (driven by Pescarolo/Ludwig).


According to my notes the first ever event on the new Nürburgring was held on June 16th-17th, 1984 - a round of the Deutsche Productionswagen Meisterschaft (DPM), the future DTM, and a round of German F3.
The 1000 K took place on July 15th.

Can't find the link, but this has been discussed before.

Best regards
Jesper

#12 Pedro 917

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 18:24

Here's a press article my brother sent me :

Posted Image

and the start of the race, Senna in # 11 (pressphoto Mercedes-Benz) :

Posted Image

and the result of the race :

Posted Image

#13 Pedro 917

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 18:26

and Mercedes sent the car to Goodwood, Festival Of Speed 2004 :

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#14 Pedro 917

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 18:42

found another picture :

Posted Image

and an action picture of the car, courtesy of my friend Wilfried Geerts:
Posted Image

#15 paulsenna1

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 18:44

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi
this race and the other sportscar race mentioned were the only two races IIRC senna ever raced non-single seater.


Senna won a Talbot Sunbeam race at Oulton Park on 30th May 1982.

#16 ViMaMo

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 20:18

Lovely, thanks :up:

#17 ghinzani

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 20:43

So Senna would have shared a podium with Lole? Awesome! Two of my top three favourite South American F1 drivers.

#18 fines

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 11:23

It's interesting to see the official results sheet, I think it dispells all notions about Senna being in a class of his own on equal machinery. My recollection is that he was the only one seriously racing for a win, the overall attitude being more of a drive for fun with a bit of dicing. I'm not at all clear about this, but wasn't Senna running up front and defending his position by all means necessary?

The individual fastest laps tell it all: Jody Scheckter was a full second faster than Senna, and even Jack Brabham (at close to 60, wasn't he?) lapped faster than the 'wunderkind'.

#19 Holger Merten

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 14:51

If I remember right, it was a hard fight against Lauda. Lauda also wanted to win this race on HIS track wich was opened now once again in F1 status after the 1976 crash. But the list of competitors is interesting: Names like Hans Herrmann, Klaus Ludwig, some F1 competitors of the 1984 season and Manfred Schurti, who - AFAIK - never raced in F1. What were the rules to take part in this race?

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#20 ghinzani

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 15:08

Originally posted by fines
It's interesting to see the official results sheet, I think it dispells all notions about Senna being in a class of his own on equal machinery.
The individual fastest laps tell it all: Jody Scheckter was a full second faster than Senna, and even Jack Brabham (at close to 60, wasn't he?) lapped faster than the 'wunderkind'.


I might take a little bit of issue with that, because it was Sennas 2nd ever tin top race, whereas Jody, Lauda, Brabham etc had all extensive Touring and Sports car experience. I think what it shows is Sennas determination was such that it allowed him to win. Piquet should have taken notice then and quit ;)

#21 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 15:46

Originally posted by Holger Merten
If I remember right, it was a hard fight against Lauda. Lauda also wanted to win this race on HIS track wich was opened now once again in F1 status after the 1976 crash. But the list of competitors is interesting: Names like Hans Herrmann, Klaus Ludwig, some F1 competitors of the 1984 season and Manfred Schurti, who - AFAIK - never raced in F1. What were the rules to take part in this race?


I've always found this race fascinating, and I'll second Holger's question: how did the organisers come up with the startlist? Also, was there a qualifying session of some sort? How was the grid order determined?

#22 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 16:03

Of course I should check with my Ring book first before asking questions.

Thora Hornung's "Die Nürburgring Story" shows a photo of Lauda during a training (possibly qualifying) for this race driving a black car with startnumber 20. Another image shows Lauda driving the race with a silver car with number 18.

The book also says that Emerson Fittipaldi was among the participants.

"Nürburgring, Chronik..." by Födisch says there were 21 participants, but the result of the race is given as Senna, ahead of Lauda, Rosberg, Watson and Prost, which, surely, is incorrect. According to the author, the grid consisted out of "former F1 worldchampions, Grand Prix drivers, and Nürburgring winners".

Notice how there's no startnumber 13 on the official result sheet.

#23 CJE

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 22:43

"Didn't PMA/Minichamps make a model of Senna in that Merc?"

Yes. They did the Senna car and I believe they recently did the Lauda car as well. Both in 1:43 scale.

#24 fines

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 15:17

Originally posted by ghinzani
I might take a little bit of issue with that, because it was Sennas 2nd ever tin top race, whereas Jody, Lauda, Brabham etc had all extensive Touring and Sports car experience. I think what it shows is Sennas determination was such that it allowed him to win. Piquet should have taken notice then and quit ;)

How many tin top races stood to Prost's credit, then? Maybe Senna should have taken notice there and quit... ?;)

#25 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 16:37

Originally posted by fines
The individual fastest laps tell it all: Jody Scheckter was a full second faster than Senna, and even Jack Brabham (at close to 60, wasn't he?) lapped faster than the 'wunderkind'.


