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The Mickey Thompson 'Sears Allstate Special' cars of 1964


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#1451 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 13:11

I have followed this thread since the beginning (I can recommend it) and as far as I have understood, MacDonald's car hit the wall with the right rear corner first. It was a very hard blow that tore off the corner and probably also twisted the chassis. I don't know how the fuel lines were placed, but they must have been torn apart and or the fuel tank punctured. In one of the Youtube-films you can see a cloud of fuel round the car just after the first contact with the wall. Maybe someone with more information about fuel system can give more information, but after having read through the whole thread, I don't think there is anything mysterious about this accident. Only sadness....



The fuel tank, a simple rubber bladder (attached to the frame and the bodywork) ruptured.
I have read two different explanations for this to happen, both appear plausible, perhaps even occurrung at the same time.

Since the car had such wide bodywork (full width) and the bodypart was a single piece, once it got in touch with the wall, it instantly `worked on' the unprotected rubber bladder, even despite the fact that the tank was on the opposite direction of the wall and was never in direct contact with the wall.
Another theory has it that the massive fuel load had such an inertia that it sloshed violently through the tank and with such a force that it ruptured the tank. This theory is the one told within the official USAC report on the accident.

Weird as it seems, both theories are indeed plausible enough to explain why the tank leaked after the impact of the car with the wall, despite the fact that the tank was on the opposite side of the cockpit.

I agree with you that there is little chance that it isn't likely that there will be discorverd new facts about the events of that day itself. Perhaps about the aftermath, why such a number of incorrect facts about the cars and their fuel loads were told for so long and accepter as the thruth while a few people who knew and spoke out were ignored.
Good chance that next year, because of the 100th 500 all kind of publications will be released, good chance that 1964 is among the subjects dealt with and will the story about the near 100 gallon cars spilling almost 200 gallons of fuel on the track still be told yet again?


Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 August 2010 - 13:13.


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#1452 TomSlick57

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:28

The sarcasm might not have been sarcasm, Tom...

When you posted 'in tack' it showed that you didn't know what the correct term is. I could even be out of respect for you that he posted his reply that way, to make a little light of it as he tried to help you understand your native language better.

We come up against this all the time in our everyday lives. People don't know lots of words or phrases, I've even seen 'to all intensive purposes' written where someone was trying to use the phrase 'to all intents and purposes'. I like to help these people and perhaps RA was as well.

Particularly on this forum, where many people to whom English is a secondary language read these posts diligently, it's a good idea to keep the language straight.

Thanks for being concerned Ray..But it was sarcasm without a doubt..I would like to think that everyone believes i know the correct term was intact..And that posting the images I have was not intended to be distasteful nor did it give me any glee to do so..What bothers me more is it appears he gets a free pass yet I have to be talked to...I think its for the best that I just walk away

Edited by TomSlick57, 19 August 2010 - 09:45.


#1453 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 11:38

Thanks for being concerned Ray..But it was sarcasm without a doubt..I would like to think that everyone believes i know the correct term was intact..And that posting the images I have was not intended to be distasteful nor did it give me any glee to do so..What bothers me more is it appears he gets a free pass yet I have to be talked to...I think its for the best that I just walk away



Tom,

This is not intended as an insult or negative in any matter. If it appears so, sorry for that.

I don't think that you have to walk away because of the reason you gave.
There are more people out here who had to endure sarcasm.
I won't name anyone but I know that someone reads this post and might feel that I am referring to him.
But by ignoring it or letting it come as it is I still learned more and more about this subject, and others.

On TNF in general and also within this thread we have lost a participant in the discussion who had lots to tell and to offer already.
And I still miss his input and stories.
I hope you're not the next one.


Henri

#1454 TomSlick57

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:15

Tom,

This is not intended as an insult or negative in any matter. If it appears so, sorry for that.

I don't think that you have to walk away because of the reason you gave.
There are more people out here who had to endure sarcasm.
I won't name anyone but I know that someone reads this post and might feel that I am referring to him.
But by ignoring it or letting it come as it is I still learned more and more about this subject, and others.

On TNF in general and also within this thread we have lost a participant in the discussion who had lots to tell and to offer already.
And I still miss his input and stories.
I hope you're not the next one.


Henri

I appreciate your comments Henri and have enjoyed our conversations and have learned plenty from you..My intentions for joining this discussion and posting the images i have accumlated on this subject over the years was to perhaps add to and already outstanding discussion into a tragic event..But for me to be told I'm distasteful and enjoy or show Glee in posting such graphic images..Well that doesnt set well with me..

Edited by TomSlick57, 19 August 2010 - 20:37.


