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1939 European Championship


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#501 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 12:16

Reinhard – Welcome to TNF. While in Bern during December 2000, I did talk with Adriano Cimarosti about the 1939 Championship and was surprised to learn that he was not aware of an existing controversy. I then showed him the copies I had just received about the 1939 A.R. articles and then he knew.

Holger – I am happy that you found your Quattro. What color? Watch out when you come to Italy at the customs border. There could be a Fiat Uno with the wrong amount of people in it. ;)

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#502 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 13:08

Reinhard - let me add to the welcome! Good timing, if I may say so and thanks for the precise references to the Autosport correspondence, which I was unaware of :blush: I'm heading for Beaulieu this week, so I can review that material immediately and will then be meeting up with Felix, Brun and Racer.Demon in person at Goodwood. Between us I'm sure we can come up with an acceptable update to the article to incorporate your input (and anything else you may be able to add).

It still begs the question though: why has Nixon allowed Lang's "I was still leading the European Championship", "the only person between me and the title was Caracciola" and "mine without question" statements to remain unchallenged in Racing the Silver Arrows? Even if only as a footnote in the 1997 reprint?

I'd appreciate a copy of the Häfeli/Neubauer interview, if you would be so kind.

RichardVitesse@aol.com

#503 David J Jones

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 16:51

Vitesse

Yes it is a mystery that Nixon does not acknowledge in his books Muller's claim to the 1939 title.

Even more so when it is considered that in an answer to a question which I raised with Motor Sport on the topic he did seem to acknowledge that Muller had a good claim to the title. He also went to great pains to point out that none of the A-U officials spoken to in his researches had questioned the validity of Langs title in favour of Muller. He merely said that having spoken with Lang he was left in no doubt by him as to who was the champion.

I find it strange that we have not located Huhnleins files from his NSKK time and wonder if they may have been concealed or 'misplaced' by someone.

As to the crux of the matter I am begining to feel that the title was decided between M-B and A-U representatives perhaps with a little pressure from Huhnlein

#504 David J Jones

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:23

While I was searching around concerning this thread on the Internet I came across a non-engish website on H P Muller that had a couple of nice posters printed in it relating to the A-U successes in France and Jugoslavia (Belgrade)

The website is www.f1.ultra.pl/Strona/historicaF1/Muller/plakaty.jpg

Does anyone know where the posters for the four GP's might be available?

#505 quintin cloud

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:46

Originally posted by David J Jones
......

The website is www.f1.ultra.pl/Strona/historicaF1/Muller/plakaty.jpg

....



David, do you have the correct link to the image because it does not work :confused: :

#506 Egon Thurner

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 13:05

Posted Image

#507 anjakub

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 13:23

The article about HP Muller on website f1.ultra.etc is a short summary from TNF thread.

The posters of Auto Union (1936-1939) to buy - see: http://dumans24.netf....com/auposters/

#508 David J Jones

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 13:39

Quintin

I found the site while searching in Yahoo - the link is correct as far as I can see except that the site uses a German u

#509 quintin cloud

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 14:41

Cool :up: :smoking:

#510 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 13:47

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Reinhard – Welcome to TNF. While in Bern during December 2000, I did talk with Adriano Cimarosti about the 1939 Championship and was surprised to learn that he was not aware of an existing controversy. I then showed him the copies I had just received about the 1939 A.R. articles and then he knew.

Holger – I am happy that you found your Quattro. What color? Watch out when you come to Italy at the customs border. There could be a Fiat Uno with the wrong amount of people in it. ;)


Hans, it's that car I picked you up at the railway station - dark blue with grey leather interior. Really a nice trip to Italy with a quattro over the mountains and then on the autostrada.

#511 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 14:23

Originally posted by Reinhard Windeler

Finally, for those who are interested in the way Alfred Neubauer recalled the 1939 Swiss Grand Prix, I would like to point out that René Häfeli's 1969 book "Verstummte Motoren - Die Geschichte des Schweizer Grand Prix" contains a more detailed account from an interview of the author with the "Rennleiter" (p. 120). Needless to say that there is no reference to the fact that the race was a championship decider nor any serious mention of Müller's participation at all.