Blackie made something of a speciality of remaining a ferociously quick and committed racer far into retirement. From memory he qualified fastest overall for an IROC race in the US and put numerous very much younger stars squarely in their place in that race. His continuing totally committed approach to occasional racing also contributed to his ugly shunt at the Goodwood Revival Meeting in the unfortunate Bruce McCaw's McLaren-BRM M5A. Dan Gurney is another driver perhaps pressured to retire before he was really ready. Like Jack, when he has gone out in a racing car since it has also been For Real....

DCN

#26 ReWind

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 16:47

Just to dampen your enthusiasm for Scheckter’s and Brabham’s abilities in comparison to Senna’s this is what „sport auto“ had to say about drivers’ antics on that day:

from issue 6/1984, p. 117
Die frierenden Zuschauer verblüffte weniger das Ergebnis, vielmehr erwärmten sie sich für die eigenwillige Streckeninterpretation einiger Piloten. Nachdem Jody Scheckter vorgemacht hatte, wie man erfolgreich die Schikane austrickst (er kürzte über den Rasen ab), eiferten ihm zahlreiche Fahrer nach.

Well, cutting off the chicane could have been worth more than one second…

On the other side it seems that Senna himself had similar habits:

from MOTORSPORT aktuell 21/1984, p. 17
Ayrton Senna hatte schon im Training angedeutet, dass er Leuten wie Lauda, Prost, Rosberg, de Angelis um die Rückspiegel fahren werde, wenn’s sein muss mit krassen Abkürzungen und über andere Autos.



#27 ghinzani

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 17:12

There you go Fines, clear as mud! :lol:

#28 fines

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 14:43

I plead for inconclusive evidence... or, rather, insignificant event? :drunk: :D

#29 BRG

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 14:57

Originally posted by Pedro 917
and Mercedes sent the car to Goodwood, Festival Of Speed 2004

I wonder about the provenance of that car.

Why would Mercedes have carefully preserved a car in which some precocious young driver (which is all that Senna was back then) had won a one-off 'celebrity' race? How prescient were they to realise that he would become so great? Or alternatively, it is just a replica. After all, if Hill, Surtees, Brabham or Hulme had won that race, the car would be one used by a former WC. But Senna was nobody much at that time - a F1 rookie driving for a minor team.

#30 Pedro 917

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 15:11

BRG, you'll find the answer in post # 7.
Mercedes said the winning car would receive a place in the museum. Of course, at the time, they were disappointed Senna won. My guess is that today, they're rather happy he did....

#31 BRG

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 15:16

Oops, I missed that point! Thanks Pedro917.

#32 fines

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 16:31

And, also, Senna was being hailed as the next big star from a very early time. Certainly well before 1984.

#33 BRG

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 16:48

True, he was, but so have been many others.

But guys like Stefano Modena, Jan Magnussen or Mike Thackwell (to name but three) who were all hailed as the next superstar signally failed to impress in F1. Mercedes are obviously lucky not to have an exhibit in their musuem about which visitors mostly mutter 'who drove it?' and wander away!

#34 Sergio Sultani

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:24

Hi friends;

1)Anyone have the details/photos of the "Pace British Race" (8ºround) in Oulton Park where Ayrton Senna won (and took the fastest lap in race) driving a Talbot Sunbeam Ti at 30/05/1982 ?

2)Anyone have the grid start of the race that Senna won with Mercedes 190 in Nurburgring (12/05/1984)?

Best wishes
Sergio Sultani.

#35 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:33

I was interested to read that Senna did a race in a Sunbeam Lotus, and then this last post says a Sunbeam Ti. Do we know which? Senna in a Sunbeam Lotus I would like to have sen....I had one myself........in the wet you needed windscreen wipers on the side windows.
Any one have more detail on that race?

#36 Marcus Simmons

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:26

They were Sunbeam Ti cars, usually used for celebrity races. At this Oulton Park meeting (May 30 1982) they were offered to those who'd qualified first or second for the other races on the programme.

Senna, or Ayrton da Silva as he was then, had qualified second for the FF2000 race. He won the Sunbeam race by 7.1sec from John Brindley, with Chuck Nicholson third, Mark Hales fourth, David Ellis fifth and Walter Warwick sixth. There were 9 cars in total in the race. Senna/da Silva also set a new lap record.

