30 replies to this topic

[bradbury west]

Unless I have missed it, I am surprised that there has not been a recent thread about the imminent sale of the "Williams" Bugatti, and the potential future of it thereafter.

The recent thread on Transporters showed the ex Poore Dodge truck, and that made me look out my photos of the Ex Ruesch/Poore 8c35 Alfa when it was at Donington, 1990-ish, post-Mayman. It was in the most amazing time-warp condition, literally as last raced by Poore in the early 50s. It simply oozed patina and atmosphere, which cannot be replicated, no matter how skilled the restorer.

The Poore thread shows what happened to that car. I have no doubt that it was restored to a faultless standard, but at what price the originality?

Hubert Fabri, I think, has a Bugatti 35 in a condition reflecting "as found" but no doubt mechanically spot on, and glorious it looks too.

I am not sure what became of the super-original state of the ex Terry Cohn Monza after it was sold.

Many, or indeed most, of the old racecars which emerge after years of nil use are often falling to pieces, or have been adapted for other race uses when they ceased to be competitive first time round, or are simply so far beyond where the newness has started to wear off that a total rebuild, reconstruction, recreation, etc ( we are all familiar with Jenks' terminology and definitions,) becomes the only real alternative to breaking up. Indeed in many cases this recreation etc becomes the only chance for some of us to see certain cars.

The excellent Neil Twyman has shown what can be done with his sympathetic restoration of the ex Indy "Don Lee Special" Alfa P3, unused since 1952 or so, which was at Goodwood a while back, after winning at the Hurlingham Concours, not quite the contradiction which it may sound.

It remains to be seen in what condition the pre-WW2 Mercedes which fetched 4 million+ at Goodwood last year emerges after restoration, since its value must have been based on the supreme originality of the car. However, I would never seek to deny any one with the ability to buy these cars the right to have them restored as they see fit. There are always at least two schools of thought.

TNF's own Doug Nye wrote very powerfully in the March 1990 C&SC about the Poore car scenario, mirroring his views from a previous piece in 1986. In this month's Octane magazine he writes passionately about the options open to whoever buys the "Williams" Bugatti. Does it become just another "Restored" Bugatti? If so in what guise etc? The car's definitive quality must surely be the fact that it is in the state in which you now see it.

Doug points out that for a variety of reasons many historic racing cars are running the risk of being reduced to consumable items, whereas in the past it was only the components themselves which were consumable. This is why real originality is so special.

The critical argument which Doug puts forward remains that "mere money can buy mere condition, but surviving originality, once lost or obscured, is destroyed forever", (copyright DCN and Octane magazine recognised, quoted for educational or explanatory purposes. RL)

To avoid the risk of losing some of Doug's gist or thrust by paraphrasing some/any of the article, I recommend reading the article in Octane.

Perhaps Max Mosley's suggestion that perfect replicas etc should be allowed to compete is not such a bad thing, since , a) the genuine originals remain intact, and b) there are already, allegedly, enough Jenks-defined "recreations/reconstructions/facsimiles" reputed to be racing.

Since no TNFers seemed to get into too much of a lather about the finished restoration of the Poore car, see Dennis Poore thread January 2004, perhaps the end justifying the means, I assume that there will be no outcry if the "Williams" Bugatti ends up as a classic 100 point resto, standing in line with other gleaming Bugattis at Pebble Beach.



What thoughts, TNFers??????

Apologies for going on at some length.


Roger Lund

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by bradbury west


Perhaps Max Mosley's suggestion that perfect replicas etc should be allowed to compete is not such a bad thing, since , a) the genuine originals remain intact, and b) there are already, allegedly, enough Jenks-defined "recreations/reconstructions/facsimiles" reputed to be racing.




Roger Lund

sure its a good idea and a very democratic idea. but the big idea is to start from scratch all over again and to put all the old authenticity certificate release by the FIA or any other organisation to the garbage .vintage cars will have to be inspected again to have there new papers. many if not most of the cars who use to have "legitimate papers "wont pass the test .

[Cirrus]

Perhaps Max Mosley's suggestion that perfect replicas etc should be allowed to compete is not such a bad thing, since , a) the genuine originals remain intact, and b) there are already, allegedly, enough Jenks-defined "recreations/reconstructions/facsimiles" reputed to be racing.

The whole concept of perfect replicas racing is no longer just a suggestion. The current FIA Historical Technical Passport caters for perfect replicas, and subject to acceptance by individual race organisers, permits their use for historic racing. The cost of recreating a Bugatti is well beyond the means of most people, but it is still likely to be much less than the hammer price of an original with the pedigree of the "Williams" car.

The FIA guidelines state that if something was not available, or done, in period, then it should not be done on a replica - This should ensure that a replica ERA will never be competitive! Realistically, there are likely to be few exotic replicas, but even more Lotus 23B's and Brabham BT30's than there are now.

I think that the philosophy of permitting replicas to race is ok, if enhances the grids at historic events. I might feel differently, though, if my original 250LM was punted off by a replica 23......


Edit - Just read Philippe's post. He's quite right. Under the current FIA criteria, many of the currently accepted cars would only earn an HTP. If there was a gap in my hypothetical 250LM's history, then it would just be one replica punted off by another.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Unless I have missed it, I am surprised that there has not been a recent thread about the imminent sale of the "Williams" Bugatti, and the potential future of it thereafter.

I presumed you missed this thread, Roger:-

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=81579

[bradbury west]

David, many thanks for signposting me to that thread. I read the first few when it went up, but not thereafter.

I still come back to my last paragraph and the gist of my thread; what to do with the car when it has been bought?

Having seen the shots of the Bugatti, thanks DCN, I feel sure that the Poore Alfa could rank alongside it for timewarp and originality, as found when removed from Poore's garage, even allowing for the preselect gearbox, but including tools, spares and petrol bowser.

RL

[oldclassiccar]

Roger

I'd be interested to see photos of the Poore Alfa when it was in Donington's museum, and, if possible, any shots that show the transporter. If you can help in any way please let me know, as I'm building up a file of this information.



Rgds
Rick

[RTH]

Doug goes over the car in question in great detail in www.motorfilms.com MFQ volume 13 just out now.

[oldclassiccar]

Ah right, will have a look thanks.

I saw mention of the Bugatti T35B in the details of mfq #13, but the Alfa gets covered too? thanks for the tip-off

Rick

[Doug Nye]

No, the Alfa is not covered as well in MFQ13, only the 'Williams' Bugatti. The Poore car is a case very close to my heart since we pulled it out of its barn in the late '80s, just as parked in effect at the end of 1955. What happened to that car, and what was permitted to happen to its associated transporter and covered trailer is a sad saga - but fortunately the transporter and trailer appear to be in good hands now.

DCN

[Gary C]

I've literally just watched MFQ 13. That Bugatti is simply georgeous - it mustn't be restored. Doug, can't you put a proviso at the sale that whoever buys it MUSTN'T do anything to it???

[oldclassiccar]

Hi Doug

Ah, thanks the clarifying that, yes I remember you telling me about when you unearthed the car and the team effects from its long time home. Did you ever turn up the photos you mentioned to me a while back of this adventure?

The Dodge is tucked away in my garage here at home now, with the trailer. Up til recently it had always been in dry storage until such time as I could actually have it at home to work on. We moved house late in '04, the main requirement being that there was a suitably large garage to house the transporter (being reliant on others for dry storage was becoming a bit of a headache!!).

Work is progressing slowly but steadily. I recently got the front wings back from a local (retired) panelbeater, he's done a top job on them, especially given the bashed up state that they were in.

Rgds
Rick.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Gary C
I've literally just watched MFQ 13. That Bugatti is simply georgeous - it mustn't be restored. Doug, can't you put a proviso at the sale that whoever buys it MUSTN'T do anything to it???

I must find time to catch up on my MFQ viewing.

There is one problem with all this talk about the Bug's originality - it was green when it won at Monaco! There are plenty of blue Bugs (and a lot of very old looking ones as well), it would be a refreshing change to have something other than a blue Bug and this one should be green.

Of course changing the colour would destroy many years of patina, but if you see the maroon type 43 that Tim Dutton just refreshed it looks very old despite having had a lot of paint replaced.

I think a new owner should be allowed to paint it the original colour - but he could do so in a way that it still looks old (as they Grist does with pre-war Alfas).

[Doug Nye]

Green was its second colour, not the original, which was the works' rendition of French racing blue. In the MFQ13 piece I ask the question "original, yes, but original to when???". 'Surviving originality' should perhaps be better specified as 'literal originality' or 'effective originality'. Literal originality can obviously mean just one thing, surviving finish being that applied when the artefact was brand, spanking new. Effective originality arguably means surviving in the general order in which it last did anything at all signiifcant, so long as it was a long time ago!

When what you see today was last assembled/produced/painted in excess of 50 years ago I believe one can stretch the elastic a little bit...as long a one does not stretch it too much...it's purely a matter of opinion, and of trust. And no, I do NOT mean the Tony Blair brand of "yah, you can trust what I say, because I'm a straight-up kinda guy...". I mean critical trust - which itself means either that you accept use of this rather misused 'original' term (on the basis of "Yeah, I understand what you mean") or you don't. As always, the choice is entirely the beholder's.

DCN

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Green was its second colour, not the original, which was the works' rendition of French racing blue. In the MFQ13 piece I ask the question "original, yes, but original to when???". 'Surviving originality' should perhaps be better specified as 'literal originality' or 'effective originality'. Literal originality can obviously mean just one thing, surviving finish being that applied when the artefact was brand, spanking new. Effective originality arguably means surviving in the general order in which it last did anything at all signiifcant, so long as it was a long time ago!

When what you see today was last assembled/produced/painted in excess of 50 years ago I believe one can stretch the elastic a little bit...as long a one does not stretch it too much...it's purely a matter of opinion, and of trust. And no, I do NOT mean the Tony Blair brand of "yah, you can trust what I say, because I'm a straight-up kinda guy...". I mean critical trust - which itself means either that you accept use of this rather misused 'original' term (on the basis of "Yeah, I understand what you mean") or you don't. As always, the choice is entirely the beholder's.

DCN

As usual a far more reasoned response than my own.
Sounds like your MFQ article made the same point (only a small backlog of 30 dvds to plough through! And for some reason the girlfriend always pulls faces when I suggest watching MFQ!!).....

The finish in question is original to a specific point in the car's history - and that time is sufficiently far away it is probably worth preserving (except I hate blue Bugattis - a result of seeing the Schlumph collection at a very young impressionable age!!).
(Of course the car wasn't quite so tatty when this finish was applied, it has deteriorated since then, so it does not totally reflect the car's condition when it was last used in anger).

The Bug's main claim to fame is from when it won Monaco, when it was green - but the other talking point is its 'originality', which it isn't in terms of the Monaco result (e.g. it is not the totally original Monaco winning car as has been suggested - at least in literal terms).

Another problem comes when a new owner wants to use the car, Bugattis continually self destruct (too many square pegs in round holes!) so it wouldn't be possible to keep all of the mechanical components and use the car as it was intended.
But that can be done in such a way that it doesn't look to have been rebuilt if that is the owner's desire.

Given it hasn't been touched for a long time there is certainly plenty of reason to leave it alone where possible - if someone wants a bright shiny car, that looks like it did when it left the Bugatti factory, they have plenty of choice. In fact you could buy a gridful of perfect original type 'replicas' (with varying qtys of Molsheim bits) for the estimated value of this car.

I just wish I could afford to have to decide what to do with it!

[RTH]

Motor Sport this month quotes the auctioneer's guide price pre sale as £2.25 million it had been on display in the late Prince Rainier's museum in Monaco for the past decade - September 16th at Goodwood if you are interested !

[David Beard]

Looking at the photos in the DCN thread, it is quite obvious that the car is a fake. I know this because in Robert Ryan's "Early one morning" it says quite clearly that the Williams car had 16 cylinders....

;)

[Doug Nye]

Pay no attention to that loony estimate - auctioneers, publicists and journalists eh, Gawd Almighty!

DCN

[ian senior]

A nice article on the Bugatti in the motoring supoplement of "The Independent" today. Might not tell us anything new, but it's good to see this kind of thing getting a wider audience.

[RTH]

Did anyone attend the auction or know for sure how much the Ex- Williams Bugatti 35B made including Buyers premium? Who it sold to ? Is it going to stay in England? Will it just be preserved in its present condition?

In Bill Boddy's section of the magazine he says that after winning the 4hr Monaco GP in 1929 at an average speed of 49 mph, the car spent the war years in Friderich's Nice showrooms before it was sold to a Vars wine merchant.

In 1950 he was obliged to sell it to a young enthusiast for 120 francs ( £12, yes twelve pounds ! ) and he kept it for the next 55 years.

May be this is a simplification of the story it does'nt fit exactly with other reports I have read that the current owner now in his mid eighties was in fact an ex Bugatti mechanic and bought the car in a heavily crashed state and rebuilt it very inexpensively using all genuine new and used parts using his contacts and experience of the marque.

From Doug's excavations on MFQ 13 we could see with our own eyes it has been sprayed with at least 4 different colours/shades in its life, that is presuming it hasn't been stripped to bare metal , presuming the green paint revealed was the coat it finished the '29 race in ?

Still a bit more to find out to get the definitive story ? I wonder if the Gentleman who has just sold it after all this time would tell his whole story on camera before it is all too late ?

It is fascinating , can't imagine there is another one in continuous ownership for more than 55 years now .

With the new VW owned Bugatti company now back in a factory in Molsheim and just about to launch the much vaunted Bugatti Veyron EB 16.4 987 BHP W16 4 turbochargers 253 MPH 0-62mph in 2.5 seconds 4 wheel drive, sportscar costing £700,000 with 41 sales paid for already , and a run of 300 examples planned.

Maybe former investment banker Thomas Bscher head of Bugatti since 2003 would have been a bidder ? or Former VW chairman Ferdinand Piech whos brainchild this whole revival of the marque project has been, - at mammoth cost to the German car maker . Maybe it will be a secret and we will never know , Will it just appear on show somewhere ?

[David McKinney]

The Williams Bugatti failed to make its reserve

[RTH]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The Williams Bugatti failed to make its reserve

Any clue what the reserve was David , and at what sum did the bidding run out of steam ?

Hard to imagine there will be a better forum than Goodwood to get an even higher price , only maybe Monaco next May. Given the circumstances that's surprising the owner let it reach a market value and let it go .

[David McKinney]

Sorry, I wasn't at the sale, so can't answer the question
In any case, reserves are rarely disclosed, even after an auction
But bidding clearly didn't reach the vendor's idea of the car's market value

[RTH]

I'm told this evening someone who was at the sale reported bidding went up to £1.8M and the hall was left with the impression at least that it had been sold - so still something of a mystery.

[Stuart_Forrest]

I was at the sale, and the hammer did indeed go down at £1.8m. Sadly the car didn't sell, but on the Goodwood website there is a story saying that the car is expected to sell by private treaty shortly. That certainly concurs with the view of most people that I spoke to from the trade over the weekend, and it isn't unusual for cars at the very top end of the market.

Whilst not close to the Bugatti in terms of orginality (or desirability in my view!), the same thing happened with some of the big cars in Monterey this year. It is a very interesting period at the very top end of the market at the moment.

[David M. Kane]

Please be patient with me on this as I know nothing at all about Bugettis, but there were quiet a few at Road America this past weekend at the VSCDA meet. One was referred to as "the Mona Lisa of Bugettis". Apparently there are only two of this model, the other one is owned by Ralph Lauren. It supposedly is worth $15M US. I was told it took best in class or show at Pebble Beach.
Regardless, it was unlike any vehicle I have ever seen. I suspect there were at least 35 Bugetti on display, at least 5 were in the amazing category.

[Gary C]

'at least 5 were in the amazing category.'

David, I bet NONE of them were anything like the condition of the 'Williams' car - amazing, lovely stuff. Buy yourself a copy of MFQ 13 and find out!

[David Beard]

The old girl looks fine in unrestored condition to me....;)

[Gary C]

it does to me, too!

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by David Beard
The old girl looks fine in unrestored condition to me....;)

Imagine what Ralph Lauren could do to it! (ducks for cover)

[oldclassiccar]

>The old girl looks fine in unrestored condition to me....

thats no way to speak about the lady looking on..

[Macca]

I know which of these two I prefer...............and it's not the over-restored one.


Paul M