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The Mickey Thompson 'Sears Allstate Special' cars of 1964


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#1351 TomSlick57

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 18:23

I came accross a couple images of this topic I have saved to my pictures..Can anyone walk me thru the process of posting them on here?

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#1352 HistoricMustang

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 21:55

If you have something new to add I use the Image Shack service. There may be others that the TNF members can guide you through.

Welcome! :cat:

Henry :wave:

Edited by HistoricMustang, 02 November 2009 - 10:24.


#1353 ZOOOM

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:33

Riviting...
Where did you GET these?

ZOOOM

#1354 TrackDog

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Posted 06 November 2009 - 01:14

Riviting...
Where did you GET these?

ZOOOM



I have to agree...these images certainly add a great deal to the info already available in this thread. Thanks for sharing them with us.


Dan


#1355 roamic

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:59


<Paul, as to the weight of the cars involved, the Shrike weighed in at about 1150 pounds dry, as did the Thompson car. The roadsters weighed approximately 1400-


Just read where they were aiming for 2,000 pounds, but that Unser's 4WD Novi weighed 2400 pounds.

#1356 Lemnpiper

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Posted 30 November 2009 - 23:01

<Paul, as to the weight of the cars involved, the Shrike weighed in at about 1150 pounds dry, as did the Thompson car. The roadsters weighed approximately 1400-


Just read where they were aiming for 2,000 pounds, but that Unser's 4WD Novi weighed 2400 pounds.



Thanks Roamic,

Since i was very young back then could any of the more knowledgeable elders here perhaps explain back then what parts of the car were standardized no matter the engine layout or weight of the car was.
In this current era of lookalike cars with virtual identical construction i must beleive now realize very little was interchangeable between the various car designs back then .








Paul

#1357 mjb

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 00:36

Tomslick - please check your email - re local history/#22. Thanks -

#1358 TomSlick57

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 00:31

Tomslick - please check your email - re local history/#22. Thanks -

I don't have any email..Says zero..Were you fella asking about the #22 in my avatar? It is Bill Rafter in the early 60's

#1359 Long-time Indy 500 Fan

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 20:13

[quote name='Lemnpiper' date='Nov 30 2009, 19:01' post='4020613']
Thanks Roamic,

Since i was very young back then could any of the more knowledgeable elders here perhaps explain back then what parts of the car were standardized no matter the engine layout or weight of the car was.
In this current era of lookalike cars with virtual identical construction i must beleive now realize very little was interchangeable between the various car designs back then .



This was a different; but, great era of Indy. This was when a driver and/or concept breakthrouh could actually make a difference; or, in the case of MacDonald a disaster! This was before Roger Penske destroyed Indy and Indy racing! This was when new concepts such as the beautifully engineered Shrike, the God-awful Thompson hot-rod bombs, and everything in-between graced the speedway. The price paid that horrible day by the great Eddie Sachs was too much! MacDonald was an arrogant, over-rated, nitwit driver. The arrogance of MacDonald was only outweighed by the even more arrogant Thompson. Basically MacDonald's arrogance and total lack of respect for the speedway, everything, and everybody killed himself and poor Eddie Sachs. Driving like this in early laps was total arrogance and incompetence! MacDonald was an idiot! MacDonald and Thompson's arrogance killed Eddie Sachs. Thankfully, more did not die that horrible day.


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#1360 ZOOOM

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 21:42

... Be sure not to hold back there fella....
Hope you make it to number six...
ZOOOM

#1361 szautke

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 18:46

Reading the last several pages of innuendos, rumors and theories makes me wonder if I’m reading about the Kennedy assassination.

MacDonald perhaps wasn't as good as some had mentioned, nor a bad as others make him out to be. MacDonald did impress many in his career, that includes Ford (Motor Company), Shelby, Thompson and others. He had many incredible rides in the Shelby Cobra at Road America and Riverside. He was driving over his head, but was no Johnny Hannon.

A rookie made a dumb move at Indy in 2003 and ended upside down, he won the race two years later. In 1964 you made a dumb move, you may lose your life, Davey did.