#1455 TomSlick57

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 18:27

Hi guys,


Hey can you guys please chill ? I dont want the adminstrator to come here and shut down this thread over you two guys sniping at one another .


Tom might i suggest you search for a 1958 Indy thread for those pics . If no one exist create one.
they arent that hartd to create. Plus it will give you a chance ot see how much attentions it gets by observing the comments it generates.




Paul

Paul, Im sorry I missed this posting till now..I did consider doing that..and maybe I will...Let me work on that..It does take a bit of time to get this information on here.

Edited by TomSlick57, 19 August 2010 - 20:36.


#1456 ZOOOM

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 02:07

Tom... Please just relax and reconsider.
As one who has been chastized with far greater zeal than you (when I was a newbie) I also took it personally. In almost all cases here, it isn't personal and I'm sure others like I, myself, have erased comments made in haste that could or would have been taken incorrectly.

Your input is valuable and welcome.

Just remember that no faces go with the postings here so it's hard to sometimes get a true feel for what some of us type.

I will look forward to your future postings.... and I've gotten pretty good at "ducking" here too.
ZOOOM

#1457 TomSlick57

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 03:46

Tom... Please just relax and reconsider.
As one who has been chastized with far greater zeal than you (when I was a newbie) I also took it personally. In almost all cases here, it isn't personal and I'm sure others like I, myself, have erased comments made in haste that could or would have been taken incorrectly.

Your input is valuable and welcome.

Just remember that no faces go with the postings here so it's hard to sometimes get a true feel for what some of us type.

I will look forward to your future postings.... and I've gotten pretty good at "ducking" here too.
ZOOOM

Thanks Zooom, I'll chill out..take your advice

#1458 HistoricMustang

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:36

Tom, thanks for your input and the added information.

For those that may not know, the following has been put together by Dave's son Rich.

Dave raced in Corvettes, Cobras, NASCAR and in the Indy 500 during the glory days of racing - the early 1960's. While his racing career lasted less than five years, his impact on American racing history is significant. He drove all of Carroll Shelby's legendary Cobras - Cobra Roadster 260ci, Cobra Roadster 289ci, King Cobra, Daytona Cobra & the King Cobra-Lang Cooper to their first ever victories.

Dave competed in 101 races and was victorious in 44 - a win percentage higher than all other drivers in that era. He was only 27 when he lost his life in the 1964 Indy 500.


An amazing career that just seems to have been swept under the rug because of inaccurate information from Indy 1964.

The TNF members are to be commended.

Henry :wave:

#1459 TrackDog

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:34

I have followed this thread since the beginning (I can recommend it) and as far as I have understood, MacDonald's car hit the wall with the right rear corner first. It was a very hard blow that tore off the corner and probably also twisted the chassis. I don't know how the fuel lines were placed, but they must have been torn apart and or the fuel tank punctured. In one of the Youtube-films you can see a cloud of fuel round the car just after the first contact with the wall. Maybe someone with more information about fuel system can give more information, but after having read through the whole thread, I don't think there is anything mysterious about this accident. Only sadness....


I believe it was Peter Bryant who said that when the MacDonald car hit the wall, it did so with the right rear wheel first, and this cracked the bodywork. Cracking the bodywork also stretched the fuel bladder, causing it to split close to the flange that held it in place. The bladder was held in place by the aluminum flange that also served as the filler nozzle, and several straps that were attached to the frame rails. The impact burst the bladder like a balloon. There was a spray of fuel that atomized and caught fire either from a spark caused by the frame contacting the wall, or fuel vapors contacting the hot engine. The most famous photos of the initial crash capture the moment the fuel vapors ignited. It was a flash fire, technically not an explosion. It looks like a 100+ gallon explosion to the uninitiated, but it''s really not. Burning fuel then splashed out over the body of the car, and trickled down into the tank like a candle wick.

As for Sachs being left in his car until the wreck was brought back to the garage area...it's well-known that one of his legs was broken, and that one of his boots was left in the car after his body was extricated. Most of the damage to the Shrike was confined to the nose; the radiator collapsed inward, and that most likely was what trapped Eddie. He either broke his leg in the crash, or trying to get out of the car. It was widely reported that Sachs was crushed by his steering wheel; Ted Halibrand himself was supposedly the source of this rumor, but he later vehemently denied ever having said anything regarding Sachs having any chest injury. Officially, Dr. Thomas Hanna said in the Indianapolis Star that Eddie Sachs burned to death in his car.

Several major auto publications reported erroneously that MacDonald hit the wall head-on. One even stated that he was thrown from the car! It has to be remembered that lead times for feature stories used to be much shorter in the print media than they are today, and accuracy often had to take a back seat to printing schedules.

