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1939 European Championship


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#151 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 11 July 2001 - 22:24

Originally posted by Don Capps

1) Any references by Lang, Caracciola, Neubauer, or von Brauchitsch (or any other drivers if known) in their books concerning the Euro Championship and then 1939 in particular. The reference should provide the quotation and a citation including the page number, if possible. Thanks in advance.

Here is one, I might have not yet quoted in TNF thread. Günther Molter in Rudolf Caracciola, Titan am Volant,Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart, 1995, page 169: "Hermann Lang became European Champion 1939, reward for a brilliant career, which unfortunately the war ended temporarily."

Originally posted by Don Capps
2) Hans, could you provide me with material you have developed similar to the two items you sent me concerning the Belgian GP about two years ago? As you can imagine, I am sifting and sorting among several (often many...) choices at times and need a steadying hand as a guide. The info on Spa has always served me well whenever I think of this project.

What exactly are you talking about? Statistics or text? And what then for which events? I thought everything is on Leif’s home page, not so? Please be more specific in your needs, so I can look for it and send it as attachments. :confused:

Originally posted by Don Capps
3) If anybody has perhaps a better clue than I do as to the fololwing it would be appreciated: a) the points distribution for the 1925-1927 AIACR/CSI WC standings and any words of wisdom on this series b) the 1931 & 1932 Euro Championship points distribution, events, and any words of wisdom -- I made some notes on this earlier, but apparently either misplaced them or I have less then I realized on this series

I am working on a story about these championships myself, Don. Should I then forfit my project and give you all information? Do we really have to dig that deep (into the twenties) to explain the 1939 situation? The 1925 rules I had just sent 2 days ago to Quintin Cloud and he immediately published them on his site at <http://www.formula1results.com>. Interestingly enough, he did not find it necessary to confirm receipt of my 1925 worksheet and answer my questions. So, as you can see, I am still learning about new styles of communication, even at my high age. :lol:

Originally posted by Don Capps
Chaos and confusion seem to be watchwords for the three AIACR/CSI championships that I am concerned with. There seems to be a trend and the 1939 EC needs to be placed within that context.

I gave a basic explanation in the list guidelines at Leif’s homepage at <http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/>. Is my text not clear enough, Don? My intent was to eliminate confusion.

Originally posted by Don Capps
As an aside, I would be really curious if anyone really has a real clue about when the AIACR was formed. After mulling things over and reflecting on what I am seeing, I tend to think Hans is more correct than I realized at the time. I now have a gut feeling that the AIACR was formed in either 1921 or 1922 and the CSI formed in 1922 as its sporting arm. Often when we are talking about the AIACR, it is actually the CSI that is at the bottom of things. Comments or insight gratefully received on this.

I thought there should be something to that effect in my list guidelines at the beginning under the heading Grandes Épreuves. On my next trip to Europe I will try to find magazine reports about AIACR and/or CSI beginnings in the early twenties.

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#152 fines

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Posted 11 July 2001 - 23:08

Originally posted by David McKinney
I have not forgotten a request made back there a bit for the quote from the Portuguese paper O Volante: I don't have it about my person at the moment, but am trying to get hold of it...

Thanks David, I'll wait patiently! :) :)

#153 Don Capps

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Posted 12 July 2001 - 16:03

Hans,

Failure to open one's eyes is often the reason for questions....

I had to rush back to Virginia last night after my son was in a car accident. He is okay, the verdict is still out on the car, and the value of seatbelts and airbags was once again demonstrated.

Most of what I asked about is here in my files in Virigina. I am making only passing references to the 1925/1927 & 1931/1932 championships as both an idea of where the scoring system came from and how the results were often a matter of great patience....

#154 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 15 July 2001 - 21:22

Don,
The following threads contain information about championships prior to 1935.

http://www.atlasf1.c...ld Championship
http://www.atlasf1.c...ld Championship
http://www.atlasf1.c...ld Championship

#155 Don Capps

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Posted 16 July 2001 - 01:30

Despite the chaos & confusion of the past several days, I have managed to gather up something for a short, no-nonsense article that I am sending to Hans ASAP for his review and editing. After that, we will run it by the editorial staff (you know who you are....) and then take approprate action.

I will also continue to work the full-blown version since it has to be done someday....

#156 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 16 July 2001 - 04:12

Don,
I got myself a new pencil sharpener. ;)

#157 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 July 2001 - 11:17

In the book MERCEDES in Motorsport by Alan Henry, California, USA, February 2001, on page 39, the author writes about Hermann Lang "Seven years later he was European Champion, having dominated the 1939 season at the wheel of a factory Mercedes W163 with five wins out of eight starts."

Twisting the words here a little bit? :confused:

#158 David J Jones

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Posted 13 August 2001 - 09:46

Don / Hans. Has the article progressed further forward?

Or are investigations still ongoing?

I have found Chris Nixons address if that is useful in any way. Since he replied to my letter to Motorsport I was thinking of recontacting him but was waiting for the outcome of this thread.

Shall I go ahead anyway?

#159 Don Capps

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Posted 13 August 2001 - 13:29

With Hans' revisions and some other minor editing, the article was sent to Paul Fearnley for his consideration. He told me that he is considering it and will be in touch again soon. I will wait a bit longer and then bug him about it.

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#160 David McKinney

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Posted 24 September 2001 - 21:21

Hans, Michael, Don:
I know it's a while since I made my promise, but I have finally managed to get hold of the report from the Portuguese journal O Volante No.483, 15 August 1939. Apologies for the delay: it was a matter of waiting till my German source returned to Lisbon for his holiday!

The report reads as follows:

Muller encontra-se á frente do Campeonato Europeu dos Condutorres

Em Outubro último, a Comissão Sportiva Internacional, resolveu manter o campionato europeu dos condutores, baseadó na classificação por pontos, e para o qual contariam os Grandes Prémios da Bélgica, da França, da Alemanha, da Suissa e da Itália. O delegado belga sugeriu então que a maneira de classificação fôsse modificada. Tendo-se juntado ultimamente em Reims, quando da realização do Grande Prémio francês, os delegados dos automóveis clubs interessados, foi resolvido adopta para o campionato europeu a fórmula do campionato francês dos condutores, isto é: em cada prova serão atríbuidos 10 pontos ao 1ª, 6 ao 2ª, 5 ao 3ª, 4 ao 4ª, 3 ao 5º e um ponto a todos os outros classificados on que tenham partido.
Como duas provas se haviam realizado, os Grandes Prémios da Bélgica e da França, a classificação do campeonoato europeu estava ultimamente assim estabelecida:
Lang e Muller, ex-aequo com 11 pontos; Meier e Sommer, ex-aequo com 7 pontos; von Brauchitsch e Hasse, ex-aequo com 6; Le Bégue, com 5; Etancelin, 4; Mazaud, 3; Carraciola e Nuvolari, ex-aequo com 2; Stuck, Farina, Gérard, Dreyfus, Mays, Raph, Matra, Chinetti, Mandirola cada um dêstes com 1 ponto
* * *
Depois da disputa do Grande Prémio de Alamanha, terceira prova que contava para o campeonato, a classificação ficou sendo: Muller, 17 pontos, Lang e Caracciola, 12; Meir e Sommer, 8; von Brauchitsch e Hasse, 7.
Ao vencedor será coferida a medalha de ouro da Associação Internacional.


