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1939 European Championship


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#101 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 May 2001 - 11:47

Hans, I would guess that the reason FIA claim heritage to 1904 is that that was the foundation date of the AIACR. This is nonsense of course: it's like the UN claiming to be founded in 1920 because it succeeded the League of Nations!

David J Jones: you've obviously followed this up further than appears from your previous postings with all this talk of the OSA etc. A lot of info covered by the OSA is in the public domain in the USA under the Freedom of Information legislation - if you know the names of documents, with PRO or other references if possible, I believe it's possible to access them from the US National Archives if they have copies - perhaps someone in the US could provide further details on this?

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#102 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 31 May 2001 - 16:53

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hans, I would guess that the reason FIA claim heritage to 1904 is that that was the foundation date of the AIACR.

I was always under the impression that the A.I.A.C.R. was founded after WW I in 1922. Are there any books or magazines, which say differently?

#103 Don Capps

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Posted 31 May 2001 - 17:23

Hans,

I was under the impression that the AIACR was created in the 1904 time period. Once again, when I get home I will look it up to make sure.

As a matter of curiosity, have you managed to pull together some sort of commentary concerning 'The Hans Etzrodt Quest for the Truth about the 1939 AIACR European Championship'? Even if we are still scratching our heads, I think that this would be an excellent article for The Back Page when it appears.

I, for one, would love to see all this laid out. This is a fascinating story and I can only say how impressed I am that you have managed to bring so much of it to light.

#104 Don Capps

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Posted 01 June 2001 - 02:53

Okay, here goes:

The AIACR formed the Commission Sportive Internationale in 1922. However, the actual date of the formation of the AIACR seems a tad elusive just doing an eyeball check of a few sources. Apparently it sprang into being sometime between the 1906 GP de l'ACF and perhaps 1908 or 1909. It was headquartered in Paris and the lead agency was the ACF.

The CSI was formed in 1922 in an apparent effort to whip the Americans -- All of them -- and various Others into line.

Anybody else?

#105 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 June 2001 - 04:38

Originally posted by Don Capps
.....have you managed to pull together some sort of commentary concerning 'The Hans Etzrodt Quest for the Truth about the 1939 AIACR European Championship'? Even if we are still scratching our heads, I think that this would be an excellent article for The Back Page when it appears.....

Don,
How much per word and how long a story? :)

#106 David J Jones

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Posted 01 June 2001 - 07:39

Don / Hans

I think it would be an excellent idea for a backpage feature for TNf.

I also think it would be a tremendous story line for a book as I have come to believe there is more to this than meets the eye. It is more than anyone can believe surely that it is an oversight on the part of the authorities.
What title for the book - The Uncrowned Champion ? or The Code of Silence?

Hans - I am still in pursuit of details from the UK on the topic. You have got me so interested in this I can't stop searching and asking questions!!
I still have a couple of enquiries under way please contact me via email if you are interested in updates

Vitesse
When I mentioned the OSA I was referring to other historical topics of the period and not the 1939 EC issue. It should be noted that the US records are not necessarily free of censorship on some topics.




#107 Brian O Flaherty

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Posted 01 June 2001 - 10:54

I have just read this post from top to bottom and thoroughly enjoyed how the investigation has developed.

I found a website which claims to have all the winners from "Official GP's" from 1906 to 1949. I dont know how authentic it is but I just thought I'd share it because it lists 5 official Grand Prix's for 1939.

The Belgian Grand Prix in Spa won by Hermann Lang of Germany in a Mercedes W163
The ACF Grand Prix in Reims won by Hermann Muller of Germany in an Auto-Union D
The German Grand Prix in Nurburgring won by Rudolf Caracciola of Germany in a Mercedes W163
The Swiss Grand Prix in Bremgarten won by Hermann Lang of Germany in a Mercedes W163

and finally

The Yugoslav Grand Prix in Belgrade won by Tazio Nuvolari of Italy in an Auto-Union D

Does this shed any light on how the points were worked out ?


#108 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 June 2001 - 11:31

That would be Hans Etzrodt's very authentic list on Leif Snellman's very authentic site, right Brian? Both Leif and Hans are involved in this search, as you'll see if you check back through this thread and the parallel one at ten-tenths but we're all still baffled!!!

#109 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 07:22

Recently I stopped at Barnes & Noble Books and could not resist to buy for only $15.61 one of their bargain books, a 10½ x 14½ inch, 304-page coffee-table tome, titled "The Century of MOTOR RACING", 1999, from the writers Giuseppe Guzzardi & Enzo Rizzo; ISBN 0-7607-1877-6. I admit that I picked the book mainly because of the numerous good pictures but later found the text also of great interest, although not always correct. Here is what they had to say about the 1939 outcome.

“Victories in the six Grands Prix were shared equally between Mercedes and Auto Union with the only driver to win two events being Hermann Lang. One could say it was he who won the European title but the regulations did not allow the German ace to be officially recognized as champion because the young Hermann Müller with the up rated Auto Union D could also have achieved the necessary points total. Unfortunately definitive standings would depend on knowing the exact moment at which the pair retired in certain races. Lang and Müller were both outsiders: Lang, a humble mechanic, wrecked Caracciola’s dream of conquering a fourth title while Müller was a virtual rookie.”