So, a lot of folklore and sub-standard(by today's standards anyway) journalistic practices have been joined together to create a very colorful, graphic and exaggerated fairy tale out of a straightforward, but very tragic racing accident.


Dan


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#1460 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:37

Tom, thanks for your input and the added information.

For those that may not know, the following has been put together by Dave's son Rich.

Dave raced in Corvettes, Cobras, NASCAR and in the Indy 500 during the glory days of racing - the early 1960's. While his racing career lasted less than five years, his impact on American racing history is significant. He drove all of Carroll Shelby's legendary Cobras - Cobra Roadster 260ci, Cobra Roadster 289ci, King Cobra, Daytona Cobra & the King Cobra-Lang Cooper to their first ever victories.

Dave competed in 101 races and was victorious in 44 - a win percentage higher than all other drivers in that era. He was only 27 when he lost his life in the 1964 Indy 500.


An amazing career that just seems to have been swept under the rug because of inaccurate information from Indy 1964.

The TNF members are to be commended.

Henry :wave:




Hey!!!!


Reinstated????

In that case I surrender my self proclaimed "thread guide/master" role I took up during your absence...
You're back in charge again.....






Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 September 2010 - 09:37.


#1461 HistoricMustang

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:02

Henri and other members.

I can not fully explain my draw to Indy 1964 except with the explanation of its attachment to the Augusta "510" NASCAR road race I attended in Augusta on November 17, 1963 with Glenn "Fireball" Roberts finishing first and Dave MacDonald placing second. And then, a little over six months later both drivers were dead. Those events have always and will always be with me as I am sure other similar actions remain with most of the TNF members.

Throughout the four decades after the event and leading into the work done here in Augusta by the Augusta International Raceway Preservation Society (AIRPS) since the turn of this century something was missing inside of me about that time in 1963/1964. Somewhat of a closure came with the work here in Augusta and the work done here at TNF on Indy 1964. But, and more importantly, a certain amount of closure has come to the MacDonald family..........you can see it in Rich's work.

And, I believe one day Rich will jump on board here at TNF for comments. He is a member, but as with most individuals tied to these types of events I am sure there is a certain amount of uncertainty when publicly commenting on an event such as Indy 1964. That event was and still remains emotional with individuals such as I. And, those emotions sometimes run high! :up:

#1462 ZOOOM

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:44

Amen...


ZOOOM

#1463 TomSlick57

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 23:05

Posted Image http://img818.images...hqmokjseuit.jpg[/img] Posted Image Posted Image

Edited by TomSlick57, 04 September 2010 - 05:14.


#1464 TomSlick57

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 23:19

A few more Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#1465 Lemnpiper

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 23:10

Hi Folks,



Went to the Va State Fair today and there was a vendor there with a collection of Life magazines for sale.

So being curious i asked if she had issues from June of 1964 in her selection . And when i mentioned it involved the Indy 500 of that year she had no problem looking at her listing and finding out it was the June 26th 1964 issue which she did indeed have.
Now having viewed the 3 photos and the editorial comments around them i must say that seeing them in color truely reveals how big of a mess it was. How Bobby Unser didnt end up as badly burned as Duman i'll will never know because all you see is the lower left front corner of the Novi as it spins Duman's purple & black #64.

Plus did anyone ever mention the length of the straight that had fuel burning on it? Too me it looks like a good 100 yards or more. Also it appears as he is driving by Troy Ruttman is looking at the Sach's car.

All in All a very interesting photospread to see finally 46 years later.






BTW OT If you ever locate a copy of the June 26th 1964 LIFE magazine ( William Scranton & wife on the cover ) read the entire issue because it is fascinating how some of the articles covered then could have been written within the last year. (Though Gaines-burgers i have heard of , i must admit Nabisco Chit Chat crackers i never knew existed)





Paul

Edited by Lemnpiper, 25 September 2010 - 00:38.


#1466 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:28

Hi Folks,
Went to the Va State Fair today and there was a vendor there with a collection of Life magazines for sale.

So being curious i asked if she had issues from June of 1964 in her selection . And when i mentioned it involved the Indy 500 of that year she had no problem looking at her listing and finding out it was the June 26th 1964 issue which she did indeed have.
Now having viewed the 3 photos and the editorial comments around them i must say that seeing them in color truely reveals how big of a mess it was. How Bobby Under didnt end up as badly burned as Duman i'll will never know because all you see is the lower left front corner of the Novi as it spins Duman's purple & black #64.

Plus did anyone ever mention the length of the straight that had fuel burning on it? Too me it looks like a good 100 yards or more. Also it appears as he is driving by Troy Ruttman is looking at the Sach's car.

