67 replies to this topic

[island]

I have read about that car in the marque reference
of http://www.race-cars.com. Does "stillborn" mean that the
M25 never took part in a F5000 race ?
Who knows more ?

[Ray Bell]

Probably so. If a car had been finished, it's quite likely that Allan Hamilton would have bought that instead of the M26 he had to convert for Alf Costanzo to win the 1981 (?) Australian title.

[Dave Ware]

At the time, I had read that George Follmer was going to purchase the car to race in the U.S. That never occured. I also have never heard of this McLaren M25 F5000 turning a wheel in competition, or even testing.

"who knows more" is a good question.

Dave

[fines]

The M25 was acquired by Spanish bank manager and semi-professional racer Emilio de Villota in 1978. He had previously raced the one-off Lyncar F1 in the BRSCC Group 8 Championship in 1977 which became the British F1 Championship the next year.

Fitted with a Cosworth DFV the M25 took on a new lease of life as an F1 car, and a quite successful at that. Though Villota did not win a race he finished third in the championship, with two seconds and one third.

He even attempted to qualify the car for the Spanish GP that year, but failed by a considerable margin after spinning and being hit by none other than McLaren works driver James Hunt. Apparently the car was damaged quite badly because it did not reappear until late in the season, forcing Villota to revert to his well used M23 backup.

For 1979 Emilio purchased a Lotus 78 and finished third again, finally winning the championship in an FW07 Williams in 1980.

[MOTORSPORT RESORT]

Michael Do you know what happened to the car?

[fines]

I'm afraid not!

According to Paul Sheldon it was last raced at Thruxton, Sep 10, 1978 and then used in practice for the Snetterton season's final a fortnight later. Could be that Villota crashed again and wrote the car off. I have no English magazines of that time, I believe these could be helpful. Anyone out there?

[tombe]

According to Doug Nye, the McLaren M25 was completed early in 1975 and tested by Howden Ganley,but never raced. Quote:"The tub lay unloved for long months on the roof of a Colnbrook outhouse."

Then, according to AUTOSPORT magazine's report on the F5000 race at Brands Hatch, August 30, 1976, Bob Evans arrived with a "brand new, three year old 5.0 McLaren M25",the car now owned by David Hepworth. With an engine that was even older (5 years), Evans finished a promising second.
At the next race at Thruxton the team had problems with the car's rising-rate front suspension which,according to Evans, made it "the twitchiest car I've driven in seven years of racing". In the race he retired with a blown engine and the car was seen no more that season.

As mentioned in another post above,the car was then aquired by de Villotas team, but he used it as early as the last race of the 1977 Brithsh Gr.8 season at Brands Hatch,Oct.16.
Again according to AUTOSPORT, the team converted the car to M23 spec alongside the M23/6 the team already had. This may be the cause of the confusion over which car de Villota tried to qualify at the Spanish GP in 78, because AUTOSPORT, Doug Nye,Mike Lang and Steve Small all refer to that car as a M23. But I understand from reading other threads at this forum that Sheldon should be a more reliable source, or....


Tom
[p][Edited by tombe on 09-30-2000]

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by tombe
This may be the cause of the confusion over which car de Villota tried to qualify at the Spanish GP in 78

He tried both. The car damaged in the accident with Hunt on Friday, when Emilio spun at the exit of the corner leading to the main straight and Hunt crashed into him, was, as Michael rightfully deducted, the M25.

On Saturday Emilio reverted to M23-6 but was unable to qualify.

As for the suggestion made by Tom about the team converting the M25 to M23 spec (with an M26 air intake) the answer is yes. Only very minor decoration differences allowed at the time to differentiate the two of them, and I am sure, looking at the car, that very few M25´s parts were left visible on that M25-born M23.

Felix Muelas

[fines]

[Ignore this post if you want, it's just me celebrating my 1000th post on the same thread I did my first one! It's been an exceptionally pleasurable half year since, thanx to everyone! Now I wonder what will happen, fanfare and everything? ]

[Felix Muelas]

Michael

Congratulations !
You have achieved a real milestone (at least for me) and now I understand why I used to wake up at nights seeing my mirrors full of "fines"

Un abrazo, and overall, a huge thanks for both questions and answers...