A translation might be:

Muller takes the lead in the European Drivers’ Championship

Last October, the International Sporting Commission decided to
keep the European drivers’ championship points system, with
the Grands Prix of Belgium, France,
Germany, Switzerland and Italy to count. The Belgian delegate then
suggested that the system be modified. Meeting in Reims, for the running of the French
GP, the delegates of the interested automobile clubs decided
to adopt for the European championship the formula of
the French drivers’ championship, that is: in each round 10
points will be given to the winner, 6 to 2nd, 5 to 3rd, 4 to 4th, 3 to 5th
and a point to all others classified. As
two rounds had been completed, the GPs of Belgium and
France, the order of the European Championship was
established thus: Lang and Muller, equal with 11 points; Meier and
Sommer, equal with 7 points; von Brauchitsch and Hasse,
equal with 6; Le Bégue, with 5; Etancelin, 4; Mazaud, 3;
Carraciola and Nuvolari, 2 each; Stuck, Farina, Gérard,
Dreyfus, Mays, Raph, Matra, Chinetti, Mandirola each with
1 point
* * *
After the running of the German GP, third
round of the championship, the order was:
Muller, 17 points; Lang and Caracciola, 12; Meir and Sommer, 8; von
Brauchitsch and Hasse, 7.
The International Association will confer a gold medal on the winner

#161 Don Capps

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Posted 24 September 2001 - 23:16

David,

Thanks. That is very interesting and the sort of thing that would have probably wouldn't have seen the light of day any time soon.

Paul tells me that the article is definitely on the short list for an issue at the turn of the year. I will keep everyone informed as to what is happening.

#162 Vitesse2

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Posted 25 September 2001 - 11:07

I don't read Portuguese (where's Chico and Cabianca when we need them?) but I think your translation has one tiny but very important fault David - I think this bit:

um ponto a todos os outros classificados on que tenham partido.

must say in effect "one point to all who have taken part" (not sure what the "outros classificados" bit is), since otherwise the interim tables given don't make sense. If you add one point for every starter, they work out exactly, except for the omission of Dick Seaman (presumably because he was dead:cry: )

However, extending these scores gives a total of 22 points for Lang and 21 for Muller. It makes Lang champion, but of course NOT with 23 points!! So maybe someone at the ONS couldn't add up ....:)

#163 David J Jones

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Posted 26 September 2001 - 06:58

An interesting post David.

However I must suggest we procede with caution here as I find the wording that a 'meeting of interested parties took place' makes me a little suspicious - I would wish to know just who they were!

Although it goes a long way perhaps to indicating maybe how the ONS arrived at their total I have to say that I am unable to accept it without confirmation from independant sources and in particular the AIACR.

Portugal and in particular Lisbon was a favourite point at which the SS chose to make contact with other 'interested parties' in the years 1937 - 1945 which is perhaps why I am sceptical.

I will attempt to keep an open mind so I am going to delve back further back in other posts to compare the facts and dates we have already seen with those mentioned in David's post.

#164 David J Jones

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Posted 27 September 2001 - 07:53

I had a quick look at the early posts in this thread yesterday.

I find it difficult to understand why if the details given in the article from Portugal are correct that the German press were not representing these details at the time of the German or Swiss GPs. In fact they would seem to be representing the situation as if the 1938 scoring system were still in place.

Whilst the article may indicate a way in which Lang could outscore Muller over the four races it does not agree with the table published by Chris Nixon in 'Racing the Silver Arrows'
As a reminder this table did not feature Muller in the top six!

Furthermore it does not tie up with Lang's own statements, well represented by Nixon, which state that he won the championship from Carraciola.

I feel it merits a review of all publications in all countries between July and December 1939 to see if we can find details to substantiate the Portugese article.

#165 fines

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Posted 28 September 2001 - 19:25

Thanx David, I feel I'm on the right track...;)

#166 Marcor

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 15:55

In "Les Sports" (Belgian Newspaper), I've only found two little articles about the 1939 European Championship scoring system.

Just before the Swiss GP, it was
"As we know, the Italian GP wont'be run this year. So today the European Champion's title will be awarded. It looks to us that this title can not escape to Hermann Müller."


and Thursday 22th August (two days after the Swiss GP):
" At the conlusion of the Swiss GP, the placing of the European championship is:
1st- Lang, 22 points
2nd- Müller, 21 points
3rd- Caracciola, 18 points.

The chances are that this placing will be final as the Italian GP, last round of the championship, will be most probably cancelled."


Note the contradiction between those two articles about the cancellation of the Italian GP.

One week later there was the mobilization...

On Sunday 24th, September, the Automobile Club de France made official the placing of the French driver championship, as the last round couldn't be organized. Raymond Sommer, the present leader of the championship, became champion.

After this date, nothing about motorsport in Les Sports except 2 races in South-America (the Argentine 500 miles at Rafaelo and the Circuit Copec at Santiago Chili), the announcement of the death of Laury Schell (December) and the overall placing of the AAA championship (1- Wilbur Shaw (1000 points), 2- Jimmy Snider (925), 3- Ted Horn (685))...

#167 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 22:11

Originally posted by Marcor
In "Les Sports" (Belgian Newspaper), I've only found two little articles about the 1939 European Championship scoring system.

Just before the Swiss GP, it was
"As we know, the Italian GP wont'be run this year. So today the European Champion's title will be awarded. It looks to us that this title can not escape to Hermann Müller."


and Thursday 22th August (two days after the Swiss GP):
" At the conlusion of the Swiss GP, the placing of the European championship is:
1st- Lang, 22 points
2nd- Müller, 21 points
3rd- Caracciola, 18 points.