All in All a very interesting photospread to see finally 46 years later.

BTW OT If you ever locate a copy of the June 26th 1964 LIFE magazine ( William Scranton & wife on the cover ) read the entire issue because it is fascinating how some of the articles covered then could have been written within the last year. (Though Gaines-burgers i have heard of , i must admit Nabisco Chit Chat crackers i never knew existed)

Paul



It is indeed a page that tells much about the inferno.
it also is, however, the best piece of evidence known about how one of the stories related with the accident came in the world.

I got hold of a copy of Eric Arneson's biography on Mickey Thompson an in this book, published early 2008 I found two references about the Thompson car having two filled fuel tanks, left and right.
It also quoted how in National Speed Sport News it had been stated that Dave macDonald had escaped from his car or otherwise had been thrown out.
Life magazine however proves this story to be not correct.

But the saddest thing I can think of: Within the early pages of this thread (the first 10), we all wrote in mid and late 2007, together we had concluded and found enough approval that the Thompson did not have a right side fuel tank, let alone a full one. And a book about Mickey, when dealing with the darkest day of his career, and that has hurt his reputation qute a bit in the years that followed, the provided info is not correct.
A pity, that could have helped Mickey's and Dave's case a bit.

is there anyone out here who still has the NSSN about the 1964 race and perhaps wants to scan the text parts? I don't need to see the pictures but I would love to read what Chris Economaki and his men had to tell about it.

Besides that, is there anyone out here who known how to reach Danny Thompson? I would love to find out more about what he did with the cars his dad still poseesed when he was killed.

Greetings,


henri







#1467 Calhoun98

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 03:08

is there anyone out here who still has the NSSN about the 1964 race and perhaps wants to scan the text parts? I don't need to see the pictures but I would love to read what Chris Economaki and his men had to tell about it.


Click here for the first page of NSSN race coverage

Click here for the second page of NSSN race coverage

#1468 Lemnpiper

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 01:54



Interesting the NSSN stated that Dave was found outside his car. Could it be since the bodywork on his car was all gone it just appeared he was outside the car?.


Since the issue was dated June 3rd what was it's deadline to gather info?



Paul

#1469 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:58

Click here for the first page of NSSN race coverage

Click here for the second page of NSSN race coverage



Thank you sir!
Much appreciated!


Henri

#1470 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:29

Interesting the NSSN stated that Dave was found outside his car. Could it be since the bodywork on his car was all gone it just appeared he was outside the car?.

Since the issue was dated June 3rd what was it's deadline to gather info?


Paul



As of why the suggestion that Dave was out of the car, I simply have no idea how it could be told. There were people at the scene once the fires were under control. Pete Bryant mentions in his book that he made comments to a photographer about what he was doing.
One of the newspapers in one of the Extra race editions had a picture of Dave in the car. To this day I still can't believe that picture being used in a newspaper. Even today it would be kind of tasteless.
The mentioned Life twospread has a similar kind of picture in right corner below.
But don't look too close, don't.

I don't know if the deadline was a problem but somehow it seems that the NSSN men had the wrong spokesman the had listened to.



henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 27 September 2010 - 12:30.


#1471 Lemnpiper

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:48


Hi all

OVFI in post 1243 of this thread posted a pic of the cars approaching Dave's wrecked car .


http://forums.autosp...40#entry3779187


In reading the NSSN article it states Cheesbourg spun out as a result of that wreck . With result he had ot wait in the pits til the race restarted to change his flat spotted tires. My question is where did Bill spin since i have never heard of any reference of a spin by him before?


Also someone in an earlier post refered to how brave Eddie Johnson was in getting back into his car after his teammate's crash and the NSSN article states that his mechanics worked on his engoine for 2 hours after the crash occured before he got back out to complete his 6 laps (by which point Foyt was on his 91th lap).So in fact Eddie had had plenty of time to regain his composure by then.

I suspect they worked so long and hard on the Johnson car to help distract them from what had allready occured in the race with little to show for the results.


Paul

#1472 Calhoun98

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 18:01

In reading the NSSN article it states Cheesbourg spun out as a result of that wreck . With result he had ot wait in the pits til the race restarted to change his flat spotted tires. My question is where did Bill spin since i have never heard of any reference of a spin by him before?


Without going back through the entire thread and looking at every photo, is there a chance Cheesbourg is identified incorrectly in the photo you referenced? He started 33rd, and that would mean he was already running with cars that started in the high teens. That would mean he passed roughly 15 cars. Seems like that would stand out in some of the movies referenced in the thread.

It's obviously not a roadster. Could it be Brabham? Has he been identified in any other photos?