#37 Garagiste

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:34

Would love to see any pics of the Sunbeams in action - the "cooking" model was my first car.
Rare as Hen's teeth these days thanks to the way they rotted - expect there are probably more Lotus models left than any others.

#38 Peter Morley

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 13:03

Originally posted by BRG
I wonder about the provenance of that car.

Why would Mercedes have carefully preserved a car in which some precocious young driver (which is all that Senna was back then) had won a one-off 'celebrity' race? How prescient were they to realise that he would become so great? Or alternatively, it is just a replica. After all, if Hill, Surtees, Brabham or Hulme had won that race, the car would be one used by a former WC. But Senna was nobody much at that time - a F1 rookie driving for a minor team.


I wonder what happened to the others?

Did they scrap them?
Did they sell them as race cars - if so where did they go?
Did they take out the roll cages and sell them as ex-demonstration cars - if so has anyone got a 2.3-16 with bolt holes in it?

#39 Mallory Dan

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 16:25

Originally posted by Marcus Simmons
They were Sunbeam Ti cars, usually used for celebrity races. At this Oulton Park meeting (May 30 1982) they were offered to those who'd qualified first or second for the other races on the programme.

Senna, or Ayrton da Silva as he was then, had qualified second for the FF2000 race. He won the Sunbeam race by 7.1sec from John Brindley, with Chuck Nicholson third, Mark Hales fourth, David Ellis fifth and Walter Warwick sixth. There were 9 cars in total in the race. Senna/da Silva also set a new lap record.


Who beat da Silva to the FF2000 pole that day Marcus, or should we now say "P1"... Calvin Fish at a guess, or perhaps Frank the Fish or 'Fulmar' Taylor ??

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#40 Marcus Simmons

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 16:40

It was indeed Calvin Fish, who also went on to win the race - Senna's first defeat of the season in Britain (not sure about Europe). Senna complained of a down-on-power engine and went out with a puncture.

#41 Stephen W

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 17:32

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi
yes, this inaugural race of the newly-built saw senna winning in a mercedes benz 190 e 2,3 16 valve model (btw engine developped with help of cosworth) and lauda taking second place copying his 1984 style of races starting from the back of the grid and finishing on the podium. this race and the other sportscar race mentioned were the only two races IIRC senna ever raced non-single seater.


Sorry but you are wrong with your last statement. Senna drove in a celebrity saloon car race at Oulton Park (30/05/82) and he won and set fastest lap; they were all driving Talbot Sunbeams.

:wave:

#42 Stoatspeed

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 17:55

Steve
Post #15 etc ...... :blush:

#43 David Beard

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 17:57

Originally posted by Stephen W


Sorry but you are wrong with your last statement. Senna drove in a celebrity saloon car race at Oulton Park (30/05/82) and he won and set fastest lap; they were all driving Talbot Sunbeams.

:wave:


Steve....keep up ;)

#44 Stephen W

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 22:53

What can I say....

I was bored! :wave:

#45 bigears

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 19:20

Posted Image

You can see a Mercedes with this mysterious glow coming out from the back of the car.

Who drove that car? Was it Alan Jones or possibly Elio de Angelis?

The German press information posted by Pedro917 is a bit too confusing for me as I can't read German (although I am part German!)

#46 edelweiss

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 18:06

Originally posted by bigears
Posted Image

You can see a Mercedes with this mysterious glow coming out from the back of the car.

Who drove that car? Was it Alan Jones or possibly Elio de Angelis?

The German press information posted by Pedro917 is a bit too confusing for me as I can't read German (although I am part German!)

In any case not Jones, he is in third position.

#47 wildman

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 19:50

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Blackie made something of a speciality of remaining a ferociously quick and committed racer far into retirement. From memory he qualified fastest overall for an IROC race in the US and put numerous very much younger stars squarely in their place in that race.


One so rarely has the opportunity to correct such an esteemed source, I can't resist even if two years late. Black Jack never drove in the IROC, though Geoff B. did from '89 to '94, and even took a couple of wins (on ovals!) from the good ol' boys.

#48 Frank Verplanken

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 20:15

Indeed wildman, but Jack Brabham racing in an "all-star" invitational race in the US after his retirement, and beating young hot shoes, definitively rings a bell. Maybe a celibrities race at the Long Beach GP ?

#49 wildman

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 20:49

Originally posted by Frank Verplanken
Indeed wildman, but Jack Brabham racing in an "all-star" invitational race in the US after his retirement, and beating young hot shoes, definitively rings a bell. Maybe a celibrities race at the Long Beach GP ?


Possibly, but according to the historical stats for the Toyota Pro Celebrity Race, Brabham started twice (in '91 and '97) and finished fourth out of four pro drivers each time.

http://www.toyota.co...eb/history.html