The chances are that this placing will be final as the Italian GP, last round of the championship, will be most probably cancelled."


Well, those figures agree exactly with the Portuguese source: after the German GP Müller led the table with 17 points to Lang's and Caracciola's 12 each. It would have looked fairly certain that Müller would win as he would have only to finish second in Switzerland to be unbeatable, even if Lang or Caracciola won. As it turned out, Lang did win, with Caracciola second. Müller could do no better than fourth and lost out by one point to Lang.

Marc: were there bylines on those two articles? If so, were they written by the same journalist or different ones? If the latter, then that would surely explain the contradiction.

#168 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 September 2001 - 23:00

Just four hours ago I disembarked my ship "United States Lines PATRIOT" (after a beautiful 7-day cruise around the Hawaiian Isles) and was happy to find here the refreshing posts of David McKinney and others.

I don't like to warm up old coffee, so I better don't say too much except this:
Anybody who has not only read this thread but also attempted to do some mathematical calculations of his or her own, should have realized that Chris Nixon's contribution to the 1939 point score just adds to the confusion instead of clarifying it (and this comes from a historian who is known for his meticulous research). For that reason I have ignored his statements about the 1939 European Championship because his conclusion gives the appearance of misleading the reader.

#169 David J Jones

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 09:50

Hans

I must confess to being the person who mentioned that name in this thread again. I did this in an attempt to elaborate a point.
I have refrained from spelling out the name at this juncture to attempt compensation.

Marcor

Thanks for the information from the Belgian papers of 1939. I do not believe the British papers or Journals of this time will be so helpful.
However, I feel the Portugese article named the Belgian representative as the proposer of the scoring system, so I would be looking for further independant sources to back up this detail too.

In spite of my feelings about the British papers/Journals I will endeavour to do this early in the New Year. I have a long vacation in November which will prevent me tackling it this year. Unless that is someone gets in there before me.

#170 Marcor

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 11:29

The first article of Les Sports was written by a journalist of the newspaper. The second seems to be copied out from a dispatch.

Please read Tuesday 22 August (two days after the race) and not Thursday 22 August...


About the Swiss GP the newspaper reported on Thursday (four days after the race) that the result must be changed as there was an error: Hartmann wouldn't be sixth but seventh and Farina would be sixth instead of seventh.

So who was sixth and seventh ?

Nixon said Farina was 6th, Blight and most of the others said Hartmann 6th and Farina 7th...

About the championship, an interesting source would be one from Switzerland, in French, Italian or Geman...

#171 Marcor

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 11:36

David Venables (The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds) also said Farina finished the race in sixth place.

#172 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 12:04

Thanks Marc.

Re Hartmann & Farina: from the look of the result in Sheldon, might this be correction of a lap charting error? Hartmann's time would put him third past the flag, followed by Dreyfus, Ansell, Biondetti, Stuck, von Brauchitsch, Wakefield, Farina, Müller, Nuvolari and Evans.

Farina was apparently only lapped once, while Hartmann and the rest were all lapped at least twice. Sheldon records that Stuck pushed in on the last lap - just the sort of thing to confuse even the most experienced lap charter, especially since he would have been expecting Stuck to arrive before Biondetti and possibly in close company with Farina. Re-examination after the race might have resolved some confusion - just a theory ...

Hartmann's only other race for Mercedes doesn't inspire me to think he would have beaten Farina in a 158 either: 8th in the Eifelrennen, almost a lap behind Lang and the rest of the M-Bs and A-Us.

#173 Marcor

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 12:32

time of Farina: 1h 26' 21" 6/10, lapped once by the leader... (source: Les Sports + David Venables)

Hartmann would be lapped twice.

#174 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 12:47

Marc: sorry, didn't make myself clear, I think. Like you, I'm sure Farina was 6th and Hartmann 7th. But Hartmann's finishing time was 1h25m00.0, so he would have been quite close behind Lang and Caracciola on the road, but two laps behind them.

#175 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 September 2001 - 14:03

From Grand Prix Suisse by Adriano Cimarosti, Hallwag Verlag, Bern, 1992:

1939 Swiss GP Final results
1. H. Lang (Mercedes-Benz) 30 laps, 1h24m47.6s
2. R. Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 30 laps, 1h24m50.7s
3. v. Brauchitsch (Mercedes-Benz) 30 laps, 1h25m57.5s
4. H.P. Müller (Auto Union) 30 laps, 1h27m01.3s
5. T. Nuvolari (Auto Union) 30 laps, 1h27m08.6s
6. G. Farina (Alfa Romeo) 29 laps,
7. H.H. Hartmann (Mercedes-Benz) 28 laps,
8. R. Dreyfus (Maserati) 28 laps,
9. C. Biondetti (Alfa Romeo) 28 laps,
10. H. Stuck (Auto Union) 28 laps,
11. K. Evans (Alfa Romeo) 27,
12. T.P. Wakefield (Maserati) 26 laps,
13. R.E. Ansell (ERA) 25 laps

#176 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 October 2001 - 12:29

My hunt through the 1935 EC magazines wasn’t the only thing I’ve managed this week – I also went through 1939 as well. The motoring magazines of that troubled year are a VERY interesting read! I am afraid, Hans and Don, that the evidence is starting to stack up in favour of Lang …

But, to explain: throughout 1939 (and indeed as far as 1948!) I can find no reference in Motor Sport to the European Championship – it is as though it didn’t exist. The Motor, however, was far more informative, at least towards the end. Despite careful checking, I could find nothing re the Reims meeting referred to by O Volante, but “Grande Vitesse “ of Motor seems to have known of the scores of which we already have evidence from O Volante and Les Sports. All the items below are written by him.

Motor, August 29th 1939 p169
Fahrer Lang
At the moment it seems that Hermann Lang will be European Champion of 1939. He is leading at present with Muller (which is fairly surprising) next up, ahead of Caracciola. The last race counting to the championship is the Italian Grand Prix and it looks as if that won't be held. Instead I fancy there will be a 1500cc race with some such title as the Prix de Monza or something.
Lang has had a marvellous season, winning at Pau, Tripoli, Eifel, Spa and Berne, plus the record for the Grossglockner. When he didn't win he didn't finish, as at Rheims and the German Grand Prix.
Muller, of course, won the French Grand Prix, and was second in the German ditto. Caracciola, next man up, retired at Pau, was second at Tripoli, third at the Eifel, retired at Spa and Rheims, won the German Grand Prix and was second at Berne.
The races counting for the European Championship are: German Grand Prix, French Grand Prix, Swiss Grand Prix and Belgian and Italian Grands Prix - in fact each "national" Grand Prix.
.....
Alterations
The Pontedecimo-Giovi hill-climb (September 4), and the Italian Grand Prix (September 10) will not take place. It may be the September 10 date will be booked for a 1500cc race, as I mentioned before. Italy will not run Formula races for German cars to win, you can't have a National Grand Prix except under the Formula, so the only way out is to scrap the Grand Prix and run it under another name - if at all - for 1500cc carriages.