#1473 B Squared

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 19:44

Without going back through the entire thread and looking at every photo, is there a chance Cheesbourg is identified incorrectly in the photo you referenced? He started 33rd, and that would mean he was already running with cars that started in the high teens. That would mean he passed roughly 15 cars. Seems like that would stand out in some of the movies referenced in the thread.

It's obviously not a roadster. Could it be Brabham? Has he been identified in any other photos?


Calhoun - If you look at post #1306, ovfi has a photo with I.D. markers on the drivers (second link). The shot is taken just as Dave's car is beginning to come off of the inside wall. Keep in mind that Cheesbourg was in a laydown Epperly roadster, which has a fairly small frontal profile. See first link. Hope this is of some help. B²

http://www.google.co...ved=0CBYQ9QEwAA

http://forums.autosp...w...188&st=1280

Edited by B Squared, 27 September 2010 - 19:48.


#1474 Lemnpiper

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 20:03

Calhoun ,

Back when the pics were 1st posted there was some discussion about how cheesbourg had gotten by so many cars so fast , and it was noted that Cheesbourg while in a slow qualifying car had in fact gotten a great jump on the start and had in fact passed about DOZEN CARS on his 1st lap . I'll see if i can find the posts with the discussion



paul

#1475 Lemnpiper

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 20:20



Calhoun ,

Here is the link to the July 31th 2009 post of Oscar's commenting on Cheesbourg's start his comments sit above the picture

http://forums.autosp...00#entry3779187


Paul

#1476 TomSlick57

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 00:15

A couple pictures of Bill Posted Image Posted Image

#1477 Calhoun98

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 01:08

Here is the link to the July 31th 2009 post of Oscar's commenting on Cheesbourg's start his comments sit above the picture


Paul-

Thank you for the link to the discussion on Cheesbourg's charge through the field. I read that part of the thread when it was posted but had forgot those details. Funny, but I purchased the radio broadcast of the race from the IMS iTunes store and listened to it on my drive to the IndyCar race at Kentucky in 2009, which would have been right along in the same time frame that part of the thread was posted. Of course radio was totally different in those days, but I don't remember them saying anything about Cheesbourg's charge through the filed either. Thirteen cars in less than 3 laps is a start to a race of which even Tony Kanaan would be proud!

I've scanned a side story from the same copy of NSSN. In this one, they think MacDonald, "apparently got out of the car and rolled on the track in an effort to extinguish his clothes." I hope this gives you a little more insight into news stories from that period of time.

Side story from NSSN on 1964 Indy fire

#1478 Lemnpiper

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 02:56

Paul-

Thank you for the link to the discussion on Cheesbourg's charge through the field. I read that part of the thread when it was posted but had forgot those details. Funny, but I purchased the radio broadcast of the race from the IMS iTunes store and listened to it on my drive to the IndyCar race at Kentucky in 2009, which would have been right along in the same time frame that part of the thread was posted. Of course radio was totally different in those days, but I don't remember them saying anything about Cheesbourg's charge through the filed either. Thirteen cars in less than 3 laps is a start to a race of which even Tony Kanaan would be proud!

I've scanned a side story from the same copy of NSSN. In this one, they think MacDonald, "apparently got out of the car and rolled on the track in an effort to extinguish his clothes." I hope this gives you a little more insight into news stories from that period of time.

Side story from NSSN on 1964 Indy fire



Thanks Calhoun

And with that article we can see how the seeds of many rumors were sown by folks reporting stuff that it took many many many years to disprove.

BTW i now suspect it wasnt Bill Cheesbourg that spun as reported but it was in fact either Norm Hall or Bobby Unser.( Unless some pic turns up to prove me wrong)



Paul


#1479 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:12

Paul-

Thank you for the link to the discussion on Cheesbourg's charge through the field. I read that part of the thread when it was posted but had forgot those details. Funny, but I purchased the radio broadcast of the race from the IMS iTunes store and listened to it on my drive to the IndyCar race at Kentucky in 2009, which would have been right along in the same time frame that part of the thread was posted. Of course radio was totally different in those days, but I don't remember them saying anything about Cheesbourg's charge through the filed either. Thirteen cars in less than 3 laps is a start to a race of which even Tony Kanaan would be proud!

I've scanned a side story from the same copy of NSSN. In this one, they think MacDonald, "apparently got out of the car and rolled on the track in an effort to extinguish his clothes." I hope this gives you a little more insight into news stories from that period of time.

Side story from NSSN on 1964 Indy fire



Calhoun98,

Thanks again for providing yet another piece of documentation to some youngsters who have no access to this material.

Don't dare to push our luck but do you also have access to NSSN reports about practice in which something is told about the Thomposn miseries?



