34 replies to this topic

[aerogi]

collect 'quartett' card games (I have around 400), but mostly there is no information about track, driver or year... Last weekend I bought another one, called 'Bolides', a very nice one I think, but I have great difficulties to ID them... So I decided to scan them all, post them all, and let the 'specialists' ID all of these... So what I would like to know is:

Car (I know it is mentioned on the card, but it happens the info is wrong)
Driver
Circuit (I know the first 8 cards are Zeltweg though...)
Year
And in case you are 'bored', a result of that particular driver in that race...

I apologise for the many number of pics, but I tried to resize them all to quite smaller scans (33kb each I think).

I might do a few others if you like... This might be fun and I hope they might even be interesting for some members, as many of these I hadn't see myself (in colour) ...


Cover


Cards

SERIES A



SERIES B



SERIES C



SERIES D



SERIES E



SERIES F



SERIES G



SERIES H
http://img.photobuck..._Bolides_H2.jpg http://img.photobuck..._Bolides_H3.jpg http://img.photobuck..._Bolides_H4.jpg

[Rob Semmeling]

Cool! Thanks for posting.

Card F2 is not a March 717. It looks more like a Lola to me. Card H4 does show a March 717 however, with the correct year. Driver is Helmut Kelleners (who also appears on F4 with his 1972 McLaren). I wonder how correct the horsepower figures are.

[petefenelon]

While we're at it, there's no Group 5s there, only Group 6s and 7s ;)

Never had that set... and I had a drawer full of Top Trumps and Ace Trumps etc. when I was a nipper.

[petefenelon]

I'm not sure G1's a McLaren, come to think of it.... it's a bit on the two-litre-group 6 side for that ;P

[aerogi]

Originally posted by petefenelon
While we're at it, there's no Group 5s there, only Group 6s and 7s ;)

Never had that set... and I had a drawer full of Top Trumps and Ace Trumps etc. when I was a nipper.

So that's how these things are called in English... Learning every day...

I collect those, I usually buy them at flea markets.

And apparently quite some mistakes in the game...

[Jesper O. Hansen]

I used to OWN a set of those cards (a little envy....)

Jesper

[JSF]

Rob is correct on the March 717, it's the only 717 built with chassis number 717-1. This car is still going strong in the Orwell supersports cup, it set fastest lap at the nurburgring last weekend.

[Rob Semmeling]

@JSF: I meant to ask you in the other thread: did you know Helmut Kelleners was present at the Oldtimer GP on Sunday? At least he was supposed to be there, haven't seen or heard anything of his visit though.

[adminj]

Wow!! Great Cars!!
Some of them you can see here (start here) : www.norisringhistorie.de/norframe4.htm !

Let´s have a look in the cards :

H4: Helmut Kelleners
H3: Jürgen Neuhaus
H1: Joakim Bonnier

G4: Willy Kauhsen
G2: Is definitly no McLaren; I think, it´s Harald Link on KMW-Porsche 2600 SP

F4: Helmut Kelleners
F3: Looks like a VDS-McLaren; may be Teddy Pilette?

E3: Lasse Sirviö
E2: Ernst Kraus
E1: Should be Willy Kauhsen

D2: Reinhold Jöst

B4: Hans Müller-Perschl; KMW-Porsche SP-20

Without any guarantee!

Jürgen

[Pedro 917]

Series A :

A1. Carlo Facetti / 1000 km Zeltweg 1972 (with "Pam")
A2. Rolf Stommelen / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Regazzoni)
A3. Helmut Marko / 1000 km Zeltweg 1972 (with Carlos Pace)
A4. Jacky Ickx / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Redman)

[Pedro 917]

Series B :

B1. Vic Elford or Gérard Larrousse / 1000 km Zeltweg 1972
B2. Henri Pescarolo / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Larrousse)
B3. Derek Bell / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Ganley)
B4. Kurt Hild or Sepp Greger / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973

[JSF]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
@JSF: I meant to ask you in the other thread: did you know Helmut Kelleners was present at the Oldtimer GP on Sunday? At least he was supposed to be there, haven't seen or heard anything of his visit though.

No, i didnt know that. It would have been great to see him with the car again, maybe next year?

[Pedro 917]

F1. Howden Ganley / Interserie Zeltweg 1972
F2. looks like Georg Loos in a McLaren (1971?)
F3. looks like Teddy Pilette in the VDS McLaren (CanAm?)
F4. Helmut Kelleners / Interserie Zeltweg 1972

[Pedro 917]

E1. Willi Kauhsen / Hockenheim Interserie 1973
E2. Ernst Kraus / Hockenheim Interserie 1973
E3. Lasse Sirviö / Hockenheim Interserie 1973
E4. Gerhard Denu or Kaye Griffiths / Hockenheim Interserie 1973

all pictures were taken at the same event.

[ray b]

who and or what was KMW??
did they have much sucess with these cars ??
what other cars did they do, before or after these ?
did KMW ever run in the USA races ?

[aerogi]

Thanks Pedro 917 for the ID so far! Brilliant!

[fausto]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Series A :

A1. Carlo Facetti / 1000 km Zeltweg 1972 (with "Pam")
A2. Rolf Stommelen / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Regazzoni)
A3. Helmut Marko / 1000 km Zeltweg 1972 (with Carlos Pace)
A4. Jacky Ickx / 1000 km Zeltweg 1973 (with Redman)

Carlo Facetti-"Pam" could be from 1973, I remember the Brescia Corse V8 car was seen that year, after the works team switched to F12

[Pedro 917]

The Facetti-Pam picture is indeed from 1973, my mistake

[Frank de Jong]

Lovely! I've got a shoebox full of them as well (we've had a thread about this before), it' the first time I see a Dutch version - mine are all German.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Originally posted by petefenelon
While we're at it, there's no Group 5s there, only Group 6s and 7s ;)

These cars were Group 5 untill December 31 1975. I believe I have seen a B5 (B for prototypes?) tag for these cars, while from the following Porsche 935 period it was A5 (A for production cars?).

Jesper

[Olivier Favre]

B4 : Hild-Müller-Perschl - 1000 km Zeltweg 1972
C2 : Stommelen-Hezemans - 1000 km Zeltweg 1972
C3 : Dupont-Blancpain - 1000 km Zeltweg 1972

[Tomas Karlsson]

H1 is not Bonnier. Could it be Peter Westbury at Hockenheim Oct 3rd 1971?

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
The Facetti-Pam picture is indeed from 1973, my mistake

and the driver in the picture is surely "Pam", because Facetti had a green-white helmet,

[Nanni Dietrich]

My opinion:

A1 - "Pam" - Zeltweg 1973
A2 - Rolf Stommelen - Zeltweg 1973
A3 - Helmut Marko - Zeltweg 1972
A4 - Jacky Ickx - Zeltweg 1972

B1 - Vic Elford - Zeltweg 1972
B2 - Henri Pescarolo - Zeltweg 1973
B3 - Derek Bell - Zeltwg 1973
B4 - Sepp Greger - Zeltweg 1973

C1 - ??? - Hockenheim 1973
C2 - Rolf Stommelen - Zeltweg 1972
C3 - Paul Blancpain (or Michel Dupont ???)- Zeltweg 1973
C4 - ??? - Hockenheim 1973

D1 - Kaye Griffiths - Hockenheim 1973
D2 - Reinhold Joest - Hockenheim 1973
D3 - Hans Muller-Perschl ??? - Hockenheim 1973
D4 - Kurt Hild ??? - Hockenheim 1973

E1 - Willi Kauhsen - Hockenheim 1973
E2 - Ernst Kraus - Hockenheim 1973
E3 - Lasse Sirvioe - Hockenheim 1973
E4 - Gerhard Denu ??? - Hockenheim 1973

F1 - Howden Ganley - Zeltweg 1972
F2 - Franz Pesch - NOT March 717 but McLaren M8F-Chevy - Zeltweg 1972
F3 - Teddy Pilette - Zeltweg 1972
F4 - Helmut kelleners - Zeltweg 1972

G1 - could be Egmond Dursch - Dursch-Lola Special ??? - Zeltweg 1972
G2 - Porsche 917 Can-Am, presentation end 1971 (stickers Marlboro for Jo Siffert)
G3 - George Follmer - ??? Mid Ohio ??? 1972
G4 - Wilson Fittipaldi - Hockenheim 1973

H1 - Peter Westbury - Hockenheim 1971
H2 - Brian Redman - Hockenheim 1971
H3 - Jurgen Neuhaus - Nurburgring ??? 1971
H4 - Helmut Kelleners - Hockenheim 1971

[964targa]

F2 is the McLaren M8E of the Gelo Racing Team, driver could be Georg Loos or Franz Pesch.

