29 replies to this topic

[jcbc3]

Sorry if posted or discussed before. I did try a search and came up empty handed.


On another bulletin board someone has posted that Kimi could have pushed his car over the line if his suspension had broken in the last corner.

No, say I. It has been illegal since the Giunti accident in 1971(?). Now these people come back and tell me they distinctly remember F1 drivers pushing their cars along. E.g. Mansell in 1984.

I have tried to look it up on the internet, but can't find a definitive answer. So I turn to you guys. In the midst of my mind I also seem to recall a story about one of the team managers claiming to have shouted to Mansell that it was a futile task but Mansell being Mansell he just continued only to collapse.

So what is the real story here. Please set me straight.

[ensign14]

ISTR the same thing happening over Prost the next season and he gave up before the finish.

Mansell did not push his car over the line, so the point became moot (I'm guessing his last lap would not have been counted). Huge benefit: Piercarlo Ghinzani scored a 5th rather than a 6th.

[Teapot]

Another controversial case...

During the 1991 Mexican GP Andrea de Cesaris pushed his car over the line for the fourth place after a throttle linkage failure and was disqualified ('cause pushing the car was - is? - actually forbidden). It was later reinstated after a succesfull protest from the team, since he didn't begin pushing until the race had ended: he was the last car in the leader's lap, so I assume that the race was considered finished when the third placed driver crossed the line.

[Vitesse2]

This was the situation as amended by the FIA after the Giunti accident:

http://forums.atlasf...496#post1314496

As I read it, I find it difficult to understand why de Cesaris was reinstated.

[Ray Bell]

I was under the impression that pushing the car over the line became redundant when the system of classifying finishers was introduced...

Until then, a car had to finish the race. Our rules here, and I'm sure these rules would exist elsewhere, determine that there is a maximum allowable lap time for the finishing lap. So pushing any great distance would likely exceed that time and disqualify a car anyway.

[HDonaldCapps]

Sorry if I attempt to bring us back to the Dallas GP of 1984, but there really doesn't seem to be a good answer to why Mansell was not disqualified for pushing his car. Any mention of his being penalized by his pushing the car seems to evade me as I have looked at the various reports and follow-ups to the event as they unfolded over the ensuing weeks. It is pretty much apparent that he got a free ride and was not disqualified as he should have been. Not only for his dumb act of endangering both himself and others on the track, but his overacting and grandstanding in doing what he did. I will spare you what some of those sitting near yelled at him, but it was not necessarily encouragement. It was something along the lines of "Die you person having a sexual relationship with his mother!" While some have recorded the reaction to his pushing car as a "noble deed," more than a few of us were hoping one of the cars would punt him into the fencing.... I was later very surprised when not a thing was said about his pushing the car being illegal and being disqualified. Pays to be lucky I guess.

[rosemeyer]

This post was totalty out of line whishing he would have been punted itto the crowd.It does not cover the actual rules of F1.This is only the personal comment of a person who is in actuality has not the knowledge of Piss-Ant It appears to be the fluff of a bitter man.

[Arjan de Roos]

Both the Mansell and Prost (Hockenheim 1986) car pushing were in the 'great' turbo era were fuel consumption was not only very high but also calculated to the last drop in the tank. However mistakes were made.
Prost was running for points in the German GP when he was out of petrol in the last corner of the motodrom, he hopped out and pushed his still rolling car. He gave up when he saw he wouldnt make it. A calculated act. That day it didnt pay of for the professor. Also Prost wasnt penalized.

Mansells pushing of his car was broadcasted around the world. From the poor US TV quality it was still clearly visible this was not a calculated act, more an actor's act. Mansell often pushed and pushed on so far that many realistic people wondered why.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Sorry if I attempt to bring us back to the Dallas GP of 1984, but there really doesn't seem to be a good answer to why Mansell was not disqualified for pushing his car.

Cos it made no difference to where he would have finished?

And there is a precedent - Hawthorn, 1958...

[RTH]

Didn't Innes Ireland push his Lotus for nearly a full lap around Monaco in the early 60's ?

[Ray Bell]

Half the lap he would have pretty much coasted...

Yes, I think that happened, but that was definitely before the rules changed about classifying as a finisher.

[andrea]

Andrea de Cesaris did the same in Spa 1987 and Mexico 1991.I've seen many pictures from Mexico 1991, but I didn't see any from Spa 1987, so can you send some here?

Forza Andrea,

[roger_valentine]

Several people seem to be missing the point here.

From Fines (in the Giunti thread):

To reiterate, Mansell was a "DNF" on the last lap, whether he stopped short of the finish line, or was disqualified after pushing over (I don't really recall, although I feel pretty sure he didn't complete the lap) is totally immaterial. Since only five cars finished that day, Mansell was, of course, classified sixth.

And from ensign6 in this thread:

Mansell did not push his car over the line, so the point became moot (I'm guessing his last lap would not have been counted).

