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Can anyone identify this car?


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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 09:48

A genuine mystery this time - I have no idea what this is.

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The picture was used in a Kodak advert in the 1972 Pocono 500 program. The 'A' after the #12 implies it's a Formula A car. Could that be a LeGrand?

Allen

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#2 Cirrus

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 10:29

The wheels certainly look like the ones I have seen in LeGrand pistures. I think you may have answered your own question.

#3 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 13:11

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Here is the LeGrand at Elkhart Lake in 1968.
At Elkhart Lake the cars engine broke bringing the car to the starting grid.

Hi Allen: The car in the picture is the Factory LeGrand Formula A or 5000 car with me in it at Riverside in 1968.

Red LeGrand owned the chassis and I provided the motor and gearbox. It was a very nice car but very light. It was a Formula B car with a Chevy engine stuffed in it. Had go-kart brakes and weak uprights. I won this National race at Riverside.

During a race at Santa Barbara I pulled in the pits while the race was going and asked my brother Hershey how I was doing. He said great get back out there. Those were the days. I won that race. I won another race at Riverside with the car, it was just a club race.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 13 July 2011 - 11:35.


#4 Cirrus

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 14:16

Only on TNF!...................

#5 MCS

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 15:09

Originally posted by Cirrus
Only on TNF!...................


:lol: Absolutely!

What a fantastic response! :clap:

#6 David Birchall

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 15:11

"Had Go Kart brakes"!! :eek: Holy sh.. :eek:

#7 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 15:40

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This is the LeGrand in the Pits at Elkhart Lake in 1968.
The girl on the armco was Dick Smothers friend. The brakes on the car were made by a company called Airheart. They were located in California. Bob and Frank Airheart were the owners.They specialized in go-cart and mini bike brakes. Red LeGrand also used clear hard plastic lines for the brake lines.

This car was later modified with bigger rear uprights after the first ones failed at Donnybrooke, Minnesota and the brakes were replaced with Larger ones. Red made his own wheels and was a great guy. He made a DSR with a motorcycle engine that the design is still copied today. He was way ahead of his time. Red LeGrand was a great craftsman and also a great friend.

At this race at Elkhart Lake the mechanic was bringing the car around to the grid for the start of the race reving it like crazy and the front timing sproket broke. Thus, I never got to run in the race.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 27 December 2010 - 13:40.


#8 Paul Medici

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 15:47

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Probably not the same car, but a pretty close relative now residing in Chicago.

The photo is from last years BRIC.
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#9 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 16:08

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Jerry Entin getting out of the Fred Pipin owned Lola T-70 at Elkhart Lake in 1968
Fred Pipin and Harvey Lasiter also in this picture. This was from practice. This was the same weekend as the F-A cars were running.

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Fred Pipin in the Jack Douglass sponsored Lola T-70 at Elkhart Lake in 1968
This is Fred Pipin in the Lola T-70 at the Road America 500. I was his co-driver. I qualified that Lola T70-3B, 6th. . It was the ex-Motschenbacher Dana Chev car. Fred Pipin started the race and ran off course and I never got to drive the car in the race.

Paul: There were two cars made about the same time. The one I had I put a ZF gearbox in. The one Sam Posey drove had a Hewland LG. Sam drove the car for a buddy of his from school named Peter Botsford. I bought the ZF gearbox from Carroll Shelby's GT 40 spare parts for I believe $750 . The engine I used was a stock chevy 305 with a larger oil pan some head work and a set of weber 48 carbs. I took this car to Elkhart Lake in 1968 and didn't qualify very well I believe 12th. At the beginning of the race a mechanic named John Middelton was bringing the car to the line reving it like crazy and the front timing gear broke and I didn't get to run. We brought the car back to Red's shop in California and fixed the gear.

We than took the car out to Riverside to shake it down in a National club race. I had to start last because we got there late and didn't get to qualify. I won that race.

top photo: Bill Bonow collection
bottom photo : Tom Schultz.
copyright 2006 Tom Schultz

Edited by Jerry Entin, 04 April 2011 - 04:21.


#10 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 16:25

Thanks Jerry

Now I know what it is, I see it exactly matches a picture you sent me a few years ago. I just couldn't make the connection.

@Paul - whose LeGrand was that at BRIC?

Allen

#11 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 16:32

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Wolfgang Klopfer seemed to like the car also. He used it on the cover of his paperback version of Formula A and Formula 5000 in America. This is a very well written book and anyone who is interested in Formula 5000 racing in the states should see a copy of it.

