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The Mickey Thompson 'Sears Allstate Special' cars of 1964


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#1401 HistoricMustang

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 18:35

Believe I have located a source.

Thanks!

Henry :wave:

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#1402 bradbury west

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 19:42

If you scroll down just before halfway down the page on the left hand side in the pictures block here;
http://dorodesign.wo...-selectism-com/
I think it is a colour shot of the MT Sears car. If not let me know and I will delete post.
Roger Lund

#1403 TrackDog

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 20:36

If you scroll down just before halfway down the page on the left hand side in the pictures block here;
http://dorodesign.wo...-selectism-com/
I think it is a colour shot of the MT Sears car. If not let me know and I will delete post.
Roger Lund


That's the car, all right...the picture was taken very early in the month, before the fenders were cut out and the nose was redone.


Dan


#1404 Bob Riebe

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 22:21

A little off topic, but you gentlemen are going to enjoy these videos.

In a way you all deserve credit for new information coming forward on Dave MacDonald.

Henry :wave:

http://www.davemacdo...ideogallery.htm

I saw the Corvette video at the 1962 Worlds Fair, in surround vision. Gads, life was good back then.


#1405 Lemnpiper

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 02:03




Hi Guys,


Henri over at TF there is footage from a film done for STP at INDY in 1964.


http://www.trackforu...ad.php?t=134616


While is interesting to watch how that crew prepared their cars for qualification take note that in some clips how Eddie Johnson's #84 was next to to Bobby Unser's #9 in the garage .
Plus there are shots of the #83 and Smokey's #47 Sidecar being moved or driven in acouple of places.

So Henri have you ever seen this film before? Or has is ever bewen mentioned this this tread before?




Paul

#1406 Henri Greuter

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 13:17

Hi Guys,


Henri over at TF there is footage from a film done for STP at INDY in 1964.


http://www.trackforu...ad.php?t=134616


While is interesting to watch how that crew prepared their cars for qualification take note that in some clips how Eddie Johnson's #84 was next to to Bobby Unser's #9 in the garage .
Plus there are shots of the #83 and Smokey's #47 Sidecar being moved or driven in acouple of places.

So Henri have you ever seen this film before? Or has is ever bewen mentioned this this tread before?


Lemnpiper,

I haven't been on this forum for a while.

Sounds as if the film is "Way of a chanpion" that is a B&W film focussing on the Novi team that year
Will check it out if possible at all.
Is a nice film by the way.

Greetings,

Henri




Paul



#1407 Lemnpiper

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 03:40




ACK!!!!!!

Well Henri it was so nice for you to respond and i hope you are able to drop by in the future a bit more often .

But i actually meant that post for the other Henry aka HistoricMustang soince he has made such an effort to document the goins on about the 1964 Indy 500 in this thread :blush: :blush: :blush:

Figures my 100th post would be a mess LOL

Thanks

Paul

#1408 TimF

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 02:48

I have been a big Indy fan since my father took my brother and me to quals in '62. By the time '64 rolled around, I was hooked. I read everything and watched everything I could find about Indy. We went to "pole day" in '64 and it was about the most exciting thing that this 12 year old had ever seen. We got to the stands in the 1st turn late but we knew that Marshman had hit 160 in morning practice. Don't think I've ever heard Tom Carnegie say "It's a new track record" so many times in a day. Indy had been struggling to top the 150 mph mark for a decade and Jones had just done it the year before and here we were with the possibility of 160 only a year later!

Have read this thread from post #1. A couple of points: Someone mentioned the possibilty of the fuel pump pouring out gas. The Ford DOHC engine had the fuel pump running off the starboard exhaust cam. This would probably not have been damaged in the initial contact with the wall. Here's a cool pic of the engine; you can see the fuel pump opposite the distributor.

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

I've seen mention of fiberglass body panels in a couple of posts. Think most of the cars used aluminum. Fiberglass tends to be pretty heavy.

In the debate over gas vs alcohol, one advantage that alcohol has over gas, alcohol mixes well with water (think gin and tonic), gas doesn't. I recall learning in my college chemistry classes that anything over 100 proof alcohol (50%) will burn, anything under that won't. I'm not a fire expert, but it seems that you should be able to "dilute" an alcohol fire out pretty easily. Once you had diluted the alcohol to < 50%, it should not burn. Gas does not mix with water. You could conceivably overwhelm a gas fire with water, but for the most part, the gas will float on the surface and continue to burn.

