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1939 European Championship


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#451 Brun

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 12:10

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


Did you have to go through the whole "check if this guy isn't a na2i before we let him in" check? Or were you just being polite?

BTW, any latest news on a certain ageing mechanic you were planning to see?;)

And shall I just order a second badge with Barry for you?


No checks at all! Just politeness. And no, haven't had any luck with the mechanic : but I'll try and ring him again when I'm in the area.

I just sent Barry a pm, but if you could order one for me, that would be great!

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#452 Racer.Demon

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 15:01

Brun just sent me a text message that stated that he was greeted by the courteous folk at the Bundesarchiv, all very much willing to help. Probably a mission that brought some excitement to their day too!

He has now been loaded with stacks of dossiers that he will be going through tomorrow, so keep your fingers crossed on something being in there.

#453 Racer.Demon

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 15:47

Helped by the library's motoring expert Brun ploughed through 17 of the thickest possible dossiers to find:

(almost) nothing... : :|

First of all, the dossiers get a lot thinner towards 1938. After that there are huge gaps. Then, there are almost no references to motor racing while the strangest thing is that the archives are loaded with motorbike stuff - to the tiniest detail.

So why have large parts gone missing? Immediately after the war all of the archives were confiscated by the Americans and taken back to Washington DC, where they were microfilmed. Later, the archives were returned, but not all of it. Possibly, parts still remain in the US. This would mean that our last chance rests upon the shoulders of a German-speaking US citizen (can't think of anyone right now :lol: ) who could go to Washington DC and trace back what was left behind in the States.

What we do know is that the information we are after is now certain not to be found in the whole of Germany. The Bundesarchiv holds all combined archives of the country. If anything interesting is found in a local library it is immediately passed on to the Bundesarchiv in a typically German watertight procedure.

Brun found one very interesting tidbit - a complete account of all AU 3-litre racing engines built from 1938. The precise count, engines codes, specs - everything. All listed in a studious scrutineering report on '38 and '39 engines. But that's another story...

#454 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 21:26

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
...So why have large parts gone missing? Immediately after the war all of the archives were confiscated by the Americans and taken back to Washington DC, where they were microfilmed. Later, the archives were returned, but not all of it. Possibly, parts still remain in the US. This would mean that our last chance rests upon the shoulders of a German-speaking US citizen (can't think of anyone right now :lol: ) who could go to Washington DC and trace back what was left behind in the States....

This would be a great opportunity for the esteemed Col. Don Capps, Sir! Locating the files or microfilms of those lost documents would be part 1 of the research. I think Don Capps to be the most highly qualified person to accomplish that. I live 12 jet hours away from the location and am presently preparing for visits in three different libraries during July and August: München, Linz and Basel. :D

You can still look through those German newspapers & magazines I had mentioned, something not yet done. ... and what happened to the ONS files in the Bundesarchiv? Are they also lost? :confused:

Regarding the missing files, look up in the dictionary: Spurenverwischung and Spurensicherung. Just a thought. ;)

#455 Don Capps

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 23:08

Believe it or not, when we embarked upon this quest some years ago, I did make some very pointed inquiries to NARA concerning this very issue. I got very mixed and contradictory answers at the time. What seemed to be the one that was the loudest and the clearest was, "We ain't got yer stinkin' papers..." I did do some more digging, but got nowhere before I had to pull up stakes to take a command.

Give me some specifics -- especially what the Bundesarchiv says is "missing" and never returned -- and I will once more sally forth into the fray. I have to emphasize the point of specifics since I now realize that perhaps I was not asking the "right" questions or looking in the "right" places. The more I have as to what we are REALLY looking for, the better.

Besides, I have to see about bugging the folks at the Smithsonian again about some research I want to do there and NARA is due a visit anyway.

#456 Brun

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:21

Well then, like Mattijs said: little news… so let me just give you all a long recap of last days’ events.

The Bundesarchiv isn’t what you’d expect from an archive. It’s not a large classical building in the city, but a former military compound in one of the suburbs. Haven’t figured out if it used to be East- or West-Berlin. There are several military-style buildings scattered amongst the threes. It’s dead quiet here, you only hear the birds singing when walking from the gate to the visitor’s area. Yet this tranquil area houses a major part of Nazi-Germany’s paper legacy. Somehow, it takes no effort to imagine batallions of soldiers marching across the tarmac roads.