In regards to Johnny Rutherford and MacDonald never racing together, both participated in the 1964 Daytona 500.

And to one particular member of this forum. In the words of Sergeant Hulka from the movie "Stripes" "Lighten up, Francis."  ;)

#1362 Jim Thurman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 20:05

Reading the last several pages of innuendos, rumors and theories makes me wonder if I’m reading about the Kennedy assassination.

MacDonald perhaps wasn't as good as some had mentioned, nor a bad as others make him out to be. MacDonald did impress many in his career, that includes Ford (Motor Company), Shelby, Thompson and others. He had many incredible rides in the Shelby Cobra at Road America and Riverside. He was driving over his head, but was no Johnny Hannon.

A rookie made a dumb move at Indy in 2003 and ended upside down, he won the race two years later. In 1964 you made a dumb move, you may lose your life, Davey did.

In regards to Johnny Rutherford and MacDonald never racing together, both participated in the 1964 Daytona 500.

And to one particular member of this forum. In the words of Sergeant Hulka from the movie "Stripes" "Lighten up, Francis."  ;)

Steve, this is one of the best posts to this thread :up:


#1363 B Squared

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 13:14

Steve, this is one of the best posts to this thread :up:


A very succinct summation by Steve Szautke that I have to agree with.

The following photo is taken in 1995 in the basement of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum. It is a re-creation of the Eddie Sachs Halibrand Shrike Ford. I must admit, I found it a bit odd and kind of gave me "the willies" if you know what I mean. Brian

photo: B²
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#1364 RA Historian

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 15:50

The following photo is taken in 1995 in the basement of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum. It is a re-creation of the Eddie Sachs Halibrand Shrike Ford. I must admit, I found it a bit odd and kind of gave me "the willies" if you know what I mean. Brian

I do, Brian. Why would they ever do this?
Tom

#1365 B Squared

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 17:33

I do, Brian. Why would they ever do this?
Tom


Eddie was, as we know, a beloved figure at the Speedway - my only guess is that it was to honor him in some way?? Having his 2nd place car from 1961 on display, that was owned by Vic Yerardi at the time, would be along the line of something far more suitable in my opinion. Brian

#1366 IndyFan56

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 21:10

I believe that the Shrike was displayed as part of the IZOD IRL Indy display in Macy's Herald Square front window last May,
I know that it gave me the "Willies" also

Edited by IndyFan56, 03 January 2010 - 04:08.


#1367 HistoricMustang

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 21:57

I have often wondered what happened to the two Mickey Thompson cars from the 1964 Indy.

Henry :wave:

#1368 Lemnpiper

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 01:29

I believe that the Shrike was displayed as part of the IZOD IRL Indy display in Macy's Herald Square front window last May,
I know that it gave me the "Willies" also




Hi Guys,

Yes seeing that car is a bit creepy . Any idea what year it was done?

What i'm thinking may have happened is that car became obsolete so quickly it's fate was to become a "tribute car" or chopped into something else unrecognizable for a lower level in racing.If that's the case then maybe as a tribute car it ended up serving a greater function after all.
Plus if it's real accurate it can be used as a visual to explain potential theories what may have occured to the true Sachs car in the crash.


And Henri does ask an interesting question about the eventual fate of at least the Eddie Johnson car from 1964. I would tend to believe the other car was junked after the wreck.


Paul

#1369 TrackDog

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:19

The Shrike was an incredible car for it's day. It was one of the first true monocoque chassis built in America, and was designed by none other than Norman Timbs, who had also designed the Blue Crown cars that dominated the late 1940's at Indy. So, there are several reasons for preserving the car, other than the Sachs connection.

It IS a bit eerie for us older aficionados seeing the car today, but the average Indy fan who wasn't even born in 1964 won't have that problem.

Dan

#1370 TrackDog

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 04:23

I have often wondered what happened to the two Mickey Thompson cars from the 1964 Indy.

Henry :wave:


I've seen pictures of one of the "pumpkinseed" '63 cars in Mickey's garage, but the fate of the two surviving '64 cars ( Johnson and Gregory) is a mystery to me, too...