#110 Marcel Schot

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 08:17

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
“Victories in the six Grands Prix were shared equally between Mercedes and Auto Union with the only driver to win two events being Hermann Lang. ”


With Auto Union only taking 2 victories (ACF & Belgrade) in the season's big races, this doesn't sound right, does it?

#111 Rob29

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 08:21

Thought we had established that only FOUR races conted for the championship.Reims,Spa,Berne & Nurburgring?

#112 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 11:32

Mr Spock beams down: "That does not compute Captain"

Whoever these guys are they appear to have details of a race that none of us has ever heard of won by an Auto Union!! One of their extra races could be Belgrade, but as Lang won Pau, their numbers don't add up if we include that in the six.

Unfortunately definitive standings would depend on knowing the exact moment at which the pair retired in certain races.



And WTH is that supposed to mean???

#113 Marcel Schot

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:00

I guess they couldn't come up with the definitive standings and thought that the mystery must be in where exactly the 25%, 50% and 75% marks were. Example, had a race 63 laps, 25% would be 15.75 laps. What I think is their train of thought is that we would know in such case if someone retired in lap 15, but we don't know whether he had completed 100m in the 16th lap or half of it or 90% of the lap and that we therefore cannot be sure whether it should be regarded as having completed between 25 and 50 % or less than 25.

#114 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:46

I'll go with that Marcel, but I'd always assumed that this was worked out on completed laps only i.e. if Driver A retires half-way through lap 50 in a 100-lap race then he is only considered to have completed 49% of the race distance, but if Driver B retires in the pits at the end of lap 50 he has completed 50%.

Disregarding the six race dilemma though, none of the four races we've based this on has a number of laps exactly divisible by 4, but I don't think Hans would have missed something that obvious ... he's spent so much time on this!!

#115 Marcel Schot

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 12:53

Well, that's because Hans isn't one to take the easy way out, whereas I believe these guys did :)

#116 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 14 June 2001 - 18:01

The quote from the Guzzardi/Rizzo book does not give a clear answer. It states about six Grands Prix, three won each by Mercedes and Auto Union, which indicates already that the authors don't really know the subject too well. All they tell us that there were two possible champions, which could not be determined (by the authors but others did).

#117 David J Jones

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Posted 17 June 2001 - 14:21

Hans

I found the reference you made to the Guzzardi/Rizzo book interesting.

Although you state that it does not clear up the matter it is - to my knowledge - the first published acknowledgement outside this forum - that the 39 championship was contrived by the ONS.

Now for the question - do they declare their sources? These would be of use to us in determining where we should direct further enquiry.

As I have stated in a previous post I have several inquiries under way although as yet I have not received replies.







#118 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 June 2001 - 07:49

This is what I see in the muddied waters of the 1939 European Championship.

  • There was the official 1939 European Championship in place by the A.I.A.C.R. , which were undecided of how to determine the champion after the conclusion of the four championship runs. They never awarded the title. Therefore there was no 1939 European Champion.
  • Because the A.I.A.C.R. did not award the title, the German ONS declared Hermann Lang as 1939 European Champion without providing details. This was a concoction contrived by the German Third Reich propaganda machine and should have been unacceptable to all other nations and any journalist or historian who calls himself an honest writer.
  • Resolution: After 1945, all authoritative writers, except Paul Sheldon, have been either ignorant of above facts or have been silenced by an unknown entity, to refrain from revealing the truth about this remnant of the Third Reich. Instead, they all make reference to the stereotype "Hermann Lang, 1939 European Champion on Mercedes-Benz", which is an invention by the German Third Reich.

    It is time to clean the slate, gentlemen.


#119 David J Jones

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Posted 30 June 2001 - 13:27

Hans

I agree with the summary you have presented in its entirety

If the AIACR didn't ever appoint a European Champion then there wasn't an official one

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#120 Don Capps

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Posted 30 June 2001 - 14:58

Hans,

To use a term now in the OED: "Doh...."

I think that you may have finally pointed out The Blinding Flash of the Obvious that most of us overlooked.... There was no 1939 European Champion blessed by the AIACR.

Boy, is this a great story or what! :)

#121 David McKinney

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Posted 30 June 2001 - 16:29

Someone has to make an opposing viewpoint:)
My first reaction was to praise Hans for the clarity of his summary.
But, looking at it the other way, the AIACR announced the criteria for the championship, the qualifying races and the points system. I would have thought that in itself defines the position. Their failure to rubber-stamp it retrospectively surely doesn't stop Müller being 1939 European Champion: he gained the most points under the published articles.
Of course we can never say he was "crowned" champion, or even that he was officially "named" champion.
But we can certainly stop referring to Lang as 1939 European Champion - and should do so actively!

#122 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 July 2001 - 08:32

H.P. Müller’s plight should have been described in the missing third paragraph before the resolution.
David, it seems you are the only one to have noticed this omission and pointed towards the missing European Champion, H.P. Müller.

David presents a very well chosen statement when he says,
“Of course we can never say he was "crowned" champion, or even that he was officially "named" champion.
But we can certainly stop referring to Lang as 1939 European Champion - and should do so actively.”