To get a copy of the book contact Wolfgang at : turn6@hotmail.com

#12 Paul Medici

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 16:33

Thank you Jerry.

Here is another view from the BRIC. The car will be raced next season by Mike Argetsinger.


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#13 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 16:42

Hey Paul, great pictures. Mind if I use one of them on Oldracingcars.com?

Allen

#14 Paul Medici

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:02

Allen - the car belongs to the (John) Mayer Racing Team in Chicago.

Feel free to use the photos. There is another photo of the engine in the "Road America - BRIC....."
thread.
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#15 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:08

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This is the Factory car at Elkhart Lake with the body off in 1968.

Those are great pictures Paul. That red car in the post above is owned by Bob and Bill Mayer of the Chicago area. Their car has the Hewland LG gearbox and bigger brakes,

Sam Posey took a LeGrand Mk 7 to Mosport in 1968 and was the fastest qualifier. This was a Formula 5000 race and he put it on the pole. He felt it was very light and that the chassis flexed. And the suspension was not strong enough to hold the Formula 5000 engine.

photo: Tom Schultz -
copyright 2006 Tom Schultz.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 August 2010 - 04:09.


#16 David McKinney

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:23

As this seems to be a LeGrand FA thread, does anyone know which car Rex Ramsey raced in the 1968 run-offs?
Jerry?
I'm especially interested as it raced in New Zealand at the end of that year

#17 David Birchall

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:35

I used to own a Lotus 23B #119 that had LeGrand wheels on it when I got it. About the same size as those in the picture and they were gold also. Were all LeGrand wheels gold from the factory?
David B

#18 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 17:48

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This is the Mk 11 LeGrand. It was built by Rex Ramsey and Jack Smith.
All LeGrand wheels were gold when I was involved with him. In 1969 Rex Ramsey took this car called the Mk11 to the Canadian Gulf series. It had a higher wing on it. The one I drove had no wings. The one I drove was called a MK 7. Rex lives in Hawaii now and he told me he drove this car last year at the LeGrand Reunion at Elkhart Lake.
photo lent to site by Glenn Miller

#19 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 18:09

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Dave Wolin's car
The site below tells the story of Dave Wolin's experience with the LeGrand Mk 7:
www.davewolin.com/f5000.htm


photo lent site Dave Wolin

Edited by Jerry Entin, 02 December 2009 - 06:58.


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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:12

Thanks Jerry
It's a bit of an exaggeration to say Ramsey contested the Tasman Series though, or that he won a race.
The Tasman series was still restricted to 2.5-litre cars at that time but one New Zealand circuit, Bay Park, was anxious to promote FA/5000 and paid for a bunch of Americans to race their cars in one event. Ramsey finished third, a lap behind Ron Grable in the Spectre
I'll bang off an emal to him

#21 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:22

I spoke to Dave Wolin and he built his car from a kit. So not the Ramsey car.

Allen

#22 Duncan Fox

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 19:47

The Gary Devon Collection here in Auckland has a 5000 LaGrand which was imported in the early 90s' by the late Ken White. Where does this fit into the picture?

#23 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 20:33

It's said to be chassis 003 and have had a first owner Gene Forsthofel (Overland Park, KA). I'd be surprised if Forsthofel was the first owner but he may have been a later owner. I know White raced it at Whenuapai 1995 so it's been in NZ a while.

Allen

#24 Vicuna

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 20:38

Ken White won 3 out of 3 races at Whenuapai in March 1993.

He wondered if it was the Rex Ramsey car.

No car that ever goes into the Garry Devon cave ever seems to emerge again.

#25 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 21:38

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This is Rex Ramsey in the LeGrand Mk11 at Trois Rivers in 1969
I stand corrected Rex Ramsey won a race in the Canadian series called the 1969 Gulf Canadian Series. This was at Trois Rivers in 1969 on Sept.14th. Against other Formula 5000 cars. I was wrong about the Tasman. I believe Rex ran a Mk7 in New Zealand and finished 3rd at Bay Park. In a race that was to show the fans Formula 5000 cars. Not the Tasman series.
photo lent site by Glenn Miller

#26 David McKinney

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 05:26

That sounds better
My notes have Ramsey as winner of that race, but I had no car identified
So thanks for that :up:

#27 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:52

My rather sketchy results of the race:

http://www.oldracing...asp?RaceID=K69G

I'm still hoping to find the qualifying times one day.