Dan


#1371 HistoricMustang

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:20

The Shrike was an incredible car for it's day. It was one of the first true monocoque chassis built in America, and was designed by none other than Norman Timbs, who had also designed the Blue Crown cars that dominated the late 1940's at Indy. So, there are several reasons for preserving the car, other than the Sachs connection.

Dan



Buried somewhere deep in this thread is a good article (The Alternate) telling about development of the Shrike.

Henry :wave:

#1372 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:32

A very succinct summation by Steve Szautke that I have to agree with.

The following photo is taken in 1995 in the basement of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Museum. It is a re-creation of the Eddie Sachs Halibrand Shrike Ford. I must admit, I found it a bit odd and kind of gave me "the willies" if you know what I mean. Brian

photo: B²
Posted Image



In May 1991 the car was on display in the lobby of the IMS museum.

Henry, check out Page 51 of "you know what" as for photographic evidence of that observation I made.
I have heard a rumor, that this recreation made use of leftovers of the genuine car of Eddie.
In which case......


Henri

#1373 HistoricMustang

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 10:27

Hi Henri,
I immediately went to this source when the subject appeared here at TNF a few days ago. In fact, I have re-visited this information on a regular basis.

And, it amazes me (eight months after the fact) that the world class group here at TNF has completely missed this information as it was presented in such a public form. :cat:

I also received a great communication over the Holidays from the West Coast.

Check your PM's.

Henry :wave:

#1374 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:02

Hi Henri,
I immediately went to this source when the subject appeared here at TNF a few days ago. In fact, I have re-visited this information on a regular basis.

And, it amazes me (eight months after the fact) that the world class group here at TNF has completely missed this information as it was presented in such a public form. :cat:

I also received a great communication over the Holidays from the West Coast.

Check your PM's.

Henry :wave:



Checked: and Thanks.

I guess I an the only Dutchman still checking this thread and that therefore there is no mentioning other then by myself about this 1991 observation.

Henri



#1375 paulhooft

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:22

Checked: and Thanks.

I guess I an the only Dutchman still checking this thread and that therefore there is no mentioning other then by myself about this 1991 observation.

Henri


Not Exactly, Henri
Happy 2010

Paul

#1376 B Squared

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:23

No Dutchman here Henri - I just didn't want to intrude on you and Henry's inside observations. I thought if you wanted us to know, you'd spell out page 51 of "you know what". Since we only have 35) pages in this thread - I haven't a clue as to what you two are on about. I've read this thread from post #1, after so much fact and fiction permeates into it...I guess I've lost track. Sorry for my ignorance.

Henry - Pretty neat that you hear from Dave MacDonald's family. My family and I are close to Bobby Marshman's sister Ronney - I think I have a sense of how you may appreciate that bond. Brian

#1377 Michael Ferner

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 12:34

Henry, check out Page 51 of "you know what" as for photographic evidence of that observation I made.



Hi Henri,
I immediately went to this source when the subject appeared here at TNF a few days ago. In fact, I have re-visited this information on a regular basis.

And, it amazes me (eight months after the fact) that the world class group here at TNF has completely missed this information as it was presented in such a public form. :cat:

Care to enlighten?

#1378 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 13:05

No Dutchman here Henri - I just didn't want to intrude on you and Henry's inside observations. I thought if you wanted us to know, you'd spell out page 51 of "you know what". Since we only have 35) pages in this thread - I haven't a clue as to what you two are on about. I've read this thread from post #1, after so much fact and fiction permeates into it...I guess I've lost track. Sorry for my ignorance.

Henry - Pretty neat that you hear from Dave MacDonald's family. My family and I are close to Bobby Marshman's sister Ronney - I think I have a sense of how you may appreciate that bond. Brian


Brian, and Michael as well,

I did not want to brag about it but in april 2009 there wa a Dutch racing history magazine that published an article bout the Sachs-MacDonald accident.
And I must confess. I was the author of it and I used a lot on ifo as forwarded within this thread in order to point out that even today, a number of facts are told about this accident while already in 1964 there was evindence printed that these facts were not correct.
And take my word for it, Iwas also wrong footed about a number of details regarding the accident.