A lot the posts mention the Thompson cars handling. Based on the shape of the cars, I'd say this was the Bernoulli's Principle at work. The profile of most cars is basically a wing. In the absence of a spoiler, a car of this configuration is going to float. Of course, no one knew this in '64...maybe we still don't. See Mercedes Benz at LeMans this decade:



I do agree that lift would have been at a minimum coming out of the 4th turn.

The thread makes frequent mention of driver reaction. They participate in an activity that is hazardous. When something bad happens to another driver, they need a reason that it wasn't them: the driver didn't have enough experience, too aggressive, car was unsafe, etc. I think his is why the racing community has such a hard time when a great driver dies (Earnhardt, Senna, Clark, Donohue). When a Jim Clark dies, there's nothing between them and their mortality.

I think the biggest factor in this tragedy is the fuel container in the Thompson cars. Basically a giant water balloon filled with gas, apparently secured only at the flange.

Planning on going to the track next week.

Tim

Edited by TimF, 12 May 2010 - 02:51.


#1409 HistoricMustang

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 21:44

Hi Guys,


Henri over at TF there is footage from a film done for STP at INDY in 1964.


http://www.trackforu...ad.php?t=134616


While is interesting to watch how that crew prepared their cars for qualification take note that in some clips how Eddie Johnson's #84 was next to to Bobby Unser's #9 in the garage .
Plus there are shots of the #83 and Smokey's #47 Sidecar being moved or driven in acouple of places.

So Henri have you ever seen this film before? Or has is ever bewen mentioned this this tread before?




Paul


Paul, thanks so much and I have not viewed this film.

It has been passed along to special people. :cool:

Henry

#1410 okay50

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 13:21

I was at the speedway in 1964 on bumping day. I remember Masten Gregory in the blue #82 trying to qualify. His car looked like it was floating down the main straightaway. He just couldn't get it up to speed. I don't remember seeing any of the other MT cars on that day. I do remember Rodger Ward practicing in his #2 Kaiser Aluminum Special and I remember the Hurst sidecar spl, Bill Cheesbourg and Paul Russo. I have other Indy memories from later years if anyone's interested.

okay50










#1411 doug40

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 23:28

Just wanted to say that if you watch the Dave MacDonald crash on you tube, watch closely and you will see 2 cars in front of Dave ,the cat directly in front of Dave makes a move on the car in front of him just as Dave tries to do the same to him.he then has to cut down further and the back comes around. I race a 3500 lb street stock on a 1/4 mile high banked paved track and actually had/did the same thing. car in front of me pulled down to pass someone just as I made the same move on him. To avoid contact I had to turn down harder and it upset the balance and around I went. I could only imagine Dave MacDonald having to try and get away with that at 150mph. watch the video closely .you will see what I mean.


#1412 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 10:50

Hi, doug40. Welcome to TNF.

Hmmm... Re your hypothetical analysis...

Plausible.

We'd need more views from assorted angles to pin it down concretely.



#1413 Michael Ferner

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 12:38

Just what is it that makes some of you try to determine the exact physics of an everyday accident, I can't comprehend. Like someone said on another thread, move on, nothing to see here... :rolleyes:

#1414 RA Historian

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 13:43

Just what is it that makes some of you try to determine the exact physics of an everyday accident, I can't comprehend. Like someone said on another thread, move on, nothing to see here... :rolleyes:

Agreed. What could possibly be said now that has not already been said in 36 previous pages and over 1400 posts!
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 09 June 2010 - 13:44.


#1415 bill p

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 16:17

Just what is it that makes some of you try to determine the exact physics of an everyday accident, I can't comprehend. Like someone said on another thread, move on, nothing to see here... :rolleyes:


Couldn't have put it better myself!