[Phigr7]

F2 is G. Loos McLaren M8E
F3 T. Pilette
E4 Griffiths
H3 Neuhaus 1971
G2 917.10.001 before his first race at Watkins Glen 1971
E3 917 PA or spider

[David M. Kane]

I too would like to know more about these KMW chassis.

[964targa]

Originally posted by Phigr7
F2 is G. Loos McLaren M8E
F3 T. Pilette
E4 Griffiths
H3 Neuhaus 1971
G2 917.10.001 before his first race at Watkins Glen 1971
E3 917 PA or spider

The H3 Neuhaus 917 Spyder was sold to Georg Loos and in Hockenheim 1972 it was driven by Franz Pesch Gelo Racing and in 1973 driven by Juergen Barth Gelo Racing. The car exists still today restored and exhibit by Amalfi Racing.

[simonlewisbooks]

D1 - I think this may be Gregor Fischer, Lola Sbarro Spyder Chevrolet.

He's listed as a a starter at Hochenhiem in the July event of the 1973 series and finished 9th in the Sepetember event

E4 - Agree thats Kaye Griffeths' ex VDS Turbo M8, later to feature LED ZEPPLIN sponsorship.

Has anyone got any contemporary photos of the ZEPPLIN colour scheme? The current owner of the car has tried for some time to locate any without success.

[simonlewisbooks]

F3 - is Teddy Pilette, possibly in the first of the two VDS McLaren Turbo cars(same chassis as Griffeths car - E4) But it isn't Zeltweg 72 as he seems to have ran No. 36 in all the Interserie events that year and No.25 in 1973...and 6 in 1971, so maybe a Can Am event?

F2 - Looks like it's Pesch in the Gelo team car - But not at Zeltwig, he wasn't entered, so maybe Imola 72 but he's listed as no.29 for that one and the photo appears to show 28...which is 72 was normally on Herby Muller's 512M..

H1 - I agree this looks likley Peter Westbury in the October 71 Hochenhiem event although he was down to run no.4 according to the entry list. The only other logical alternative for the Bonnier T222 is Vic Elford in the July 71 event , also listed as 4.. maybe for one or other of them the number was changed, after the programmehad been printed, to 37 as 4 was Jo Bo's regular number?

The numbering in Interserie seems somewhat open to interpretation!

[Phigr7]

AFAIK, Pilette never ran in Can-Am.

Aerogi, is it possible to get bigger scans, please?
Anyway, thanks for sharing.
I'm a big Can-Am/Interserie fan, with more than 10 000 pix and I'd neser seen yours before

[Mallory Dan]

I've got this set too, and 1 or 2 similar ones. Very good at the time, and fantastic to look back on now. I have a German set, I think/hope, titled "Heisse Ofens", which I think translates as Hot-Rods or similar.

Northern TNF meeting curiousity ??

[wildman]

G3 is almost certainly Mark Donohue, not George Follmer. Photos in Pete Lyons' Can-Am book appear to show Mark using an all-red helmet at Mosport in 1972, his only race before the big testing shunt at Road Atlanta.

[964targa]

Originally posted by Phigr7
F2 is G. Loos McLaren M8E
F3 T. Pilette
E4 Griffiths
H3 Neuhaus 1971
G2 917.10.001 before his first race at Watkins Glen 1971
E3 917 PA or spider

The 917 spyder from Jürgen Neuhaus still exists today see
http://www.barchetta...orsche-917.html

[Gerard Gamand]

C1 is the late frenchman Roger Dubos