#123 Marcel Schot

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Posted 01 July 2001 - 09:17

I don't mean to ruin the party, but it's this exactly where we started from some 11.5 months ago?

The original question read

The Question is: How did the ONS point system work and which races were included in the 'ONS European Championship'?


That question hasn't been solved and certainly looks like it can't be anymore

#124 David J Jones

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Posted 01 July 2001 - 15:04

Marcel / David / Hans

I am afraid I took it for granted that H P Muller was the European Champion for 1939 - although he was never crowned.

I feel that the injustice should have been rectified by the Sports Authorities in the aftermath of the War - and it is NOT too late even now for them to do so.
My personal opinion is that it is an indictement on them - and the historians who ignore the plain facts - that the situation persists.

The plain facts of the matter are that

a. The AIACR nominated the races counting towards chamionship.
b. The scoring system can be counted as that appertaining from that used in the previous year. There is no record of them having changed it.
c. The fact that war commenced on 3rd Sept 1939 is only material insofar as it suspended the racing season - and therefore the AIACR operations as the majority of members were at war with oneanother.
d. Because of the foregoing any decision as to the European Champion was in suspense. So therefore the declaration by KorpsFuhrer Huhnlein should rightfully be disregarded by the Free World as being an internal German matter.
No valid decision regarding the European Championship can therefore be considered until after 7th May 1945
e. Hans is therefore correct in stating that there was NO legal European Champion. Only a German Champion Lang.
f. It would seem the history is very much based on Lang's own account and is based on his book. His specfic quote relating to Swiss GP deciding the European Championship between Carraciola and himself is just so unbelievable.

Since we are able with hindsight to identify the facts, surely it is time for all just and fair minded persons to give H P Muller the credit he deserves and lobby for him to be awarded the posthumous title of AIACR European Champion for 1939.

This has been my stance since I became reaquanted with the subject (In the 1950's I vaguely remember my brother who was a motor cycle racing fanatic as well) telling me that HPM had been cheated of his title.

I feel that if anyone wishes to declare Lang as the European Champion then they have to asked

On what basis?
What is the documentary justification?
When was it ratified by the AIACR?

I am sorry to be so verbose and pedantic about this but it is begining to irritate me that a Nazi decision is allowed to stand with any credence whatsoever.

I do not decry Lang's achievements he had his ONS Championship by whatever scoring method they chose to use but historical facts decree that H P Muller was the European Champion

#125 quintin cloud

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Posted 03 July 2001 - 10:08

This is what I see in the muddied waters of the 1939 European Championship.

There was the official 1939 European Championship in place by the A.I.A.C.R. , which were undecided of how to
determine the champion after the conclusion of the four championship runs. They never awarded the title. Therefore
there was no 1939 European Champion.

Because the A.I.A.C.R. did not award the title, the German ONS declared Hermann Lang as 1939 European Champion
without providing details. This was a concoction contrived by the German Third Reich propaganda machine and should
have been unacceptable to all other nations and any journalist or historian who calls himself an honest writer.

Resolution: After 1945, all authoritative writers, except Paul Sheldon, have been either ignorant of above facts or have
been silenced by an unknown entity, to refrain from revealing the truth about this remnant of the Third Reich. Instead,
they all make reference to the stereotype "Hermann Lang, 1939 European Champion on Mercedes-Benz", which is an
invention by the German Third Reich.

It is time to clean the slate, gentlemen.


Hans I agree with your points and David others aswell :up: :up:

#126 Don Capps

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Posted 03 July 2001 - 12:10

Perhaps we need to put this case before FIA President Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone.

With what Hans, Paul Sheldon, and the rest of you have gathered on this "case," I think that the time has come to "correct the record."

If need be, I will be happy to put this information together and start the ball rolling. Since BE reads RVM, the first step should be putting all this into a column and taking it from there.

I need Hans to think about this approach. I will also appraoch Paul Sheldon through his son to see if he is interested in helping in this cause. Leif, as usual, can make sure I don't botch my facts, and the rest of the research gang can send me their contributions. I want to show the FIA and the rest of the racing community that there has been more than few minds bent to solving this "case."

Does this sound like a plan?

#127 quintin cloud

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Posted 03 July 2001 - 13:56

Don that's another great soguestion :up: it will be interesting to see what Mosly & Ecclestone have say about the '39 EU championship. :)

#128 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 04 July 2001 - 04:42

Originally posted by Don Capps
Perhaps we need to put this case before FIA President Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone.

Really? :( :confused:
I cannot imagine that they would be interested in this historic stuff since they already have such a confused FIA historian on board who bungled other important historic facts, which are by the way published at the Atlas F1 site. Are you straightening out this snafu as well, Don?

Originally posted by Don Capps
With what Hans, Paul Sheldon, and the rest of you have gathered on this "case," I think that the time has come to "correct the record."

I agree with you, Don.

Originally posted by Don Capps
If need be, I will be happy to put this information together and start the ball rolling. Since BE reads RVM, the first step should be putting all this into a column and taking it from there.

Don, go for it. Just remember to mail me a copy, because I have no access to this site. :) Still waiting for my honorary membership invitation.