#1416 HistoricMustang

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 20:01

Just wanted to say that if you watch the Dave MacDonald crash on you tube, watch closely and you will see 2 cars in front of Dave ,the cat directly in front of Dave makes a move on the car in front of him just as Dave tries to do the same to him.he then has to cut down further and the back comes around. I race a 3500 lb street stock on a 1/4 mile high banked paved track and actually had/did the same thing. car in front of me pulled down to pass someone just as I made the same move on him. To avoid contact I had to turn down harder and it upset the balance and around I went. I could only imagine Dave MacDonald having to try and get away with that at 150mph. watch the video closely .you will see what I mean.


Welcome! :wave:
This scenario has been discussed on several occasions in the extensive thread.

A possibility, along with others.

I believe most of the members here do not now believe what was printed for over four decades....................................a rookie entered Indianapolis, drove crazy and killed two individuals. It was much more complex than that.

Until something new comes along, and that is doubtful with the information put up here at TNF, individuals will have to draw their on conclusions.

I will say the MacDonald's are very, very appreciative of the TNF members. This can be seen by the new energy flowing into Dave's web site.

http://www.davemacdonald.net/

#1417 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 23:47

Hey guys (and gals),

This might be a bit obscure question to ask, but thought this might be my best hope for getting an answer.


Posted Image
This is a photo of a tire which supposedly, Mickey Thompson provided to George Barris (King of the Kustomizers) for use on the 1966 TV Batmobile. There are a few photos of the Batmobile in 1965-66 which show this tire on the car. One story has been told of the car in preseason testing of the TV show making a rapid entrance into the Batcave running on these tires, and one blew out, almost wrecking the car. People have been trying to get more information of this specific tire, but with no results. It was called an "Indy" tire, but it sure doesn't look like one designed for the IMS and actual racing, but maybe just nick-named that for sales appeal.

Edited by Cam2InfoNeeded, 09 June 2010 - 23:48.


#1418 doug40

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 00:37

sorry guys if what I mentioned ,had already been said? whatever did really happen...happened. Dave was prob driving his ass off to get to the lead. I would too. thats whats called "racing" It's a shame that Eddie Sachs died in that accident but when you strap into a racecar you assume the risk . Dave did not delibertly do anything wrong and the MacDonald family should be really proud of him and never feel like it was Dave's fault. A racecar driver dying at Indianapplois is ,in my opinion, a entry into immorality..never to be forgotten, and as we see by this site ,it's working

#1419 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 00:57

Hey guys (and gals),

This might be a bit obscure question to ask, but thought this might be my best hope for getting an answer.


Posted Image
This is a photo of a tire which supposedly, Mickey Thompson provided to George Barris (King of the Kustomizers) for use on the 1966 TV Batmobile. There are a few photos of the Batmobile in 1965-66 which show this tire on the car. One story has been told of the car in preseason testing of the TV show making a rapid entrance into the Batcave running on these tires, and one blew out, almost wrecking the car. People have been trying to get more information of this specific tire, but with no results. It was called an "Indy" tire, but it sure doesn't look like one designed for the IMS and actual racing, but maybe just nick-named that for sales appeal.


Is it just me, or does the trad pattern consist of peace symbols? Groovy, man!

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#1420 Cam2InfoNeeded

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 05:39

That's what a couple of the people on the Bat-board said as well. Probably not very "peaceful" when it started to rain, though.

#1421 HistoricMustang

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 12:20

sorry guys if what I mentioned ,had already been said? whatever did really happen...happened. Dave was prob driving his ass off to get to the lead. I would too. thats whats called "racing" It's a shame that Eddie Sachs died in that accident but when you strap into a racecar you assume the risk . Dave did not delibertly do anything wrong and the MacDonald family should be really proud of him and never feel like it was Dave's fault. A racecar driver dying at Indianapplois is ,in my opinion, a entry into immorality..never to be forgotten, and as we see by this site ,it's working


Doug, no apology necessary. One of the great things about TNF is that members are VERY well educated and passionate about vintage motorsports. The Mickey Thompson thread is long and with a lot of information so perhaps an entire reading was necessary to gather all the information before posting.

One of the things I love about visiting TNF each day is the professionalism...........................even while correcting another member.

Now, over at the Paddock Club it is a bit different. :cat:

Again, welcome.

#1422 HistoricMustang

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 12:22

That's what a couple of the people on the Bat-board said as well. Probably not very "peaceful" when it started to rain, though.


Yep, I bet that sucker hydroplaned like crazy.

"Holy crap Batman, I believe we are out of control."

#1423 MPea3

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 00:51

Is Henry still a member? He seems to have vanished and all of his data with him.

#1424 Henri Greuter

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 07:16

Is Henry still a member? He seems to have vanished and all of his data with him.



Holy crap, he is indeed missing from the list .....


I have send off an email to him. For his friends who also posted within this thread I suggest to do the same to let him know we wonder about him.
Or is someone among us knowing what is going on? Please let us know.

When he started this thread, I wonder if he ever knew what to expect of what it wuould yield.
But personally, I think that this thread has become one of the threads in which the members of TNF have put together enough evidence to approve that stories told vor 45 years and more were not correct and because of that an update in Indy history writing is needed.

For me, what the participants within this thread have achieved with another is one of the best cases of racing history needing to be rewritten because of our combined knowledge and efforts.

Henri

#1425 Henri Greuter

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:18

Holy crap, he is indeed missing from the list .....


I have send off an email to him. For his friends who also posted within this thread I suggest to do the same to let him know we wonder about him.
Or is someone among us knowing what is going on? Please let us know.

When he started this thread, I wonder if he ever knew what to expect of what it wuould yield.
But personally, I think that this thread has become one of the threads in which the members of TNF have put together enough evidence to approve that stories told vor 45 years and more were not correct and because of that an update in Indy history writing is needed.

For me, what the participants within this thread have achieved with another is one of the best cases of racing history needing to be rewritten because of our combined knowledge and efforts.

Henri



To the ones interested:


I received an answer from Henry

Having had my own difficulties with the moderators out here I don't think it is up to me to explain what has happened.
But I can confirm that Henry Jones / Historic Mustang is no longer a member of TNF


I have always considered Henry Jones / Historic Mustang as the "thread leader " so to speak.
But now he is unable to guide the thread, if this means that this thread will come to an end , I don't know.
But I hope it won't so that if there is more to tell and more to share about this subject, that we still can add and comment.

to TomSlick57: Thank you very much for posting your recent pictures. I hope that, if you have more to share, you are willing to and be enabled to.


I hereby appeal to the moderator to keep this thread open for the time being.

Thanks.


Henri



#1426 TomSlick57

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 18:23

To the ones interested:


I received an answer from Henry

Having had my own difficulties with the moderators out here I don't think it is up to me to explain what has happened.
But I can confirm that Henry Jones / Historic Mustang is no longer a member of TNF


I have always considered Henry Jones / Historic Mustang as the "thread leader " so to speak.
But now he is unable to guide the thread, if this means that this thread will come to an end , I don't know.
But I hope it won't so that if there is more to tell and more to share about this subject, that we still can add and comment.

to TomSlick57: Thank you very much for posting your recent pictures. I hope that, if you have more to share, you are willing to and be enabled to.


I hereby appeal to the moderator to keep this thread open for the time being.

Thanks.


Henri

Your welcome, having come across these pictures I felt obligated to post them on here..I have have learned very much from this thread and will always post anything I come across

#1427 Lemnpiper

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 03:30

Your welcome, having come across these pictures I felt obligated to post them on here..I have have learned very much from this thread and will always post anything I come across




TomSlick


Thank you very much for the pics. The last one showing that guy on the left looking at Sach's car is especially revealing since we know Eddie is still under that covering.


This thread and the 1946 Season thread i feel have been the 2 threads on this Forum that have done the most to bring new information to light about their respective topics and to dispell commonly held opinions that had existed for decades prior on these two topics.


Henry / Historic Mustang if you can read this THANK YOU for creating this thread and i hope the monitors keep it alive because it contains so much info that newbies in the future can read and digest to learn about the Eddie & Dave's crash which many feel is one of the if not THE darkest hour in Indy 500 history.




OT question Do we consider Swede Savage's death crash related still or tainted blood related now? If it's tainted blood related that would make the 1964 crash the last crash during the 500 with a driver being killed (in this case 2 ).




Paul

#1428 TomSlick57

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 01:54

TomSlick


Thank you very much for the pics. The last one showing that guy on the left looking at Sach's car is especially revealing since we know Eddie is still under that covering.


This thread and the 1946 Season thread i feel have been the 2 threads on this Forum that have done the most to bring new information to light about their respective topics and to dispell commonly held opinions that had existed for decades prior on these two topics.


Henry / Historic Mustang if you can read this THANK YOU for creating this thread and i hope the monitors keep it alive because it contains so much info that newbies in the future can read and digest to learn about the Eddie & Dave's crash which many feel is one of the if not THE darkest hour in Indy 500 history.




OT question Do we consider Swede Savage's death crash related still or tainted blood related now? If it's tainted blood related that would make the 1964 crash the last crash during the 500 with a driver being killed (in this case 2 ).




Paul

Your Welcome Paul, I guess Eddie Sachs must have been badly pinned in his race car for them to wait till the car was back in the garage before extracting him from it

#1429 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 14:26

Your Welcome Paul, I guess Eddie Sachs must have been badly pinned in his race car for them to wait till the car was back in the garage before extracting him from it



The weird part however is that according several statements the monocoque had taken the impact quite well. In any case wel enough to have only one of the fuel tanks within the coque having bursted.

Henri

#1430 TomSlick57

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 19:16

The weird part however is that according several statements the monocoque had taken the impact quite well. In any case wel enough to have only one of the fuel tanks within the coque having bursted.

Henri

Henri, Have they ever explained in any detail why they waited or is it just another mystery of this whole disaster..I automatically felt that he was pinned as the reason why..I cant think of another situation where they covered the driver like that

#1431 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:57

Henri, Have they ever explained in any detail why they waited or is it just another mystery of this whole disaster..I automatically felt that he was pinned as the reason why..I cant think of another situation where they covered the driver like that


Tom,

I can't recall having read anything about that, it might be published, I don't know right now.
But Eddie being pinned is absolutely possible.

Now I don't want to be morbid or disrespectful to with the following comment I put it down with the utmost respect to Eddie.

What could have been the case: how about this theory.

There were thousands of people sitting in these grandstands, watching what happened. And just about everyone knew these men had to be dead. Dave was still alive so that they got him out of the car made sence. But arriving on the scene, noticing that Eddie was beyond help, perhaps the rescue workers in control decided to get him out of the wreckage out of the range of all those thousands of people in the stands in order so save them from seeing how a dead man was dealt with? With hiding Eddie under the sheet, the crowd knew what was hidden but no longer `exposed` to something that must have been horrible to see.
The most sensible option I can think of as of why it happened like this was: with respect to the crowd. Clean it all up, remove the objects ASAp and don't expose the crowd any longer as strictly possible to horrible scenes.
And I think that in hindsight, it was also the best option for what could be done with Eddie's body.

I apologize to everyone who feels that I have been rude and cruel to Eddie and his memory with what I wrote. If you feel so, it wasn't intetional and hereby my apologies.

Henri


#1432 TomSlick57

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:38

Your probably right Henri..There is just so much of this accident that is shrouded in mystery..But as you say..I can't imagine sitting right there and witnessing this disaster..I have little doubt that many never attended a race after this nor would any of them ever see a wreck in racing of this magnitude again..Henri, If you notice the last photo I posted of the flaming wheel, take a look at the 2 people on the LEFT side of picture in white shirts leaning on the fence..They seem to be very calm considering the carnage unfolding arround them..Tom

Edited by TomSlick57, 13 August 2010 - 12:40.


#1433 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 13:09

I have little doubt that many never attended a race after this nor would any of them ever see a wreck in racing of this magnitude again..Henri, If you notice the last photo I posted of the flaming wheel, take a look at the 2 people on the LEFT side of picture in white shirts leaning on the fence..They seem to be very calm considering the carnage unfolding arround them..Tom


I bvelieve it is mentioned somewhere in the thread already.
But in the past it was very difficult to get tickets at the track since people who had them hung on to them. But I heard about two years in which lots of seats became available for new takers, coincidentally both years in the grandstand area at the End of turn four and begin front straight.
1965 was the first year, what the other year was....


As for the two guys on the fence: "Frozen in shock perhaps???"

Henri

#1434 TomSlick57

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 20:50

I bvelieve it is mentioned somewhere in the thread already.
But in the past it was very difficult to get tickets at the track since people who had them hung on to them. But I heard about two years in which lots of seats became available for new takers, coincidentally both years in the grandstand area at the End of turn four and begin front straight.
1965 was the first year, what the other year was....


As for the two guys on the fence: "Frozen in shock perhaps???"

Henri

I can not even imagine being in thse first few rows..Nor what the poor fireman with only and Extinguisher was thinking running toward that carnage...Henri, What is you opinion on Dave's car having Fuel on the right side..The side that hit the wall?

#1435 ZOOOM

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 01:42

Notice the crowd in that last photo...
At that time there were folding chairs about 6/8 deep on the flat area between the fence and the grandstand proper.
This wasn't the case up in the turns. I was over in three at the time of the Sachs/MacDonald accident...
All I saw was the smoke.

ZOOOM

#1436 Lemnpiper

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:28

Notice the crowd in that last photo...
At that time there were folding chairs about 6/8 deep on the flat area between the fence and the grandstand proper.
This wasn't the case up in the turns. I was over in three at the time of the Sachs/MacDonald accident...
All I saw was the smoke.

ZOOOM




Hi Guys ,


I have heard a rumor that "flaming tire" goin over the wall was never found after the wreck in 1964 . Any one ever hear of that ?


Plus if you watch film of the crash in 1964 as it unfolds , what i believe is goin on is that those two folks looking down the straight havent has a chance to react to Eddies actual impact into Dave's car and the resulting fireball. Also if they had earplugs on they may have been focused on the leaders goin down the stretch without knows what was goin on about 25-30 to their left starting with Dave's slide into the wall .


As a quick aside in the top 1966 pic look at Bobby Grim in the background as he is being thrown forward in the roadster as it appears to hit nose 1st. Those belts seemed to have stretched a lot .




Paul


#1437 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:31

I can not even imagine being in thse first few rows..Nor what the poor fireman with only and Extinguisher was thinking running toward that carnage...Henri, What is you opinion on Dave's car having Fuel on the right side..The side that hit the wall?



Tom,

It is perhaps a bit running in circles within this Topic but I also must look up things on occasion if it has been dealt with or mentioned already.

One of the big sad facts about this accident is that it is told over and over again that the Thompson and the Shrike were loaded with up to 100 gallons of fuel at the start.
It was not the case. Both cars had about 46 or so gallons.
Only on the left side the Thompson had a fuel tank. It has been told by Pete Bryant in his book Can Am Challenger (he worekd on the cars) and when you look at the pictures of Dave's wreck, on the right side, there is nothing to see that vaguely could be related with a torn off fuel tank. There wasn't one.

Also read the contents of this page out on the internet of an article, already published in 1964 (!) but of which the contents obviously have been overlooked for all those years.

http://vault.sportsi...76051/index.htm

In here is is stated that the Thompsosn did not have upt to 100 gallons of fuel tank capacity.
But somehow that story came in the world and it remained ever since.

The accident looked as if it was a 200 gallon fuel fire, but it wasn't.
I don't wanna know what would have happened had it been a 200 gallon fuel fire.


Henri



#1438 RA Historian

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 18:45

..yet the left side fuel tank is completely in tack?..

in tack, as opposed to in nail, or in spike? (sorry, segue to BP thread...)

I thought some of you may like to see these photos of the 1958 lap #1 crash in turn 3

Frankly, no. While I realize the historical/research value of such photos, I, speaking just for myself, find photographs of fatal crashes rather distasteful. But that is just me...
Tom

#1439 TomSlick57

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 21:06

in tack, as opposed to in nail, or in spike? (sorry, segue to BP thread...)


Frankly, no. While I realize the historical/research value of such photos, I, speaking just for myself, find photographs of fatal crashes rather distasteful. But that is just me...
Tom

You gotta love someone with something constructive to say..Bad choice of a word..fine..what are you and English teacher? As far as the photos I posted..In your case..Don't look..Besides the fact you find such photos distasteful..Why are you reading a thread of one of the most horrific accidents in the history of motorsports where the possibilty of such distasteful photos exsist..But since they bother you so much..I will remove them..I wasnt aware it would ruffle someones feathers so much..Or maybe you just have a personal hard-on for me..either way there gone

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#1440 RA Historian

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 21:48

what are you and English teacher......either way there gone

no comment!

Didn't mean to get your knickers in a knot, just expressing my own view that pictures of fatal accidents are of questionable taste. Some get their jollies out of such stuff, I do not, and I do not apologize for that. I was also taken somewhat aback by the apparent glee with which you posted those crash pictures; i.e., "I thought some of you may like to see..." I don't believe any of us would like to see photos of somebody losing their life. It may be necessary at times to view such photos, from an accident reconstruction viewpoint and as a device for gaining knowledge to avoid fatal accidents in the future. The photos posted in this thread, by and large, are germane to the thread's discussion of the MacDonald/Sachs crash, and as such do have a place in the thread. But to post photos from an entirely separate fatal crash, ostensibly for viewing pleasure, well, I am sorry if my view of the propriety of such things does not coincide with yours.

Speaking of taste, I find the tenor of your response and your choice of words not of the highest order either.

Edited by RA Historian, 14 August 2010 - 21:51.


#1441 RA Historian

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 00:38

Why am I not surprised at your response. It says more than you realize. Good day.

Edited by RA Historian, 15 August 2010 - 00:41.


#1442 Bob Riebe

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 00:45

As for the two guys on the fence: "Frozen in shock perhaps???"

Henri

o
The camera has the ability to show, for lack of a better term, thing that are out of context, i.e. they do not show what happened before or after.

Not all people react in "horror" a goodly share react in a calculated manner, i.e. they think before they act, and these gents may be considering what they will do next.


#1443 Lemnpiper

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 03:54

Hi guys,


Hey can you guys please chill ? I dont want the adminstrator to come here and shut down this thread over you two guys sniping at one another .


Tom might i suggest you search for a 1958 Indy thread for those pics . If no one exist create one.
they arent that hartd to create. Plus it will give you a chance ot see how much attentions it gets by observing the comments it generates.




Paul

#1444 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 05:30

@ TomSlick57

The most vital piece of evidence in the SI article (at least to me) is the following line

Mickey Thompson, builder of MacDonald's Ford-engined car, scotched an Associated Press story estimating the gasoline load at a fantastic 100 gallons (some 600 pounds in a car weighing about 1,200 dry). "We carried 45 gallons," said Thompson, a fact verified by Ray McMahan, the chief Mobil fuel specialist at Indy.

In other words: a source not related with Mickey confirms hereby that the myth about 80 or 100 gallons of fuel in the car is indeed : a myth.
Something that within the first 10 pages of th thread was kind of suggested by a several participants but not easily accepted by others for all kinds of reasons.

@Bob Riebe:

People can react at least at first sight, very strange on horrific scenes or news. But what is strange to others could well be the logica raction for another.
My suggestion of frozen in horror was not intended disrespectful to the two men or anybody else. We'll never know what went through the minds of these two men.
I am glad that I wasn't one of them, that's for sure....


Henri

#1445 ZOOOM

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:02

I hear what your saying and want to think that is the case..But looking at this photo and the size of the fireball from hitting the wall on right side and the imediate exsplosion..yet the left side fuel tank is not damaged?..I'm also wondering from the SI article you posted..They seemed to think he hit the wall head on? I just dont get it Posted Image


Tom, You may not have seen this photo I took of the Savage accident. Sweed hit the wall with 40 gallons of Methanol and you can see the effect.
Remember Methanol burns "clean and without visable flame"....
Posted Image

ZOOOM

PS... Let up on RA.... sometimes you cannot read sarcasm in print.

#1446 TomSlick57

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:22

@ TomSlick57

The most vital piece of evidence in the SI article (at least to me) is the following line

Mickey Thompson, builder of MacDonald's Ford-engined car, scotched an Associated Press story estimating the gasoline load at a fantastic 100 gallons (some 600 pounds in a car weighing about 1,200 dry). "We carried 45 gallons," said Thompson, a fact verified by Ray McMahan, the chief Mobil fuel specialist at Indy.

In other words: a source not related with Mickey confirms hereby that the myth about 80 or 100 gallons of fuel in the car is indeed : a myth.
Something that within the first 10 pages of th thread was kind of suggested by a several participants but not easily accepted by others for all kinds of reasons.

@Bob Riebe:

People can react at least at first sight, very strange on horrific scenes or news. But what is strange to others could well be the logica raction for another.
My suggestion of frozen in horror was not intended disrespectful to the two men or anybody else. We'll never know what went through the minds of these two men.
I am glad that I wasn't one of them, that's for sure....


Henri

Yes Henri I have to agree the Mobil fuel speialist is convincing evidence..I just find so much of this wreck as confusing..The SI article stating he hit head on is just more confusing..makes me wonder if anyone has a clue


#1447 TomSlick57

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 02:05

Tom, You may not have seen this photo I took of the Savage accident. Sweed hit the wall with 40 gallons of Methanol and you can see the effect.
Remember Methanol burns "clean and without visable flame"....
Posted Image

ZOOOM

PS... Let up on RA.... sometimes you cannot read sarcasm in print.

Zooom..Yes i have seen your picture before..Swede did hit at a higher speed and his entire car did explode..MacDonalds impact was less severe..and the fuel side of his car is unscathed..Another factor possibly being over looked is the era of this accident..It wasn't uncommon for say a driver at Daytona in a stock car to put a few extra gallons of fuel in his roll cage for example..as crazy as that may sound..But the inspection process was poor compared to racing today...I think its a mystery we will never know...............As far as letting up on RA...I took alot of time to post alot of photos that many of you may have never seen anywhere before..For him to say it appears I take "Glee" in posting photos of fatal crashes is a little more then sarcasm..I wasn't sitting here with a woodie when I downloaded them...As you may be this persons friend, Hopefully he wont comment on your Swede Savage photo as he did mine of the 1958 wreck (which i deleted) as being unrelated to this crash and distasteful of me for posting them..I come across alot of photos but it only takes one person to make me re-think posting anymore..But I respect your advice Zooom and assure you I won't be havng any conversation with him in the future

Edited by TomSlick57, 18 August 2010 - 09:12.


#1448 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:11

The sarcasm might not have been sarcasm, Tom...

When you posted 'in tack' it showed that you didn't know what the correct term is. I could even be out of respect for you that he posted his reply that way, to make a little light of it as he tried to help you understand your native language better.

We come up against this all the time in our everyday lives. People don't know lots of words or phrases, I've even seen 'to all intensive purposes' written where someone was trying to use the phrase 'to all intents and purposes'. I like to help these people and perhaps RA was as well.

Particularly on this forum, where many people to whom English is a secondary language read these posts diligently, it's a good idea to keep the language straight.

#1449 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 07:00

The sarcasm might not have been sarcasm, Tom...

When you posted 'in tack' it showed that you didn't know what the correct term is. I could even be out of respect for you that he posted his reply that way, to make a little light of it as he tried to help you understand your native language better.

We come up against this all the time in our everyday lives. People don't know lots of words or phrases, I've even seen 'to all intensive purposes' written where someone was trying to use the phrase 'to all intents and purposes'. I like to help these people and perhaps RA was as well.

Particularly on this forum, where many people to whom English is a secondary language read these posts diligently, it's a good idea to keep the language straight.




Ray.

Since I am one of those posting here for who English is secondary language at best (and I ever so often use poor language) but have never been attacked ont that in this Topic or in general at TNF, my sincere thanks for your comments and suggestion.

I don't think it is said often by anybody but to all `native`Englisn/American speaking posters over here, thanks for the support and understanding that you show in dealing with us foreigners.



Henri



#1450 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:07

Yes Henri I have to agree the Mobil fuel speialist is convincing evidence..I just find so much of this wreck as confusing..The SI article stating he hit head on is just more confusing..makes me wonder if anyone has a clue

I have followed this thread since the beginning (I can recommend it) and as far as I have understood, MacDonald's car hit the wall with the right rear corner first. It was a very hard blow that tore off the corner and probably also twisted the chassis. I don't know how the fuel lines were placed, but they must have been torn apart and or the fuel tank punctured. In one of the Youtube-films you can see a cloud of fuel round the car just after the first contact with the wall. Maybe someone with more information about fuel system can give more information, but after having read through the whole thread, I don't think there is anything mysterious about this accident. Only sadness....