Felix

[Ray Bell]

Consider it ignored...

[Marcor]

Why do you choose that topic ?

Now I know I have posted more than one reply by day (on average, you can see my profil !)

[David McKinney]

I believe you might find the M25/23 coming up for auction in the UK later this year

[Gary C]

wasn't it an M25/23 up for sale from the John Foulston collection a couple of years ago?

[Allen Brown]

Sorry folks, I've been away for a couple of days and only just spotted this thread.

The full race history of the M25 is here. It had 11 starts in total, two as a F5000 and nine as a F1. It even has a DNQ at a proper GP.

The ownership history is as follows: built in 1973, the car was tested in November and then sold to Carlos Avallone in February 1974; impounded and sat out 1974 under lock and key; sold at auction early 1975 to David Hepworth only for Avallone to try to get it back; finally resolved 1976 and run in F5000 by Hepworth; sold in 1977 Guiseppe Risi’s Iberia team for Emilio de Villota and rebuilt it to M23 specification as a back-up to their ex-works M23/6; raced late 1977 and in 1978 by de Villota; then became a show car; sold by Risi via Bobby Howlings to David McLaughlin in August 1982; sold to John Foulston April 1985 and I think he ran it a few times.

I last saw it at a Brooks auction about January 1998 but it didn't sell.

Allen

[Twin Window]

I've read many posts regarding this unique chassis, but I don't think anyone has posted a pic of it in it's original form. As all the threads are now archived, I thought I'd put it here in the hope that some folk are interested in seeing it...



I found this shot in Autosprint showing Bob Evans at Brands in a ShellSPORT Group 8 race in 1976, which I think was the car's race debut. It was turned out in McLaren orange, and somewhere I have a colour shot of it!

[Reyna]

I think that this car was engined with a DFV and sold latter to Emilio de Villota.
In fact was his second McLaren chassis (the M23/6 was the first).

[Twin Window]

For this race at least, I believe it had an F5000 Alan Smith Chev V8, Rafa...

[Reyna]

Yes, in fact was an one-off and the last McLaren F5000.

I'm not sure, but i think that this chassis was finished in 1.973/74 ????

[Vicuna]

Last McLaren to race in orange?

Pre historic racing of course..

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Vicuna
Last McLaren to race in orange?

Pre historic racing of course..

The same thought had occured to me too!

[Frank de Jong]

I do have a shot of the car (the same venue, I'm sure - #1, same helmet, same decals) in color; it is in Sport-Auto katalog 1/77.
The car is McLaren orange, the cylinder heads clearly indicate a chevy.

[Reyna]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I do have a shot of the car (the same venue, I'm sure - #1, same helmet, same decals) in color; it is in Sport-Auto katalog 1/77.

German edition ??

[Twin Window]

Thanks, Frank - you reminded me where I'd seen it!


(Source: Sport Auto/Renn Und Sportwagen Katalog 1977)

[Twin Window]

The two threads concerning this unique F5000 chassis are now merged.

[Duncan Fox]

Fines, I think this is the Mclaren that Abba Kogan runs in the Force Series, if not this one then its tucked away somewhere, I know he bought it at auction some time back. The F 5000 Chevy conversion parts are still around in the U.K.Hopefully they will be reunited sometime .It nearly happened last time it was sold. David,do you know when and where the auction will be? Its a shame it never got raced in period as a 5000. If it had been even half as succesful as Aussie John McCormacks M23 Repco Leyland ,it would have been worth it!

[Ray Bell]

Different animal to McCormack's car altogether...

McCormack's basic thinking was to get a tyre advantage. And when Hasemi did so well at the '76 Japan GP on Dunlops, the whole plan germinated.

The Leyland engine was a slightly taller cylinder block variant of the Rover 3500 alloy unit, so was a lot lighter than a Chevy. With less torque than the Chev, McCormack reckoned the FG gearbox would handle it okay, and so it proved.

What was never proved was how good the car might have been with the IMC (Irving/McCormack/Comalco) heads they developed. F5000 in Australia by then permitted aftermarket heads, and these gave much better porting.

