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Can anyone identify this car?


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#51 Jerry Entin

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 08:29

Posted Image
Dave Pozzi: Here is Jack Eiteljorg at Elkhart with his wife Debbie Drake.


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My kind of pit crew.
Photos lent to site by Tom Schultz. photos by Mark Daniels. copyright 2006 Mark Daniels

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#52 Jerry Entin

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 00:24

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This is the second edition Of Formula 5000 in America. It is 211 pages with 167 black and white pictures. It is avaliable from the author. The book sell for $40 including shipping. Payment via www.paypal.com to faracer_99@yahoo.com

#53 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 04:44

Great pictures, everyone...

These cars were always the best.

#54 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 14:15

I have just published my LeGrand Mk 7 on OldRacingCars.com. All additions and corrections warmly welcomed.

Allen

#55 David McKinney

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 15:30

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I have just published my LeGrand Mk 7 on OldRacingCars.com. All additions and corrections warmly welcomed.

Allen


Wot, no Sell? No Ramsey?

#56 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 15:51

Oops - the latter half of the works car's history seems to have got lost. I'll fix that quickly.

I still maintain that Sell never drove one.

Allen

#57 Jerry Entin

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 02:10

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This is the LeGrand Mk 7 that I drove.
Later fitted with high wing by Jack Smith and Rex Ramsey. Painted Black and run by Rex Ramsey. It had a ZF gearbox.

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Rex Ramsey and his good friend the late Jack Smith, Master mechanic
The good looking girl is Dale Green. She was working for Edith Head design at the time. They made costumes for movies and was Rex Ramsey's good friend and went to all the races with Rex.


photos by Glenn Miller

Edited by Jerry Entin, 13 July 2011 - 11:31.


#58 Jerry Entin

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 02:59

Posted Image
LeGrand FA car at Riverside 1968. Red LeGrand in Cowboy hat.
John Middelton helping and at the back of the car Jerry Entin.
photo lent site John Wilson
Here is more of John Wilson's work:
http://vintagemotors...photography.com
http://homepage.mac....5000/index.html


#59 hiteknz

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 04:05

Originally posted by Vicuna
Ken White won 3 out of 3 races at Whenuapai in March 1993.

He wondered if it was the Rex Ramsey car.

No car that ever goes into the Garry Devon cave ever seems to emerge again.


Ken White had quite a "big off" at Pukeohe in that car perhaps around 1995 ,I remember Dennis Loftus repairing it and him bringing the oil cooler to me to repair ,it being of the same "condensor" type shape as in most of the photos on here,there was a lot of damage to the rear,I remember noting the light construction of the car at the time and commenting on same to him

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#60 Jerry Entin

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 04:13

Hiteknz: To say the car was flimsy would be an under statement. I had never driven another open wheel car before this. It was a fun car. I wish it would have had a rear wing. No one knew that was the way to go yet.
Red LeGrand was a very hard working and innovative craftsman. I am glad Allen Brown started this thread so Red's work could be seen on this site.

#61 GD66

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 04:18

Just to add to the confusion, re the Rex Ramsay car at Bay Park, NZ. The car had a small nose cone intake, and was painted plain white, but with the chrome strips on the side tanks. Had no wing, but from memory a small ducktail on the rear of the engine cover, with an oil radiator mounted up in the breeze in front of the ducktail. Ramsay drove in a black openface helmet with sunglasses. You would imagine the car would be the 003 chassis that surfaced in NZ, as mentioned on Allen's site. I believe the Eisert A (known as The Fat One) stayed in NZ as well, and I think I recall Dennis Marwood galloping it subsequently, but it was an enormous chassis, and could never have been very competitive. Regarding the Dr Lou Sell entry, it was implied at the time that he had driven the car before his crash prevented him attending, but I seem to recall his early Formula A racing was all done in an Eagle. The Bay Park race, won by Ron Grable in the aggressively-styled Spectre HR-1, built by Ken Holden, was a spectacular and successful introduction to NZ fans of the F5000 philosophy. :eek:

#62 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 11:33

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
photo lent site John Wilson
Here is more of John Wilson's work:
http://homepage.mac....5000/index.html

Wow! Great pictures!

No captions but I can identify most of them. Working from the back, the first batch are from the 1966 American Road Race of Champions (aka the 'Run-Offs') at Riverside: pictures 99 and 103 show race winner Harry McIntosh in his ex-F1 Brabham BT7 with V8 Climax and pictures 101 and 102 show Ed Mackey in his second placed Cooper-Alfa. I've never known what sort of Cooper Mackey had but that's either a T45 or a T51. It has the bob tail of a T51 but it could be an ex-works T45. No scoop on the nose - that should tell me something but I can't remember what...

Picture 100 is third-placed John Timanus's Lotus 18, also running in FA that day (i.e. anything up to 3-litres) but I don't know what engine he had. I also don't know whether it was an ex-FJ or ex-F1 Lotus 18. Anyone recognise it?

Another batch are the 1968 Run-Offs. Picture 98 is Stew McMillan in the '65 Eisert, #97 is (I think) Henry Hester's FB McLaren M4A, #96 is hard to identify but if it's still Riverside 1968 then it would be Dave Webster's FB Brabham BT23, #95 is definitely Riverside '68 and is Jerry Hansen's Lola T140, #94 is Bud Morley's converted ex-Can-Am McLaren FA car, don't know what #93 is but the entry list says it should be Skeeter McKitterick's Formula C Lotus 22, #92 would be Sandy Shephard's FB Lotus 41C, #91 is Roger Barr's FB Crossle, #90 is Chuck Dietrich's McLaren M4B and #89 and #88 are the sister FC Forsgrinis of Lyle Forsgren and Mike Campbell.

I'll try to identify the next batch when I get a chance. This should be a thread of its own probably.

Allen

#63 flat-16

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 13:22

Wouldn’t it be a good move to re-title this thread to a LeGrand-theme, so as to aid the search engine?

I know you can’t edit posts after a month – Mr Moderator?

“Can anyone identify this car” is too anonymous for such a good thread!


Justin

#64 Jerry Entin

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 09:30

Posted Image
Red LeGrand and Bruce Eglinton at Riverside in 1967
This was a test for the new FA car called the Mk7.

Posted Image
Bruce Eglinton winning at Stardust Raceway in 1968.
This was the first win for the LeGrand Mk 7. Bruce Eglinton helped design the car and the body was designed by Don Stephan.
photos Don Stephan collection

#65 Jerry Entin

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:16

Posted Image
Red LeGrand and Bruce Eglinton celebrating the Vegas win.
Soon after this very happy moment. While testing a newer version of the Mk7 at Whiteman Airport in Pacoima, Ca. Bruce would be badly burnt and have to spend the next 2 years in recovery.
photo Don Stephan collection.

#66 Jerry Entin

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:35

Posted Image
Bruce Eglinton in the Mk3 LeGrand and Gene Levin in Mk4 LeGrand at Monterey in 2005.
This photo was taken in the Don Stephan pits. Don restored the Mk3 in his shop. Gene Levin is the original owner of his Mk4 LeGrand.
photo Don Stephan collection.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 13 July 2011 - 11:33.


#67 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 11:56

David getting back to the show at Bay Park for "F 5000" cars if I remember correctly the cars were billed as "Indy Cars" and it was run on the road circuit before the Raceway was built. I was not there as I would have been at the Nelson Beach Races [ the only time I ever went to Bay Park was much later on to run on the infield speedway in a sprintcar ] but I do remember the meeting being held as there was a lot of talk about the cars. I think the only car we had here that was anything like a F5000 car had been the Stanton Corvette before they changed it into a sports racer and the reason they did that was they could no longer run it as a open wheeler because they made the Tasman Series 2.5 L Maybe the Stanton was the worlds first F5000 car???

#68 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 12:48

Great pictures Jerry. Would Don Stephan be happy for me to use those on my page?

Peter - there are many possible claimants to the title of "first F5000". The terms wasn't used until 1970 of course but the first single-seater with a large US lump of an engine in the back is often said to be Chris Summers Lotus 24 in 1962. Or maybe the Tec-Mec-Chev or the Maybach-Corvette? Or Ted Avery's HWM-Cadillac? Or Ted Gray's Tornado-Chev? Or maybe nothing is original...

#69 Giraffe

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 13:12

In the UK at least, the inaugural F5000 race was held on Easter weekend 1969, and was won by Peter Gethin in the Church Farm Racing McLaren M10A; I was there to witness it.

The first car of that ilk that I saw run was Jim Charnock's 4.7 Cooper Cobra in 1968, but I'm not sure when he put that together; some years earlier, I believe.

#70 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 13:15

You are so right. I misspoke.

It was John Axon who put the Cobra in the Cooper T66, for the 1965 season.

#71 Macca

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 13:33

"Mis-spoke"!!!! That Hilaryism is getting quite popular!

There was the Kincraft, of course, and in early 1966 Brian Eccles had a hillclimb Brabham BT14 with a 4.5 Traco Olds.


Paul M

#72 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 13:35

Hillaryism

#73 David McKinney

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 13:53

Originally posted by Peter Leversedge
David getting back to the show at Bay Park for "F 5000" cars if I remember correctly the cars were billed as "Indy Cars" and it was run on the road circuit before the Raceway was built

The road circuit was also called a raceway but I know what you mean :)
The programme just listed the race as the Monaco International Trophy race, but elsewhere talks about 'Indy-type Formula A cars". From memory, everyone at the meeting called them Formula A cars.

#74 Mallory Dan

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 14:08

Originally posted by Macca
"Mis-spoke"!!!! That Hilaryism is getting quite popular!

There was the Kincraft, of course, and in early 1966 Brian Eccles had a hillclimb Brabham BT14 with a 4.5 Traco Olds.


Paul M


Does a Hillaryism mean a lie, I wonder where she gets that from...

#75 Jerry Entin

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 14:32

Posted Image
Bruce Eglinton at Stardust Raceway on his way to Victory in the LeGrand Mk7.

I am sure if Bruce Eglinton wouldn't have received his severe burns in his testing accident that the name LeGrand would have been far better known. Bruce was an experienced Formula driver with many wins under his belt. He had done quite a bit of testing with the Mk6 and the Mk7 LeGrands.
When I drove the car for Red LeGrand, I had never sat in a Formula type open wheel car in my life. I had no experience what so ever in one. I am positive had Bruce driven the Mk7 in the coming Pro series that the car would have done very well. It needed stronger rear uprights and also larger brakes to run in any distance race. It also needed a rear wing. In 1968, no Formula A cars as they were called, were using rear wings.

#76 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 12:15

I was talking on the phone tonight with Charlie Stanton who with his brother Maurice built and raced the Stanton Corvettes He said if he remembers correctly they built the first car in about 1958 as a front engined car [ it looked a bit like a Indy roadster ] but found it did not work very well as it did not have enough weight on the rear wheels and traction problems so in about 1959 or 60 they rebuilt it as a rear engined car and it worked a lot better. So if it was 1960 that they first raced it then it may have been the first F5000 or FA car in the world. [ being a rear engined single seat open wheel car with a large US stock block V8 in the rear ]
They could not obtain a transaxle that would take the power at the time so made there own system which consisted of a B/W T10 with a Ford V8 [Flathead] diff [ rear end centre ] attached to the rear of the trans and with two sprockets driving chains forward to the drive axles giving the lay out of a transaxle of the time

#77 David McKinney

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 14:48

The front-engined Stanton-Corvette's first race was Wigram January 1960
The rear-engined single-seater first appeared at the same meeting 12 months later
But if you want to define 'F5000' as any rear-engined single-seater (which I wouldn't :) ) you can't overlook the 1952 McMillan Special which had a Mercury V8 in the back

#78 bradbury west

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 16:05

Not forgetting, conceptually, Chris Summers' car.
Roger Lund

#79 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 20:47

And IIRC the Cooper owned by Austin Miller had something large in it by 1960...

No flathead, it was a modern V8 with overhead valves. Conceptually, this would be the best so far in the list of claimants for the 'first FA/F5000' race, surely? Not that the Scarab was far behind.

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#80 Jerry Entin

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 13:38

Posted Image
Gus Hutchison in the Rex Ramsey built ASD
This is at Ontario for the Questor Race and that is Denis Hulme coming up on Gus.
photo lent site Gus Hutchison collection.

#81 Richard Young

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 19:21

Conceptually.....didn't Chris Summers have an old leaf spring Cooper with a Chev in the back before the Lotus 24 ?
I always thought of the Kincraft as the first 'true' F5000 inasmuch as it was designed from the outset to take a big bore V8......

#82 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 20:58

Yes, for the 1962 season, he, John Farley and Jim Thornton refitted the old Cooper with a Chevrolet V8 engine out of a Bel Air.

Chris Mason says it was a 4.4-litre which would suggest a mid-1950s 265 ci 'small block' but it is often referred to in 1962 as a 4.6-litre which implies the then-current 283 ci engine also found in the Corvette.