There is nothing moot or immaterial about it. There is a world of difference between being disqualified (i.e. excluded from the results) and being allowed to keep a (as it hapens, points-scoring) position despite breaking the rules.

The two crucial questions seem to be

a) Is pushing illegal? (The Giunti thread seem to make it clear that it is)
and
b) When is 'the end of the race'? (And can a driver be disqualified for an infringement committed after the end?)


When Mansell started pushing:
The winner had crossed the line (therefore race over?)

Other finishers had not yet crossed the line (therefore race not over?)
Mansell had retired (therefore his race over?)

As there seems to have been little or no mention of disqualification at the time (in either the Mansell or Prost incidents), the one worth investigating is the de Cesaris one. Disqualified, then re-instated. Apparently Jordan managed to argue (successfully) that the race was over when de Cesaris started pushing.

[ensign14]

What I meant was that there was no advantage gained by his pushing. So as he did not get an unfair advantage there was no need to DQ him.

Corrado Fabi was 7th in a Brabham (incidentally having out-qualified Piquet - now CF was a lost talent, IMO better than his brother), if there had been a rule infraction would Bernie have protested?

[roger_valentine]

Having just read all the (pretty harrowing) Giunti thread, I think it is clear that the 'no pushing' rule is meant for safety reasons, and is nothing to do with whether or not a driver might gain an advantage (which is highly improbable anyway). As Don pointed out with his inimitably subtlety, what Mansell did was dangerous, which is why it warranted disqualification.

[Arjan de Roos]

Prost did push his car at Hockenheim on the right side of the road, so out of the fast lane. This is of course logical, but also relatively safe and therefor no disq (?).

[Arjan de Roos]

Prost did push his car at Hockenheim on the right side of the road, so out of the fast lane. This is of course logical, but also relatively safe and therefor no disq (?).

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by rosemeyer
This post was totalty out of line whishing he would have been punted itto the crowd.It does not cover the actual rules of F1.This is only the personal comment of a person who is in actuality has not the knowledge of Piss-Ant It appears to be the fluff of a bitter man.

I only accurately recorded what those around me at the race did. They were not in a good disposition towards Ol' Niggle in the first place since he was -- in their view, as well as mine and Keke's -- deliberately blocking and holding up Rosberg at several points. This was not a popular move with perhaps any Texan Finns observing such tactics -- who apparently made up the vast majority of those sitting in the area I was in at the end of the race. To say that they did not care for Mansell would be a vast understatement -- even I was a bit amazed at how much they really seemed to despise him. I never cared much for him even then, but this was pure hate. I was a bit put off by it.

When he stopped at the end just before the finishing area, they cheered. I didn't, but they certainly did and very loud and profanely. When Mansell got out and started to push, by the way he looked about and then went to the task, it seemed that it was pure theatre. While others around us cheered at first at his doing so, soon most realized just how dangerous and stupid it was. The Texan Finns was quite pointed in their comments and made no bones how they felt. I was surprised that no one stopped him. It was a patently dangerous thing to do and he clearly endangered himself and others in doing so. That nothing was ever done is one of the true mysteries of the season.

As for your personal comments about me, check your PM -- which would have been the proper way to handle this.

[Keir]

Never really liked Mansell myself, but ..... the cat callers haven't a clue about what racing is all about and really should have been on line waiting for the mechanical bull instead !!

That Dallas track was coming apart foot by foot during the race and blocking was mearly a byproduct of having nowhere safe to overtake.

This action by Mansell is in no way, shape or form similar to Beltoise and it's been done many times before without the driver being DQ'ed.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As I was in Dallas for this race, I can certainly vouch for Don's comments regarding the fan attitude towards Mansell on that sweltering day. Whether you agree or disagree with the feelings of the fans, the attitude of the fans was very hostile towards Nigel during the race.

Don and I can respectfully disagree about the blocking tactics discussed regarding Nigel and Keke, as I am of the opinion that Keke could have moved passed Mansell if he had dared to move offline onto the huge buildup of marbles resulting from the disintegrating track, but I respect all opinions to the contrary.

I was never a big Mansell fan, although I generally admired his driving on most occasions during his career. His pushing the Lotus in Dallas was not one of his shining moments IMHO.

[Keir]

You use the word "fans" to describe individuals who in their character are not anything of the sort.

Like him or hate him, Mansell did what any racer, any "real" racer, would have done and any "real" fan of motor racing can see that !!

It was John Dalton who wouldn't let Innes Ireland "give up the ghost" at Monaco as he pushed his car around the circuit! That's what "fans" do !!

[fines]

Originally posted by roger_valentine
There is nothing moot or immaterial about it. There is a world of difference between being disqualified (i.e. excluded from the results) and being allowed to keep a (as it hapens, points-scoring) position despite breaking the rules.