Reinhard, not neccessary to say, that I'm interested in a copy of this interview. Is there any possibility, you can post it here or send it by mail?

#512 Reinhard Windeler

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 15:16

Originally posted by Holger Merten


Reinhard, not neccessary to say, that I'm interested in a copy of this interview. Is there any possibility, you can post it here or send it by mail?


Holger,
I'm sorry but (due to inferior equipment) I'm not able to post the Häfeli thing or send it via e-Mail. But already I sent a copy to "Vitesse2" in the old-fashioned way. If it has arrived safely then maybe Richard can post it here.

#513 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 17:35

Holger - I offer to take pictures of the relevant pages and send them to you this weekend. The results in regards to quality and resolution are so much better with my 3.2-pixel camera than with the scanner and it takes considerably less time than scanning. :)

#514 Holger Merten

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Posted 07 September 2003 - 00:40

Thanks guys, thats TNF- coming home late in the "morning" and get two nice offers. Whatever makes it easy to you ( I think Hans could support me with my interests easily, while I'm ordering the whole book for reading the whole story). Thanks a lot.
tt
And Reinhard, it would be of interest, what you think about the 1939 EC after all those facts we found out (Including the MB/AU statements from 2002).

#515 Reinhard Windeler

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 15:50

Originally posted by Holger Merten
And Reinhard, it would be of interest, what you think about the 1939 EC after all those facts we found out (Including the MB/AU statements from 2002).

Holger,
my thoughts on the 1939 EC? I feel flattered. :blush:

Well, it was a shame and a mess.
A shame because the outbreak of WW2 prevented a clear decision on the title by the A.I.A.C.R. and also because nobody dared or bothered to care about it after WW2 for decades.
A mess because it is an absurdity for a governing body to put the fundamental rules of a competition up for discussion whilst the competition is already under way. (Tribute must be paid to the scribes at "Automobil Revue" where common sense obviously prevailed.)

Based on what we know so far I think it can be said that Hermann Lang is definitely not European Champion of 1939. The title awarded to him by the ONS is of little value because the ONS as a national authority simply wasn't competent to award a Continental title.

The championship can only be decided on the rules of the A.I.A.C.R. Since there was no announcement by the A.I.A.C.R. we need a valid points system to find out who was the rightful champion.

In this respect (that is question # 5 in Richard Armstrong's feature on http://8w.forix.com/ec1939.html) we know that there was a proposal of a new points system but obviously no settlement by the A.I.A.C.R. (the only authority that matters).

So, I think, we have to ask: Was the points system that was used up to and in 1938 still in force in 1939 or was it not?

There are two possibilities:
1) The old system was valid until further notice: Then the minimum-point-system was valid in 1939 unless it was cancelled during 1939 of which there is no proof.
2) The old system had a limited period of validity and had expired at the end of 1938: Then a new system for 1939 had to be installed.
a) If a system was installed before the start of the championship and it was identical to the former system then the minimum-point-system was valid in 1939 because it never was replaced by the proposed new system.
b) If no system was installed before the start of the championship because at the A.I.A.C.R. it was expected to decide upon it later then there was no valid system in 1939 because this decision was never made.

In case of 1) or 2)a) the European Champion is Müller. The fact that the A.I.A.C.R. never made an official announcement on the title wouldn't be detrimental because if we know the rules and the results we don't need someone to tell us the outcome of a contest.

In case of 2)b) the Championship remains undecided and there is no Champion.

How Hühnlein on behalf of the ONS calculated in order to declare Lang "European Champion" (the infamous 23-points-announcement) is of minor interest because his award is of little value. It can - IMHO - only be seen as an equivalent to a post-season honouring of a "Driver of the year", a distinction Hermann Lang deserved without doubt.

PS. Which MB/AU statements do you mean?

#516 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 17:13

Reinhard thanks for your reply. I agree with you in the most of the points.

BTW: I asked MB and AU about their point of view last year and posted their reponse in this thread or in the HP Müller thread. Did you ever read iot? It was posted here after my telephone interviewwith HP Müllers wife Marielle.

Yes and I was in contact with HP Müllers son last year too. I was working with him next door in the Audi PR dept.

#517 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 21:41

I spent another few frustrating hours looking for clues to the scoring system question. None of the five major British magazines - Autocar, Motor, Light Car, Motor Sport and Speed - make any mention of it in their very sparse reporting of the Autumn 1938 CSI Meeting. I haven't pinned down an exact date for it, but it appears to have been held before the Paris Salon as 1939 racing calendars start to appear in late September in the weeklies.

However: might they have met at Monza during the Italian GP? I'm now wondering that, although I didn't immediately think of it while at Beaulieu. The Donington GP was originally scheduled for October 1st, which I think might have clashed with the Paris Salon and quite a lot of those who were involved would thus have been unable to attend a Paris meeting. Just a thought ....

#518 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 22:35

Richard, there will be a key to open the door to the answer, that's for sure, we just have to find it....

BTW: It's interesting that british magazines had nothing about it. And only the Automobile Revue (checked by Hans) is is "safety" source, talking about the 1939 EC. And HP Müllers wife.

#519 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 00:01

The view expressed by Reinhard in post #564 reflects my thinking, more or less so and Holger speaks about a key to open the door to the answer.

The answer to what question? To me the whole issue has been well explained except for the final ONS settlement, as publicized end of November in 1939. This arrangement, wrongdoing, misdeed or whatever you want to call it, seems to be shrouded from view in an impenetrable mist of great secrecy. Are we looking for the key to this invisible door?

In any case, because I have spent so much time on this 1939 topic, I would still like to know the last bit, the 23–point explanation. Admittedly it is of minor interest, as already mentioned so eloquently by Reinhard. Auto Union and the Daimler-Benz Archiv don’t have this information, don’t have it any more or pretend not to have it. Whatever the case, that leaves us only with the files resting in the Berlin Bundesarchiv, still waiting to be completely purged very cautiously by our "Flying Dutchman" the illustrious 'brun'.

Last thought – it would have been nice to also see Chris Nixon and Paul Sheldon participate in this thread since they both wrote diligently about this subject, years ago. But obviously, only very few professional writers will ever have the time and compassion to honor us dilettantes with their evaluations.

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#520 Holger Merten

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 10:16

Hans, in many magazins and newspapers I received in the last month from the early 50s Lang is always named as EC 1939. So this fact about the 1939 EC was accepted by "everybody".

The question for me would be. How could Lang get the status of an EC in 1939 in the rest of Europe in the early 50s. Was it Lang, who tells everybody, I'm European Champion of 1939, (by Hühnlein). Or was it accepted, that Lang was the best driver of the 1939 saison?

#521 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:17

Let's put it this way...

Was the best driver of 1964 Gurney or Clark?

Did either of them win the Championship?

So being the best driver isn't really the issue, is it?

#522 Don Capps

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 13:09

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Hans, in many magazins and newspapers I received in the last month from the early 50s Lang is always named as EC 1939. So this fact about the 1939 EC was accepted by "everybody".

The question for me would be. How could Lang get the status of an EC in 1939 in the rest of Europe in the early 50s. Was it Lang, who tells everybody, I'm European Champion of 1939, (by Hühnlein). Or was it accepted, that Lang was the best driver of the 1939 saison?


I think it has mentioned a number of times previously, but with Daimler-Benz AG on the western side of the "Iron Curtain" and Auto-Uion AG on the eastern side of it, DB and Lang had something of an advantage in the who was championship sweepstakes. Besides, Don Alfredo touted it and his word was accepted pretty much without question at the time.

I have to agree that not having Sheldon or Nixon wading into the fray is something of a disappointment. However, has anyone put this thread or an abstract of its contents in front of their eyes? Or Richard's 8W article?