My notebook is surrounded by stacks and stacks of files. I really must say a big thank you to Mr. Ulrich Roeske. He has been my e-mail contact in the Bundesarchiv and immediately came down from his office when he heard I was here to help me out. Roeske has been working at the Bundesarchiv for a whopping 41 years now and has been both incredibly helpful and competent. He’s a historian working on the Verkehrswesen-part of the archives, which stands for ‘transport’ in the broadest sense. Not only did he help me select the best sources from the index, he also pointed me into directions I’d never think of myself. Private archives from the Deutsche Bank, for example. Turns out that major banks, like many other large corporations, have been keeping their own archives for decades. Not just core-business financial stuff, mind you, but information on almost all aspects of trade, culture and society, including motoring. Too bad it didn’t come up with anything of interest in this particular case.

The NSKK paper legacy is weird, to say the least. The files aren’t all that big, you could read through all available files in a couple of days. I selected 17 of them, the rest being ruled out by Roeske and myself (mostly because they were from other periods, like 1936). There are gaps big enough to drive a freight train through. Of course these gaps cover almost everything related to autoracing and there is little left after 1940. Strangely enough, there are heaps and stacks and loads of documents on motorcycle racing and trivialities like autoclub member lists and the situation in fuel supply and mechanic service in Swampville, Bavaria.

To illustrate this: I’ve seen a number of letters from the NSKK in the Auto Union archives, like the ones from Korpsführer Hühnlein. There are NO copies of these anywhere in the Bundesarchiv. Which means there are NO copies left anywhere in Germany.

Roeske already warned me about these gaps, but he has no idea where the missing files went. What we do know: a large part of these archives were taken to Washington by the US after the war. They copied everything and sent the files back to Germany. So either the Russians beat the Americans to it and took away everything related to pre-war racing, which isn’t very likely – it would have taken them weeks to sift through all the material and take away exactly that stuff. Or all this was kept in a separate archive, which is a little less unlikely since what’s left of the ONS files also make a separate subpart of the (old) index. It may have been destroyed in bombing raids on Berlin. Or the US and UK military experts kept all this interesting stuff to themselves, sending only the leftovers back to Germany. Not impossible too – there was growing interest in the technical achievements of Mercedes and Auto Union.

Bottom line – can something be found to corroborate Hühnleins decision on the 1939 EC? Perhaps. Like I said: there may be stuff left in the Washington National Archives, leaving a nice task for those on TNF who both can spare the time to search through it and speak German well enough to read the files. Either that or something comes out of the new digitized search engine of the Bundesarchiv which they’ll install soon. But I doubt it, since I had Mr. Roeske’s expertise on standby, enabling a fast, sleek, clean and thorough search through all files that might contain something.

Oh dear, I hear you say, haven’t you found anything, Brun? I have! Tucked away in two files, I found test reports on the racing engines used by (amongst others) Auto Union. Turns out the NSKK officials visited BMW, Mercedes and Auto Union to measure their engines and certify them for the applicable formulas. That means I now have a complete overview of the Auto Union 3-litre V12 power plants that were allowed to be used in their racing cars during the 1938 and 1939 season. Specifications, numbers built/used, engine codes (1939 only) and even the placing of NSKK-markings. I’ll post this stuff in a separate thread soon.

And just to reward myself, I took a large detour straight through rush-hour Berlin, with a city map on my lap and another map on the steering wheel, frantically trying to find my way to the nearby Avus. Finally I made it to the A100 city highway. Coming from there, the exit ramp to the A115 (the Avus) leads straight over/through a leftover part of the northern embankment. The old Audi felt right at home here, roaring past the tower and grandstands, then braking hard to keep to the 80 km/h speedlimit (blasphemy, I say, sheer blasphemy to allow traffic jams and speedlimits on the Avus!) and then rode it all the way past the former southern U-turn. Ha, that did feel good!
:cool:

#457 Brun

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:31

Ah, I forgot to mention something important: the NSKK had this monthly or bimonthly magazine, Deutsche Kraftfahr. It also featured stories on racing events. In the index, I came across it, so I immediately ordered the file. Turns out it just held letters to the editor :evil: with people complaining about errors in last week's DKW test :mad:

Anyway, the magazine appears to have been quite popular. So it might be that somewhere else there still are issues lying about. Don't know where to start, but who knows - maybe we shouldn't give up hope...