The difference is in the disqualification itself: if it's because of an infringement of the technicalregulations, the car and driver will be excluded from the session, i.e. the race in this case, and they will be treated like having retired on lap 1. If it's because of an infringement of the sporting regulations, they will be treated like having retired on the lap the infringement has happened. "Pushing" is a violation of the sporting rules, thus Mansell would have "finished" sixth, disqualified on the last lap. See also Scott Goodyear in the 1995 Indy 500, passing the pace car (a violation of the sporting rules), thus USAC "stopped scoring" him for the last 12 laps or so, i.e. disqualified him on lap 189. He still "finished" 15th, or somesuch.

So much for the theory. I recall that the de Cesaris incident was treated differently, and I thought that absolutely stupid: Talk was of "excluding" him from the results! Why? He completed 69 (?) laps without any hitch, and in a time fast enough to be classified 4th.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Keir
You use the word "fans" to describe individuals who in their character are not anything of the sort.

Like him or hate him, Mansell did what any racer, any "real" racer, would have done and any "real" fan of motor racing can see that !!

It was John Dalton who wouldn't let Innes Ireland "give up the ghost" at Monaco as he pushed his car around the circuit! That's what "fans" do !!

The same Dalton?

I mean the Amon AF101/Tony Shelley John Dalton?

[roger_valentine]

Originally posted by fines
The difference is in the disqualification itself: if it's because of an infringement of the technical regulations, the car and driver will be excluded from the session, i.e. the race in this case, and they will be treated like having retired on lap 1. If it's because of an infringement of the sporting regulations, they will be treated like having retired on the lap the infringement has happened.

Thank you for this explanation. I was not aware of there being these 2 different types of disqualification, although it often seems that, in recent times (i.e. post 1970s at least - but possibly always), penalties for infringements of any kind are issued arbitrarily and without reference to precedent or even common sense.

[Nikos Spagnol]

IIRC, there is a rule stating that the race ends at 2 x (fastest lap) time after the winner crosses the line.

So, if Mansell (and de Cesaris) crossed the line some 3 minutes after the leader, it wouldn't count, because the race is over anyway.

And, as Fines explained, DSQ for "sporting" reasons do not "null" the result of the race, but rather stops counting the times from the black flag onwards.

Hope that's clear enough.

[Keir]

Vicuna,

The very same John Dalton !!

In his book, "All Arms and Elbows", Innes gives full credit to Dalton.

Fines,

Nice job on the rules and how they come into effect.

It still doesn't explain how some drunk, redneck, mouthbreathing morons, whose sole interest was seeing a driver get hurt, got in to see the race ???

[fines]

Oh, that's easy, Keir! They simply exchanged dough for tickets...

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Keir
It still doesn't explain how some drunk, redneck, mouthbreathing morons, whose sole interest was seeing a driver get hurt, got in to see the race ???

Other than reflecting a personal mindset and a big wallop of prejudice, this was not the reality. The men and women who were in the stands were very passionate race fans who were scarcely any of the things you seem to imply.

They were, however, very much Rosberg fans and in the literal "heat" of the moment did get a bit carried away. What should be mentioned is that almost everyone did aplogize for their comments and for being, as one put it, "a bit over the top."

Let me also point out that never was there any mention of these folks being "drunk, redneck, mouthbreathing morons, whose sole interest was seeing a driver get hurt" -- only that they were not very happy with Mansell. Very unhappy with Mansell. While I, too, was not thrilled with Mansell, it was not anywhere to the same degree.

Not to excuse such behavior, but to point out that it was remarkable that such outbursts were relatively rare considering both the poor condition of the venue and generally poor quality of the event. That those in the stands did not riot and demand refunds proves that those in the stands were anything but what you imply.

[Keir]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck !!

There never has and never will be any excuse for bad behavior !!

[crozier74]

I noticed this happen to a racer at a kart race a few years ago. His engine died coming out of the last corner on the last lap, and pushed his kart over the line. However, the Clerk of the Course came along and told him that:

"the vehicle must complete the race under its own power".

Now I'm not sure how this applies to the higher echelons of motorsport. Forgive my slightly cynical self, but I can imagine if a driver pushed his car across the line, the officials would be more than a little wary of the public outcry at disqualifying a driver after displaying such "die-hard" and "heroic" behaviour.

I for one spent the slowing-down lap of last Sunday's race trying desperately to restart my kart (with a push start, which is very tiring, especially when it's got 20kg of lead on it to bring it up to weight, after you've dragged it out the soggy bark, and already had one failed attempt to restart), just to prove to myself I could do it for once and get the points for a finish. Alas, didnae happen, but heck, I gave it my best shot anyway, is all that matters to me.

Anyhoo, back on topic. I'm not too sure where this supposed rule comes from, but the result that day a few years ago in the first example, was that said driver was forced to pull his kart back a few metres before the line and spend a good 3 minutes desperately trying to get it to restart (this being the lazy-arse class with a push-button starter), with the chequered flag poised right in front of his nose, in front of all the spectators, before eventually failing and having to drag it off back to the pits. One of the funniest things I've seen in my time in motorsport