Now the Dutch market is not the most helpful place for Dave's reputation in history to explain that some of the circumstance he is blamed for were different and in some details are simply not corrrect, doing even more damage to his reputation.
But at least I got the chance to tell more about some things that are the truth and by now proven to be correct and some proven to be faulty comments and reactions.
Thanks to all of us over here who did serious research and serious debating.

if anyone out here reads this and has connections with an American publication and is interested in seeing something in English to cosider it for publication: just let me know.

But one picture included in that article was of the Shrike re-incarnation that I saw in the Lobby of the Speedway motel back in 1991.
And that was on the page 51 of the "you know what"
"You know what" was the article in the Dutch magazine.
And it wasn't a spectacular item but an isight what happened, whatis told that isn't correct and how these incorrect details still live on today.

Hope this explains something?

Henri

#1379 B Squared

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 14:20

Thanks to all of us over here who did serious research and serious debating.

Hope this explains something?


Yes Henri - that helps a bit. Have you any translated (to English) excerpts that you'd care to share with us regarding your serious research and debating? I believe we've had some of that here too. Do you feel differently? Thanks as always, Brian

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#1380 Henri Greuter

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 14:34

Yes Henri - that helps a bit. Have you any translated (to English) excerpts that you'd care to share with us regarding your serious research and debating? I believe we've had some of that here too. Do you feel differently? Thanks as always, Brian



Brian,

I must talk with some people about that first because of copyrights etc.
But the gist of the story is what has been brought up here:

Both cars were not the 100 gallon gasoline bombs they are said to be and Sachs' car contributed little to the fire
Why Dave lost control remains a mystery.
In my eyes; he took too much rsks too early in the race and had a racing accident that, due to some circumstances beyond his control became a nightmare crash.
Because of some testimonies and evidence mentioned within the thread, he still is named the only guilty person of this crash and all blame convieniently put within his shoes.
The more while some statements of drivers who became legends at the speedway in later year are quoted ever so often while the few pieces of evidence against the 100 gallon bombes is not taken in account for whatever reasons.
Dave is not innocent on the crah, but he is not responsible for everything that went wrong after the impact as some conveniently think.

That is a capsule version of my conclusions, thans to everyone of you who contributed to all of this knowledge. It is primarily because of this thread and how it deveolped and what came forward in evidence and discussions that I felt the need and got the inspiration to write the article.



brian, I wished I could have it printed in an American magazine. A bit modified since for Dutch magazine I had to put in things about Indy that done't need to be in an American magazine but the essence of the story, i wished i could interest an American magazine for it.
But who want's to publish something written by a Dutchie....

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 05 January 2010 - 14:36.


#1381 B Squared

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 15:05

But who want's to publish something written by a Dutchie....


I would think your Novi books should give you some solid credibility over here. Thanks for your response - I would think that Vintage Motorsport or Vintage Oval Racing would possibly tackle this still controversial subject. Brian

#1382 Jim Thurman

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 20:27

Henri, I think this subject was worthy of an article, as is any that addresses conflicting and erroneous information. There is so much mythology surrounding auto racing (especially concerning fatal accidents) that it is fertile ground for articles. Many long held beliefs, some of which keep getting passed along, are nothing more than folklore.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 05 January 2010 - 20:29.


#1383 HistoricMustang

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 21:23

if anyone out here reads this and has connections with an American publication and is interested in seeing something in English to cosider it for publication: just let me know.

Henri


Trust me, if anyone here has this connection Henri's article NEEDS to be published in a mass produced English magazine.

I have the magazine containing the article an it is very gratifying and will be well accepted by just about anyone who has any opinion on Indy 1964.

It made one family feel very good after having to endure inaccurate information for over four decades.

Henry :wave:

#1384 roamic

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:18

I was a long time fan of MacDonald's. I loved to watch him race Corvettes. Then he went onto Cobras and King Cobras. There's a video of him drifting a King Cobra through Riverside's turn 6 and it's just magic to me.

I've also seen a video of him in a stock car going through Turn 6. His left arm is on the door and he's steering just with his right arm.