Originally posted by Don Capps
I need Hans to think about this approach. I will also appraoch Paul Sheldon through his son to see if he is interested in helping in this cause. Leif, as usual, can make sure I don't botch my facts, and the rest of the research gang can send me their contributions. I want to show the FIA and the rest of the racing community that there has been more than few minds bent to solving this "case."

Does this sound like a plan?

Why don't you go ahead and write your RVM story, Don. All I have to say about this topic has already been posted in this thread. I don't need to think about it unless you want me to write the story but you are fully capable of doing a good job yourself. The facts are all in this thread and the hypothetical aspects -not yet discussed- will remain in the dark - for now.

#129 Don Capps

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Posted 04 July 2001 - 05:03

Hans,

On the case....

....and Happy Independence Day!

#130 Darren Galpin

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Posted 04 July 2001 - 07:01

I'm going to do my little bit by adding in the discussion on why Lang was "champion" and Muller was not to my 1939 results page. It may not read much, but its a start......

#131 fines

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Posted 04 July 2001 - 10:36

Sorry to spoil the party, but I happen to disagree with all of you! I still believe Lang to be the rightful champion, and that we need to find out about the change of scoring. We've seen hints about possible meetings of the AIACR and their aim to modify the scoring in the summer of 1939, and the fact that we haven't found solid proof so far shouldn't surprise us at all in the light of our findings that even the 1950 World Championship was largely ignored by a leading British magazine throughout the entire year!

David McKinney has come up with the point of view that since "the AIACR announced the criteria for the championship, the qualifying races and the points system (...) that in itself defines the position." I agree that with such a preamble we are perfectly entitled to determine a European Champion for the year 1939 even though the AIACR (or the FIA, for that matter) apparently never acknowledged one. And that's exactly what Adolf Hühnlein did!

His statement reads as follows: "Der Korpsführer des NSKK. gibt bekannt: Die int. Auto- u. Motoradsportverbände haben im Frühjahr 1939 beschlossen, auch in diesem Jahr die Europameisterschaften für Rennwagen und Motorräder austragen zu lassen. Da sowohl die AIACR wie die FICM infolge des Krieges nicht zusammentreten können, erkläre ich auf Grund der vorliegenden klaren Punktergebnisse in den für die Europameisterschaft international festgesetzt gewesenen Automobil- und Motorradrennen zum Europameister für Rennwagen NSKK.-Staffelführer Hermann Lang auf Mercedes-Benz mit 23 Punkten und zum Europameister für Motorräder der Klasse 250 ccm NSKK.-Obersturmführer Ewald Kluge auf Auto-Union-DKW. mit 27 Punkten, zum Europameister für Motorräder der Klasse 350 ccm NSKK-Obersturmführer Heiner Fleischmann auf Auto-Union-DKW. mit 23 Punkten. Europameister im Gesamtklassement der Motorräder ist NSKK.-Obersturmführer Ewald Kluge auf Auto-Union-DKW."

Translation: "The Corps Leader of the NSKK proclaims: The international Automobile and Motorcycle Sporting Associations have decreed in early 1939 to continue awarding European Championships for racing cars and motorcycles for this year. Since both the AIACR and the FICM cannot meet because of the war, I declare on the basis of the present evident points results in the automobile and motorcycle races that were internationally determined championship rounds, the European Champion for racing cars, NSKK Squadron Leader Hermann Lang on Mercedes-Benz with 23 points and the European Champion for motorcycles in the 250cc class, NSKK Senior Assault Leader Ewald Kluge on Auto-Union-DKW with 27 points, the European Champion for motorcycles in the 350cc class, NSKK Senior Assault Leader Heiner Fleischmann on Auto-Union-DKW with 23 points. European Champion in the overall classification for motorcycles is NSKK Senior Assault Leader Ewald Kluge on Auto-Union-DKW."

Why should the NSKK deprive a German driver and manufacturer of a rightful championship? Indeed, if they really went into the championship rigging business, why on earth did they not manipulate the outcome of the 500cc motorcycle championship, which was won by Dorino Serafini on a Gilera, when the most successful marque was BMW with their star riders Georg Meier and Jock West?

Also, H. P. Müller was well and alive and even a successful racer post-war (250cc World Champion in 1955), but NEVER was there ANY hint about a possible pre-war Championship from his own words or from the press; I have never even noticed so much as ANYTHING to that effect until Paul Sheldon came along with his version in 1993. That is not to say it's impossible he won the championship, but how likely is it that a Nazi-fixed outcome would NOT have been rectified or even mentioned by those involved (Müller AND Auto-Union!) in more than fifty years?

I still think we're far from an answer to this conundrum, but let's keep trying!

David, may I ask you to make the article in "O Volante" of Aug 15, 1939 available to us?

#132 David J Jones

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Posted 04 July 2001 - 21:13

Fines

I am sorry to say that I disagree entirely with the subject matter of your last post.

I believe we have established

that there 4 races counting to the European Championship for 1939.

there was no ratification for a change in the AIACR system of scoring.

Lang was NOT ratified by the AIACR as the 1939 European Champion.

there is no justification for additional races to be included for the 1939 European Championship

So whilst I do not disagree that Hermann Lang was the ONS German Champion as appointed according to the NSKK rules this does NOT make him the European Champion for 1939.

KorpsFurher Huhnlein had NO authority to declare him the AIACR champion. Obviously Lang made a better canditate for propaganda purposes than Muller.

As to why Muller or anyone else did not dispute this I would only ask would you have? I can think of many fine Germans who disputed the rule of the Nazis and their decisions and none, regretably, survived.

I do not understand why this this was not overturned after the war but perhaps trhe fact that Auto-Union was in the Russian sphere of influence has a great deal to do with it.

Neither can I explain why the fact did not become more public until today but what I can say is that the findings of Paul Sheldon, Hans Etzrodt, Leif Snellman and Don Capps CANNOT be ignored. It is now time that the stain of the only NAZI decree still remaining be removed from OUR sport.

If this causes embarrassment to those historians who blindly accepted what they are told 'cest la vie.......'

Let the Free World Rule.........as it should have.

#133 Don Capps

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 16:28

Here is something that might be of interest from the web site of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy http://www.iomtt.com/

Posted Image

H. P. (Happi) Muller

Born in Bielefeld, Müller started racing motorcycles in 1929 with a 500 cc Imperia, then changed to JAP for dirt track. In 1931 he joined the Victoria factory team where he became German Champion in the 600cc sidecar class in 1932. After Victoria stopped racing at the end of 1933, H.P. Müller raced as a privateer with his 350 cc Victoria with JAP engine during 1934 and early 1935 until Auto Union gave him a new 500 cc factory DKW. With this machine he became German Champion in the 500 cc class in 1936. The same year, he also won the Gold Medal in the six-day trial and in 1937 he was asked to join the Auto Union Grand Prix team as reserve driver. During these years, H.P. Müller the motorcycle racer changed to Hermann Müller, the grand prix driver, a name change, enforced by the top of the German Motor Sport Authority during the thirties. His first start was at the Eifel GP 1937 and he became works driver in 1938. His best results were third places at the 1937 Coppa Acerbo and sharing the drive with Rosemeyer at the Masaryk Circuit. He was wounded in French GP crash 1938. In 1939, Müller came second to Lang in the Kahlenberg Mountain Climb where he beat Stuck in both runs. At the Grossglockner Mountain Climb, Müller again won the first heat by one second but in the second heat, he lost too much time in the fog, finishing third. He won the French Grand Prix and came second at the German Grand Prix. In the four races of the 1939 European Championship Müller outscored Lang and would under normal circumstances have been the 1939 European Champion, the equivalent of today’s World Champion. But after the conclusion of the series, the A.I.A.C.R. could not meet and the German ONS changed the existing rules to the favour of Lang and declared him the champion instead.


Apparently someone is aware of what is going on over on the bike side of the house! :)

#134 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 17:14

I hope, Leif Snellman forgives me, but I c/p this from his homepage without his authority at http://www.kolumbus....lman/d4.htm#MAA. Does anybody see anything familiar in the text? Interesting, not so? Plagiarism? But not on my part. The Internet is really small! Here is Leif's text.

Hermann Paul Müller (D)
21 Nov 1909 - 30 Dec 1975

Born 1909 in Bielefeld, Müller started racing motorcycles in 1929 with a 500 cc Imperia, then changed to JAP for dirt track. In 1931 he joined the Victoria factory team where he became German Champion in the 600cc sidecar class in 1932. After Victoria stopped racing at the end of 1933, H.P. Müller raced as a privateer with his 350 cc Victoria with JAP engine during 1934 and early 1935 until Auto Union gave him a new 500 cc factory DKW. With this machine he became German Champion in the 500 cc class in 1936. The same year, he also won the Gold Medal in the six-day trial and in 1937 he was asked to join the Auto Union Grand Prix team as reserve driver. During these years, H.P. Müller the motorcycle racer changed to Hermann Müller, the grand prix driver, a name change, enforced by the top of the German Motor Sport Authority during the thirties. His first start was at the Eifel GP 1937 and he became works driver in 1938. His best results were third places at the 1937 Coppa Acerbo and sharing the drive with Rosemeyer at the Masaryk Circuit. He was wounded in French GP crash 1938. In 1939, Müller came second to Lang in the Kahlenberg Mountain Climb where he beat Stuck in both runs. At the Grossglockner Mountain Climb, Müller again won the first heat by one second but in the second heat, he lost too much time in the fog, finishing third. He won the French Grand Prix and came second at the German Grand Prix. In the four races of the 1939 European Championship Müller outscored Lang and would under normal circumstances have been the 1939 European Champion, the equivalent of today’s World Champion. But after the conclusion of the series, the A.I.A.C.R. could not meet and the German ONS changed the existing rules to the favor of Lang and declared him the champion instead.
Müller was a Leutnant at the Luftwaffe, active in the aero engine factory in Litzmannstadt. He was not flying. At the end of the war in 1945, he went back to Auto Union in Chemnitz, East Germany, where he had to do prisoner work, which was better than being deported to Siberia. He then worked as a woodcutter, sent his family (wife Mariele and two baby boys) to Bielefeld in West Germany, where he arrived separately in December that year. In 1946, when he raced bikes again, he changed his name back to H.P. Müller. His wife was a great supporter at the races, managing his pits. He became West-German Champion on a 250 cc DKW in 1947 and 1948. In 1950 and 1951 he became German Champion in the 125 cc class driving a factory DKW. The following year he drove the Italian Mondial and the Schnell-Horex in 1953. He joined the factory NSU team in 1954 and won with them the World Championship in the 250 cc class in 1955 at age 45. In 1956 he set world records with a NSU record bike at the Bonneville saltflats of Utah. Thereafter he worked for Auto Union and at DAF in Holland and eventually returned to the Auto Union Press Department in Ingolstadt where he died after a long illness in 1975.
(Info supplied by Hans Etzrodt)

#135 Don Capps

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 18:25

Gee, no wonder it seemed familiar! But, I have grow used to seeing my 250F data all over the place -- such is life in the technotronic age...

#136 David J Jones

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 19:54

I must plead guilty to stirring things up on the bike side of this house. I asked the notable GP rider if he knew OF HPM and he refrered to the nickname of Happy Muller see thread on Hermann Paul Muller


#137 alessandro silva

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 20:34

NO DON!!
You can’t dismiss such things just shrugging your shoulders. It is DISGUSTING. In the scientific community - as global and not larger than the TNF membership -
where I live my real life, where the web is used a lot to have the results of our research readily available, such a behaviour would be considered as the one of a gangster and the culprit would put himself automatically outside of it. I have been around the motoring history part of the web for just one year (thanks to the wonderful 8w people) and having “published” something - not very much indeed - I incurred already in episodes of plagiarism at my expenses. Also data that I privately provided have been misused. I do not think that it is a problem with the “technotronic age” but just of DISHONESTY or - in the better instances - of GUILTY SLOPPINESS.
I tried to raise the problem posting - a few months ago - on a thread about “sources”. By taking that detour I tried to explain that quoting sources is a way of avoiding sloppiness for sure and maybe also plagiarism. I got rebuffed by a friend for whom I have the maximum of personal esteem and I gave up, but since then I AM PERSONALLY BOYCOTTING all sites that do not quote their sources. I have become a sort of a “scanner wizard” myself. Should I work with it on my books and build up my site and call myself an historian? I AM FED UP and it is a real shame since through the TNF I have met marvelous people with whom I am privately corresponding sharing information and the love for our sport and I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE UP on that.

#138 Don Capps

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Posted 05 July 2001 - 23:08



ALCON -- Stand By to Stand BY!

I have started putting the RVM column on the 1939 EC together. Right now, I am looking at getting it out for the 25 July issue. However, what that really means is I should have it done by the end of next week for review. I am out of town from about the 15th to the 19th and then away from my materials until the evening of the 22nd.

I will be working on it all this weekend.

I will email it out for review Not Later Than either the 12th or the 13th. I have to have it to Bira NLT the morning of the 23rd, although the earlier the better.

I don't have all my materials with me, so if Roger or someone can scan the Autosport article where Chris Nixon reveals the scoring system, that would be appreciated. Any other such data not on this thread that you might think I would need can be either posted here or sent to be via email.

I am putting this out as a "Special" RVM report as a result of work done by members of the Nostalgia Forum.

Have at it!

PS:

Alessandro,

The point is well taken. I don't mind if folks use information I have developed since, after all, information does no one any good if it is gathering dust somewhere. I only mind when they misrepresent it as entirely their work. Taking the information and then adding, moving it around, or applying it in a way that better suits the application is fine and dandy. Sloppiness is another story altogether.

I am in the middle of another project in which I consider myself, at best, only as the "compiler." It concerns US military & naval aircraft designations and serials. The data is floating around, but putting it into a format that allows it to be used is a real bear. I am giving credit to all the sources I have tapped into when I finally wind it up -- if ever...



#139 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 July 2001 - 05:08

I don't have all my materials with me, so if Roger or someone can scan the Autosport article where Chris Nixon reveals the scoring system, that would be appreciated. Any other such data not on this thread that you might think I would need can be either posted here or sent to be via email.



Is this the March 1987 article that Hans referred to? If so, I can do it, bu not until after Goodwood.

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#140 David J Jones

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Posted 06 July 2001 - 09:09

Don / Hans

I have looked back further in my records and found that when I gave the details to the IOMTT I did refer to the details having come from 'The Golden Age of Motor Racing' site.

I am sorry if by doing this I have upset or offended anyone.

I will say that they were most courteous and obliging in their timely replies which is more than can be said for the motoring authorities I have contacted in the UK about this matter.

#141 Don Capps

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Posted 07 July 2001 - 02:10

Should anyone be interested, I am making some good progress on the article. I have made the editorial decision to include background material on the previous AIACR/CSI championships to show that chaos and confusion seem be a commonplace occurrance in these matters.

And my respect for Hans just keeps climbing as I juggle all the information around to make a good story out of this.

I finally had to stop since I forgot to eat since I started working on this after I came in from PT this afternoon!

I hope I don't screw this up for you guys.

I plan to send the draft out as soon as I can by email to several of you to look over and eyeball for errors. Y'all will get any credit for this, I'll accept any balme for errors.

Don't be bashful to send me any new ideas or angles on this.

I am still aiming for the RVM on the 25th. Plus, there might be a surprise on Wednesday...