The alterations section has the sound of a "Stop press" to me. It is certainly the last paragraph ...

Motor August 29th 1939, p178
European Champion, 1939?
Great racing drivers may come and great racing drivers may, alas, go (although Nuvolari goes on for ever), but rarely in motor racing history has there been so meteoric a career, or for that matter so meteoric a driver, as young Hermann Lang, the quiet little German ex-mechanic who is now the fastest driver in Grand Prix racing.
You may or may not agree with the whole principle of Grand Prix racing, but it must be admitted that at present this sort of racing is the highest peak to which the sport has ever attained, and the men who handle these ultra-light cars at nearly 200mph in full road-racing trim are undoubtedly super-men. There are so few that they can be counted on the fingers.
Of all these, pre-eminent to-day is Lang, typical of his kind. Quiet, reserved, even shy, he is quite content to take Number Three in the Mercedes-Benz team, but his consistent string of victories has displaced the great champion Caracciola and it looks as if Lang will be declared European Champion for 1939.
So far this year he has won six events - every one in which he finished at all, for he retired in two. In practice he usually makes the fastest lap, and all this with a modesty and absence of that "behold me, the great man!" which characterizes all the really first-class drivers.
Lang is small, but broad of shoulder. He is 27 years of age - the ideal age for a racing driver - and has a great future before him. He left school to become a mechanic, and when 18 took to motor-cycle competition work in his spare time, and did particularly well in hill-climbs, both with solo machines and sidecars. In 1931 he was German Sidecar Champion. In 1933 he joined Mercedes-Benz in the racing and research department and helped to build the old 750kg Formula cars. It was then that Luigi Fagioli, who was driving for Mercedes at the time, picked him out to be his own mechanic, and thus it was Lang began to learn the intricate technique of motor racing from a wily old-hand who knew every trick of the game.
In 1935 Lang got his first wheel in the Eifelrennen and finished fifth, and was fifth again in 1936, showing great promise without a reckless desire to show off and beat the masters. In 1937 he began to show what he could really do by winning the Tripoli Grand Prix and the amazing race at the Avus in rapid succession. In the Italian Grand Prix he challenged the great Caracciola himself, racing wheel to wheel, sometimes getting ahead, sometimes a length behind, and finished almost level.
Last year he won at Tripoli and Leghorn, and was second in two races, third in another. this year he has won six events - Pau, Tripoli again, Eifel, Belgian Grand Prix, and Swiss Grand Prix, plus the Grossglockner hill-climb record.

Note that this appears in the same issue as the Fahrer Lang piece and the last-minute announcement of the cancellation of the Italian GP and must be a prepared article. It is also in a section of the magazine called “Personal”, rather than contained within the sport section.

Motor September 12th 1939 p239
Hermann Lang, I suppose, must be adjudged European Champion, and Johnny Wakefield is the BRDC Road Racing star man and Ian Connell the Track star winner - at least moral winners. I expect the German boys are at the moment more concerned with being Storm Leaders and Staffel Korps Ober-whatnots and things.

This was “Grande Vitesse”’s last article (apart from a farewell) in the last of his regular On Road and Track columns for the Motor before he went off to war “swapping his typewriter for a Webley” as his successor Short Stroke put it.. Without doubt, from the tone of the other items on the page, he was clearing his desk. He contributed many feature articles during the war and returned to the Motor when peace broke out.

So, there we have it – an authoritative British press source stating quite clearly that Lang would be champion, backing up our other sources from Portugal and Belgium. So come on guys, get digging for details on that Reims meeting – it must be there somewhere, in Italy, France, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Spain or somewhere

#177 Don Capps

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Posted 26 October 2001 - 13:00

Great work!

At the moment it seems that Hermann Lang will be European Champion of 1939.

Hermann Lang, I suppose, must be adjudged European Champion...


But, I don't see anything there that actually lays out why it was Lang and not Müller?

However, the information above has been repeated seemingly endlessly and seemingly without much in the way of hard evidence to back up the statement.

Having said that, this is the sort of great work that seems to be lacking when we delve into these areas. All these pieces, as confusing as they seem to be on the surface and even contradictory, flesh out the puzzle and add to our knowledge.

Let me once again say that it is still my opinion that Lang was easily the class of the year. Had there been an "Autosport" and I was the editor and there had been an "Autosport Top 10" -- Lang would have been my #1 on the list.

#178 Vitesse2

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Posted 26 October 2001 - 13:37

Originally posted by Don Capps
But, I don't see anything there that actually lays out why it was Lang and not Müller?


Perhaps "GV" intended to give the table in his annual review at the end of the year? Time precluded my checking that (or even whether he actually wrote one!). I also didn't have time to research what he had done in 1936, 1937 or 1938 ...

Nevertheless, we still have the scoring tables from O Volante, which is why I put in the appeal about the Reims meeting ...

#179 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 26 October 2001 - 21:36

About a year ago I posted here the very interesting 1939 snippets from the Swiss Automobil Revue. At the publisher everybody was extremely kind in helping me to obtain all information they had published in their very informative paper. I cannot believe there is more to come from this source and I do not see it coming from other German language magazines either because I have gone through them already. :)

Vitesse 2,
It’s nice to see your initiative. :up:

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#180 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 01:44

Here is one article from the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, August 4, 1939, No. 63, pg. 3 under the title How is the European Championship 1939 doing? which I have never before translated in it’s entirety.

The outcome will be decided in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy has definitely been cancelled. It should generally be known that the results of the “grandes épreuves”, carried out according to the international racing formula, count towards the European Championship (there are the Grands Prix of Belgium, of France, of Germany, of Switzerland and of Italy). After the Grand Prix of Italy in Monza, originally fixed for September 10, has definitely been cancelled because the reconstruction work on the track and grand stands will not be completed at that date, the VI. Grand Prix of Switzerland, taking place on August 20, has acquired the important role of the final run for this year’s European Championship.