#458 Holger Merten

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:34

Brun, well done. I know about those problems with finding something in the Bundesarchiv. That's why we made the trip to Washington in the early 90s, when we wrote the history of Audi.

But so you discovered Berlin and the Avus. Thank you Brun.

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#459 Brun

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:55

Well Holger, as I understood it, the Bundesarchiv has been working on its indexes for the past decade and should now hold almost everything there is to find on subjects like these in Germany. Roeske told me that when a company or city 'rediscovers' a lost archive, they automatically send it to Berlin. He was quite sure that the Bundesarchiv now holds or at least knows and indexes all Nazi- and DDR-sources on public and governmental issues. In other words: if it's not there, there's little hope of finding it anywhere else in Germany.

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#460 Holger Merten

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:10

Originally posted by Brun
Well In other words: if it's not there, there's little hope of finding it anywhere else in Germany.


I think you are completly right. Shit.

But as you have seen, you got some news about the Typ E (which you never found in Chemnitz). And you found files in Chemnitz you didn't find in Berlin. May the ADAC archiv could help.

#461 Brun

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:10

Hans, I just read your question.

As to newspapers and magazines: I think we'd just have to search the newspaper archives themselves.

The ONS files are part of the NSKK files, as the ONS was the responsibility of the NSKK. Of course I searched all of them, but found nothing.

#462 Brun

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 11:13

Well Holger, at least we now know that there are no public German records on these subjects. What's left are private archives and those of newspapers. Like you said: most discoveries came out of those.

#463 Brun

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 09:07

Yesterday, while waiting for my girlfriend in the university library, I tried one of the search terminals there. Turns out these databases are interconnected through Germany. Guess what? There are some libraries which still carry 'Deutsche Kraftfahr'. Perhaps I'll one day order some issues. But I've also found that the magazine ceased to exist after June 1938... damn :|

#464 David J Jones

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 09:59

Brun

Perhaps the reason for the holes in the NSKK files is due to the fact that these files were used in the Nuremburg Judgements in 1945/6. I have found reference to Huhnlein in the Judgements which is how I came across the files in Washington.

Briefly the Nuremburg Judgement determined the NSKK had nothing to answer for due to the independance status it had through its chief - Huhnlein.

Perhaps the files were retained by the Nuremburg Court as evidence and maybe were never returned by the Allies

#465 VAR1016

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:06

Originally posted by David J Jones

Briefly the Nuremburg Judgement determined the NSKK had nothing to answer for due to the independance status it had through its chief - Huhnlein.


As a matter of interest, what became of Huhnlein?

PdeRL

#466 Holger Merten

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:45

Hühnlein died in 1942.
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#467 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:47

Originally posted by Brun
Yesterday, while waiting for my girlfriend in the university library, I tried one of the search terminals there. Turns out these databases are interconnected through Germany. Guess what? There are some libraries which still carry 'Deutsche Kraftfahr'. Perhaps I'll one day order some issues. But I've also found that the magazine ceased to exist after June 1938... damn :|


Errr -- WRONG!!! :) (I'm pleased to say!)

I've been trying to sort this out over the past couple of days - it appears there were two magazines with almost identical titles: Deutsche Kraftfahr and Deutsche Kraftfahrt. Deutsche Kraftfahr's full title is "Deutsche Kraftfahr-Forschung" and as far as I can tell it seems to be a technical magazine for engineers, published by a company called VDI Verlag of Berlin and continuing at least until 1940.

The NSKK magazine is Deutsche Kraftfahrt, published by Selbstverlag of Hannover - there are currently a few odd copies for sale on the net, the going rate being about 15 Euros per issue. The latest copy I've seen for sale dates from August 1944. Most of the pre-war ones I've found have mentions of racing in the contents lists: I have also located bound volumes of 1939 and 1940 for sale - at 400 Euros each!

On the subject of magazines, Brun and Holger - have either of you investigated "Motor Kritik"? Beaulieu have some and in one I saw what looked like a very informative article about a visit to Auto Union.