#523 Brun

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 22:36

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
In any case, because I have spent so much time on this 1939 topic, I would still like to know the last bit, the 23–point explanation. Admittedly it is of minor interest, as already mentioned so eloquently by Reinhard. Auto Union and the Daimler-Benz Archiv don’t have this information, don’t have it any more or pretend not to have it. Whatever the case, that leaves us only with the files resting in the Berlin Bundesarchiv, still waiting to be completely purged very cautiously by our "Flying Dutchman" the illustrious 'brun'.


Hans, I'm flattered :blush: I have already made preparations with the Bundesarchiv again (you can't just walk in and start searching, but need to contact them in advance). And I will visit it again as promised... had actually planned to go this month, but cash shortage got in the way... (and the fact that the Goodwood ticket bill came early this year didn't help too).

If I can make it, I'll go to Berlin end of February, else I'll combine it with my next Leipzig trip in March.

#524 David J Jones

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Posted 15 February 2004 - 12:37

Brun

Do the files as listed in the Bundesarchiv match those listed on the the details supplied by the US National Archives? I am only raising this point in case they are withholding files from view.

I am examining my copy of the US files (which are now on microfilm) to see if I can locate the Korpsfuhrer's files. They must have been there at some point in time.

Another possibility is that some of Huhnlein's papers may have been with his family. Does anyone know if there are any survivors?

#525 Brun

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Posted 15 February 2004 - 18:18

Originally posted by David J Jones
Brun

Do the files as listed in the Bundesarchiv match those listed on the the details supplied by the US National Archives? I am only raising this point in case they are withholding files from view.

I am examining my copy of the US files (which are now on microfilm) to see if I can locate the Korpsfuhrer's files. They must have been there at some point in time.

Another possibility is that some of Huhnlein's papers may have been with his family. Does anyone know if there are any survivors?


David,

Don't know... I guess they're the same.

Whether Hühnlein had any family, I don't know. But even if he had, then I don't think they'd kept a stack of Nazi documents from father Hühnlein in the basement... stuff like that hasn't been very much in vogue after 1945  ;) and for families like those, it was much easier to say "we never knew a thing" if there weren't any documents lying around to prove otherwise :rolleyes:

#526 David J Jones

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 07:47

Brun

I am attempting to ensure all possibilities are covered. Somewhere Huhnlein's private docs exist assuming they are not in the Bundesarchiv. I cannot accept that all trace of what happened has disappeared and believe it will turn up.

I was reminded of Huhnlein a few weeks ago when watching a documentary on Heydrich. The camera panned from Heydrich and there was AH walking close to the camera. In the early days of the NSDAP Huhnlein was closely involved.

#527 Brun

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 08:29

Well, like I said, I seriously doubt such private files do exist. , But even if they do - and I sure hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this - I'm not going to be the one to search for them... I mean, searching public archives and doing some research is a lot of fun, but diving into the private past of a family is not. It's bound the become very painful, since the current - young - members of the Huhnlein family will see no point in having it all raked up. Not the kind of thing I like to do. Besides - what would give me the right to start nosing around anyway?

#528 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 11:08

Brun - you are just looking for the document, which contains an explanation of how the points (23) were distributed. This is just hypothetical, but very likely, that Hühnlein presented a document to the other ONS members at the (known to you) meeting. Therefore, Neubauer and Feuereisen had to know about the NSKK/ONS point score. Why would Hühnlein have released the score just for the Völkischer Beobachter and at least one other paper (there may be others, has anybody looked in the old newspapers?) and ignore these two important ONS members? To me it is not conceivable that the Auto Union and Mercedes representatives came home from this ONS meeting without written documentation.

I would not look initially into Hühnlein’s personal records but only for the reason that I would not expect to find there the document in question. But it cannot cause any damage to eventually find out more about the contents of his personal files, should that become necessary.

#529 David J Jones

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Posted 16 February 2004 - 11:32

Brun

I believe you are correct on approaching the family - if there are any survivors. I was not suggesting anyone let alone your good self should - I was wondering if there were any survivors.
Your comments regarding the sensibilities of the families of those invloved are noted and have my agreement.