In Connection with the races at Spa, Reims and on the Nürburgring, interim classifications of this European Driver Championship have been published in French and German specialty and daily newspapers, which differ greatly from each other and for which we have not stood up until today, simply because they lack any officialism. The A.I.A.C.R. has formerly instructed the President of the Sporting Commission of the Royal Belgian Automobile Club, Mr. Langlois, to survey regarding the classification method of the European Championship at the different national federations who organize a grande épreuve. Mr Langlois had submitted to these federations a calculation scheme, which is based on the (presently) valid French championship. At today’s moment, not all grand prix organizations have commented on this problem, which in the meanwhile does not keep the French press from tracing the standings of the European Championship on the basis of the French championship valid classification system (maximum point system), while on the German side one bases the calculation method on last year’s European Championship (minimum point system), in which a comparison of both classifications results in considerable differences. In this matter we learn from an informed side, that the International Sporting Commission (CSI) will involve themselves in the next days with the European Championship classification 1939. In a way for internal use and with the explicit instruction that no official character applies, we pass on below the interim classifications on the basis of the maximum point system as well as the minimum point system and send you in advance some particulars about the result ascertainment:

Maximum Point System
Victor: 10 points
Second: 6 points
Third: 5 points
Fourth: 4 points
Fifth: 3 points
Other classified and started: 1 point

Minimum Point System
Victor: 1 point
Second: 2 points
Third: 3 points
Fourth: 4 points
Who from the others (whether classified
or retired) has completed:
at least half of victor’s distance: 4 points
at least one third of victor: 5 points
at least one quarter of victor: 6 points
remaining: 7 points

[b]PRESENT STANDING OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP

a) Maximum point system

Driver	Car	B	F	D		Total[/b]

Müller	(A.U.)	1	10	6	=	17

Caratsch	(Mercs)	1	1	10	=	12

Lang	(Mercs)	10	1	1	=	12

Meier	(A.U.)	1	6	1	=	8

Sommer	(Alfa)	4	3	1	=	8

Hasse	(A.U.)	6	-	1	=	7

Brauchits	(Mercs)	5	1	1	=	7

[b]b)  Minimum point system[/b]

Müller	(A.U.)	4	1	2	=	7

Meier	(A.U.)	5	2	4	=	11

Lang	(Mercs)	1	4	7	=	12

Caratsch	(Mercs)	6	7	1	=	14

Brauchits	(Mercs)	3	5	6	=	14

Sommer	(Alfa)	4	4	7	=	15

Nuvolari	(A.U.)	4	7	4	=	15


#181 David J Jones

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 10:27

Hans

This is most interesting. From the article I can see there is as much confusion on the subject then as now.

But being positive I can begin to understand the statemnts in books stating that, during the Swiss GP, there was an attempt to slow Lang in order for Carraciola to catch and pass him which would have given the championship to the latter (under the max scoring rule)
Does this indicate a decision by the CSI in favour of the max score rule? (the Germans must have been applying the min score rule as their press statements indicate.

However we now have a period of three weeks between 4 August and 1 September in which the CSI / AIACR would have to have sat and decided the issue.
I would question the validity of anything after 1 (or 3) September due to the fact that that hostilities had broken out.

We must though bear in mind that press reports might be just gossip and the only conclusive finding will be the minute from the CSI / AIACR ratifying the change in scoring method.

#182 Leif Snellman

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 13:21

I just noticed one thing.
As most of you perhaps remember, there was a really fierce fight between Caracciola and Lang at the last laps of the Swiss GP:
The track was still wet and Caracciola, cheered on by the crowd, used all his skills to catch Lang. After 20 laps he had closed the gap to 12 seconds. Neubauer gave an order to Lang to slow the pace, but at is was obvious that Caracciola wasn't going to stop the chase, Lang's wife placed herself near Neubauer and urged Lang to speed up again! With 4 laps to go the gap was down to 6 seconds and when the last lap started Lang's margin was just 2 seconds. Both drivers were driving on the limit. Lang made the very last lap in 2:38.4, the fastest lap of the race, to take the victory in the Swiss Grand Prix, 3 seconds in front of Caracciola.

Now if Caracciola had managed to pass Lang at the Swiss GP, with the minimum point system the difference would have been just one point per driver giving Lang 15 and Caracciola 16. However with a maximum points system the whole scenario is totally different!
[b]Actual:[/b]

Lang		10   1   1   10   22

Müller	   1  10   6	4   21 

Caracciola   1   1  10	6   18

Brauchitsch  5   1   1	5   12

Sommer	   4   3   1	1	9

Meier		1   6   1	0	8

Hasse		6   0   1	1	8

Pietsch	  0   0   5	1	6

Dreyfus	  0   1   4	1	6

Nuvolari	 1   1   1	3	6



[b]Caracciola winning the Swiss GP gives :[/b]

Caracciola   1   1  10   10   22

Müller	   1  10   6	4   21 

Lang		10   1   1	6   18

Brauchitsch  5   1   1	5   12
with Caracciola as champ for the fourth time! Now, that would surely give Lang reason to say that he took the championship by beating Caracciola!
It can also put a totally new dimension to Neubauer's order for Lang to slow down!

#183 Vitesse2

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 15:14

Leif: where is that report from? Reading Sheldon, it sounds like a different race:

Once the rain stopped, Caracciola gave up any hope he may have entertained of catching Lang but was only three seconds behind at the finish.

:confused:

Having said that, your logic makes perfect sense!!:)

#184 Leif Snellman

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 18:32

If I only could remember right now! Usually my texts are a bit of Nixon, a bit of Monkhouse, a bit of Pritchard, a bit of Neubauer, a bit of Caracciola, a bit of Lang, a bit of Hull, a bit of Ludvigsen and quite a bit of Etzrodt!;)
Hans, did we ever discuss Bremgarten 1939?

#185 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 29 October 2001 - 19:46

Leif,
Indeed we did, but only the statistics. I like your graph, looking at a hypothetical championship outcome. :D

We have to remember how everything looked just before the start of the 1939 Swiss GP. What were drivers, team managers and even journalists thinking? From all the sources presently known, it is only the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, which clearly stated that before and after the race the plus and minus system controversy was not settled and created a totally absurd situation in the history of world sport: the assessment of a championship was to take place not before but after the conclusion of the series. Remember that the Nazi Government censored the other German language sources within Germany, which may have prevented them from reporting about this bad situation. I don't know about the English press. They probably worried about other things and had by the way lost their top driver, Dick Seaman.

The drivers in the hunt for the championship 'crown' (gold medal) must have been aware of all that before the start of the 1939 Swiss GP and the importance of them winning the race in order to secure the championship.

All these contemplations are quite interesting. However, they don’t bring us closer to figure out how the ONS system had worked exactly. We are still looking for a source, which would enlighten us.

#186 David J Jones

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Posted 30 October 2001 - 13:03

This topic is certainly at an interesting point.

Two scoring systems were being debated as the season reached its climax. As Hans states this was indeed a ludicrous situation - with the French reporting on the maximum scoring rule and the Germans reporting according to the minimum scoring system which was in force in previous years.
It has to be stated that no one can find a document categorically confirming the adoption of the max points scoring system and the date it was ratified. Therefore the previous system, the minimum scoring rules has to be the only one with any form of legality.

It is true that we have articles out of Portugal emanating from a Belgian source which indicate a general agreement from those AIACR affiliates 'entitled to vote' in favour of the max points scoring rule. However we have to ascertain if this was ratified before or after the Swiss GP by the AIACR or the CSI.
This meeting would also have to have taken place before 1 September 1939 to have any validity.

The answer, or lack of a notice proclaiming the change, must lie in the records of those affiliated organisations and the AIACR or CSI.
English records probably will not hold the information because they were not involved with the European Championship and following Seaman's demise interest ceased.

The affiliates concerned are

Belgium
France
Germany
Switzerland
Italy

We know the German records were lost during the war so I believe we should concentrate on the others although it is possible that the Belgian, French and Italian records may also have been lost during the hostilities.

It is possible that the facts as debated in this thread are very embarrasing to Motor Sport's ruling bodies and they will be reluctant to acknowledge Muller as the rightful Champion. ( the only thing which will change this for me would be the date of ratification of the change)

It would seem that the Germans were moving in favour of the change as the ONS and autobiographical memoirs hold up to a revision of scoring method. However the max table still does not match with the published ONS tables in which Muller hardly features at all

As has been previously stated unless proof is found confirming the change we will be left with the unacceptable situation of the European Champion of 1939 being determined by a prejudiced Nazi verdict for propaganda purposes.

Surely this would be the only such Nazi ruling allowed to remain in force!

#187 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 02 November 2001 - 04:40

Here is another article, which I had never translated in it’s entirety. It was published two weeks after the previous story and just the Friday before the Swiss Grand Prix. It is out of the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, August 18, 1939, No. 67, pg. 3 under the title European Championship
Regarding the Grand Prix of Switzerland, counting towards the European Championship, one has just as few clues about the qualification modus on the evening before the decisive battle as at the beginning of the month, when we publicized two unofficial interim classifications. That one does not even know presently, which routes should be applied now towards the calculation, may not yet have happened or have you ever heard, esteemed reader, that the influential authority at a soccer-, tennis-, flying championship etc. assembles at the green table to puzzle out the classification schedule only when the championship is already history? Probably not. However, it is a matter about a completely impossible situation with this year’s European Championship of the AIACR, the World Federation of the Acknowledged Automobile-Clubs and one has to label it directly as a lucky chance that Müller on Auto Union has a clear advantage in the Minimum as well as in the Maximum classification (unofficial they are both), so, in case should he land at one of the foremost positions, the title is certainly his. In order that the public can orient themselves in general outlines about the situation, we reproduce the interim classification of the Maximum and Minimum point system once again:[b]

a) 	Maximum point system.

Driver	Car	B	F	D		Total[/b]

Müller	  (A. U.)	1	10	6	=	17

Caratsch 	(Mercs)	1	1	10	=	12

Lang 	(Mercs)	10	1	1	=	12

Meier 	(A. U.)	1	6	1	=	8

Sommer 	(Alfa)	4	3	1	=	8[b]



b)   Minimum point system.[/b]

Müller	  (A. U.)	4	1	2	=	7

Meier 	(A. U.)	5	2	4	=	11

Lang 	(Mercs)	1	4	7	=	12

Caratsch	(Mercs)	6	7	1	=	14

Brauchits (Mercs)	3	5	6	=	14


#188 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 06:09

Originally posted by Don Capps
.....Paul tells me that the article is definitely on the short list for an issue at the turn of the year. I will keep everyone informed as to what is happening.

Don,
Any news from the other side of the pond? :)

#189 David J Jones

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 10:29

Hans

The article is not in the January issue of Motor Sport and I can't see that it is scheduled for the next issue either as the listed forthcoming items don't seem to drectly indicate it.

While I was on holiday in Florida during November I did have some thoughts about the issue and these focussed on the Calendar situation regarding the title decision.

Sunday August 20 Swiss GP takes place

Tuesday August 22 Results published in Swiss Press

Tuesday August 29 Motor article 'supposing' Lang is Champion

Friday September 1 Germany invades Poland

Sunday September 3 Britain declares war on Germany

Tuesday September 12 Motor article - does not confirm Lang is AIACR Champion or indicate Berne meeting result


Now from all this I can assume (which I know is dangerous) that the meeting due to be held in Berne to decide the scoring issue did not take place before September 1.
I have come to this assumption because your Swiss source did not send you further articles after the August 22 item.

So we seem to be at a point where we can begin to state the following-

There was no AIACR Champion appointed for 1939 before hostilities started
Lang was later appopinted as German Champion by the ONS

and

Despite the existence of two methods of scoring none matches the ONS scores exactly so there must have been an error in these.

Which I think is where we started out although some certain facts have been determined on the way.

#190 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 15:08

David: I'm not sure there WAS a meeting scheduled for Bern to decide this. The piece from Automobile Revue does not categorically state this - it talks about deciding at Bern, but surely that means on the track? If a meeting had been scheduled, surely they would have mentioned it in an issue dated just two days before the race by saying something along the lines of:

By the time you read this the method of scoring for the European Championship will have been decided ...

The fact that they did not and are still talking about the green table of the AIACR indicates to me that they were as much in the dark as we are! Logic dictates that this meeting would have taken place as part of the regular annual "congress" of the AIACR in October, where, as we have seen elsewhere (eg 1935) the most important decisions seem to have been made.

And I think you are rather misrepresenting the evidence from the Motor - the "suppose" comment is from Walkerley's desk-clearing exercise of Sep 12th, not from Aug 29th.

Hans: can I ask you to carefully recheck your translation of the Aug 4th piece? I am wondering whether you might have mixed tenses in this section:

The outcome will be decided in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy has definitely been cancelled. It should generally be known that the results of the “grandes épreuves”, carried out according to the international racing formula, count towards the European Championship (there are the Grands Prix of Belgium, of France, of Germany, of Switzerland and of Italy). After the Grand Prix of Italy in Monza, originally fixed for September 10, has definitely been cancelled because the reconstruction work on the track and grand stands will not be completed at that date, the VI. Grand Prix of Switzerland, taking place on August 20, has acquired the important role of the final run for this year’s European Championship.



Does the original German imply that the the Italian GP has ALREADY BEEN CANCELLED, or are they speculating that IT WILL BE CANCELLED?

#191 Rob29

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 16:03

Quote from Monza Year Book 1963."The 1939 Grand Prix of Italy, was scheduled for September 11th and Italy's motorcycle GP for Sep 24th; the RACI announced that the new Avus-type circuit would be completed in time,but such was not the case so both events were cancelled in August."

#192 David J Jones

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 21:20

Vitesse

From Hans's earlier post containing the Automobile-Revue article of 18 August I believe we can establish that-

No detail was known regarding whether a new scoring system would be used.

That as the Swiss GP had become the final race its results were therefore crucial as regards deciding the Championship.

It is a reasonable assumption to make that a decision regarding ratification of the scoring change would be made at the annual meeting in October - as uaual - but I don't believe this happened. Even were it to be the case it is unfortunate for Lang as the commencement of hostilities on 1 September I believe frustrates his case.

So we would either be left with-

NO European Champion for 1939 and

A German Champion (Lang) appointed by the NSDAP via the ONS.

I did not mean to misrepresent the Motor article of 29 August but having read the post again would point out it only states that it would seem Lang was going to be the Champion. It would be marvellous if we could ascertain what Walkerley's source was but we do not know. Maybe it could have been from a Mercedes source? But I am clutching at threads here.

The only facts we have are the results of the Swiss GP - and is it reasonble to here that A-U were not expecting any change - as Muller did all that was required to win the European Championship on the Scoring System for the prior years. This in itself seems strange if it was known the scoring system was to be changed.

Now I must check the race reports for an explanation.

#193 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 21:22

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Hans: can I ask you to carefully recheck your translation of the Aug 4th piece? I am wondering whether you might have mixed tenses in this section:
The outcome will be decided in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy has definitely been called off. It should generally be known that the results of the “grandes épreuves”, carried out according to the international racing formula, count towards the European Championship (there are the Grands Prix of Belgium, of France, of Germany, of Switzerland and of Italy). After the Grand Prix of Italy in Monza, originally fixed for September 10, has definitely been cancelled because the reconstruction work on the track and grand stands will not be completed at that date, the VI. Grand Prix of Switzerland, taking place on August 20, has acquired the important role of the final run for this year’s European Championship.
Does the original German imply that the Italian GP has ALREADY BEEN CANCELLED, or are they speculating that IT WILL BE CANCELLED?


The following were the headlines on top of the article out of AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, August 4, 1939, No. 63, pg. 3:
How is the European Championship 1939 doing? The outcome will be decided in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy has definitely been called off.
and here is the text in question:
..... the “grandes épreuves”, carried out according to the international racing formula, count towards the European Championship (there are the Grands Prix of Belgium, of France, of Germany, of Switzerland and of Italy). After the Grand Prix of Italy in Monza, originally fixed for September 10, has definitely been cancelled because the reconstruction work on the track and grand stands will not be completed at that date, the VI. Grand Prix of Switzerland, taking place on August 20, has acquired the important role of the final run for this year’s European Championship.
To make things easier in the future, I will be happy to send scans of any article upon request to any interested party and I have done so in the past. Just thought I might mention it again.

Question: Does the original German imply that the Italian GP has ALREADY BEEN CANCELLED, or are they speculating that IT WILL BE CANCELLED?
Answer: My original translation was: The outcome will be decided in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy has definitely been called off.
Word by word translation is: The decision falls in Bern, after the G.P. of Italy is definitely called off.

And here now is the offending piece for any of you who want to give it a go:
Wie steht es um die Europa-Meisterschaft 1939? Die Entscheidung fällt in Bern, nachdem der G.P. von Italien endgültig abgesagt ist.
and here is the now complete text in question:
Es dürfte allgemein bekannt sein, dass die Ergebnisse nach der internationalen Rennformel ausgetragenen “grandes épreuves, als da sind die Grossen Preise von Belgien, von Frankreich, von Deutschland, der Schweiz und von Italien, für die Europameisterschaft zählen. Nachdem nun der ursprünglich auf den 10. September angesetzte Grosse Preis von Italien in Monza definitive abgeblasen worden ist, da die Rekonstruktionsarbeiten von Piste und Tribünen bis zu diesem Datum nicht beendigt sein werden, kommt dem am 20. August in Bern stattfindenden VI. Grossen Preis der Schweiz die wichtige Rolle als Endlauf um die diesjährige Europameisterschaft zu.

#194 Vitesse2

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 22:12

Forgive the grammatical pedantry (!) but unless my schoolboy German is failing me, isn't this phrase

definitive abgeblasen worden ist


written in the future tense, indicating that the decision to cancel the Italian GP had not yet been made (or not yet made public)?

I think all the English speakers may, as I did originally, have taken your translation as meaning that the decision had already been taken. My reading of this now is that the actual cancellation was not made public until AFTER the Swiss GP - this would explain why the Motor reported the cancellation in an issue more than a week later, at the same time announcing Lang as champion.

So, if we take the scenario that there was still doubt in some or all minds as to whether the Italian race would take place ....

#195 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 December 2001 - 22:26

Originally posted by David J Jones
.....A German Champion (Lang) appointed by the NSDAP via the ONS. .....

Careful with your abbreviations. The NSDAP did not get involved but the NSKK did since they managed German motor sport. That the top brass of the German party in power (NSDAP) was involved is pure speculation. All big wigs belonged to 'The Party' as far as I can recall.

Originally posted by David J Jones
.....There was no AIACR Champion appointed for 1939 before hostilities started
Lang was later appopinted as German Champion by the ONS .....

The ONS declared Lang as the 1939 European Champion and Caracciola as the 1939 German Champion.

#196 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 December 2001 - 01:55

David - I've taken the liberty of annotating your post:

Originally posted by David J Jones
From Hans's earlier post containing the Automobile-Revue article of 18 August I believe we can establish that-

No detail was known regarding whether a new scoring system would be used.


Agreed

Originally posted by David J Jones
That as the Swiss GP had become the final race its results were therefore crucial as regards deciding the Championship.


Agreed, up to a point. If the announcement about Italy had not yet been made there would still be an element of doubt regarding race tactics and championship standings. Perhaps Mercedes Benz knew something Auto Union didn't?

Originally posted by David J Jones
It is a reasonable assumption to make that a decision regarding ratification of the scoring change would be made at the annual meeting in October - as uaual - but I don't believe this happened. Even were it to be the case it is unfortunate for Lang as the commencement of hostilities on 1 September I believe frustrates his case.


We know that the October meeting took place, but there were no proceedings ...

Originally posted by David J Jones
I did not mean to misrepresent the Motor article of 29 August but having read the post again would point out it only states that it would seem Lang was going to be the Champion. It would be marvellous if we could ascertain what Walkerley's source was but we do not know. Maybe it could have been from a Mercedes source? But I am clutching at threads here.


I think it needs to be read alongside the other two items in the same magazine, not in isolation, especially with the longer piece from the Personal column. The more I read these, the more I'm convinced my initial assessment was correct: the long Personal column came first, then the smaller piece in On Road and Track, which is in places a paraphrase of the first, prompted by the stop press cancellation.

Originally posted by David J Jones
The only facts we have are the results of the Swiss GP - and is it reasonble to here that A-U were not expecting any change - as Muller did all that was required to win the European Championship on the Scoring System for the prior years. This in itself seems strange if it was known the scoring system was to be changed.

Now I must check the race reports for an explanation.


Perhaps there was lobbying of the ONS and other national bodies behind the scenes and both teams were being assured that each of their preferred scoring systems would be approved? I have checked Motor, Motor Sport and Autocar and found nothing ...

#197 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 24 December 2001 - 03:14

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Forgive the grammatical pedantry (!) but unless my schoolboy German is failing me, isn't this phrase .....definitive abgeblasen worden ist..... written in the future tense, indicating that the decision to cancel the Italian GP had not yet been made (or not yet made public)?

I think all the English speakers may, as I did originally, have taken your translation as meaning that the decision had already been taken. My reading of this now is that the actual cancellation was not made public until AFTER the Swiss GP - this would explain why the Motor reported the cancellation in an issue more than a week later, at the same time announcing Lang as champion.

So, if we take the scenario that there was still doubt in some or all minds as to whether the Italian race would take place ....


Your Q.:So, if we take the scenario that there was still doubt in some or all minds as to whether the Italian race would take place ....
My A.:You are questioning the integrity of the given information with unfounded hypothetical or distorted ideas. It makes no sense to discuss such issues at this forum.

I make an attempt here to further explain but stand on shaky ground since I am not a language scholar. As far as I know, there is only one past tense in English, whereas the German grammer is not that simple. There are further complications because Swiss German has additional minor differences.

'definitive abgeblasen worden ist'
definitely, blown off, was, is

So, there is your direct translation of the four critical words.
The word 'abgeblasen' is = past participle = for the word 'blown off' and seems to be part of the stumbling block.


abblasen = to blow off, to break off
abblasen = blow off = present tense
blies ab = blown off = past tense
abgeblasen = blown off = past participle
wird abblasen = will blow off = future tense

Perfect Tense (is formed with an auxiliary verb)
Es ist abgeblasen = present tense of past participle = it is blown off
Es war abgeblasen = past tense of past participle = it was blown off

Progressive Tense (consists of the verb with the past participle)
Es ist abgeblasen worden = present progressive tense = it has been blown off
Es war abgeblasen worden = past progressive tense = it had been blown off
Es würde abgeblasen werden = future progressive tense = it would have been blown off

Nachdem..... es..... abgeblasen worden ist = past tense = After ..... it .....has been blown off
Nachdem..... es..... abgeblasen worden ist = past tense = After it has definitely been cancelled

By inserting the word 'definitely', the Author wanted to make sure that the reader would understand that the race would not be reinstated, because he used the word 'blown off'. For that reason I used instead the word 'cancelled' in my translation, because it is easier understood by non-English people than the word 'blown off'.

#198 David McKinney

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Posted 24 December 2001 - 06:36

The problem with the translation is that it does not accord with the natural way the sentence would have been written in English.

If the Italian race had already been cancelled, the sentence would more likely have read:
The outcome will be decided in Bern, [II]as (or because) the GP of Italy has been (definitely) called off

If the decision was still in the future, it would more likely read:
[i]The outcome will be decided in Bern, [II]if [I]the GP of Italy is (definitely) called off


In fact, more likely still, the sentences would have been written
[I]As the GP of Italy has been (definitely) called off, the outcome will be decided in Bern[II]
or
[I]If the GP of Italy is (definitely) called off, the outcome will be decided in Bern[II]

#199 David J Jones

David J Jones
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Posted 24 December 2001 - 07:48

Hans

Reference my NSDAP statement - Iaccept your comment that it may be speculation on my part - but the fact that Carraciola was made German Champion does, in my book at least, smack of a political solution. One made some weeks after the events on the track in Bern and after commeencement of hostilities and made by the NSSK - a Nazi organisation.

I hope we can agree that this was a GERMAN decision and not an AIACR (European) one as implied by its date. This being my case I would wish to suggest there was no OFFICIAL European Champion in the true sense.

How it is straightened out from here on is a political problem.

Vitesse / Hans / David

I always understood that the decision regarding the Italian Race was known before the Swiss GP and which ever way the semantics of language are viewed the 18 August article still implies to my feeble mind that there was going to be NO GP at Monza so everyone knew the Swiss GP was the final race of the year.

Trying to analyse tenses - although interesting - I feel is somewhat irrevalent since we know that a decision about the scoring system to be applied had to be made or ratified after the Swiss GP had taken place. We know that no decision was made before 1 September.

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#200 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 24 December 2001 - 09:19

Originally posted by David J Jones
.....the fact that Carraciola was made German Champion does, in my book at least, smack of a political solution. One made some weeks after the events on the track in Bern and after commeencement of hostilities and made by the NSSK - a Nazi organisation......

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, No. 70 pg.3; August 29, 1939
Caracciola German Automobile Champion
After the Grand Prix of Vienna (September 17), counting towards the German Automobile Championship, has been cancelled, the final outcome of the German Automobile Championship is already certain. Victor is Rudolf Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) ahead of Hermann Lang (Mercedes-Benz), Mueller (Auto Union) and Pietsch (Maserati). Caracciola owes his victory to the first place at the Grand Prix of Germany.