Very interesting that also in this piece it is confirmed that the Shrike had not released its entire contents of fuel to the fire.
If you count the number of occasions that is it published in the aftermath of the accident that the fuel tanks of the Shrike had survived the impact so good
But why this appears to be so much ignored in the years that followed and the accident reamining to be kown as a pile up between two cars that carried up to 80 gallons and more gasoline.
Like Paul said; "how the seeds of many rumours..."



Paul,


There is a picture out here in this thread taken from the grandstands in Turn 4 on which you can see a blue car spinning. I must look up where it can be found.
But that car was Norm Hall.

(edit: Had a look in the thread where I supected the two pics to be but I can't find them yet)



Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 September 2010 - 07:36.


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#1480 ZOOOM

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 12:43

http://forums.autosp...40#entry3779187

Notice in the above picture that most of the fire from MacDonalds car is on the left side. His car hit on the right side and if there was a fuel bladder there it should have burst before the bladder on the left side of the car. I think this photo above all else is conclusive proof that there was no fuel on the right side of the car. I never thought about this before.

ZOOOM

#1481 Lemnpiper

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 14:20

http://forums.autosp...40#entry3779187

Notice in the above picture that most of the fire from MacDonalds car is on the left side. His car hit on the right side and if there was a fuel bladder there it should have burst before the bladder on the left side of the car. I think this photo above all else is conclusive proof that there was no fuel on the right side of the car. I never thought about this before.

ZOOOM



Hello Folks,


One question i'm not sure has been asked yet due to it's speculative and very sensative nature is this ,had Dave not been hit by any other cars , had he allready been injured to the point where those injuries were eventually gonna be fatal despite the best available treatment ?
I am very aware it might be a question some might find a bit morbid ,but after seeing the Nalon crash from 1949, would it have been possible Dave might yet have survived his impact with the inner wall and that fireball if he had not slid back into the path of the others.
That being the case , it seems to me the very design of the walls on the front straight played a big a part in the 2nd impact as anything else Dave could had done. This would be even a bigger reason for some to try to totally assign blame to Dave and the Thompson car.

Was the wall Dave 1st impacted on the very wall that Keith Andrews had hit in 1957 with fatal results as well?


Paul




#1482 MPea3

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 20:03

I don't believe it would have mattered as I think he died from the fire, not either impact.

#1483 Jim Thurman

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:42

I don't believe it would have mattered as I think he died from the fire, not either impact.

At least that's what I've always heard too, but as I've stated before, confirmation could be gleaned by simply checking MacDonald's death certificate at the Marion County Hall of Records. I believe one can check in Indiana for a fee, but I'm not certain as it varies greatly from state to state. California is an open records state (though far less so in the last decade), while Arizona and New York only allow records at least 50 years old to be accessed.


#1484 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:44

Hello Folks,


One question i'm not sure has been asked yet due to it's speculative and very sensative nature is this ,had Dave not been hit by any other cars , had he allready been injured to the point where those injuries were eventually gonna be fatal despite the best available treatment ?
I am very aware it might be a question some might find a bit morbid ,but after seeing the Nalon crash from 1949, would it have been possible Dave might yet have survived his impact with the inner wall and that fireball if he had not slid back into the path of the others.
That being the case , it seems to me the very design of the walls on the front straight played a big a part in the 2nd impact as anything else Dave could had done. This would be even a bigger reason for some to try to totally assign blame to Dave and the Thompson car.

Was the wall Dave 1st impacted on the very wall that Keith Andrews had hit in 1957 with fatal results as well?


Paul




Yes, this remains a bit morbid indeed.

Eddie is told not to have survived the impact.
Bob Falcon in the USAC reports as written in "the Alternate" told it to have been a 100G impact. So why Eddie got killed and Dave not?
Morbid as it seems, the only explanation I can come up with are:

1) Eddie must have hit the Thompson primarily at the rear wheel and engine level (At the rear of the car) so that the cockpit (and Dave) was barely hit at all.

2) The fuel tank on the Thompson still contained a lot of fuel and this mass of fuel in a flexible bag `kind of absorbed`a lot of energy from the impact to offer some protection for Dave not to be hit by the Shrike. The enormous fireball could be an approval for the dispensed energy of mass that belonged to the car being "freed from the chassis" and desintegrating. But with this mass being a flammable liquid it instantly bursting into flames as well, creating that massive fireball, So massive, despite the fact that it actually involved much less gasoline then most writings/people suggested it to have been in the past.

If the fire could have been extinguished much faster then it eventually was, maybe that could have helped Dave to some extend. I don't know however how much less damage his lungs would have had and if in the long term it should have become fatal after all. (a kind of Swede Savage experience?)
When talking about a 100G impact, Bov Falcon correctly stated that the inernal injuries for both drivers must have been severe. I don't know, have never read anything about it, if Dave also had internal injuries being diagnosed. But given his burns etc, it didn't really matter that much anymore. The burns were fatal as they were.
But should those not have been fatal but `only` serious, then it remains a question if the possible (likely???) internal injuries would nave have been fatal instead and when.

I apologize to everyone who feels that this reasoning and explaining is morbid and tasteless. But I also posted this because I feel it possibly gives an explanation as of why the big explosion after the impact, this despite that we know by now that at the very max there was some 60 gallons of fuel invold instead of 150 if not more. Something that for many people is difficult to accept.


Henri

#1485 Long-time Indy 500 Fan

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 21:06

This Internet photo (URL below) of the fuel compartment and fuel bladder on the left side of the car is from the Mickey Thompson Motersports web-site. It states that the fuel bladder held 47 gallons of fuel. Considering start/warm up, parade and pace laps, and almost 2 laps of racing there was probably about 44 gallons of gasoline in the bladder at the time of the crash. The previous post (1484) is a very plausible explanation/theory of the actual crash; especially considering that MacDonald's car was still sliding and at about a 60 degrees angle when Sachs' car hit him. Trailing cars hitting and/or running MacDonald's and Sachs' cars after their crash impact resulted in the final sideways locations of the cars on the track. Watching the YouTube video at 10-11 seconds into the video shows the angle of MacDonald's car and subsequent impact.

Fuel compartment/fuel bladder;

http://thompson-moto...m/indy6311.html

YouTube crash video;



I do not believe that MacDonald could have survived the fire even if his car had not slid back onto the track and been involved in the crash. Gasoline fires are extremely hot, they did not have the protective suits and head gear of today, and he simply would have suffered horrible burns and breathed in too much fire into his lungs. Even with no crash, he would have spent at least a minute, probably more, sitting in the middle of that inferno.




#1486 TomSlick57

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 03:56

Posted Image

#1487 HistoricMustang

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:22

The October 2010 issue of Muscle Machines Magazine has an article on Dave and drives home the point of his brilliant career being swept under the rug after Indy 1964.

Here is only the cover shot for copyright purposes.

For those without access to the magazine send me a PM and I will forward the article.

Henry :wave:

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

#1488 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 20:45

My e.mail address is below, Henry...

Please send me a copy.

#1489 HistoricMustang

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 21:02

Ray, on the way so let me know if you do not recieve.

Added a surprise for you! :clap:

Henry :wave:

#1490 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 22:12

Thank you, Henry...

Received and read. Good pics!

#1491 Andrew Hope

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:46

Posted Image


Jesus. Poor bastard. Better to be blown into a million little pieces than what happened to him.

#1492 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:06

Jesus. Poor bastard. Better to be blown into a million little pieces than what happened to him.


Hi Andrew,

This message is not intended to insult you, no offence intended OK?

But I must say that I regret that you used the word "bastard"

I know, ln today's language is much more rough and cruel with words that not so long ago wers used as insults nowadays being used without meaning it. Let's thank the ( c)rap culture for that.
And the rest of your message seems not to indicate you bear a grudge to Dave like other people do.

But in this case, given the fact that the sentiments about Dave MacDonald have been so negative and aversive ever since this accident I think that even use the word `bastard` loosely is inappropriate and uselessly cruel.
This threat has proven that a lot of negative emaotions about Dave MacDonald are not entirely justified at all.
I am sure you had no intention to be cruel on Dave but I hope you see and understand that in this case your use of words is unlucky.

Thanks for your attention.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 25 October 2010 - 12:07.


#1493 Jones Foyer

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 16:57

Hi Andrew,

This message is not intended to insult you, no offence intended OK?

But I must say that I regret that you used the word "bastard"

I know, ln today's language is much more rough and cruel with words that not so long ago wers used as insults nowadays being used without meaning it. Let's thank the ( c)rap culture for that.
And the rest of your message seems not to indicate you bear a grudge to Dave like other people do.

But in this case, given the fact that the sentiments about Dave MacDonald have been so negative and aversive ever since this accident I think that even use the word `bastard` loosely is inappropriate and uselessly cruel.
This threat has proven that a lot of negative emaotions about Dave MacDonald are not entirely justified at all.
I am sure you had no intention to be cruel on Dave but I hope you see and understand that in this case your use of words is unlucky.

Thanks for your attention.


Henri


In his defense, the phrase "poor bastard" as said in the United States is common when referring to someone who tragically dies, a comrade, a friend, and associate, someone who is dear. World War II movies, soldiers would remark "poor bastard" in the shock of someone being killed.