Allen

#28 275 GTB-4

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 11:32

Warm Welcome Jerry - small things amuse small minds - love the red tennis ball trumpet protectors!! :blush:

#29 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 13:29

Hi GTB- 4: I had a GTB - 4 . Mine was a 1967 I believe. Geroge Eaton asked to drive it in Riverside in I think 1969. We left his hotel on I think University Street. And went up the freeway and came down an off ramp a few miles up. He pegged the speedometer coming down the hill. I told him whoa were going over 160mph and the ticket would be a monster. He said he was a Canadian and it didn't count against him. I said does going to jail count against you. He said yeah that counts and slowed down. Thanks for the warm welcome.

#30 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 16:05

Jerry has suggested this as good background reading:

http://dsr.racer.net...and/history.htm

Allen

#31 David Pozzi

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 19:45

I autocrossed an Eisert Chev against perhaps the same Legrand around 1979. It was the same as the red car in the photos although I don't remember it being red at the time. The owner was from the San Jose area and the car handled very well on the tight courses, they said it had a limited slip not the cam and pawl, the trans was a Hewland and it had solid rotor disc brakes with Airheart calipers.
David

#32 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 23:31

Posted Image
Here is a car Rex Ramsey made himself in 1971 he called it the ASD. Red LeGrand didn't want his Formula 5000 car to advance beyond a tube frame car. ASD stood for Aero Structures Developement. Rex Ramsey and Jack Smith built this car using lessons Rex had learned while building the MK11 LeGrand. Rex rented a shop in VanNuys, California near the shop of Al Bartz the engine builder. He also recieved help from Tom Jobe and Bob Skinner who pitched in to make the ASD. This car was based on the latest most advanced aircraft thinking of the day. It was driven by Gus Hutchison in the Questor Grand Prix. It was later sold to Ron Grable who changed the name to American Mk1. Ron Grable finished 2nd at Edmonton with the car. It was later wrecked by him at Donnybrooke in practice where he broke bones in his right leg.

Chuck Jones was good friends with Jerry Eisert and he repaired a tub for me in 1974 on a Lola T-330. He did it in Chuck Jones shop. He did a very good job and did it very fast as I remember. I think he believed in stronger is better. Which is why his cars are probably still around. Jerry Eisert has sadly passed away.
photo lent site by Glenn Miller all research by Wolfgang Klopfer.

#33 275 GTB-4

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 10:17

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Hi GTB- 4: I had a GTB - 4 . Mine was a 1967 I believe. Geroge Eaton asked to drive it in Riverside in I think 1969. We left his hotel on I think University Street. And went up the freeway and came down an off ramp a few miles up. He pegged the speedometer coming down the hill. I told him whoa were going over 160mph and the ticket would be a monster. He said he was a Canadian and it didn't count against him. I said does going to jail count against you. He said yeah that counts and slowed down. Thanks for the warm welcome. Jerry


But what about the engine note!! :wave: Unfortunately, I never actually took the wheel of one on the road....just had a couple of spirited rides with feet braced against the bar in the footwell and getting buried deeper and deeper into the seat....a wonderful feeling, sex on wheels :blush: :)

#34 Jerry Entin

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 12:30

Posted Image
This is the Trojan that Sid Taylor and I ran in 1973. Jody Scheckter won the 1973 L&M Series in it.
David McKinney: In 1973 Sid Taylor wanted to take the Trojan we had run down to the Tasman Series. I was against it because we had no sponsorship to go there. During the year Max Stewart had engine trouble and Sid loaned him one of ours. I didn't understand it then because that engine cost us alot of money in those days. Max and his friends were a very nice group of guys. Sid was all for helping them because he knew if we didn't loan them an engine they were done for. A few years later Sid Taylor went to Australia and those guys treated him like a king. As they say what goes around comes around. Now of course I wish we would have gone to the Tasman Series. Sadly Max Stewart was killed in a racing accident. He was a very fun loving guy and great to be around.

#35 David Pozzi

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 02:38

Jerry,
Nice to hear from you! :)

Do you remember Jack Eiteljorg?
He raced a lola T-140 I now own, he sold it to Steve Pfeiffer, I bought it from Steve. I have been in contact with Pfeiffer but have no info on Eiteljorg.

I met Red LeGrand in 1978, I was at Willow Springs for the Jim Russel driving school and Red's shop was nearby, he was in there making wheels. I spent 5 days of school with Johnny Kastner, and there was a film crew for Fantasy Island there and they shot John Morton driving a F5000 lola, even strapped a camera to it and drove it around the track.
David

#36 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 08:03

David

I'm pretty confident that Hank Candler had that T140 from new. John Barker was Candler's mechanic and may have been Eiteljorg's so that's two more people who may be able to help you with the history of your car - if only we could find them!