I also was a fan of Mickey Thompson. Loved his Bonneville cars. I had a 61 Pontiac with Mickey Thompson valve covers. Somehow I had an invitation to his shop in Long Beach for a preview of one of his Indy cars. My grandfather and I went. Don't remember the exact year.

So in 64, I found myself sitting in the Los Angeles Sports Arena to watch the race live on closed circuit TV.

Through this forum, I've discovered that Dave's parents were there too. How horrible for them!

Via this forum I learned or remembered how well he qualified. And I'd forgotten how many he had passed.

Just 7 years before, I'd been burned in a gasoline fire, and I still carry the scars. So it was really horrible for me to see that fire.

I have Peter Bryant's book "Can-Am Challenger" and I feel that while the car originally handled poorly, by race day, it probably handled well.

The theory that he was trying to pass Walt Hangsen and was cut off, makes sense to me.



#1385 RA Historian

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 19:05

The theory that he was trying to pass Walt Hangsen and was cut off, makes sense to me.

Oh boy, now it is all Walt Hansgen's fault. Here we go again. :well:

Tom

#1386 ensign14

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 19:44

I didn't read it as meaning that, just a bald statement that Hansgen took his line for the corner...the sort of thing that has happened loads of times at Indy without the tragic consequences.

#1387 TrackDog

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 21:39

I didn't read it as meaning that, just a bald statement that Hansgen took his line for the corner...the sort of thing that has happened loads of times at Indy without the tragic consequences.



According to Len Sutton, Dave came out of Turn 4 beneath Walt; but he was too low for Walt to see him in his mirrors. So, Walt took his normal line onto the main straight and began to execute a pass on Jim Hurtibise. What we have here is two cars trying to be in the same place at the same time...in actuality, two gasoline-laden guided missiles trying to be in the same place at the same time. It wasn't Walt's fault, it wasn't Dave's fault...IT WAS A RACING ACCIDENT.It could have happened on lap 12, 92 or 200.

The real culprit was the fact that safety hadn't caught up with technology, and a lot of chances were taken by a lot of people that ended up biting them all in the ass, some more than others, to be sure...but you get what I mean.

In all the films I've seen of the '64 race, the Sears Allstate car didn't handle any worse than any of the other cars. Dave MacDonald was putting on a great show, but that was his driving style. He'd won the last three races he'd entered, had the backing of the Ford Motor Company and the desire and ability to perform well at the world's greatest race. He was showing up a lot of veterans and they didn't like it.

Eddie Sachs was my hero, too...my first one, in fact. For years, I thought Dave MacDonald killed him, but he didn't. What we have in the 1964 Indianapolis 500 is a classic case of a disaster...a chain of seemingly unrelated events that all add up to an inevitable and tragic conclusion. We have certainly analyzed the crap out of this.

Henri, the world needs your article; but it also needs more...somebody should write a book and cover all the angles and subplots, because a lot of people share the responsibility for what happened. I realize that some fans are dead-set on vilifying Dave MacDonald and no book, article or posting will change their minds. But, they're dead wrong.

Now, please excuse me...I have a pizza to burn, an ex-wife to placate and a career to revive in the midst of an economic maelstrom.



Dan


#1388 ovfi

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 21:47

I was a long time fan of MacDonald's. I loved to watch him race Corvettes. Then he went onto Cobras and King Cobras. There's a video of him drifting a King Cobra through Riverside's turn 6 and it's just magic to me.
.....................................
The theory that he was trying to pass Walt Hangsen and was cut off, makes sense to me.

Please look back in the thread, there's pictures and movies showing that Hansgen was overtaking Herk, so Dave had to shift left more than he expected to overtake Hansgen, losing it in this action. Walt Hansgen didn't cut off him.
In time, I was a huge fan of Dave MacDonald too.

#1389 Lemnpiper

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 02:00

Henri, the world needs your article; but it also needs more...somebody should write a book and cover all the angles and subplots, because a lot of people share the responsibility for what happened. I realize that some fans are dead-set on vilifying Dave MacDonald and no book, article or posting will change their minds. But, they're dead wrong.





Dan




Hi Dan ,


After reading this thread as it was created i'd hate to discourage Henri's article from being printed even in more places but this thread itself contains more info and discussions and observations of what may have gone on than any book written may ever be able to.

The sad fact will remain no one will ever know the complete story about why things went so bad on that day in 1964. And potential reasons of what happened will continue to be suggested for as long as the indy 500 is run.

But anyone reading thru this thread can see how what was a common belief in 1964 has been shown to be a fallacy. I'm not meaning to be cold and callous here but one big problem is the vast majority of folks now only see Eddie & Dave as 2 of many drivers killed way back in the history of the running of the 500.
And as in so many things in the past often the "legend" get more press than the "truth'. :mad: :down:



Paul

#1390 ZOOOM

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 02:25

I am a pilot. One of the most impressive quotations about flying is this one:


Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

I have always thought that it applies as well to racing.

When an airplane crashes, the FAA tells us that there is seldom a singular cause. It usually is a series of small, almost insignificant, little things, that taken individually would never even be noticed. But, when strung together, in the proper sequence, lead to the fatal mishap.

The Sachs/MacDonald accident is not the fault of any one singular mistake, but rather a series of small mistakes that happened in an incredable sequence.
To place the blame on any one of many individuals is to refuse to step back and look at the whole picture.

If, Thompson didn't have to revamp his cars for the race.
If, Ford had not given Thompson their Ford engines and brought with it the pressure.
If, Indy hadn't changed the tire sizes.
If Dave had more experience at Indy under a less pressure situation.
If, the fuel tank on the MacDonnald car had been better braced.
If, the concrete wall was not canted back towards the center of the track.
If, Hansgen had seen MacDonald.
If, MacDonald's car hadn't "closed the door" on Sachs.
If, the accident would have happened three or four laps later.
If, the cars would have been fueled with Methanol instead of gasoline.

Should I go on?


ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 07 January 2010 - 02:30.


#1391 Henri Greuter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 08:43

I am a pilot. One of the most impressive quotations about flying is this one:


Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

I have always thought that it applies as well to racing.

When an airplane crashes, the FAA tells us that there is seldom a singular cause. It usually is a series of small, almost insignificant, little things, that taken individually would never even be noticed. But, when strung together, in the proper sequence, lead to the fatal mishap.

The Sachs/MacDonald accident is not the fault of any one singular mistake, but rather a series of small mistakes that happened in an incredable sequence.
To place the blame on any one of many individuals is to refuse to step back and look at the whole picture.

If, Thompson didn't have to revamp his cars for the race.
If, Ford had not given Thompson their Ford engines and brought with it the pressure.
If, Indy hadn't changed the tire sizes.
If Dave had more experience at Indy under a less pressure situation.
If, the fuel tank on the MacDonnald car had been better braced.
If, the concrete wall was not canted back towards the center of the track.
If, Hansgen had seen MacDonald.
If, MacDonald's car hadn't "closed the door" on Sachs.
If, the accident would have happened three or four laps later.
If, the cars would have been fueled with Methanol instead of gasoline.

Should I go on?


ZOOOM


ZOOOM, and all other who feel that an article on this subject is difficult if needed,

I can pretty much agree with just about everything you put in here. believe me, my article was not intended and is not intended to put everyting down as the thruth and how it all exactly happened. But I gave a number of the factors you listed and came to the conclusion most of us do here that it was a cummulation of factors combined, all adding up to the severity of the eventual outcome.
I also, and that was my main focus, tried to explain that certain stories ar still told today with the evidence against those stories still being neglected. And thus give a far from correct view on what happened. So much is uncertain about this tragedy but tragically, so much incorrect details are taken for granted.
Again I want to state that I can't proclaim Dave MacDonald entirely innocent. I can't. But I am pretty sure that he undeservedly got more of the guilt put in his shoes then is justified.
I can't change history. But I got a chance to speak out about the history and bring up facts that were overlooked and ignored. Maybe at a wrong podium that no-one (but one contriibutor to this thread) saw. But at least I tried.

Why a possible publication in an American magazine might help?

A we are by now on page 35 here, how many newbies want to start reading a 35 page thread? We ourselves are on occasion lost on matters that already mentioned but then, on which page and where? We've gone around in circles too, let's face it.
Shpould we perhaps start a new thread, tharting with the primary conclusions and primary evindence posted for reference?
Not everyone has access to internet or knows about this site. I have seen other racing sites members crunching AtlasF1, I've seen Atlas members crushing other sites that I found to be more helpful to me then Atlas.

That is why.

There are people who take printed material much more serious then any Internet page ever can be.
In the case of the Sachs-MacDonald crash however: i think this thread contains much more relevant clues and evidence and comes closer to a description of what happened and what factors were involved then any other printed piece I have seen up till now.

I feel proud about what all the people who reacted seriously on the matters brought up for discussion have achieved. Together we have got a better view on the situation then a number of professional writers have ever published.
That is an achievement we can be proud of.
I hope more people among us, who know that they took this thread serious and contributed to that in seriousness will feel the same. You have every reason to do so.


Henri

#1392 Henri Greuter

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 15:48

Henri, the world needs your article; but it also needs more...somebody should write a book and cover all the angles and subplots, because a lot of people share the responsibility for what happened. I realize that some fans are dead-set on vilifying Dave MacDonald and no book, article or posting will change their minds. But, they're dead wrong.




Dan



Dan,

Allow me to say: "I think the world needs an article like the kind of article I wrote."
But I don't care who does it over in the USA as long as it is done at last.
I simply don't have the credibility in the USA, let alone the entries and connections to give it a go.
But if someone opens a door that enables me to do it, then I am more than willing to take up that job another time but then at a place where more people can `hear`me.

Henri


#1393 HistoricMustang

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 13:44

Ran across this which has additional "tid - bits" on the 1964 race.

Touches on Allstate Tires (by Armstrong) as well as the new Ford engine and other items of interest.

Also, this issue of Popular Mechanics presents other items including the new Mustang.

http://books.google....M...ong&f=false

Hopefully, the link works for all to view.

Henry :wave:

#1394 B Squared

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:20

I got into a forgotten stack of magazines in the garage. This May 1, 1964 Automotive Industries was not supposed to be in there. Anyway, I posted the cover because I am not sure if the top photo shows the Mickey Thompson built car or not. The second image down shows the 1963 car for comparison. I'm not trying to muddy any waters - I know some will be able to correctly identify the 1964 rear view that I've mentioned.

Posted Image
Posted Image

These two pages are from the same AI, this is stated to be the Eddie Sachs Halibrand Shrike. Brian
Posted Image
Posted Image

#1395 TrackDog

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 00:39

The rear suspension layout is certainly similar to the '63 model driven by Billy Krause as shown in the photo. The inboard disc brakes are clearly visible in both shots. Some suspension parts appear to be almost identical, as well. And, that big fuel tank on the left side of the car would have taken some serious sidepod to cover it, as would the oil reservoir on the right...I'm assuming that's what it is, because it's smaller and shaped differently than the tank on the left.

I think it's one of the Thompson cars.


Dan

#1396 HistoricMustang

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 15:21

Dan,
Please check your PM's.

Henry :wave:

#1397 Lemnpiper

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 09:07



Hi Guys,



At Ebay now there seems to be a much modified Halibrand shrike once owned by Jerry & Greg Weld.

Wonder if any of the more knowledgeable folks think the legacy of this particular car is.




Paul

#1398 HistoricMustang

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Posted 26 February 2010 - 13:44

A little off topic, but you gentlemen are going to enjoy these videos.

In a way you all deserve credit for new information coming forward on Dave MacDonald.

Henry :wave:

http://www.davemacdo...ideogallery.htm

#1399 Hse289

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Posted 28 February 2010 - 10:36

Geat video`s Henry, loved the Pacific G.P. and the Sebring 1964 video`s. The Corvette Gran Sport`s acceleration was awesome to watch.

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#1400 HistoricMustang

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 17:21

A book is being put together concerning Indy 1964.

The author is requesting a copy of the film put together by "Dynamic Films". Can anyone give direction on how a copy might be obtained?

Henry :wave: