67 replies to this topic

[aaron]

Abba Kogan had this car until recently. Someone mentions John MacCormack's name running a Mclaren converted to F5000 specs, quite right and very qucik. You may not know that Mac actually organised to buy the M25 in its original form. He flew to England to pay for and collect it from behind a small industrial shed which was closed when he got there. He turned uo again the next day to find the car gone and someone else had paid for it. He was pretty disappointed but as we know he built the M23 F5000 car instead.
The car looks very much like an M16 Indy car as you would expect being from that period. Aaron

[fines]

Only 1718 more and I can do my 10,000th post on this thread!

[deancrew]

In reading thru the McLaren M 25 F5000 stories I was intrigued by its history. . . .Or should we refer to it as a Lack of Significant history. In re-reading the Peter Revson Autobiography "Speed with Style" it refers to the many negotiations during 1973 between Revson and Teddy Mayer for Revson in '74 at McLaren. One such scenario had Revson describing a 1974 Racing program with McLaren with him focusing on Indy Racing and F5000 in the States. Interesting that perhaps the collapse of GULF sponsorship after '73 in the states could have scuttled the 5000 program. McLaren had no USAC sponsor that year, and only ran 1 car. And Revson clearly identifies that McLaren's Funding during that era wasn't at a level deemed competitive with many other teams. So the Texaco/ Marlboro sponsorship which Emmerson brought was huge for them. Sad to think that a great "Potential" racing history never happened right at the time F5000 took off from CAN AM. Who knows, McLaren could have had another ledgendary American Road Racer legacy on their hands, and Lola may never have had the impact that they eventually did!

[Nigel Beresford]

As usual, you must be right. However, I remember that, in 1984 the magazine Grand Prrix International, published an interesting article about McLaren and its revival. According to the article, McLaren's revival should be attributed to Ron Dennis and John Barnard.
At the article there was a detailed recap of Barnard's career in which, among ather things, it was said that the M23 had mostly been designed by Barnard since, in 1973 Coppuck was too busy in the States to look after the formula 1 car. As Coppuck was the chief engineer, all projects used to bear his name.
The M23, was basically a M16 fitted with the suspensions of the M19 and adapted to the F1 specs. Barnard, also had assisted Coppuck in the project of the M16 so he was already familiar with it.
More or less the same can be can be said about the M24 which was the last McLaren model used at the USAC. This car derived from the M23 and it was mostly designed by John Baldwin, but also bearing Coppuck's name.
Finally, the M25 was another car based on the M23 and once again came out from Barnard's pen before he left the team. It is curious that, with Barnard no longer at McLaren, none of later Coppuck's models ( M26, M27-unconcluded-, M28 and M29 ) performed better than the M23 had done. In fact, it was not until Barnard's return than the team got back to the top. A coincidence ?

Gordon Coppuck designed the M23. I saw it with my own eyes.

He also designed the M16. The M23 was in no way a development of the M16, but it bears a relation in terms of being a wedge configuration with side mounted radiators. Constructionally there were significant differences, and the front suspension concepts (conventional top rocker on the M16 vs rising rate linkage on the M23) had nothing in common. JB was responsible for the later M16 developments, where he tidied up a lot of areas which had become unttidy as the car had developed through the years. This reminds me of the way in which Jean Claude Migeot's high nose concept introduced on the Tyrrell 019 is sometimes attributed to Mike Gascoyne, even though Gazza didn't join Tyrrell until way after the 019 was designed and built.

I have unbounded admiration and respect for John Barnard, (IMHO a fabulously gifted engineer) but little time for revisionist history.

[MCS]

In re-reading the Peter Revson Autobiography "Speed with Style" it refers to the many negotiations during 1973 between Revson and Teddy Mayer for Revson in '74 at McLaren. One such scenario had Revson describing a 1974 Racing program with McLaren with him focusing on Indy Racing and F5000 in the States.

I haven't read the book in question, but to suggest that Revson was being lined up to do F5000 and Indy in the States following his performances with McLaren in Formula One during 1973 are ridiculous, surely.

[deancrew]

I agree that the thought of Mclaren having Revson doing F5000 and Indy after a great year in '73 sounds absolutely ridiculous, but yet on page 189 of his book "Speed with Style" Revson states " I told Larry Truesdale that with Teddy offering me Formula 5000 and USAC Racing all but telling me I was off the Formula 1 Team, he was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He would have Emerson and Marlboro Texaco which he needed , and he would have me in the United States where I would be helpful to him with his search for sponsors there. Also on pg 171 it states the program halted because of lack of funds. The rest of the book describes all of the negotiations between Revson & Mayer, all very interesting. And of course Revson had no intentions of leaving F1. Alas one wonders what could have transpired had he stayed at McLaren in '74.

[MCS]

I agree that the thought of Mclaren having Revson doing F5000 and Indy after a great year in '73 sounds absolutely ridiculous, but yet on page 189 of his book "Speed with Style" Revson states " I told Larry Truesdale that with Teddy offering me Formula 5000 and USAC Racing all but telling me I was off the Formula 1 Team, he was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He would have Emerson and Marlboro Texaco which he needed , and he would have me in the United States where I would be helpful to him with his search for sponsors there. Also on pg 171 it states the program halted because of lack of funds. The rest of the book describes all of the negotiations between Revson & Mayer, all very interesting. And of course Revson had no intentions of leaving F1. Alas one wonders what could have transpired had he stayed at McLaren in '74.

Interesting. I wonder if the Yardley McLaren drive for 1974 was ever mentioned? Mike Hailwood got the drive of course.

[Ted Walker]

I understand that the M25 is being re-converted back to an F1 car.

[Giraffe]

I understand that the M25 is being re-converted back to an F1 car.

That was reported in one of the weekly rags, Ted. I can see why they are doing it, but as there was only ever one M25, personally, I find it a little sad...........

[Giraffe]

Interesting. I wonder if the Yardley McLaren drive for 1974 was ever mentioned? Mike Hailwood got the drive of course.

Just an excuse to post this from my badge collection.........

[Auroraf1]

I haven't read the book in question, but to suggest that Revson was being lined up to do F5000 and Indy in the States following his performances with McLaren in Formula One during 1973 are ridiculous, surely.

I own this book, but only read half of it. It has to be the worst written biography ever.

[Graham Clayton]

I found a reference to the M25 being entered for a meeting at Brands Hatch in 1975, under Rikki Pierce's name, by a team called Renoir. Keke Rosberg was listed as the driver. The M25 was a DNA. Does anyone know anything more about Rikki Pierce, or Renoir?

[TIPO61]

More than likely you'll be 'fined' by this forum. Congrats...

[TIPO61]

and another thing...wasn't there a guy named Steve Nichols in this mix.

[Michael Ferner]

More than likely you'll be 'fined' by this forum. Congrats...

So true...........


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フィネス

[The Artist formerly known as fines]

[Diecastkiwis]

I've read many posts regarding this unique chassis, but I don't think anyone has posted a pic of it in it's original form. As all the threads are now archived, I thought I'd put it here in the hope that some folk are interested in seeing it...



I found this shot in Autosprint showing Bob Evans at Brands in a ShellSPORT Group 8 race in 1976, which I think was the car's race debut. It was turned out in McLaren orange, and somewhere I have a colour shot of it!

so hard to find an early  pic of it

[funformula]

Not so hard to find

http://www.tuttomclaren.it/m25.asp

[Lee Nicolle]

so hard to find an early  pic of it

That is a BIG airbox!