All three (Candler, Eiteljorg and Barker) were from Colorado.

Allen

#37 Huw Jadvantich

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:28

I read on another thread recently about a small racing car that looked like a Lauda/Regazzoni Ferrari 312. The comment was made in that thread that they hadn't come across any other cars that were made to look like F1 cars.
It made me think of a collection that I had seen where there was half a dozen of them - Bennetons, McLaren MP4s etc - but each of them was a Ralt or a Reynard.
It is the same collection that this LeGrand has gone into, refered to above.

#38 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 14:28

Here's a Terry Marshall picture (via Jerry and Wolfgang Klopfer) of the 1968 Bay Park race. From left to right are Stew McMillan (Eisert '68), Ron Grable (Spectre), Pierre Philips (Lola T140) and Rex Ramsey (LeGrand Mk 7 or Mk 7A).

Posted Image

Allen

Edited by Allen Brown, 05 May 2009 - 08:37.


#39 Mac Lark

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 21:18

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
I read on another thread recently about a small racing car that looked like a Lauda/Regazzoni Ferrari 312. The comment was made in that thread that they hadn't come across any other cars that were made to look like F1 cars.
It made me think of a collection that I had seen where there was half a dozen of them - Bennetons, McLaren MP4s etc - but each of them was a Ralt or a Reynard.
It is the same collection that this LeGrand has gone into, refered to above.


Who would know Huw - does the collection, previosly referred to as 'a cave' ever get opened to the public? I understand the cars are not presented that well but I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe new TNF member Terrible Terry Marshall can tell us if that shot was a publicity job - I've only been wondering that for close to 37 years.

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#40 Cynic

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 14:21

My recollection is that the first LeGrand FA/F5000 crashed in testing, with Lou Sell driving. Sell had not planned to drive and was wearing just a polo shirt, and did just a few laps to shake the car down. I believe he suffered some rather serious burns in the accident.

A very early LeGrand FA went to Dr Don Richardson, in New Orleans, who shared a shop with us. He had a lot of trouble getting the car sorted out and reliable, but finally won a few SCCA amateur races.

I have photos of this car (which was a metallic turquise tub with a white bodyshell, and used a five liter Chevy. I'll get them converted from slides.

#41 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 14:44

That wasn't Sell, that was Bruce Eglinton.

Your former shopmate amused me greatly by advertising his car as "1250 lbs of rotting hell". Did he ever manage to sell it?

Allen

#42 David McKinney

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 15:43

Did Dr Sell crash a LeGrand FA too?
He was entered to drive one at Bay Park in Dec 1968 but the drive was taken over by Ramsey after Sell had been involved in an accident. A different one?

#43 Jerry Entin

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 15:56

Posted Image
Rex Ramsey in 1969 in the Mk7 LeGrand with better engine and High wing. Rex Ramsey and Max Balchowsky made this motor. They built it at Max's shop Hollywood Motors. The wing and wing mounts were built by Jack Smith and Rex Ramsey. This engine was originally in Rex's first Formula 5000 car called a Wadsworth. Rex believes this is at Riverside.


Dr. Lou Sell a very good guy and dentist was badly burnt I believe in an Indy type Eagle at I think Riverside. That is why he couldn't run the LeGrand and Rex Ramsey took over. Red LeGrand was as good as they come as a craftsman and a person. He wanted to make a car similar to the Radical DSR for people to be able to get involved in racing at a reasonable price. He was way ahead of his times. Lou Sell was the 1968 US Formula A or 5000 Champion driving an Eagle. Dick Smothers of the comedy Team sponsored him. Dick Smothers also drove a Formula B type car in the series in 1968. It was a Brabham Ford.

Posted Image
Dr. Lou Sell looking at the Ron Courtney driven Lola.
photos lent to site by Glenn Miller

Edited by Jerry Entin, 04 April 2011 - 04:23.


#44 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 16:15

The problem with Red's Formula A car was that it wasn't sufficiently beefed up for the 300ci engines and was based too closely on the highly successful Mk 3B Formula B car. Sam Posey believed it was too dangerous to drive - even after setting pole with one at Mosport in August that year. It took a lot of pursuasion to get him to drive the opening lap before finding an excuse to retire. I've heard many stories of the car flexing under cornering.