Later!


#142 David J Jones

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Posted 07 July 2001 - 10:38

Don

The strange thing I find about this topic is how it remained undercover for so long before resurfacing and why most historians and notables get it so wrong. As stated before I vaguely recall being told of it by my elder brother in the early 50's.
A few thoughts follow

Historically it is one that should have been resolved as part of the de-nazification process taking place in Germany (West and East) between 1946 and 1950 - but for some reason it was not. So why?
Germany was banned from International Motorsport after the war because of the way it had been used for propaganda purposes between 1934 and 1939.
It is indeed most strange that the unsatisfactory result in the 1939 European Championship was not addressed or ratified by the authorities between 1945 and 1950.
Do the AIACR records exist? Does the FIA have them? Would they reveal them?

There was a publication from HMSO issued I think in the 40's detailing the German use of Motor Racing. Is it possible that the data we are seeking was accumulated and although not published is lying in acardboard box in the Public Records Office. Is it classified as not for release?

I understood from enquiries that the RAC representative to the AIACR was an infrequent attendee at meetings.
Not that I would have expected attendance after 3/9/39 anyway. Motor racing before 1939 was the province of the rich and aristocracy and this did not start to break down until after the war. It was very much a minority sport in the UK and was treated as such.

The period between 3/9/39 and 10/5/40 was a strange one in itself and was known as the 'phoney war' It would seem that Germany was waiting for peace to resume and it seems that there were frequent peace feelers being put out. Hunhlein's declaration was made right in the middle of this timespan.

Having mentioned the key player in all of this - does anyone know whatever became of him?

The A-U factory at Zwickau was in the East German (Soviet) control at the end of the war and I believe that most of their records as well as the cars were transported East to Russia where they were treated as examples of fascist capitalist decadence. This would explain the silence from that quarter on the subject.
I would not have expected an appeal from drivers or officials as perhaps the extent of Nazi influence extended long beyond the end of the war.

Sorry to have gone on and on here but I wished to put these points forward for consideration in the overall scope of things.

#143 Don Capps

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 04:23

In Case History, by Norman Smith (Autosport, 1958), there is an intriguing sentence in the discussion of the Swiss Grand Prix: “Lang’s victory deservedly gave him the leadership in the 1939 European Championship, but the outbreak of the war ruined the season and officially the title was never awarded, which was jolly hard luck for a very fine driver.”

I have read this book any number of times and this is the first time that this sentence jumped out and hit me.

I have decided to work on the article until it is "right" and not hold myself to a deadline. However, I should have a rough draft by the end of the week to send out to a few brave souls who will have to slog through it. Right now I plan to send it to Hans, Leif, Roger (do I have your email?), David (ditto on the email), and any others who want to gnash their teeth at what is written and question my (obviously low) intelligence.

At this moment, it is about 22 pages and growing. That means that it far too long for RVM or an Atlas article. Or, one can easily imagine what the reaction of my 'bud' Paul Fernley at Motor Sport would be if this showed up in his email. :lol: I wonder if he would get Chris Nixon to send me a reply like he did David?

Speaking of whom, anyone have any idea of how to contact Chris Nixon? I think for starters, he needs to retain Hans & Leif as co-editors for a revised edition of Racing the Silver Arrows. :up:

#144 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 06:09

Originally posted by Don Capps
.....At this moment, it is about 22 pages and growing. That means that it far too long for RVM or an Atlas article......

Don, 22 pages! Are you serious? Who is going to read that? As far as I can remember, the goal was to explain the 1939 situation and attract FIA top brass. You have to make sure they can consume the story. Ten minutes reading, not more! Therefore I strongly recommend bringing the main story to within two pages and possibly adding anything else important as appendices in smaller print as optional reading. The reader has to be able to digest the main story within ten minutes. You are losing a great part of your audience with such a whale of a story.

I strongly recommend taking your 25 pages and extracting the essential parts to tell the entire story in not more than 2000 words. You probably are not aware of the fact that only very few people are interested in this stuff and nobody except a few fanatics are going to digest 25 pages with no place to rest their eyes.

#145 Don Capps

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 15:27

Actually, I have The Article and then I have The Brief (the two or three pages giving the bare facts). I decided to write The Article in part because I am at heart an academic sort (...long-winded...) and I think that at some point there needs to be available the thesis to explain the rationale and the details of the situation.

I think there is a growing, if slow, acceptance of the Etzrodt/Sheldon case for H.P. Muller being the 1939 European Champion among motor racing historians.

My thought is to provide The Brief with The Article as background material. We do this routinely in my world: I get a short memo of a page or so with a thick wad of supporting documentation. According to my familiarity with the subject, I either skim or read the annexes provided. Once The Article is done, I plan to extract various documents that Hans has dug up as annexes to The Brief.

And besides, The Article has to be written someday, so why not today? The pity is that so few seem to have any interest in the story, only the bottom line. However, that Professor Capps talking.

Or to put it another way, Chris Nixon has a big, well-written, and very popular book in which Hermann Lang is definitely identified as the 1939 Euro Champion. Despite evidence to the contrary, Nixon is reluctant to recant that belief it seems. I send in two or three pages stating that the 1939 Euro Champion is H.P. Muller to Mosley & Ecclestone at the FIA. Take a guess as to what their reply will be....

