44 replies to this topic

[Shiftin]

How is that for change?

But seriously, I am not here to seek sensation but I do am a fan of the 'old school' drivers. Espescially their licentiousness... I am also a 'fan' of a good old (honest) brawl now and then...

From my own 'Nostalgia' I remember Senna punching Irvine after he unlapped himself (twice?)... And of course this isn't the right thing to do, it does show emotion and involvement.... And somehow I whish we would see this more often. No injuries and/or casualties but just well.... emotion!

It makes drivers so much more human when they loose it. Like Schumacher in 1998, the Belgian GP. He looked like he was about to lynch David Coulthard after he ran in to him ..... It's great when they drop their mask and act like most of us would do...

remember?

So, the reason I started this thread is to ask you for examples. I reckon these little fights happened a lot more in the old days. And as I said before, not fights to deliberatly hurt someone. But drivers 'losing' it after they got brake-tested, blocked, punted or whatever...

I just love reading your stories....

[4mula1]

Eliseo Salizar and Nelson Piquet at Hockenheim, I'm not sure what year. Nelson let his fists and feet do the talking.

[Shiftin]

Do you know what the reason was?

It's so cool when you seem them 'boiling' in the cockpit, struggling to get out of the belts asap. Lots of body language that you can alsmost feel in front of the telly.

[Shiftin]

Funny, the first search I do displays the 3 examples mentioned.

http://f1rejects.com/hall/tyson/

Undisputed victor of this category, though, is this interesting bout between 3-time World Champion Nelson Piquet and ... well, backmarker Eliseo Salazar.

Piquet was leading the German Grand Prix of 1982, and while speeding around the Hockenheim curcuit, came upon Salazar. Both were approaching the newly positioned Ostcurve tyre chicane. Either becuase he didn't realise he was being lapped, or because he didn't realise there was a car there at all, Eliseo failed to slow down as Nelson tried to overtake him. He speared into the side of Piquet's car and both smashed into the tryes. This forced Piquet's car off the track, and left Salazar's lying in the middle of the track (see below).

But this was where the real fireworks began. Unlike some drivers, who are able to take retirement with a certain air of "c'est la vie", Nelson decided that Salazar needed to be taught a lesson about the etiquette of racing. Piquet failed in his altruistic endeavours, however, and the scene merely decended into a prime time punch up on the side of the track as Nelson let his fists do the talking (see above).

funny, seeing guys fight with their helmets on...

more pics and stories on the site I mentioned above...

[WHITE]

Yes, This episode was a little spot in Piquet's career. That incident meant that Piquet's hopes ( if any ) of fighting for the title, vanished. This may explain his disappointment . Ironically, he was told some years later ( if I am not wrong ) by the BMW engineers that, upon checking the engine after the race, they found that it would not have last more than a few more laps.

[Paul Parker]

Quite a few examples spring to mind including Jim Clark being restrained from walloping Brian Naylor after Clark was forced off the road during the 1960 Oulton Park Gold Cup.

Perhaps the funniest (if violence can ever be funny) incident, or rather the aftermath thereof was the letter that appeared in Autosport in I think 1970 from Dave Morgan's mother who wrote if I recall correctly about 'The beastly boy Hunt'! This because James had punched DM after a coming together during a F3 race at Crystal Palace.

Of course nowadays the consequences of hooligan or careless driving are usually only bent motor cars and bruised egos, so violence is more likely. Years ago the sort of antics that began in FF and were disgracefully employed by Senna and others in F1 from 1984 onwards including the current WC would have ended in death or serious injury. Indeed some were earlier victims of over aggressive driving, but perhaps not intentionally as with Chris Lambert's fatal accident during a F2 race at Zandvoort in 1968.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Shiftin

Do you know what the reason was?

Despite the commonly regurgitated version as given by F1 Rejects, the facts of the matter were slightly different. Quelle surprise...

Eliseo was well aware that Piquet was about to lap him, had moved left and backed off early for the chicane only for Piquet to lift off early at the same moment. Confused, Eliseo glanced in his mirror and came off the brakes now under the impression that the Brabham driver was letting him through first, but instead the Brazilian came off the brakes too and went for the racing line. Seeing this, Eliseo slammed on the brakes again but, now well off line, this had little effect - as did his attempts to steer the car out of trouble also due to the marbles. Then the cars collided, and we're all aware of the next episode.

At best it was a 50-50 racing incident, but you could very convincingly argue - as the more knowledgeable observers did at the time (and many more in hindsight) - that Piquet, some 25 seconds in the lead, was more than foolish to risk such a late manoeuvre considering he'd dithered as he approached the chicane in the first place.

Eliseo and I were flatmates at the time, and the fallout was pretty intense when the Chilean press arrived on the doormat. All his national papers were concerned with was why he hadn't decked Piquet in retaliation! He went mad when he read them and insisted we removed the Chilean flag from all his gear; overalls, helmet, everything. The flag didn't reappear until 1986...

[John B]

IIRC the reason Piquet was pushing so hard was because he had a scheduled pit stop to make. Brabham was the innovator of this strategy back then and this was one of the first races they were implementing it - it was a novelty and none of the other top teams did it. Obviously by 1983 everyone had caught on and they became the norm. Although up by 25 seconds Piquet was still not where he needed to be at the time, espeically as stops were not as efficient as they are (were)now.

There had been a sort of unintentional preview of what could be achieved by pitting when Prost blew a tire and fell a lap down at South Africa, but rallied to win it on the track.

Another Salazar story I remember, as reported in Autocourse - at Holland the year before he almost lost his team a point by not passing Alan Jones, a lap ahead in 2nd but with destroyed tires, because he didn't feel it was right to overtake the world champ. Mo Nunn almost lost it but another car retired near the finish and they did get the precious point.....

[John B]

Not formula 1 but recent in NASCAR - it's widely reported that Jeff Gordon and Mike Bliss had a punch-out at an airport last week after Chicago; Bliss was reportedly sporting a black eye this week.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by John B

Another Salazar story I remember, as reported in Autocourse - at Holland the year before he almost lost his team a point by not passing Alan Jones, a lap ahead in 2nd but with destroyed tires, because he didn't feel it was right to overtake the world champ. Mo Nunn almost lost it but another car retired near the finish and they did get the precious point.....

That backs-up the events of Hockenheim a year later; Eliseo was eager not to interfere with the leaders...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Despite the commonly regurgitated version as given by F1 Rejects, the facts of the matter were slightly different. Quelle surprise...

Eliseo was well aware that Piquet was about to lap him, had moved left and backed off early for the chicane only for Piquet to lift off early at the same moment. Confused, Eliseo glanced in his mirror and came off the brakes now under the impression that the Brabham driver was letting him through first, but instead the Brazilian came off the brakes too and went for the racing line. Seeing this, Eliseo slammed on the brakes again but, now well off line, this had little effect - as did his attempts to steer the car out of trouble also due to the marbles. Then the cars collided, and we're all aware of the next episode.

Nice story, but i've watched the video now at least six times and it still doesn't convince me.... From what I see I simply can't believe that - short of having a complete mental shortcircuit- Eliseo could think that Piquet was letting him through first.

[Wellington]

Hi

If memory serves me, Senna lost it too with Schumacher at Magny Cours 92. They had a go at each other at the hairpin (seemingly unintentional though) and back into the pits, Senna went directly to see Schumacher and slapped him in the face. Sorry I have no link to illustrate the incident, but I remember pictures of the heated discussion (full of pointed fingers, twisted mouthes and frowned eyebrows), that should not be too hard to find. Like the Irvine incident, it reminds me of what Prost said about Senna: he was in a world of his own, with a divine right to his place and abiding by only the rules he made! Must have been a very weird guy.

More recently I wonder whether some pairs did not go at it behind the curtains: Schum jr and Fisichella during their Jordan spell, Alesi and Prost (as a team manager) at the end of Alesi's carreer, Alesi and Todt at the beginning of Todt's time at Ferrari. "Unfortunately", nerve soothing brawls are something belonging to gentleman's racing (see the opposition there?) rather than aseptised corporate professional racing.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Wellington
Hi

If memory serves me, Senna lost it too with Schumacher at Magny Cours 92. They had a go at each other at the hairpin (seemingly unintentional though) and back into the pits, Senna went directly to see Schumacher and slapped him in the face. ....

I remember that as a pointed finger in Schumis chest, as in "If you EVER do that gain, I'll drive you straight through next week!"

[Shiftin]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Eliseo and I were flatmates at the time, and the fallout was pretty intense when the Chilean press arrived on the doormat. All his national papers were concerned with was why he hadn't decked Piquet in retaliation! He went mad when he read them and insisted we removed the Chilean flag from all his gear; overalls, helmet, everything. The flag didn't reappear until 1986...

Wow... So I'd guess he was a bit of a 'hothead'... On the other hand I like people with principles and especially those who stick by them...

[rolando]

Jean Behra was, I think, the first fighter driver, he punched Maurice Trintignant and Ferrari team manager Romolo Tavoni.

[Lec CRP1]

What about Luigi Fagioli and the wheel hammer? Not a fist fight, I grant you, but probably just as dangerous.

[dmj]

The very best fight I ever had read about was certainly this one:

[Shiftin]

Originally posted by dmj
The very best fight I ever had read about was certainly this one:

That was indeed funny. And like others said, Buford knows how to tell it so you can actually visualize it.

rolando and Lec CRP1,

Do you have an idea what started these incidents? I am interested in the fight itself as well (probably even more) the story that got the 'blood boiling'... I mean, normal people don't start punching people for nothing but some are triggered easier than others...

[Lec CRP1]

Originally posted by Shiftin

rolando and Lec CRP1,

Do you have an idea what started these incidents? I am interested in the fight itself as well (probably even more) the story that got the 'blood boiling'... I mean, normal people don't start punching people for nothing but some are triggered easier than others...

Fagioli and Rudi Caracciola were both in the Mercedes team in the 1930s. Certain incidents happened, and when Fagioli went to Auto Union he had a massive battle with 'Caratsch' at a race in Tripoli. They finished in Rudi's favour. An incensed Fagioli threw a wheel hammer somewhere in the direction of both Caracciola and Alfred Neubauer and missed. Unsatisfied, he went back to the Mercedes pit with a knife... Ah, even today's irrational disputes are nothing like in the old days...

[Shiftin]

Originally posted by Lec CRP1


Fagioli and Rudi Caracciola were both in the Mercedes team in the 1930s. Certain incidents happened, and when Fagioli went to Auto Union he had a massive battle with 'Caratsch' at a race in Tripoli. They finished in Rudi's favour. An incensed Fagioli threw a wheel hammer somewhere in the direction of both Caracciola and Alfred Neubauer and missed. Unsatisfied, he went back to the Mercedes pit with a knife... Ah, even today's irrational disputes are nothing like in the old days...

No ****...

(I guess they were from the 'old country.....');)

edit: Better add a wink in case some fella from the old country thinks I am being disprespectfull...

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by John B
Not formula 1 but recent in NASCAR - it's widely reported that Jeff Gordon and Mike Bliss had a punch-out at an airport last week after Chicago; Bliss was reportedly sporting a black eye this week.

The lengths NASCAR will go to "assist" Jeff Gordon's manhood

"Not that there's anything wrong with that"

Wait, let me guess, it wasn't the on track incident, they were fighting over a Playboy Playmate or stripper...right?

So who was it that really punched Mike Bliss?

[bathceltic]

Near fisty cuffs. I found this clip on the internet. The short soundless film from Eurosport shows Nigel Mansell chasing a fan and then falling spectacularly, with the situation being calmed down by the small one of the two famous Lotus moustachioed mehanics of the 1980's who can just be seen beside the trouble maker. Does anyone know the story behind it?

Edited by bathceltic, 13 November 2010 - 21:04.

[Les]

Raul Boesel v Chico Serra had a pretty brief but mad punch up in Canada in 82. There's a clip on Youtube but I won't post it here due to having Palletti's accident tagged on at the end. However this is the description:

'A battle that not many people now about. During qualifying, Serra was, allegedly, blocked by Boesel in his very last flying lap. So, after qualifying, a very angry Serra confronted Boesel, and a physical punch up followed....'

[Tim Murray]

Near fisty cuffs. I found this clip on the internet. The short soundless film from Eurosport shows Nigel Mansell chasing a fan and then falling spectacularly, with the situation being calmed down by the small one of the two famous Lotus moustachioed mehanics of the 1980's who can just be seen beside the trouble maker. Does anyone know the story behind it?

Discussed in this earlier thread:

Nigel Mansell chases journalist – video

[Ibsey]

Another non F1 fight - 1998 Indycar Grand Prix of Houston, - Paul Tracy retired following a coming together with his team mate Dario Francetti (apologies for spelling, its late & I'm in a hurry). Tracy then storms up to team owner Barry Green asking why he didn't order Dario to move aside to allow Tracy pass. A row breaks out between Tracy & Barry Green, and results in a fisty cuffs!!!

Although I am not aware of any video footage of the incident, Tracy body language immediately afterwards when he jumps on his moped, speaks volumes about his feelings over the affair.

You wouldn't have thought that colliding with your teammate & then hitting the boss in the same day, would be a wise career move. However according to a utube comment, apparently Tracy got a contract extension the very next day???

In regards to the Salizar (again apologies if I have mis spelt that) & Piquet incident, I had also heard the BMW engine 'about to blow' rumour. What I also heard was that Piquet had actually helped Salizar (a fellow South American) adjust to racing in Europe, before Salizar got into F1. That was one of the reasons why Piquet was so angry in Germany 1982.

However upon hearing that the BMW engine would have failed anyway, afterwards, Piquet later apologised to Salizar (seems a bit unlike Piquet to me), and thanked Salizar telling him that he actually did BMW a massive PR favour, in avoiding a BMW engine failure on home soil.

Could anyone confirm/deny this story?

Thanks in advance

Edited by Ibsey, 14 November 2010 - 03:24.

[URY914]

Peter Revson knocked Sam Posey off the pit wall. I believe it was at Can-Am race.

[bathceltic]

Discussed in this earlier thread:

Nigel Mansell chases journalist – video

Thanks for putting me onto that thread which I have read and sadly nobody seems to know for sure what the story is. It definitely shows a clip of the Mexico podium scene of 1990 before switching to the paddock at Hungaroing in either 89 or 90 (Not many F1 paddocks have Lada's in them!). The last poster,gio66 reckons it is because a fan has stolen his cap. I think the fan is holding a camera. Maybe he took a picture without permission?

Edited by bathceltic, 14 November 2010 - 11:21.

[arttidesco]

While watching Jeff Gordon making a complete fool of himself at Texas with Jeff Burton who is around twice the height of Gordon, I learned from a fellow NASCAR fan that there seems to be a bit of a difference of opinion regarding drivers making fools of them selves by assuming the role of pantomime pugilists, in the US apparently one is expected to show emotion as and when it crops up which does not appear to be the case in the UK.

Frankly I do not think there is any place for pugilism in sport which is essentially a non contact sport.

[Altitude]

James Hunt floored a marshal who tried to stop him crossing the track at Mosport Park in 1977.

[oldtransamdriver]

Peter Revson knocked Sam Posey off the pit wall. I believe it was at Can-Am race.

This little get-together happened at the Riverside Trans-Am race in 1970. There is a famous photo of it elsewhere on the forum.

Robert Barg

[Tim Murray]

There is a famous photo of it elsewhere on the forum.

It's in this thread with a similar theme:

Pugilism in the pits & on the track...

Here's the post with the link to the photo:

A photo: http://theselvedgeya...445edde82_o.jpg

From this site (scroll about halfway down): http://theselvedgeya...-off-the-track/

[Dan333SP]

I'd love to hear Sam make a reference to that incident in one of his little poetic introductions to the big endurance and F1 races on Speed Channel...

[Doug Nye]

I doubt there has ever been a proper Fist Fight in Formula 1. Gurly handbags at dawn...maybe...but never a Fist FIGHT.

DCN

[The Oracle]

Again not F1 but i'm surprised Paul Tracey's champ car exploits of recent years haven't been discussed, the year and tracks escape me but from memory he spun off at a corner and as he rejoined Tagliani arrived on the scene and the two were out on the spot, cue fisticuffs in the pitlane and the live tv feed frantically switching to a replay, however if you check our friend youtube the full fight is shown from the helicopter camera. Fast forward to the next race and on the final lap Bordais and Tracey collide while fighting for a podium position cue mini fisticuffs between the Canadian and Frenchman, the following round at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve saw Tracey greeting the crowd during the driver parade in a comedy wrestling mask and cape!

[scheivlak]

From 1972's Autocourse report on the Monaco GP:

"Regazzoni spun on oil when challenged by Stewart and wrecked the front suspension against the barrier. While attempting to walk back to the pits through a prohibited area the tough Swiss was involved in an argument with a policeman: blows were exchanged and he was taken to the police station."

[jimjimjeroo]

Wasn't there a Senna Irvine incident at the 93 Japanese GP

[kevins]

Just seeing this topic, re the Piquet/Salazar '82 German GP, IIRC Piquet was one of the first on the scene of the Pironi crash the day before, perhaps a good few minutes before the medics and Sid arrived, that must have been a horrible experience for him (Piquet) and I always felt that must have contributed to his short temper come race day.

[Arjan de Roos]

Not F1 as well, but we should mention but Foyt vs. Luyendyk at Texas Motor Speedway in 1997. Billy Boat was announced the winner, but Arie's team knew there was a scoring error made. Luyendyk entered victory lane and while Arie 'discussed' with TMS manager Gossage, Foyt intervened by slapping and grabbing Arie.... Still USAC had made a mistake and announced a few days later that Arie was the winner. Foyt kept the trophy.

[scheivlak]

Wasn't there a Senna Irvine incident at the 93 Japanese GP

Yes, as mentioned in post #1.

[WhatOh]

Mansell tried to strangle Senna at Spa 1987 after a disagreement about a corner.

I don't think Senna was 'strange' as Prost said, I think like many top sportsmen (pick any sport) he was a bit of a spoilt kid - not the first or last.

[taylov]

Not F1 but it was at a British GP......



Tony

[HeskethBoy]

James Hunt floored a marshal who tried to stop him crossing the track at Mosport Park in 1977.

Most Grand Prix marshals these days are advised to stay at least 1.5 metres away from a driver until it can be verified that he has calmed down (unless there is concern for injury, of course).
All too often, the emotion of the incident, regardless whose fault it was, leads to a reactionary swing, and a marshal is down - nearly always on television.
I recall Beltoise clipping a Pit Lane marshal around the ears in Canada back in the seventies - and we saw a Spanish chap get a little annoyed with a marshal after the driver spun into the gravel (without assistance) in Qualifying in Melbourne only last week.

[W154]

Mild mannered Jim Clark gave as good as he got when Dutch police did their Stormtrooper impression on him at Zandvort in 1963.
I also seem to recall Colin Chapman being involved in a few skirmishes with Italian police at Monza in the 60's?

[MCS]

Mansell tried to strangle Senna at Spa 1987 after a disagreement about a corner.

Are you quite sure?

[WhatOh]

@MCS

Hello

Yes (although maybe using the word strangle is a bit over-dramatic ) , I read about it in 'Senna versus Prost'. Here is a link to Mansell's comments afterwards.

http://en.espnf1.com...story/2367.html

This is the incident



Toodles
Agni

Edited by WhatOh, 25 March 2012 - 11:45.