John 'Spider' Webb
#1
Posted 20 October 2005 - 02:08
John Webb, supremo at Brands Hatch, was the main driving force behind F5000, and he was the man who first promoted Formula Ford, and 'celebrity' races including House of Lords versus House of Commons.
In an earlier time, Webb would have run a circus. He was a showman.
Most of John Webb's ideas came off. There were failures like Formula Talbot, which used methanol instead of petrol. It came about in the wake of an energy crisis and though Formula Talbot did not attract many entrants, and did not last long. nobody said it was a bad idea when it was announced.
I think that motor racing owes an enormous debt to John Webb.
In 1977 I arrived at Brands Hatch one night for a session with Tony Brooks and Innes Ireland. Back then you were lucky to get 60 or 70 people for an evening like that. The person putting out the chairs was Mrs Webb, a very pleasant lady.
I may be wrong, but I think that John may have been the first person in the UK to run trips to motor races abroad.
Let's share some John Webb memories. We could start with Goggomobil.
#3
Posted 20 October 2005 - 06:27
#4
Posted 20 October 2005 - 07:43
#5
Posted 20 October 2005 - 08:58
May have been one of his last.Started in 1983,just before Brands,Oulton &Snett.were sold to John Foulston.JW soon fell out with Nicola F.Originally posted by fausto
Was also Thundersports one of his "products"?
Re.air tours to races you may be right.I seem to remember 'Webbair' when I was still at school and could not afford such things. First I recall was 1956.By flying boat Southampton to Genoa for the Italian GP.
#6
Posted 20 October 2005 - 11:01
As for his great ideas, was FF2000 one of his ? On the other hand how about Formula First, Formula Forward, and MultiSports. And Formula Ford Turbo. All of these seemed to me to duplicate formulae that were already in situ, and hence diluted existing successful series. I guess there was some money changing hands tho' that may have encouraged him to develop and try to promote these...They were of course all single spec series, so pretty awful as far as I'm concerned.
Did he also have something against F2 for some reason ? Ironic then that the final ever F2 race was held at Brands.
And finally, he was a great supporter of F Atlantic as I recall, and didn't seem to favour F3 much. That was good enough for me at the time !!
Is there enough for a book Mike ?? Or if not, perhaps one detailing the 'Brands-mafia' thru' the 60s/70s/80s, with JW, Gerry, Lanfranchi, Whizzo, Whiting etc etc.
#7
Posted 20 October 2005 - 15:30
Surely it was one of the first of the 'alternative routes' that led to some talented drivers ending up in blind alleys and never making it to F1? But on this I may be mistaken.
#8
Posted 20 October 2005 - 15:49
The concept was that F2 was too expensive for a british series,as it did not attract spectators. The new for 1971,FIA F3 was underpowered.Webb wanted a cheaper F2 whereas what he created was a more expensive F3?Originally posted by D-Type
I've never really ynderstood the significance or appeal of F Atlantic. What did it offer over and above F3 and F2?
Surely it was one of the first of the 'alternative routes' that led to some talented drivers ending up in blind alleys and never making it to F1? But on this I may be mistaken.
#9
Posted 20 October 2005 - 16:49
I also resent the way he butchered all of his circuits when the fuel crisis hit in the early seventies.
Having said that, I fondly remember standing next to him on many a cold and wet October or November Sunday afternoon on the top row of Startline Grandstand at Brands (is it still there?). He was always in a fur coat with a huge cigar and a brandy. I was bloody freezing and penniless. He probably drove home in two Jags and I rode home through the pissing rain on my bike...
Edward
#10
Posted 20 October 2005 - 20:31
#11
Posted 20 October 2005 - 21:34
Originally posted by ian senior
So he came up with Formula F100 (the only racing formula to have been named after a tyre?)
The (inter) Continental Formula??
#12
Posted 20 October 2005 - 21:54
We like most folk would camp at Brands Hatch for the Grand Prix. On the first evening of the meeting the toilets were already overflowing in the campsite. We seem to remember a promises of better conditions for those camping.
My wife walked past several security guards to enter the clubhouse and found Mrs Webb amusing guests in a cocktail party. My wife, whose voice has never been quiet, informed Mrs Webb of the parlous state of the toilets causing silence amongst the guests. Unphased Mrs Webb offered my wife the use of the clubhouse toilets!
They were cleaned out and stopped overflowing..but as always there were never enough.
#13
Posted 21 October 2005 - 22:06
Originally posted by SEdward
I always thought that F5000 and Formula Atlantic were pointless exercises that simply got in the way of Formula 2 and provided an obstacle to its development in the UK.
Edward
You can't really mean that Edward!
#14
Posted 22 October 2005 - 20:28
It was a great idea, but it was not a great event. It may have become one but the following year came, among other things, the OPEC Oil Crisis.
The Rothmans 50,000 did not live up to expectation, but everyone was enthusiastic beforehand.
I would say that John Webb had a 65/35 success rate and that is pretty good especially given the fertility of his mind. I think the Aurora British F1 Championship was a Webb idea. I remember MAWP's headline after one of the early races, won by Tiff Needel in the Chevron F1 car, it was: 'Formula One, With Overtaking'.
Formula Turbo Ford was backed by Ford, to judge from the official launch. There was a snag, however, which was that the FTF car, based on a Reynard chassis, was slower than a regular Reynard FF2000 car.
You can't win them all, but John Webb perhaps did more than any other individual to change the face the face of motor racing. The first recognisable FF1600 car was created by Geoff Clarke of Motor Racing Stables, but MRS was based at Brands Hatch. Webb took up the idea and worked it and you cannot complain about FF1600 which spawned all other international 'one engine' formulae. I have not forgotten the DB 'Monomill' series, but that was only local and did not last long. though Jo Schlesser competed in it. FF1600 gave us Formula Vee and many a category since.
#15
Posted 22 October 2005 - 20:59
His previous exploits with the Webbair charter flights had really made his name - 'WebbScare' flights on all manner of oil-oozing piston-engined silver birds having proved an effective enema for many of my acquaintance. One famous WebbScare charter to Syracuse included most of the UK-based team and driver contingent, and it was during that flight that Innes Ireland took the controls whereupon a large proportion of the (mildly lubricated) passengers formed up in a large scrum who then ran up and down the main cabin aisle as a group - sending Innes into a paroxysm of trim and pitch corrections which greatly alarmed the professional crew before they managed to drag him out of the seat and regain formal control. Photos were also captured on that flight of a pretty talented hostie being held hostage across their laps by Ireland and (a later suitably embarrassed but rather proud) Jim Clark.
DCN
#16
Posted 23 October 2005 - 00:13
Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
.............
I think the Aurora British F1 Championship was a Webb idea. I remember MAWP's headline after one of the early races, won by Tiff Needel in the Chevron F1 car, it was: 'Formula One, With Overtaking'.
......................
Tiff Needell didn't won that race, he was second, no win for the Chevron F.1....
#17
Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:12
Correct,I was there,my first visit to Zolder,best ever result by that rubbish F1 car.Good tyre choice in damp track conditions credited by Tiff for that drive.Originally posted by fausto
Tiff Needell didn't won that race, he was second, no win for the Chevron F.1....
Anther thing organised by Webb was a trip to a Belgian F5000 race at Coxyde in 1969 for £5. I did not make that one as coach started from Brands at a very early hour!
#18
Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:51
That's a funny way to write Koksijde!Originally posted by Rob29
Anther thing organised by Webb was a trip to a Belgian F5000 race at Coxyde
#19
Posted 23 October 2005 - 15:26
A commercial pilot friend who was with me at the time described as effing dodgy and conjectured that the landing must have been effing dodgier
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#20
Posted 25 October 2005 - 11:29
John Webb would never be interviewed on tape, for radio, he claimed that he froze in front of a microphone and I can believe that. I freeze in front of a printed form. I cannot even read what is written, I freeze. I know, it's pathetic, especially from someone who has learned how to read obscure texts.
It doesn't matter that I go through agony when filling out an official form, but it is a real shame that John Webb did not commit his thoughts to tape.
Anyone remember the saloon car championship which was based on price? Tony Lanfranchi cleaned up the Castrol and Britax series in 1972 (29 races: 28 firsts, one second) by running a (Russian) Moskvich 412 in the £600 class. It remain Russia's finest hour in motor racing.
I started this thread to celebrate Webby (I never heard him called 'Spider', only 'Webby') and it has been suggested that there is a book there. I think there is, if John was the hook on which to hang other stories. A lot of heavy-duty villains lacked to relax at Brands Hatch. they were the south London mob made good who had bought big houses in Kent.
Someone mentioned Nick Witing, who was found dead in the boot of a car having upset his business associates - one version has Nick tied to two Range Rovers driving in opposite directions. My understand is that it was due to his taking more than his agreed share from the sale and distribution of nasal highballs and that people involved in the Brinks-Mat bullion robbery were among his business associates.
The geographical location of Brands Hatch has always meant that it has attracted some interesting people and I have no doubt that Webby has many an interesting tale to tell. I don't thik much escaped his attention and it was his attention to detail which made Brands Hatch such a great experience.
#21
Posted 17 November 2005 - 18:52
#22
Posted 17 November 2005 - 19:27
Not if you're French it isn't.Originally posted by scheivlak
That's a funny way to write Koksijde!
#23
Posted 17 November 2005 - 20:36
Yes she was. And I liked her too; she was (and I'm sure still is) great company.Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
DCN seems to be soft on Mrs Webb... She was an important part of Brands Hatch.
Pity she found herself on the receiving end of the back of a certain person's hand the way she did.
#24
Posted 18 November 2005 - 16:13
I'll concede that about half of John's ideas did not work out, but he had more original ideas than anyone else in motor racing. The half which did catch one makes impressive reading.
#26
Posted 18 November 2005 - 16:43
#27
Posted 18 November 2005 - 16:48
Originally posted by Gary C
OK, I'm going to HAVE to ask..................who are the two guys in the Loti??
Stan Elsworth and Jim Endruweit, I think.
#28
Posted 18 November 2005 - 16:54
#29
Posted 18 November 2005 - 19:32
#30
Posted 18 November 2005 - 20:02
Originally posted by RWB
I can't recall whether it came before WebbAir, but does anyone else remember the Connaught Grand Prix Car Club? John Webb started the club as a last ditch effort to save Connaughts. He also edited the club magazine "Grand Prix" which ran to just four editions, the first of which was dated April 1957. The club ran its own charter flights to GPs and I think perhaps these were the inspiration for WebbAir. I struggled to find 10/6 (53p) to join the club but despite my help the last "Grand Prix" in August 1957 confirmed Connaught's demise.
Robert.....Interesting. I know nothing of the Connaught Grand Prix Car Club...but welcome to TNF. You must start a "Goodwood History" thread?
#31
Posted 18 November 2005 - 22:20
By the middle of February 2,500 membership forms had been requested and 500 had been returned, with some £500.
In April the first issue of the journal was published. It featured the Syracuse Grand Prix and Q and A with Rodney Clarke.
In June, following Connaught's withdrawal from racing, john Webb issued a statement saying that the club would continue as before with the exception that new members would not be enrolled.
#32
Posted 19 November 2005 - 19:39
Roger - I'd forgotten the stamps but I do remember the pin badge with the Connaught emblem. I'm still sad that mine disappeared when we moved house decades ago.
#33
Posted 25 November 2005 - 13:52
#34
Posted 02 December 2010 - 14:33
Should there be a choice early 70's would be good ?
Thanking you in anticipation :-)
#35
Posted 02 December 2010 - 16:41
Stan Elsworth and Jim Endruweit, I think.
It certainly is Stan and Jim . Could also be a young Dick Scammell behind "Stans" car.
I found the monst Ominous thing about John Webb was his long drab overcoats and raincoats .
#36
Posted 02 December 2010 - 18:50
Yes he brought us FFord, F5000, a bold attempt at "Indianapolis" style qualifying at the 1969 Race of Champions..but then there was Sports2000, the attempts to turn female sports persons into racers and other stunts like Radio 1 Fun days. Also, whilst he may not have been totally responsible, who can ever forget the taste of a Minter's "ham"burger?