With that also in mind, I have a "Readers' Digest" version in mind for putting the results of Hans' &tc, research into a magazine article. This is perhaps a step that has to be done prior to going to the FIA in my opinion after giving it some thought.

It is an irritating personal "thing" that I have, which is whenever possible (or even when it is almost impossible) to lay everything out in writing and "tell" the story in as much detail as I can before I start whittling it away to what fits the medium. It is an old-fashioned, time-consuming, and often frustrating (to both others as well as myself) way to work. However, that was how I was trained to work as a historian. As a staff officer, however, I often got only a few lines into which to compress incredibly complex issues for either information or decision-making purposes. Actually, although I was really very good at this (I did make it to colonel! :lol: ), I was never all that comfortable with it.

Given my druthers, I like to have the context and as much as the story as I can get about an issue. Needless to say, as mentioned, this is not compatible with how Moderns operate.

Unless there are any violent objections, I will trudge along with the baseline opus and then take it from there. As the little penguin says, "I gotta be me..."

#146 David J Jones

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 18:58

Don

The approach seems just fine to me.

Are we still going to see the finished article when it is complete?

Will this be both the summary and complete shooting match?

Thinking about your earlier post mentioning the Swiss GP deciding the European Championship in Langs favour - I think this can be traced back to the source Chris Nixon used. This is of course Lang himself. This occurred to me this afternoon as I was leafing through a book analysing the facts surrounding the death of the Red Baron in 1918. The statement made in this book was that facts get stretched to suit the circumstances and they (the authors) had a tremendous task to get at the truth and even now it is not fully accepted by historians. The problem is that as time progresses the incorrect statements get repeated and repeated until they take on a status as the accepted truth.

In this case we have quite a number of persons misqouting the facts since 1939 just as we have here in the UK a TV channel - who shall remain nameless - quoting Ascari as having won 9 successive WC races.

I am a stickler for the truth and only the truth becoming the historical fact so I am probably becoming a pain in not letting go of things like these.
I am just thankful that there are people like Hans and Leif who have invested considerable time in establishing the facts beyond question.

I was reminded last night whilst I was watching a TV program of some things that might be relavent to the overall scope of things
- if you are interested I will let you have the details

#147 Don Capps

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 20:55

I worked on this some at lunchtime and will return to it this evening. I have the Nixon article from Autosport at the house, so I will have to wait until this weekend to take a look at it.

Actually, once you really just lay the whole season out and then take the various statements made here and there and start putting them all together, you get more questions, but at least they are not all the same ones you started with.... :lol: ....and a really interesting story emerges from all of this. I am sure that by the time I am happy with the thing and willing to send it out for review, it will be more like two or three weeks from now, so don't hold your breath, sports fans.

#148 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 21:06

Take your time by all means, Don - it's taken 62 years to sort this out: another couple of weeks won't make a lot of difference!!:) :)

"Lord - give me patience, but please, let it be soon" (St Richard of Chichester)

#149 Don Capps

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Posted 11 July 2001 - 16:32

I need a few favors from this forum's version of the Baker Street Irregulars:

1) Any references by Lang, Caracciola, Neubauer, or von Brauchitsch (or any other drivers if known) in their books concerning the Euro Championship and then 1939 in particular. The reference should provide the quotation and a citation including the page number, if possible. Thanks in advance.

2) Hans, could you provide me with material you have developed similar to the two items you sent me concerning the Belgian GP about two years ago? As you can imagine, I am sifting and sorting among several (often many...) choices at times and need a steadying hand as a guide. The info on Spa has always served me well whenever I think of this project.

3) If anybody has perhaps a better clue than I do as to the fololwing it would be appreciated: a) the points distribution for the 1925-1927 AIACR/CSI WC standings and any words of wisdom on this series b) the 1931 & 1932 Euro Championship points distribution, events, and any words of wisdom -- I made some notes on this earlier, but apparently either misplaced them or I have less then I realized on this series

Any information can be emailed to me and I will be very grateful for any assistance.

Last night, I actually framed a very rough working draft as a baseline to start getting down to serious business. The questions I am asking are a result of this laydown. Chaos and confusion seem to be watchwords for the three AIACR/CSI championships that I am concerned with. There seems to be a trend and the 1939 EC needs to be placed within that context.

I am very concerned about context since without it, the "Lang or Muller?" question becomes just "another" trivia item.

As an aside, I would be really curious if anyone really has a real clue about when the AIACR was formed. After mulling things over and reflecting on what I am seeing, I tend to think Hans is more correct than I realized at the time. I now have a gut feeling that the AIACR was formed in either 1921 or 1922 and the CSI formed in 1922 as its sporting arm. Often when we are talking about the AIACR, it is actually the CSI that is at the bottom of things. Comments or insight gratefully received on this.

Thanks in advance, everybody. And, Hans, I hope I can do true justice to the work that you have done.

#150 David McKinney

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Posted 11 July 2001 - 20:58

I have not forgotten a request made back there a bit for the quote from the Portuguese paper O Volante: I don't have it about my person at the moment, but am trying to get hold of it...