Allen

#45 Jerry Entin

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 17:07

Allen: Everything you have just said is of course true. The Chevron had the exact troubles when they took a Formula Two car and stuffed a Chevy in it. The main thing wrong with the Formula B type cars was they needed stronger rear upright to handle the torque. After LeGrand and Chevron went to bigger rear uprights the cars didn't seem to break. Red Legrand also used clear hard plastic lines for his brake lines. Something I have never seen anyone else try. This was in 1968 that he was doing it. His car was a copy of a Lotus 22 type body looking car with a tube frame that Red himself had built. Very nice and compact. Also way to light. A rear wing would have done wonders also.

#46 Cynic

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 20:51

Hi, Allen,

This is (Dr.) Don Richardson, in what I have identified as a LeGrand Mk 7, in early 1968. I don't remember the track, but it was probably in Texas. Don tried all sorts of things to make this car work, and as you noted in his sale ad, was never happy with the car. A couple of these have good detail on the chassis and suspension, but he seems to have had some problems setting up the right front corner -- check the tire tread.

By the time I left New Orleans several years later he had not sold it to my knowledge.

David


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And, Jerry, this one's for you. I'm not sure where it belongs -- was it originally a Cheetah, or something else? It's Dick Durant at the ARRC in Daytona in 1967, driving the Durant/Chevy. I have a couple of photos of Ralph Salyer in his McKee at the same event I'll add to that thread when I clean them up. I also have some more LeGrand photos, of at least one FB and a DSR. When I get back I'll have them converted to digital too.

Sorry for the dark image -- it was late in the afternoon.

Posted Image

#47 Allen Brown

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 21:27

David

Great pictures!! Can I use those on OldRacingCars.com? I have prepared a page on the LeGrand Mk 7 but only have one picture, from Jerry, and none of the car with the body off so I've never published the page.

And you have colour pictures from the 1967 ARRC! That's something else I've never seen. Get those pictures converted!

Many thanks

Allen

#48 Cynic

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 21:43

Allen,

You're welcome to use the LeGrand Mk 7 photos on your site; I would appreciate the appropriate credit.

It may be slow going to get all the slides converted -- I'm trying to do some of the more interesting cars first. I did just add a photo of Ralph Salyer's McKee at Daytona in '67 to that thread.

Having looked at your site, there's another photo which may interest you. In 1979 Al Holbert was running what was almost certainly a Lola T332 CanAm car. His engines were built by Junior Johnson, for whom Al had driven in NASCAR. In March the team was testing at Road Atlanta, and had gone through several engines. On Friday afternoon the crew built up an engine from the remains of the other engines, and Al took the car out on Saturday morning. As they were just breaking the engine in, the fire system had not been armed. I was testing at the track the same day, and Al's crew asked me to see what had happened to Al, as he hadn't come around.

I found him between Turns Five and Six. The high pressure fuel line had popped off, and sprayed fuel on the headers. This was a bit later, after the car had burned for probably 15 or 20 minutes. I believe I was the only person there with a camera, and I have several photos of the end of this particular Lola.

David Seibert


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#49 Jerry Entin

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 22:16

That is one real expensive looking wennie roast. Thanks for putting up the LeGrand photos Dave. They are great. On the LeGrand I ran we only put in a stock 305 engine. It had Weber 48mm carbs and a roller cam and mild head work and a bigger oil pan. Maybe 420 hp. Sam Posey had a good engine in his car. He told me it was a Ford. We were going to put in an engine from Al Bartz but he needed a month or so to make it. When they finally got the better engine. I never drove the car. This car was the first and only open wheel car I ever got to drive. Rex Ramsey drove it after I did.

Dick Durant's car seems to have American Racing wheels which are the same type used on the Cheetah's. Dick has put the driver on the right. In the Cheetah you sat on the left. I don't know if he used any other Cheetah components in his car. It looks very quick. Although I am sure he had the same trouble as the Cheetah's, trying to keep up with rear engined sports racers was impossible.

#50 RA Historian

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 02:47

Originally posted by Cynic
Hi, Allen,



And, Jerry, this one's for you. I'm not sure where it belongs -- was it originally a Cheetah, or something else? It's Dick Durant at the ARRC in Daytona in 1967, driving the Durant/Chevy. I have a couple of photos of Ralph Salyer in his McKee at the same event I'll add to that thread when I clean them up. I also have some more LeGrand photos, of at least one FB and a DSR. When I get back I'll have them converted to digital too.

Sorry for the dark image -- it was late in the afternoon.

Posted Image


That is Dick Durant in his Durant Special which was indecently fast for a home-built front engine car against the rear engine cars of the day. To the best of my knowledge it had no Le Grand parts in it, but was pure "Durant".