#1494 ZOOOM

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 17:58

I just finished Henri's terrific article on the MacDonald story. Great read, and I recommend it to all.

While reading it I remembered something.
For years and years before the race in question, all of the cars were powered by Offys. They almost universally ran on alcohol.

How do you put out an alcohol fire? You put water on it. Dilute it...
If you were in charge of fire fighting services for the 500, and for years all the cars used alcohol,
wouldn't you use fire fighting equipment loaded with ............ water?
Wouldn't all of the fire fighting units, which had been comming to the race for eons, from local fire departments,
be equipped with.... water? After all, it would be what the trucks were equipped with all the time anyway...
No need to change anything on the fire trucks just for the race. Besides fires were few and far between anyway,
wern't they?

I'm willing to bet that with so few cars using gasoline, and then only for the race, that all the fire apparatus
were only equipped with.... water.
Gasoline floats on water. Spray water on a gasoline fire and you just spread it around further.
All accounts say that the fire was extreemly hard to knock down.
Was water the reason?

ZOOOM

#1495 ZOOOM

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 18:43

Here's a picture of my uncle. He was the fire chief of River Forest Il.
Posted Image

He was assigned to Mario's pit his first year. He is carrying a 25 pound CO2 extinguisher.
He told me that before Mario's rookie season they were all assigned to carry pressurized water extinguishers.
Mario was a rookie in '65, the year AFTER the Sachs, MacDonald accident
ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 25 October 2010 - 18:50.


#1496 HistoricMustang

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 20:29

I just finished Henri's terrific article on the MacDonald story. Great read, and I recommend it to all.

ZOOOM


Here is the link:

http://forix.autospo...troduction.html

Outstanding piece of work!

Henry :wave:

#1497 Lemnpiper

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:45


Great Article Henri ,


One thing though , earlier in this thread Ovifan(?) posted the same pic of Sachs , Duman Rutherford and Unser approaching Dave's car and didnt have Stevenson mostly hidden by the Rutherford car It was at about post # 1306 which seems to have been deleted. As i also recall Stevenson was in fact behind the group of White ,Chesbourg in one of the pics.

Also as i read the article i was wondering if any of the living survivors from the race have made any recent comments about this thread or that article if they have in fact read them as to how some of the early beleifs of what went on have been debunked?


Thanks

Paul






#1498 Henri Greuter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 05:25

In his defense, the phrase "poor bastard" as said in the United States is common when referring to someone who tragically dies, a comrade, a friend, and associate, someone who is dear. World War II movies, soldiers would remark "poor bastard" in the shock of someone being killed.



OK,

I wasn't aware of that.
In that case I must apologize to Andrew because from his message it is clear that he simpathizes with Dave.

Andrew:

hereby, I had no intentions to offend you but wanted to bring something undoer your attention and I spoke out. I am sure that your intentions were not negative.
Nevertheless hereby: My apologies.

Henri

#1499 Long-time Indy 500 Fan

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 15:22

Here is the link:

http://forix.autospo...troduction.html

Outstanding piece of work!

Henry :wave:

I agree, an excellent piece of work! This is an excellent recap of this forum's information that also includes valuable additional reference material from other sources that are credited.

Advertisement

#1500 HistoricMustang

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 22:57

I just finished Henri's terrific article on the MacDonald story. Great read, and I recommend it to all.

While reading it I remembered something.
For years and years before the race in question, all of the cars were powered by Offys. They almost universally ran on alcohol.

How do you put out an alcohol fire? You put water on it. Dilute it...
If you were in charge of fire fighting services for the 500, and for years all the cars used alcohol,
wouldn't you use fire fighting equipment loaded with ............ water?
Wouldn't all of the fire fighting units, which had been comming to the race for eons, from local fire departments,
be equipped with.... water? After all, it would be what the trucks were equipped with all the time anyway...
No need to change anything on the fire trucks just for the race. Besides fires were few and far between anyway,
wern't they?

I'm willing to bet that with so few cars using gasoline, and then only for the race, that all the fire apparatus
were only equipped with.... water.
Gasoline floats on water. Spray water on a gasoline fire and you just spread it around further.
All accounts say that the fire was extreemly hard to knock down.
Was water the reason?

ZOOOM


Hi Zooom. :wave:

Got a message from Dave's brother Doug and he noticed that the photograph in post #1491 indicates perhaps a CO2 extinguisher being used.

Which brings up the question if perhaps CO2's were used on course and the Water (H2O) type in pits. Any idea about all of this?

Also, Doug wants to thank all of the TNF members for their efforts in investigating Indy 1964.

Henry :wave: