104 replies to this topic

[swaction]

When it comes to rain, you either can or you can't... Who would you say could cut it in the rain and who should have stayed in the pits?


Yes:
Senna
Boutsen
Schumacher
Brundle
Barrichello
Lauda

No:
Hill (Damon)
Prost


I'm a bit too boozed to think some others, maybe some other fans with the history smarts can name a few names...

[Stephen W]

Going back a bit:

Pedro Rodriguez
Stirling Moss
Jack Brabham
Jochen Rindt
Keke Rosberg
Tom Pryce
David Purley
Brian Redman

Could all be added to the list you have.

[ian senior]

Lauda as a yes? Hmm, he wasn't very happy at Japan in 1976 (although he had good reasons why, and I don't blame him).

Pedro Rodriguez as a definite "yes". And lower down the scale, add Tony Dean to that list.

[MCS]

Jacky Ickx, maybe...

[mikedeering]

Gilles Villeneuve was a bit special in the wet - 3rd at Canada 1981, and of course Watkins Glen 1979...

Which makes his son's performances in the wet all the more surprising. In his Williams days at least Jacques was useless - presumably owing to his years racing in the US?

[Macca]

Stewart definitely - not just because of Zandvoort & Nurburgring 1968, but also Spa 1965 - and Surtees ('Ring '62, Spa '66, Solitude '64, 'Ring '66).


Paul M

[David Lawson]

swaction

I can't allow Damon Hill's outdriving of Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka in '94 to be forgotten.

David

[swaction]

Originally posted by David Lawson
swaction

I can't allow Damon Hill's outdriving of Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka in '94 to be forgotten.

David

Thats true, quite a magnificent drive and an exciting race with the combined times. The schu really struggled in that car, sliding all over the place. Damon didn't put a foot wrong. Conditions not unlike Fuji 76 anyone?

Now I'm a Damon fan from way back, but Spain 96 made me sink into the sofa (mind you, the schu was walking on water that day...)

[Henri Greuter]

Prost a no, but that's not entirely correct.

That same herioc Canadian GP of 81 in which we saw Gilles excell, Prost also lead the race in his Renault Turbo, not a bad achievement.
I think that Alain lost his talents in the rain as an aftermath of Hockenheim '82. Remember, it was his rear wheels on which Didier Pironi was launched and he arrived on the scene as one of the first.

I don't fancy Prost at all, almost on the contrary but I think it's fair to come to his defence on this one.


Verstappen was another one who was quite good in the rain too.
Jan lammers never got the chance to show it in F1 but he was known to be the best driver of jaguar in the rain. (as I once heard being said at Francorchamps '87: "Jan excelled when racing a wet pussy." The man explained to the ladies within our group that he meant to say the Jaguar Jan raced being wet bedause of the rain. "Of course!!!")

Another Dutchman was legendary in the rain too but not in F1: Rob Slotemaker. He owned an anti-skid-school, so that helped. One year he drove in the Francorchamps 24 hours in the pooring rain in a little 2 liter Alfa Romeo and he was by far and away the fastest car at the track. If my memory is correct he was up to 20 tot 25 seconds faster than the second fastest driver in a factory Ford Capri. His skills on a wet track earned him the job to make some of the spectacular spins that appear in McQueen's Le Mans.


Hans Stuck was also good in rain, and what about Bernd Rosemeyer and Rudolf Carracciola?


Jean Pierre Beltoise won that rain soaked Monaco '71 race. But other than that, how was he in the rain?


Henri

[MCS]

Originally posted by ian senior
And lower down the scale, add Tony Dean to that list.

In which case, I would certainly include Steve Thompson, whose perfromances in the wet in F5000 were really quite something.

Mark

[Hieronymus]

Patrick Depailler was also a wet weather driver par excellence. I recall a few splendid performances of his in F1 – Austrian GP 1975, where he rocketed through the field to nearly take the lead at the first corner. Japanese GP 1976.

In ’75 he also excelled in the 1000km sportscar race in the Alpine-Renault A442 in extremely wet conditions. He was leading by miles before the car packed up. In F2 and F3 he also had several star performances in the wet.

Apart from great car control, he was naturally also a driver with the heart of a lion. Two non-negotiable characteristics for a good wet weather racer.

I recall the item on that video “Lap of the Gods” (I think this is the name), that shows Patrick driving the Tyrrell on the rain drenched Montreal circuit. Think it is 1978. Anyone that has seen this before will probably agree that it is quite a masterful performance.

[renzo_zorzi]

senna would be my number one choice . donington 1993 was the most astonishing drive i have ever seen in formula one. he just made the whole field look so ridiculously out of place

[swaction]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Verstappen was another one who was quite good in the rain too.

I have some footage of Verstappen at a wet Canada in the Arrows. He's batteling with a Benetton and really going toe to toe through the first series of bends...

I would agree that he was [is] good in the wet



How about Crazy "My hands are a blur" Jean Alesi? ALSO - Stefan Bellof anyone?

[renzo_zorzi]

vittorio brambilla

he won the wet austrian gp 1975 in his orange march and crashed after crossing the finish line and he was leading in the wet belgian gp 1977 IN A SURTEES!!!

[MCS]

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi
senna would be my number one choice . donington 1993 was the most astonishing drive i have ever seen in formula one. he just made the whole field look so ridiculously out of place

Whilst I was never a Senna fan, I would have to concur.

What an extraordinary exhibition of wet weather driving skills.

Mark

[T54]

Jean Pierre Beltoise won that rain soaked Monaco '71 race. But other than that, how was he in the rain?

Pretty damn good.

Don't forget Gianni Morbidelli...

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by swaction
When it comes to rain, you either can or you can't...

No:
Hill (Damon)
Prost

I'm a bit too boozed to think some others, ...

Obviously... You put Damon in the wrong list !
At Suzuka in the most apalling weather he made MS look like very average ! And at Donington in 93 he'd have given Senna a much closer run but for Williams team dis-orders keeping him behind the all-at-sea Prost, as they did for much of what was really his debut season, lets not forget.

I think Hill has to be one of the most under-rated F1 drivers of the past two decades. Lets not forget that for several seasons he was the ONLY driver stopping a total Schumacher landslide in F1 ! His style was also smooth and effortless compared to the high-energy stuff we always see from Schumacher. There's the saying - the good guys make it look easy - and the in-car shots in 94-6 showed just that. If only Williams pit strategy (and lack thereof) had been half as smooth....

Forget the press "bull" that accompanies any English sportsman who's any good, Hill was always class beind the wheel, in any conditions.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[ian senior]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Obviously... You put Damon in the wrong list !
At Suzuka in the most apalling weather he made MS look like very average ! And at Donington in 93 he'd have given Senna a much closer run but for Williams team dis-orders keeping him behind the all-at-sea Prost, as they did for much of what was really his debut season, lets not forget.

I think Hill has to be one of the most under-rated F1 drivers of the past two decades. Lets not forget that for several seasons he was the ONLY driver stopping a total Schumacher landslide in F1 ! His style was also smooth and effortless compared to the high-energy stuff we always see from Schumacher. There's the saying - the good guys make it look easy - and the in-car shots in 94-6 showed just that. If only Williams pit strategy (and lack thereof) had been half as smooth....

Forget the press "bull" that accompanies any English sportsman who's any good, Hill was always class beind the wheel, in any conditions.

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

Now that makes sense. Damon was more than under-rated, he was under the permanent handicap of being seen as nothing more than the office boy at Williams and - by so many of his other detractors - as just some lucky bugger who happened to be in the right place at the right time. I couldn't honestly say he was an all time great, but he was much, much better than some would have you believe.

[Ray Bell]

I saw Rindt at Warwick Farm in the rain... people still talk about that day...

But Graham Hill set fastest lap in that race.

I saw Steve Thompson blitz them all in the rain at Warwick Farm too. But I was more impressed by Matich's pass on McRae into Paddock Bend than that.

Then there was Colin Bond, first time out in a F5000, fastest in practice in the wet session.

I think I might have mentioned once or twice before the Gold Star race at Phillip Island (1975?) when it turned all nasty mid-race. KB and Johnny Walker in Lolas on slicks.

Side by side around the corner coming onto the main straight, rooster-tails from each rear tyre, slithering and sliding as each fought to get more power down than the other so they might get a faster run onto the straight.