#468 Holger Merten

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 12:45

Richard it's not so easy to find such issues here in switzerland. I'm not often in Germany (2 times a year for some days). All I can find is in those archivs in switzerland.

And I must say, that I was never interested in those propaganda magazines. I think we wouldn't find more there. It would be better, to find original files to find the thruth, cause Motor Kritik and the other magazines printed only the official Hühnlein-propaganda.

#469 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 13:04

Holger - perhaps I didn't make myself clear: Motor Kritik is actually a technical publication, certainly not for the layman. The text was well beyond my limited German, but IIRC there were some technical drawings, pictures taken inside the AU racing shops etc. It would be no use re the 1939 EC, but might have some interesting pieces re other AU and Mercedes subjects, propaganda or not.

And I take your point about propaganda and original sources, but if the propaganda quotes the (missing) original sources .... :) :smoking:

#470 VAR1016

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 13:49

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Hühnlein died in 1942.
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Thanks Holger :smoking:

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#471 Brun

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 19:11

A very loud and sincere F**K!! :mad:

I've just tried the brand new Bundesarchiv search engine that Mr. Roeske suggested to me. And as he already suspected, it immediately came up with more files. There's a complete set of NSKK titles that I never even saw when I was there. If I understand the results correctly, this part of the archives also holds copies of Deutsche Kraftfahrt.

Proves you just can't spend enough time searching in old archives. Seems like a second visit may be in order... ah well :rolleyes: I'm sure I can spare another couple of days this summer.

In the meantime, I've mailed them about this set of files and asked if it indeed is another set or just duplicates... keep y'all posted.

#472 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 00:30

Things like these happen. That's how we gain experience and become smarter with time. ;)

#473 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 03:35

I have been following this thread, and the Müller thread for a bit now. I wanted to extend my sincere thanks to all of you for allowing me to share in reading the evolution of your research, and for extending my knowledge of this period through your efforts and results.

For me, reading over your shoulders as it were, the singular accomplishment of this dedicated group is the collaboration between individuals located across the globe in revealing new information on a very obscure subject. Beyond the final facts unearthed, the true accomplishment will have been in the "doing ".

Again, my thanks to each of you.

#474 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 09:22

You're welcome, Dennis.
Can't speak for the rest of us, but it really is a lot of fun, unearthing new facts from old archives and immediately reporting about them on TNF. Sometimes this happens even while I'm still browsing through the old files, through Racer.demon by sms messages.

As for that other thread, the infamous 1.5 Litre Auto Union / Sokol: there's more on that one too, in the next weeks...

#475 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 09:49

Since Hans came up with this question about the 1939 EC, I think this thread is one of the most intensive investigated ones on TNF. (Please correct me TNF fellows, if I'm not correct.)
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And thanks to a lot of people on TNF we found out a lot more thanwhat's written in the PR-brochures of Mercedes Benz (and Audi).
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#476 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 13:11

Originally posted by Brun
As for that other thread, the infamous 1.5 Litre Auto Union / Sokol: there's more on that one too, in the next weeks...

One of my favorite other threads on TNF. I'm really looking forward to hearing more on the Sokol.

#477 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 13:45

Denis, I think, you have to delete some posts. Or are you working for your free atlas_account?Posted Image

#478 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 13:56

Repetition for emphasis...

An old ploy for public speaking.

#479 Dennis Hockenbury

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 14:08

Grrrrrr. Yes there are challenging moments with technology at times. But I like the post count idea Holger. :rotfl:

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#480 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 14:11

So, try harder, from your profile there are 885 posts, you have to repeat.

And this one counts for me. :rotfl:

#481 Option1

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 14:21

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
I have been following this thread, and the Müller thread for a bit now. I wanted to extend my sincere thanks to all of you for allowing me to share in reading the evolution of your research, and for extending my knowledge of this period through your efforts and results.

For me, reading over your shoulders as it were, the singular accomplishment of this dedicated group is the collaboration between individuals located across the globe in revealing new information on a very obscure subject. Beyond the final facts unearthed, the true accomplishment will have been in the "doing ".

Again, my thanks to each of you.

:up: :up: Dennis said it so very well. This is an extremely fascinating thread to me. Thank you guys for putting so much effort into this.

Neil

#482 Brun

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 16:51

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
One of my favorite other threads on TNF. I'm really looking forward to hearing more on the Sokol.


Be sure to keep an eye on that thread. Holger has found one of the last people alive to know about that car. It's one of the guys who helped to build it. And I've just managed to get him on the phone and will be paying a long visit next monday... YEAH Posted Image

#483 Holger Merten

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Posted 01 July 2003 - 19:56

Great Brun, this guy has so much knowledge, don't forget, to ask him ALL THE QUESTIONS, we are interested in. And copy his manuscript about those early days after WW2! If necessary, I'll mail you the title of his mansucript? COPY PASTE!

#484 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 12:45

Alessandro Silva has kindly laid siege to the French Bibliotheque Nationale and exhumed a few short pieces from l'Auto concerning the 1939 EC. I'm afraid it adds nothing to our knowledge of what was going on, but does provide a few pointers as to how much (or little) interest there was in this in France!

Just like all the other magazines we have found so far l'Auto makes no mention of the Championship until after the German GP - it becomes more and more apparent that someone (Mercedes Benz IMO) initiated some sort of publicity drive at the German race to promote the Langlois/French Championship system of scoring. The familiar scoring list appears again in the issue of l'Auto dated July 24th 1939, the day after the German GP: Muller 17, Lang/Caracciola 12, Meier/Sommer 8, von Brauchitsch/Hasse 7. This was reproduced without comment or explanation, presumably leaving anyone who wanted to know what was going on to figure it out for themselves! However, this was published more than a week earlier than the table giving the same scores in Automobil-Revue, which was our previous earliest sighting.

On August 2nd, l'Auto published, again without explanation or even a mention of the EC, a pen-portrait of Müller, written by Maurice Henry: at this point, of course, Müller was leading the championship under both points methods. Like most commentators, Henry must have assumed he was a shoo-in for the title.

After the Swiss GP, l'Auto's report, published on August 21st was headlined:

Lang leads from start to finish and also for the title of European Champion

Lang 22, Muller 21, Caracciola 18.

Lang will be European Champion providing
1) the Italian Grand Prix is cancelled, which would make the Swiss Grand Prix the last of the season.
2) the points system is the same as for the French National Championship, which we will not know officially until October.

After that, of course, nothing.

#485 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 21:16

Thanks Richard and Alessandro.

I find these discoveries very interesting. It confirms my belief that the European Championship was really of no interest in France because they had no serious contender in Dreyfus. The same applies for Italy, I assume, but we have not yet heard what was written in the Italian magazines about this topic.

#486 Brun

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 13:10

Just got word from the Bundesarchiv. As for the files that I didn't check on my last visit: they contain mostly official documents. Here's what the catalogue says about those files:

Papers/books:
Der NSKK-Mann (1938, 1939)
Schriften der Hochschule für Politik / 2 - Das NSKK. - Bd. 34 (1939)

Magazines:
Deutsche Kraftfahrt (1934 E, 1935-1938, 1940 E, 1941 L, 1942 E, 1944 E)
Führerbefehl (1934-1944 L)
Korpsbefehl (1934-1938 L, 1942 E)
Korpsführer-Befehl (1934-1944)
Kraftfahrtechnische Mitteilungen (1943 E, 1944 E)
Mitteilungen der Obersten Nationalen Sportbehörde für die Deutsche Kraftfahrt - [O.N.S] (1936 E, 1937 L)
Mitteilungsblatt des NSKK (1939-1944)
Mitteilungsblatt für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahrkorps und die Motorstürme der SA und SS (1931 E)
Stabsbefehl (1934-1936 L)
Verordnungsblatt der Korpsführung (1934-1937, 1938 L, 1939 L)

So, there still are some interesting sources to check for 1939 and 1940. Although I have my doubts about finding an ONS points system for 1939, there still is hope!

Also, there's another interesting feature. The archive holds the former 'Berlin Document Center' with a lot of material on persons. I am allowed to file a request with names, surnames, dates of birth, occupation and possibly additional information. If I do this 4 to 6 weeks in advance, i.e. before visiting the Bundesarchiv again, the staff there will sort out all they have on these persons. To keep things efficient, I'd suggest limiting it to three people: Hühnlein, Müller and Lang.

What do you think?

#487 Holger Merten

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 13:20

Another step forrward Brun.

What's about three other persons: Feuereissen, Neubauer and Eberan. May you got some more input?

#488 Brun

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 13:33

Well, they didn't limit the number of persons I may ask about. But I don't want to push my luck, they've already been extremely helpful over there, without charging a cent. So that's why I thought it better to focus on those issues/persons we know less about.

#489 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 20:28

Brun - Good job so far! Please don't give up yet.

Is it conceivably possible that memos or letters were sent from the NSKK to Neubauer and Feuereisen explaining the calculations how Lang ended up with 23 points?

If that is so, then Neubauer and Feuereisen are potentially more important names than Müller or Lang since we know the argument rested between Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union.

#490 fines

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 12:08

Sorry to play the avvocato del diabolo again, but is this possibly not a bit of an overkill to find out about (possibly/probably) a simple typo?;)

Seriously though, Brun has done a brilliant job here - way to go!

#491 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 15:21

Seriously though, Brun has done a brilliant job here - way to go! [/B]


YES.


Today I checked all issues of the 1939 Automobil Revue again sentence by sentence to find out, what could be the reason for this result if the EC.

And I came to the point, that Brun's way is the best one in his Berlin files. I will asked once again Prof. Kirchberg, if he knows something about the real document for an result for a 1939 EC.

#492 Brun

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 15:21

Fines: yes, you're right, it is :lol: I mean: driving so many kilometres and spending so much money worldwide just to find out about a 60-year old score system... We're all nerds :p but it is fun and that's what counts.

#493 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 17:33

BRAIN RUNS ON FUN!

#494 Don Capps

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 19:03

Whatever the destination of all this proves to be, the journey itself has proved to be a great experience. For that reason alone, this "nosing around" is already a success in my view.

#495 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 20:33

Don, my words, in this thread. I think we did a lot and we found out a lot. A lot more than what is written down in published books (not in such files, Brun is looking for). :wave:

#496 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 00:49

Fines - don't forget that my original question from about 3 years ago has not yet been answered with proof. We have worked out various calculations to arrive at 23 points and your theory that the 23 points given to Lang by the NSKK/ONS is a typing/printing error is just one of the possibilities but nothing else. Since these 23 points appeared in two different contemporary publications, it should not simply be ignored. We should search for additional primary sources with references to these 23 points until we discover either additional information or can prove that the 23 is an error, as you have suggested.

Brun - you are doing just the right thing, pursuing all avenues available to you. Whether this is "brilliant" as has been described, I am not sure, but I know that it is damned good work, you are doing. And I want to thank you for doing your research on this topic and pursuing these new sources. I also follow your successes and disappointments with great interest and would like to assist on location because it is this kind of work I like doing. At one time it seemed that I was the only guy looking into this topic, the other one was Chris Nixon and I think he did not look good enough. I know how hard it is at times to do this kind of work, how much time is spent, and how much money goes down the drain while doing so. I have done it for years and if I find a chance on my upcoming trip to libraries in Linz (Austria), Basel (Switzerland) and of course München (Germany), I will do so but I cannot look for it specifically at this trip. Thinking about the money I have spent on this, it is absolutely crazy and I should instead have gone deep-see fishing at the Kona Coast of Hawai'i to beat the Blue Marlin record.

Holger - it is of course a good idea to contact Dr. Kirchberg. With all due respect to his status and various accomplishments, I do not expect anything new from his side. Had he found something, I am sure we would have known about it already. The same applies to the administrators of the Mercedes-Benz Archiv. First, it should be quite obvious to all parties involved here that they (M.-B.) have nothing to gain, would they release for example detailed information like the NSKK/ONS point score regarding the 1939 European Championship. For that reason alone, I would not go and ask the Stuttgart people. They would not tell you, even if they had this information in their Neubauer notes. Let’s not fool ourselves: Neubauer and Feuereisen knew about the NSKK/ONS point score in 1939. Why would Hühnlein have released the score just for the Völkischer Beobachter and ignore these two important ONS members?

#497 David J Jones

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 08:33

Brun

Have you located those records you were looking for in the NSKK files now?