The car was brilliant in fast corners, I've never seen anything as quick in the South Curve at the end of Phillip Island's main straight...

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Duncan Fox

Its a shame it never got raced in period as a 5000.

It did, albeit only twice. The history of the chassis can be found here on Allen Brown's brilliant OldRacingCars.com website. And perhaps you missed the photos posted earlier?

[MCS]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Sorry folks, I've been away for a couple of days and only just spotted this thread.

The full race history of the M25 is here. It had 11 starts in total, two as a F5000 and nine as a F1. It even has a DNQ at a proper GP.

The ownership history is as follows: built in 1973, the car was tested in November and then sold to Carlos Avallone in February 1974; impounded and sat out 1974 under lock and key; sold at auction early 1975 to David Hepworth only for Avallone to try to get it back; finally resolved 1976 and run in F5000 by Hepworth; sold in 1977 Guiseppe Risi’s Iberia team for Emilio de Villota and rebuilt it to M23 specification as a back-up to their ex-works M23/6; raced late 1977 and in 1978 by de Villota; then became a show car; sold by Risi via Bobby Howlings to David McLaughlin in August 1982; sold to John Foulston April 1985 and I think he ran it a few times.

I last saw it at a Brooks auction about January 1998 but it didn't sell.

Allen

...the car was tested in November and then sold to Carlos Avallone in February 1974; impounded and sat out 1974 under lock and key...

My understanding was that the car was built at Avallone's request and he subsequenly paid a deposit for it...but nothing else...

MCS

[David Force]

The McLaren which Abba Kogan races is in fact a Formula 1 car M23 chassis 4. He also owns the M25 which was offered in a couple of Brookes auctions with the erroneous DCN description that it had never raced, it had indeed although this error has crept into a couple of McLaren books. This M25 was owned by David McLaughlin and then raced by John Foulston in DFV trim, John renumbered it M23/14 at that time so Historians beware ! The car is now in the process of being restored in its original form to race in F5000 events.

A small point but wasnt the last McLaren to race in orange one of the McLaren F1 road car racers ?

[Duncan Fox]

David ,thankyou for that update , I'm very pleased to hear the car and parts have been reunited. The M23 series is well represented in historics, so there is room for the real M25. Hopefully Abba will ship it south and come play with the colonials! Do you know who is preparing the car?

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by MCS


...the car was tested in November and then sold to Carlos Avallone in February 1974; impounded and sat out 1974 under lock and key...

My understanding was that the car was built at Avallone's request and he subsequenly paid a deposit for it...but nothing else...

MCS

This appeared in Autosport April 3, 1975


McLaren's F5000 for sale

Possibly still the most competitive F5000 car never to race was the McLaren M25, the F5000 version of Gordon Coppuck's highly successful M23 Grand Prix design.

Only one chassis was ever built and that was tested back in 1973 by John Nicholson and Denny Hulme. It proved highly competitive in testing and, for a curious reason, was bought by Brazilian Carlos Avallone.

However, the car was immediately impounded following legal action undertaken by Yorkshire hillclimb driver David Hepworth who had lost a lot of money, along with several other people, when the proposed Brazilian sports car series, organised by Avallone, fell foul at the beginning of 1973.

Hepworth telephoned us last week to say that although this was only just the beginning, the M25 was now free of the law and, as it has now passed into his hands legally, it's his to sell.

Hepworth has decided to stay away from racing for a year but would dearly love to sell the car to "an ace" as he so rightly believes it would still be a winner. "It would mop up on both sides of the Atlantic" he said.

McLaren Cars have constantly received inquiries about the M25 but it's only now that genuine terms can be agreed upon. However, Hepworth has stipulated to McLaren Cars that they will be consulted as to whom the car shall be sold to. Mike Hailwood perhaps?

[Macca]

Now, am I posting these photos in the right thread or not?








Seen on Sunday at Silverstone.


Paul M

[Frank de Jong]

Well, sort of... but my untrained eye sees a 76/77 M23 with an F5000 engine - it looks quite different from the M25 (cockpit, nose)...

[WHITE]

Originally posted by MCS


[I][B]My understanding was that the car was built at Avallone's request

This is what I once read too. Antonio Carlos Avallone wanted to come to europe and try the F5000 as a first step towards F1. However, the project never materialized and the car was sold out. It was not seen again until 1976, when it was driven a couple of races by Bob Evans.
As far as I know, the M25 was designed by John Barnard.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by WHITE



As far as I know, the M25 was designed by John Barnard.

Gordon Coppuck surely

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong

...it looks quite different from the M25 (cockpit, nose)...

Well, I can't see a difference with the cockpit or the nose (bar the absense of a couple of NACA ducts) - but the rear wing support pillar is definitely a different (perhaps later?) spec.

White; take a read of the whole thread, as there's a fair bit on the chassis within.

And it must have been a Coppuck design, as Vic says...

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Well, I can't see a difference with the ...........the nose (bar the absense of a couple of NACA ducts)

I've been puzzling over this as my initial impression was, like Frank, that this was the later version of the M23 nose but then went back and tried to say why I thought this. Obviously it is not the first generation, but it does look later than, say the later 1974 version of the M23, wider, blunter and larger front wings perhaps. How about that for unclear analysis?

And I'm assuming that the M25 had a nose similar to the M23 at the time it was built????

Try this

Early 1974 M23 - winkle picker

perso.wanadoo.fr/.../ 74Fittipaldiv.jpg

Late 1974 M23

http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/817
www.f1datenbank.at/ images/wmcar74.JPG

1977 version

http://www.atspeedim...mclaren_m23.jpg

Anyone out there able to be more precise about what the M25 nose looked like?

[WHITE]

Originally posted by Twin Window


And it must have been a Coppuck design, as Vic says... [/B]

As usual, you must be right. However, I remember that, in 1984 the magazine Grand Prrix International, published an interesting article about McLaren and its revival. According to the article, McLaren's revival should be attributed to Ron Dennis and John Barnard.
At the article there was a detailed recap of Barnard's career in which, among ather things, it was said that the M23 had mostly been designed by Barnard since, in 1973 Coppuck was too busy in the States to look after the formula 1 car. As Coppuck was the chief engineer, all projects used to bear his name.
The M23, was basically a M16 fitted with the suspensions of the M19 and adapted to the F1 specs. Barnard, also had assisted Coppuck in the project of the M16 so he was already familiar with it.
More or less the same can be can be said about the M24 which was the last McLaren model used at the USAC. This car derived from the M23 and it was mostly designed by John Baldwin, but also bearing Coppuck's name.
Finally, the M25 was another car based on the M23 and once again came out from Barnard's pen before he left the team. It is curious that, with Barnard no longer at McLaren, none of later Coppuck's models ( M26, M27-unconcluded-, M28 and M29 ) performed better than the M23 had done. In fact, it was not until Barnard's return than the team got back to the top. A coincidence ?

[dolomite]

The front rollover hoop visible through the windscreen in front of the steering wheel was a requirement introduced by the 1976 F1 regulations. It was not fitted to the 1973/74/75 M23s or to the original M25.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by WHITE

As usual, you must be right. However, I remember that, in 1984 the magazine Grand Prrix International, published an interesting article about McLaren and its revival. According to the article, McLaren's revival should be attributed to Ron Dennis and John Barnard.

At the article there was a detailed recap of Barnard's career in which, among ather things, it was said that the M23 had mostly been designed by Barnard since, in 1973 Coppuck was too busy in the States to look after the formula 1 car. As Coppuck was the chief engineer, all projects used to bear his name.

First of all, my friend, there is nothing whatsover to suggest that "as usual, I must be right"! Far from it, as I know only too well...

Your comments are interesting, not least because - when the article you mention was published in Grand Prix International - I was a full-time employee working on the magazine! How embarrassing is that...?!

[Mac Lark]

The M25 would date to 1973 or 74 I would say.

At that stage, wasn't Barnard pushing a pencil across a board at Lola?

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
The M25 would date to 1973 or 74 I would say.

At that stage, wasn't Barnard pushing a pencil across a board at Lola?

I think Barnard moved across to McLaren in 1972, and knew he played a role in the design of the M23 and M25 but cannot recall before our new friend White pegged him as the true father of the M23 ever having seen that car attributed to anyone but Coppuck......

I have seen the M25 being attributed to Barnard but thought that was more because he was the inky fingered engineer/draughtsman for the alterations necessary to make a F5000 out of the F1 M23 not that he was responsible for the M23 concept

And as for Dennis and Barnard being lauded for the revival of McLaren in 1984, well I'd have assumed that referred to the MP4 series of cars.

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Well, I can't see a difference with the cockpit or the nose (bar the absense of a couple of NACA ducts) - but the rear wing support pillar is definitely a different (perhaps later?) spec.

And it must have been a Coppuck design, as Vic says...

On the M25 pic, the front wings seem angled backwards - that's what I meant.

[Ted Walker]

Nice restoration,I thought someone would have commented on the out of period "mickey mouse" exhaust system.

[Bonde]

I agree with the sentiment that the restoration appears to be a 'late' chassis:

- Front roll-hoop: Didn't become mandatory in F1 until April 1, 1976. Other formulae followed later. However, the front roll-hoop may well be a later addition to an earlier tub, as retrofit installation of front roll hoops to pre-1976 chassis is not uncommon. The tub could still be original and all newer aerodynamic appendages added later. The aft bulkhead/behind-the-seat tank portion of the tub at the engine certainly differs from M23-Cosworth practise - so if it isn't the original M25 tub it is certainly a much-modified M23 tub in this area.

- 'Conventional' upper front rocker arm suspension didn't become standard fit on the M23 until late season 1975, IIRC. I would suspect the Evans M25 has the original tubular rocker-with-inboard bell crank progressive rate arrangement if the tub was built late 74, early 75 (re. DCN). Again, the front suspension could have been updated during the active life of the M25.

- Rear wing pylon appears to be the post-April 1 1976 configuration, where rear wing cantilevering was reduced. On the Evans M25 picture, the wing pylon appears to be the original M23 1973 angled 'far-aft' configuration.

- The rear wing in the restored car appears to be the slightly delta-shaped, deeply cambered "banana" section, deep chord typical of 1976 M23 and later - not the constant chord, relatively thin wing shown in the shot of Evans.

- The nose cone appears shorter and blunter - aka 1976 and beyond - than on the Evans 1973 M23 configuration [the shorter, broader nose IMHO ruined the original slim lines of the M23, which IMHO never looked better than with the rarely-used "winkle-picker" nose.]

- The front wings on the restored car are much deeper in chord, which is constant, and section than the tapered, narrow chord wings on the Evans car, again reflecting late-style M23 practise.

- The perspex portion of the cockpit surround is much deeper on the restored car, which also reflects late-style M23, but I can't really tell whether this portion is taller or whether the glass fibre portion is lower. Windscreens were (and are) often made to suit individual driver requirements.

I don't know if the restored car has an airbox - the one on the Evans car certainly wasn't pretty, though. Then again, few in-period F5000 airboxes were pretty - most of them were pretty monsterous to accommodate all those carbs and long stacks. Yet in spite of the odd aesthetics of most F5000 cars they were (and are!) to me perversely attractive in their clumsy but muscular ungainlyness - ooomph!

[Allen Brown]

Important to remember that Villota had the M25 extensively rebuilt to M23 spec to act as a spare to M23/6.

Allen

[Frank de Jong]

Good point.

[Hepster]

The Mclaren M25 was aquired by my father David Hepworth as a result of a judicial situation which is another story. The car was not ran in Mclaren Orrange but the Hepworth Racing Organisation colour which is Alfa Romeo Yellow Ochre. I do have a number of pictures (I will post when I learn how to do.), of the car at testing with Bob Evans driving. I also have a photo somewhere of it sitting in the Mclaren factory.

[rdmotorsport]

Dear Mr.Hepworth Jnr. which could be either A or S , Mclaren orange, ocre ???, and theres me thinking it was Bailiff Bridge rust!

Do not you think you are still too young and youthful to be on this old man forum?

Rodders