Jim Richards has a name as a rainmaster... but I think that Peter Brock proved once or twice he had a grip on it too.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by MCS


Whilst I was never a Senna fan, I would have to concur.

What an extraordinary exhibition of wet weather driving skills.

Mark

Not for me I'm affraid.
Senna had one of few cars with traction control within the field. So only his performance against the Williamses and those cars who had TC and other gizmo's as well can be compared and applauded decently. And then there isn't much left anymore.
I know I get flak for saying it but so be it.

I also will get flak for the following. I rate MS's at Barcelona in '96 higher than Senna's Donington.
As said, Senna had traction control and the McLaren was a better car trelative to the Williams than the '96 Ferrari was to the '96 Williams. And Michael had no help of any gizmo's on the car anymore, even driving with one cylinder that didn't fire all the time. (Kind of traction control after all... )
But anyway, MS had a far less decent car to do it with compared with the best of his opponents than Senna. Hence why I rate barcelona '96 higher than Donington '93
I've read several articles stating similar opinions by the way sofortunately I am not alone with this feeling.

Henri

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter


Jean Pierre Beltoise won that rain soaked Monaco '71 race. But other than that, how was he in the rain?


Henri

Henri, when the flag dropped at Monaco JPB was driving through the front row. To say he jumped the start would be an understatement. I was at Casino Square and he had a huge lead. Once at the head of the field he held on but it wasn't until coming up to lap the back markers that he had any large amopunts of spray to deal with.

I wouldn't rate Beltoise that good in the wet just on the '71 Monaco GP - trust me there are better drivers in these conditions.

[taylov]

History teaches us that Rudi Caracciola was the best in the rain but even he was not infalliable - in the tragic 1939 Belgian GP he skated off the track in the heavy rain.

The best I ever saw were both in sportscars. Hans J Stuck in the Sauber at the Brands Hatch WSC race in 1982. The first part of the race saw Hans pass most or all of the field in the wettest conditions before the two C100 Fords hit each other on the straight !!!! causing the race to be red flagged.

My second nomination is whoever was in the race winning Rondeau at about 1.10 on Sunday afternoon at LeMans 1980 - Jean-Pierre Jaussard or Jean Rondeau??? - when the Dunlop curve was awash and even the great Ickx in the Porsche 908/80 was caught out by the conditions. The Rondeau stayed on the track (just) for lap after lap while all around them fell off. My brain tells me it must have been Jaussard, but my heart hopes it was Jean Rondeau.

[David Beard]

Short of suggesting that this is all nonsense, may I suggest that the very best drivers have always been able to demonstrate their superiority in any conditions. Others who pop up in the Great Wet Driver lists sometimes merely demonstrated a willingness to take extra risks in conditions of poor visibility through rain and/or red mist. (e.g. the driver of a 917 at Brands, 1970)

The vast majority of memorable Wet Wins have taken place when the Wet Race Hero has had a bit advantage from the best tyres for the job on the day, the most effective traction control, the best wet weather suspension set-up, or a nice flexible engine with friendly power band.

But the bottom line is: the best driver around will always be the best driver in the wet...

[bradbury west]

IIRC John Miles, later of Lotus F1 etc, was pretty handy in the wet, q.v his Elan performances in the sixties. David's point about a top man being a top man rings true

PS I heard that JM took a well sorted Elan round the test track quicker than an Elise not long before he retired from being a development engineer at Hethel

Roger Lund.

[D-Type]

I can think of many who were good in the wet and I can think of a few who were suberb from Caracciola to Senna.

But I can't think of anybody who I would say was poor or under-performed in wet conditions. Perhaps I'm too charitable

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi

vittorio brambilla [...] and he was leading in the wet belgian gp 1977 IN A SURTEES!!!

As did David Purley - in a Lec!

Purls and Lauda were both quick wet-weather exponents in F2 also, as indeed was Steve Thompson in F5000 as Mark says.

Staying with the lower formulae, T. Byrne was a bit special in adverse conditions. It was he who first employed the off-line tactic in the wet; the one later copied by Senna...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter

Jean Pierre Beltoise won that rain soaked Monaco '71 race. But other than that, how was he in the rain?

Make that 1972 - but JPB was an excellent driver in wet conditions, and -false start or not- his win was a very convincing one, almost outclassing the rest of the field in that BRM!
In my memory he was by far the fastest Goodyear driver in that memorable 1971 Dutch GP. That was on inferior tyres; in 1968 was pretty spectacular on the right tyres in the Dutch GP, scoring a strong 2nd place in the Matra V12.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David Beard
Short of suggesting that this is all nonsense, may I suggest that the very best drivers have always been able to demonstrate their superiority in any conditions. Others who pop up in the Great Wet Driver lists sometimes merely demonstrated a willingness to take extra risks in conditions of poor visibility through rain and/or red mist. (e.g. the driver of a 917 at Brands, 1970)

The vast majority of memorable Wet Wins have taken place when the Wet Race Hero has had a bit advantage from the best tyres for the job on the day, the most effective traction control, the best wet weather suspension set-up, or a nice flexible engine with friendly power band.

But the bottom line is: the best driver around will always be the best driver in the wet...

Why does Fangio never appear in these lists?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Why does Fangio never appear in these lists?

I can think of two reasons...

Too few here actually saw him race, and...

None of his classic victories (the ones we read about over and over) were in the wet. Or were they?

[Rembrandt]

Speaking of those who handled it, I would say JJ Lehto. Many good wet races in F1 in my opinion. And in prototypes / sportscars he always seems to excel in the difficult conditions, whether it's dark or wet, or both even.

I agree with the others about Senna being helped by the traction control in Donington '93, but how about Estoril '85? I know Ayrton himself lamented that drive saying it was pure luck that he stayed on the track, but I still think it was one of the best wet weather drives ever.

[David Hyland]

Some further nominations in this thread

David.

[rosemeyer]

Amon was very good in then wet

[rosemeyer]

Nobody could beat Gilles in the wet ask Ronne Peterson Watkens Glen 1979

[David Birchall]

Racing in the wet is a whole different experience for most drivers. I could Never do well in the wet although I could beat the same group of guys in the dry. In my case I think it was because of years of riding motorcycles in English winters. When I took up racing (in N. America) I was competitive whenever we raced in the dry but as soon as it rained (and it rained A LOT at Westwood) I was into the hay bales or whatever. My whole perspective would change and I would no longer feel in control of the car. I have tremendous respect for drivers who can handle wet tracks; Senna and Villenueve snr come to mind. The guy who can handle the wet is the superior driver.
David B

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by taylov

My second nomination is whoever was in the race winning Rondeau at about 1.10 on Sunday afternoon at LeMans 1980 - Jean-Pierre Jaussard or Jean Rondeau??? - when the Dunlop curve was awash and even the great Ickx in the Porsche 908/80 was caught out by the conditions. The Rondeau stayed on the track (just) for lap after lap while all around them fell off. My brain tells me it must have been Jaussard, but my heart hopes it was Jean Rondeau.

Jean-Pierre Jaussaud, I think, was always a very underrated driver. Far better than most people will give him credit for. Apart from being twice a Le Mans winner, he was also French F3 champion and also runner-up in the European F2 championship.

I met Jean-Pierre a couple of years ago, after the completion of the Paris-Le Cap Rally. The idea I got was that he is a most kind and humble person...

[Roly]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Not for me I'm affraid.
Senna had one of few cars with traction control within the field. So only his performance against the Williamses and those cars who had TC and other gizmo's as well can be compared and applauded decently. And then there isn't much left anymore.
I know I get flak for saying it but so be it.

I also will get flak for the following. I rate MS's at Barcelona in '96 higher than Senna's Donington.
As said, Senna had traction control and the McLaren was a better car trelative to the Williams than the '96 Ferrari was to the '96 Williams. And Michael had no help of any gizmo's on the car anymore, even driving with one cylinder that didn't fire all the time. (Kind of traction control after all... )
But anyway, MS had a far less decent car to do it with compared with the best of his opponents than Senna. Hence why I rate barcelona '96 higher than Donington '93
I've read several articles stating similar opinions by the way sofortunately I am not alone with this feeling.

Henri

Said that, MS's Ferrari had a misfire, or only 9 cylinders, or something like that. So his car was underpowered which helped him a lot in that race. None the less, he was far better then any other driver there.

Roland

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

I'm astonished that, unless I missed it in a previous post, nobody has mentioned the crushing victory by John Cannon in the '68 Laguna Can Am. He lapped the field in an obsolete McLaren. Also worthy of note is George Eaton's third place finish again in an obsolete car.

I must mention that Mark Donohue should be considered an excellent mudder. I saw him waltz away from the field in a F5000 race at Mosport circa 1970. On Eppie Weitzes home track, he pulled out a substantial lead. Also, in his very first F1 start, he qualified well at Mosport in '71 and went on to a fine third in this soggy and ugly event.

[Ray Bell]

Cannon was also doing a runner in a Tasman Cup race at Oran Park in the rain... until a wire in the system that had been cut and rejoined got wet through the insulating tape.

[Collombin]

Originally posted by rosemeyer
Nobody could beat Gilles in the wet ask Ronne Peterson Watkens Glen 1979

I somehow doubt Peterson was there that day, and of the drivers who were only Scheckter had a real stab at setting a quick time.

That said, Gilles was obviously pretty special in the wet.

Hulme in the "no" category? I know he hated the wet, but can't recall how well he actually fared in the rain when required.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Why does Fangio never appear in these lists?

He doesn't , which proves my point, I reckon. Who could possibly claim Fangio couldn't cope with wetness? Or sportscars for that matter- reference that other daft list of Great Sports Car Drivers.

Then there's that list of ded good drivers who had/have the special ability apparently needed for racing a car with a roof? What next? Drivers who excelled at racing cars with full ashtrays, on a Thursday?

A great driver is a great driver.

[Roger Clark]

Rather worryingly, I find myself in total agreement with David Beard. There are only two things to be said about driving in the rain. The first is that it allows a truly great driver to show his ability more than he could in the dry. The second is that it can allow a driver possessed of great bravery (or little imagination) to do better than he otherwise would. Neither demand any special ability that is not required on a dry road.

With regard to Fangio, it is interesting to consider how few wet Grands Prix there were during the lifetime of the 2.5-litre formula. Perhaps the sun really does shine on the righteous.

[Don Speekingleesh]

Originally posted by mikedeering
In his Williams days at least Jacques was useless - presumably owing to his years racing in the US?

I heard this was because JV used a throttle with extremely short travel, and therefore didn't have the sensitivity needed in the wet.

Originally posted by swaction
Now I'm a Damon fan from way back, but Spain 96 made me sink into the sofa (mind you, the schu was walking on water that day...)

AFAIK this was because Hill had set the car up for a drying track, and once the weather starting getting worse he had no hope.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Rather worryingly, I find myself in total agreement with David Beard.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
.....With regard to Fangio, it is interesting to consider how few wet Grands Prix there were during the lifetime of the 2.5-litre formula. Perhaps the sun really does shine on the righteous.

An interesting point, and very well expressed...

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
With regard to Fangio, it is interesting to consider how few wet Grands Prix there were during the lifetime of the 2.5-litre formula.

But don't tell the politicians, they are currently obsessed with convincing us the weather has got much warmer and dryer in recent years....

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[Eugen]

Stefan Bellof , Monaco 1984

[renzo_zorzi]

nigel mansell wasnt too bad in rainy weather as well

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi
vittorio brambilla

he won the wet austrian gp 1975 in his orange march and crashed after crossing the finish line and he was leading in the wet belgian gp 1977 IN A SURTEES!!!

Also Fuji 1976, Japan GP.

I seem to recall Nicola Larini running second or third in a wet wet wet Canadian GP (what year???) driving an Osella.

[renzo_zorzi]

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich


Also Fuji 1976, Japan GP.

I seem to recall Nicola Larini running second or third in a wet wet wet Canadian GP (what year???) driving an Osella.

i think u mean montreal 1989, altho i dont recall larini running so high. nevertheless that race was indeed another case of "leading, but never won" regarding derek warwick driving an arrows.

[lanciaman]

I always did better in the rain racing sports cars. Maybe I just didn't like going fast.

Rain put a premium on balance and braking and smoothness. Being down on power or having the wrong diff or not having the best brakes no longer mattered. As for not being able to see a blasted thing, you just said the hell with it and tried not to run over the fellow ahead of you.