#37
Posted 02 December 2010 - 18:54
I have been scouring the Intelweb and TNF for a couple of hours trying to find a photograph of John Webb, all I found was a photo of his aeroplane taking off at Oulton, for a man who was so influential it would appear there are none, can anyone help out ?
Should there be a choice early 70's would be good ?
Thanking you in anticipation :-)
There was an article on John Webb in Motorsport a few years ago. If I can find some time I'll try and dig it out.
#38
Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:40
Hmm..John Webb
Yes he brought us FFord, F5000, a bold attempt at "Indianapolis" style qualifying at the 1969 Race of Champions..but then there was Sports2000, the attempts to turn female sports persons into racers and other stunts like Radio 1 Fun days. Also, whilst he may not have been totally responsible, who can ever forget the taste of a Minter's "ham"burger?
Don't forget FF2000, Formula Talbot and Formula F100 as well as the Ford pick-up races!
#39
Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:00
There was an article on John Webb in Motorsport a few years ago. If I can find some time I'll try and dig it out.
December 2005, Alan, according to Dr LawrenceIn the December issue of Motor Sport, Simon Taylor has an interview with John Webb. It's pretty good for a piece only one page long. I think Webbie (I never heard him called 'Spider') deserves more, but one page is better than none.
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#40
Posted 03 December 2010 - 10:31
For completenes Mike, FF1600 did not actually give us Formula Vee.
#41
Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:42
Cheers
#42
Posted 03 December 2010 - 17:03
Brands Hatch: The Definitive History of Britain's Best-loved Motor Racing Circuit by Chas Parker, J H Haynes & Co Ltd (24 Jan 2008)
#43
Posted 03 December 2010 - 18:26
I have been scouring the Intelweb and TNF for a couple of hours trying to find a photograph of John Webb, all I found was a photo of his aeroplane taking off at Oulton, for a man who was so influential it would appear there are none, can anyone help out ?
Should there be a choice early 70's would be good ?
Thanking you in anticipation :-)
Here's all I found... http://forix.autospo.../8w/bsp-86.html
Edited by MCS, 03 December 2010 - 18:27.
#44
Posted 03 December 2010 - 20:05
Here's a nostalgic query for anyone who grew up in the UK in the 1960s listening to those gloriously irreverent and life-affirming offshore pirate radio stations:
Last week I spent a fascinating day in Spain with former circuit supremo John Webb, who has lived there with his wife Angela in retirement for over 20 years since the Foulston debacle. At the age of nearly 80 he is a mine of stories and controversial views, which will be the subject of an upcoming "Lunch With..." in Motor Sport.
Simon Taylor[/quote]
New article on the horizon
PAR
#45
Posted 03 December 2010 - 21:37
#46
Posted 03 December 2010 - 23:01
#47
Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:38
There are three photos of him in Chas Parker's book referred to above, two being from his own collection and one (on page 10) credited to LAT.I was wondering if any TNFer's had actually taken a photograph of Mr Webb, if not I'll try LAT :-)
Edited by Alan Cox, 04 December 2010 - 13:35.
#48
Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:46
Amazingly, the internet seems to be remarkably devoid of photos of John Webb. Having done a Google image search, only one appears and that is a poor-quality newspaper scan http://forix.autospo.../8w/bsp-86.html
There are, however, three photos of him in Chas Parker's book referred to above, two being from his own collection and one (on page 10) credited to LAT.
Am I still on your "Ignore" list?!!
(See post #43)
#49
Posted 04 December 2010 - 13:35
#50
Posted 04 December 2010 - 14:39
(No photo credit given. I enlarged a fairly small image.)
In that book (published in 1981) John Webb is described as "50-year-old managing director of Motor Circuit Developments and the four MCD circuits" who "is based at Brands Hatch. One of the most influential men in motor racing, he has been largely responsible for the commercialisation of British motor racing from the 1960s. He was partly behind the introduction of Formula Ford and other categories such as Formula 5000, Formula Atlantic and Sports 2000."