I am still looking around in the hope if they aren't there they might have been taken to the documentation used in the pre-trial assessments before the Nuremburg Trials.

Last mention I have turned up on Huhnlein he was involved in the plannig for Operation Barbarossa in 40/41. Got a nice precis from our Public Records Office in the UK of his career and a copy of his obit and a translation - not sure if this came from MI5 or MI6

I believe we need to keep thinking up places where records concerning this decision might be - eventualy we just might find it.

Joke - maybe it is all hidden in our Royal Archives!

Or maybe it was just a private decision between M-B and AU?

#498 fines

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 20:59

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Fines - don't forget that my original question from about 3 years ago has not yet been answered with proof. We have worked out various calculations to arrive at 23 points and your theory that the 23 points given to Lang by the NSKK/ONS is a typing/printing error is just one of the possibilities but nothing else. Since these 23 points appeared in two different contemporary publications, it should not simply be ignored. We should search for additional primary sources with references to these 23 points until we discover either additional information or can prove that the 23 is an error, as you have suggested.

Hans, of course you're right, there's no proof (yet?)! You should know by now that I'm not that interested in championship results, at least not beyond a certain [I was tempted to say "sane"... :p] curiosity. As far as I am concerned, the thing is settled until some earthshaking news surface - which is bound to happen anyway if you guys continue your zeal for research!;)

#499 Reinhard Windeler

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:09

It's more than 16 years now that I came across the Müller/Lang mystery but only recently I discovered this forum, and I do appreciate that you folks have cleared the case almost totally.

Because of the criticism Chris Nixon got (e.g. in Richard Armstrong's article at 8w.forix.com/ec1939/html) I would like to direct your attention to his letter to "Autosport" published in the 14 May 1987 issue (p. 12) answering a letter from - uhmm - a certain Reinhard Windeler (Autosport, 30 April 1987, p. 14). It - in extracts - reads as follows: "Hermann Lang has always rightly been accepted as European Champion for that year, and this, together with his battle with Rudolf Caracciola in the last Grande Epreuve of the season, obscured my view of Müller's claim to the title. This was my mistake, for a closer look at the results of the four Grandes Epreuves of 1939 clearly shows that Müller finished with one point fewer than Lang!"

This is - up to my knowledge - the first time that the possibility of Müller being the rightful winner of the 1939 championship was printed publicly. Therefore I am a bit surprised that Paul Sheldon insisted on becoming the first one "to print this injustice" (post # 249). I also have to admit that I was a bit disappointed when I found out that Paul Sheldon in no way referred to the 1987 "Autosport" correspondence when in 1993 he published vol. 4 of his "Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing". But that is only a minor personal offence from nearly 10 years ago.

After having read this thread - I spent more than 4 hours on that (and that is with quickly skimming parts of the posts where members apparently deviated!) - what amazes me most is the fact that the peculiarities concerning the points system for 1939 were so openly discussed in Swiss magazine "Automobil Revue", but for more than 60 years no one paid attention to it!

One would expect that at least Adriano Cimarosti should have read these articles, because he is a Swiss resident and not only cites "Automobil Revue" in the bibliography of his classic book "Autorennsport" (later "Autorennen", i.e. "The Complete History of Grand Prix Motor Racing") but in 1961 he joined the Editorial staff of that magazine. In his book, instead, he gives the impression that Lang's wins at the Pau Grand Prix, the Eifelrennen and at Rio - of all places - had something to do with him being declared European Champion 1939. Confusion caused, opportunity missed, I would say.

Finally, for those who are interested in the way Alfred Neubauer recalled the 1939 Swiss Grand Prix, I would like to point out that René Häfeli's 1969 book "Verstummte Motoren - Die Geschichte des Schweizer Grand Prix" contains a more detailed account from an interview of the author with the "Rennleiter" (p. 120). Needless to say that there is no reference to the fact that the race was a championship decider nor any serious mention of Müller's participation at all.

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#500 Holger Merten

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 09:20

Welcome Reinhard, and thanks a lot for those interesting news some of us are waiting for. So we hope you'll help us in this thread and in some others to find out more about mystery of motorsports. Unfortunetly I will leave my computer for a week to give my new Audi quattro a long ride to the coasts of Italy. But I'm sure, when I'll be back, this thread will have some additional posts.