Allen

#83 Graham Gauld

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 22:50

Ricky
You mentioned Chris Summers and his Cooper Chev. Here is a colour shot I took of the car at Rest and be Thankful hill climb around 1956

Posted Image

#84 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 06:05

I think that's the Farley Special, Graham, not the F2-based Cooper-Chevrolet

#85 Ted Walker

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:53

Yes Farley Special. I think the Cooper Chev was destroyed by John Harper at Mallory Pk when the engine fell out at high speed.

#86 bradbury west

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 07:59

So, was Reg Phillips' device the Fairley Spl? Different altogether
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#87 David McKinney

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 09:16

Yes, different cars and AFAIK no relation
I also think there were more than one Fairleys (and possibly more than one Farley)

#88 bradbury west

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 22:01

I always associate Reg Phillips' car with an FWB
RL

#89 bradbury west

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 19:46

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Yes, for the 1962 season, he, John Farley and Jim Thornton refitted the old Cooper with a Chevrolet V8 engine out of a Bel Air.

Chris Mason says it was a 4.4-litre which would suggest a mid-1950s 265 ci 'small block' but it is often referred to in 1962 as a 4.6-litre which implies the then-current 283 ci engine also found in the Corvette.

Allen


Looking for something else I came across this thread on Chris Summers.....impressive. Scroll down for the obit and list of results.
http://forums.autosp...ight=Whitchurch
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#90 T54

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:40

One for Jerry Entin:

Posted Image

:)

#91 Jerry Entin

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 00:17

Posted Image
Tom McBurnie with his LeGrand Mk 7 FA car
Tom said that John Middelton had helped him with this car. He has told me he had 2 front hub failures while running the car.
Posted Image
Tom McBurnie in action with his Mk 7 LeGrand

Tom McBurnie is now in the business of making Replica cars and his site is a must see. The quality of his cars is unbelievable and he has won many shows. Tom calls his business Thunder Ranch and the link is below:
http://www.thunderranch.com/index.html

T54: Thanks for putting up the picture of the LeGrand Sports racer.


photos -Tom McBurnie collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 20 November 2009 - 00:26.


#92 Ted Walker

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 07:47

Those nose fins do nothing for the BT8 were they fitted in period ?????????

#93 JtP1

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 23:14

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Ricky
You mentioned Chris Summers and his Cooper Chev. Here is a colour shot I took of the car at Rest and be Thankful hill climb around 1956

Posted Image


Not the first time Graham has mis-captioned a photo? I confess to not personally picking up on this one.

#94 bradbury west

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 23:42

[i]Originally posted by JtP1 Not the first time Graham has mis-captioned a photo? I confess to not personally picking up on this one. [/B]

But DMcK has already identified that, so your point is what, exactly? Graham has had the generosity and good grace to post a relevant photograph, as he has done previously, thereby contributing to the spirit and ethos of this Forum
Roger Lund.

#95 Jerry Entin

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 01:38

Posted Image
LeGrand Mk 7 F-5000 car.
This car was owned around 1980 by Bill Wiswedel of Holland, Michigan. It was a brand new chassis and had never had wiring installed or the motor. The color was a Metal flake Purple and gold. It was sold to Chuck Haines around 1981.

Posted Image
Bill Wiswedel's LeGrand Mk 7.
Here is the car with the body off.

photos lent site Bill Wiswedel collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 17 January 2010 - 12:43.


#96 Jerry Entin

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 21:58

Posted Image
Jerry Entin in the LeGrand Mk 7 at Santa Barbara in 1968



photo- Bob Schilling

Edited by Jerry Entin, 27 June 2010 - 02:44.


#97 Jerry Entin

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:00

Posted Image
Rex Ramsey's LeGrand at Bay Park New Zealand in 1968


photo: Gavin Evitt
copyright : Gavin Evitt 2010

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 April 2010 - 13:16.


#98 Frank S

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 16:11

Posted Image
Jerry Entin in the LeGrand Mk 7 at Riverside
This picture is from 1968 I started last in this race and won.


photo- Bob Schilling

Wracking my memory, but those airport buildings are not something I remember in Riverside's neighborhood.

#99 Jerry Entin

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 18:19

Frank: As usual you are right. This is from Santa Barbara. This was I believe the last time the airport course was run. It was 1968. I have corrected it above. I never noticed the hangers and I thought Bob Schilling had told me he took the photos at Riverside.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 April 2010 - 18:22.


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#100 Frank S

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 20:32

The trackside vegetation and half-buried tires certainly say "Riverside". Unless that's a separate photo or a nicely-captured mirage ...