Huhnlein is however an interesting character and I am beginning to collect more and more references to him from other sources. His successor was named Erwin Krauss and he remained in charge to the end of the war. By nature these people would have maintained daily journals and records. Hopefully they reside in an archive somewhere. In one thread someone suggested his death was not due to illness but I have been unable to locate it. Something peculiar may have taken place - looking at a document I obtained from our Public Records Office his death is noted and the comment is made 'after a long illness' in quotes as here. I wondered if the writer was being a little sarcastic.

I will have to try to think around what archives might exist in the Munich area - although I suppose poking around in them might attract unwelcome attention.

I am teaching myself German for tasks like this but it is rather time consuming and Gothic script does my ead in.

#530 Brun

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 11:46

Since I had planned to visit Berlin in two weeks, I've been in touch with the Bundesarchiv again.

Turns out that the remaining NSKK-files that I wanted to search, are hardly worth the effort. It is a small map and there are no ONS-files in it, just more stuff on what to do when you're a Nazi soldier and your motorcycle just left you stranded at Stalingrad. To sum it up ;)

Seriously: after discussing it with an expert there, I'm convinced I've more or less exhausted the archive's resources. :cry:

Remember what I wrote last year on the strange gaps in the files? I'm sure that the 23-points-thing was in one of those gaps. Either they burned part of the archives in 1945, or the Russians took it, or the USA kept stuff behind when they gave the files back. Whatever.

It might be possible to find out a little more on Hühnlein by searching the files of the former Berlin Document Center, as it was called. However, searches like those (on persons instead of organisations) take a lot of time from the busy staff and you're required to file a request at least 6 weeks ahead. Maybe I'll do it in the summer, right now I can't plan that far ahead. And I'm not that sure that it'll shed new light on the issue of how old Hühnlein came to his 23 points. So I'll just leave the archives for a while.

What I could do, though - and this is a lot easier for me - is visit the National German Library in Leipzig. I've been there more than once, it's one of the three official national libraries and there are HEAPS of prewar magazines that I've yet to search. So I'll just concentrate on that one for the time being.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help :

#531 Holger Merten

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 12:58

Brun, what about the Landesstaatsarchiv in Leipzig? I know that there are also a lot of documents about the AU. Could be a chance to have a closer look to their documents.

#532 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 16:55

Brun - thanks for trying. Success was never expected, just the hope to make a hit. :(

Leipzig might be a excellent alternative. Good luck.

#533 Don Capps

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 19:29

Lest we forget..... Any idea if Chris Nixon or Paul Sheldon has or will ever see the work done here? Or more expeditions being planned to contine to mine the archives or other sources for more evidence or other material?

#534 David McKinney

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 20:37

Originally posted by Don Capps
Lest we forget..... Any idea if Chris Nixon or Paul Sheldon has or will ever see the work done here? Or more expeditions being planned to contine to mine the archives or other sources for more evidence or other material?

Wasn't one of Paul Sheldon's sons a TNF member?
And I keep telling Duncan Rabagliati about the forum - though he doesn't seem to have signed on yet :lol:

#535 Brun

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Posted 29 September 2004 - 21:09

Originally posted by Don Capps
Lest we forget..... Any idea if Chris Nixon or Paul Sheldon has or will ever see the work done here? Or more expeditions being planned to contine to mine the archives or other sources for more evidence or other material?


More work is done, but it's progressing very slowly. Like I said in the Müller thread - I'm visiting the National Library this weekend. They should have copies of MANY German newspapers from the 1930s...

#536 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 06:54

This will be a nice surprise to see your results after my holidays, brun. Keep me informed.

#537 Brun

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:21

Going on holiday *again* Holger? You lead a life of luxury, my good man. ;)

#538 Brun

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 19:23

Allright, reporting back...

First, the bad news. I've found very little on the 1939 Championship. On November 30, 1939, a newspaper called the Allgemeine Zeitung Chemnitz featured a tiny article on the matter:

Drei Deutsche Europameister sind vom Führer des Deutschen Kraftfahrsports Korpsführer Hühnlein ernannt worden. Es sind Lang, Kluge, Fleischmann. Lange wurde mit 23 Punkten Europameister in Rennwagen auf Mercedes-Benz.

In short: Hühnlein has appointed three European Champions from Germany. Lang with 23 points. Also the article claimed Kluge with 27 Points and Fleischmann with 23 Points.

From the top of my head, I'd say that this is very little news. Well, it seems to suggest that Hühnlein came up with the 23 points and that it's not a typo of the press, or am I mistaken?

I scanned a number of German newspapers (from Chemnitz, Berlin and Leipzig) from the last week of november and the first week of december, 1939. This is all I found. But if anyone is interested in a absolutely dwarfing stack of articles about the war efforts in Poland, the stupidity of Churchill, the agressive politics of the United Kingdom and other propaganda: those newspapers are full of them... :lol:

As for the good news - I may have found something to end another long-standing issue from the same era... but I've promised 8W the scoop, so expect something there very soon!

#539 Don Capps

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 17:37

Something to look forward to when the 8W folks allow the scoop to be shared with the rest of us.

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#540 Racer.Demon

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Posted 07 October 2004 - 18:06

That's only natural, Don.

#541 David J Jones

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 14:40

Brun

You wrote

Remember what I wrote last year on the strange gaps in the files? I'm sure that the 23-points-thing was in one of those gaps. Either they burned part of the archives in 1945, or the Russians took it, or the USA kept stuff behind when they gave the files back. Whatever.


Have you a count of the files and the titles in the posession of the Bundesarchiv? I would agree it is reasonable to the Lang 23 point ruling would be in the NSKK files.

I have a list somewhere of the files in US posession at the end of the war. The US archives state no files were withheld - maybe the gaps appeared in Germany if the record count does not match.

#542 Brun

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 21:26

Originally posted by David J Jones
Brun
Have you a count of the files and the titles in the posession of the Bundesarchiv? I would agree it is reasonable to the Lang 23 point ruling would be in the NSKK files.

I have a list somewhere of the files in US posession at the end of the war. The US archives state no files were withheld - maybe the gaps appeared in Germany if the record count does not match.


David, the Bundesarchiv is immense... although it's thouroughly organised, it's impossible to give a simple overview of titles and files.

Perhaps this a good moment to recap what I managed to find on the 1939 EC.

I remember searching all available NSKK sources in the Bundesarchiv, with invaluable help from an employee who had been working with these sources for decades. I just told him what I was looking for ("Hühnlein, ONS, 1939 EC, 23 points") and he took me through the catalogues, pointing out files that might be of interest and also ruling out others, saving me lots of time. The man really knew his stuff, far better than I, so I mainly followed his leads. Still: nothing. So I think I've more or less exhausted the possibilities there. Maybe one day I'll do some more browsing through the Bundesarchiv, but it's not on top of my list anymore.

As for the Leipzig library, that is a different thing. Its sources range from hundreds of years ago till today and I was on my own. Last year I went through books, this time I searched magazines and newspapers. I might be able to do some more research there, but I'm pretty sure I've covered about 90 percent. Going to take up the remaining snippets soon, but don't get your hopes up.

The Auto Union archives: well, I did find wonderful things there, like the minutes of the ONS meeting and the proposal for the new points system, which were all posted here on TNF back then. And that about covered it. Been there, done that, so to speak :yawn:

I also went through our own national Royal Dutch library. Well, 'went through' is not exactly the right phrase. It's huge and I guess I could try some period newspapers next. No idea if anything will come up, but who knows?

However, after all this, I am left with the strong impression that when Hühnlein made his announcement late 1939, nobody in Germany gave a damn anymore. Lang and Müller were yesterday's news. The last races were already two months ago, the summer was over and everyone was occupied with the MAIN theme of the day: war with Poland and Great-Britain. There's nothing but war talk and politics in the newspapers of the time. All the old 'propaganda' sport events - and motor racing definately was such a thing in Nazi-Germany - seem to have disappeared from the public eye in late 1939. Even the announcement that the 1940 Olympics were cancelled received very little press.

So I now think that it happened like this: Hühnlein came up with the 23 points and didn't say where he got them. He might have made them up, for all we know. And some reporters or magazines may have wondered why they only received the announcement, not the points calculation from the ONS. Maybe some of them even rung up and asked. But when nothing came out of it, some newspapers printed a couple of lines announcing the championship, others didn't even bother at all. And that was it. Six more terrible years of war followed and the championship became nothing but a footnote in history.

Am I overdramatic? Maybe. But I don't think I'm far from the truth.

#543 David J Jones

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 07:21

Brun

You may be right about an off the cuff statement from Huhnlein. However even if this were so there should be evidence of of the news release.

Maybe this existed but was only in the ONS files............

I will have another look at the full listing of NSKK files as held on microfilm at NARA. To my recollection there was a set of files that terminated at the time of Huhnlein's death.

I would have expected something in there. Do you know which files your helper accesed?

#544 Brun

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 08:12

Originally posted by David J Jones
Brun

You may be right about an off the cuff statement from Huhnlein. However even if this were so there should be evidence of of the news release.

Maybe this existed but was only in the ONS files............

I will have another look at the full listing of NSKK files as held on microfilm at NARA. To my recollection there was a set of files that terminated at the time of Huhnlein's death.

I would have expected something in there. Do you know which files your helper accesed?


No, I'm sorry, it's buried somewhere deep inside my files, I'm afraid...

#545 Holger Merten

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 09:54

If the news in the newspaperwas only an anouncement by the Korpsführer which was printed by the newspapers, than there must be some more information in the AU or MB archive. Something like a memo by Feuereissen or Neubauer to their board of directors: " Yesterday we received the notice from the Korpsführer, that Lang is anounced EC by the ONS for 1939. A new proof for the German workmanship and the quality of MB, Heil Hitler, Neubauer." Or something like that?

#546 Brun

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 21:26

Originally posted by Brun

I also went through our own national Royal Dutch library. Well, 'went through' is not exactly the right phrase. It's huge and I guess I could try some period newspapers next. No idea if anything will come up, but who knows?


Forgive me for quoting myself - I just wanted to keep the small fire of this thread glowing. As it happens, I've spent an enjoyable hour searching the online catalogue of the Royal Dutch library. It turns out they have an more than impressive collection of period newspapers... from the Netherlands and also from Germany. Meaning: a whole new source, only ten minutes away from the place where Mattijs and I work...

So, don't get your hopes up, but don't loose them alltogether either. We're still searching.

#547 David Hyland

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 05:52

Originally posted by Vitesse2
http://8w.forix.com/ec1939.html

An impressive summary of this spectacular thread (IMHO).

I did notice one tiny error on the 8W page, which I don't know if anyone here has the ability/inclination to correct: the second occurrence of "a) Maximum point system" should read "b) Minimum point system".

Keep digging! Maybe one day we'll know for sure....

#548 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 10:17

Originally posted by David Hyland
An impressive summary of this spectacular thread (IMHO).

I did notice one tiny error on the 8W page, which I don't know if anyone here has the ability/inclination to correct: the second occurrence of "a) Maximum point system" should read "b) Minimum point system".

Keep digging! Maybe one day we'll know for sure....


I must have proof-read that three or four times! Thanks David, I'm sure Mattijs will fix it when he gets back from his hols ....

#549 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 11:00

Originally posted by David Hyland
.....Keep digging! Maybe one day we'll know for sure....


I was going to post something like this this morning... but refrained...

Please forgive me for seconding David's motion now. This thread is one I always check if it comes to the top, I am very keen to know what progress is being made.

#550 Racer.Demon

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 18:09

Originally posted by Vitesse2


I must have proof-read that three or four times! Thanks David, I'm sure Mattijs will fix it when he gets back from his hols ....


Done!

Probably my mistake - looks like a classic copy-and-paste error from the first table. :(